speaking of tips: arrested for not paying

[RACER X]

news local-beat Couple Busted for Refusing to Pay Tip
Patrons claim service was so bad, they had to get napkins and silverware for themselves
By DAVID CHANG
Updated 12:20 PM EST, Thu, Nov 19, 2009


If you’re frustrated by poor service at a restaurant, think twice before you decide to not tip. You may be in for a bit more than just a dirty look from the waiter.

"Nobody, nobody wants to be forced to pay a tip or be arrested for terrible service," Leslie Pope said when her happy hour ended in handcuffs.

Pope and John Wagner were hauled away by police and charged with theft for not paying the mandatory 18 percent gratuity totaling $16 after eating at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem, Pa. with six friends.

Pope claimed that they had to wait nearly an hour for their order and that she had to get napkins and silverware for the table herself.

“At this point I became very annoyed because I had already gone up to the bar myself to have my soda refilled because the waitress never came back,” Pope said.

After the $73 bill came, the group paid for food, drinks, and tax but refused to pay the tip. After explaining the bad service to the bartender in charge, Pope claimed he took their money and called police. The couple was handcuffed and placed in the back of a police car.

“I understand that, you know, we didn’t pay the gratuity, but it was a gratuity, it wasn’t something that was required,” said Wagner.

The owner admitted that the group waited unusually long for their food, but said the pub was extremely busy that night. He said managers offered to comp the food, a claim the couple denies ever happened.

“Obviously we would have liked for the patron and the establishment to have worked this out without getting the police involved,” said Deputy Police Commissioner Stuart Bedics.

Police charged them with theft since the gratuity was part of the actual bill. However, it is doubtful that the charges will hold up in front of a judge. The couple is scheduled to appear in court next month.

First Published: Nov 18, 2009 9:44 PM EST

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html

[CrazyKell]

newsflash

[101lifts2]

Well...the owner is a moron. The customer is king in a capitalisitc world. Now..over 16 bucks these people will never go there again and will most likely cause many many others to do the same.

I mean WTF is gratuity if it's forced on you? And wtf is the difference if 6 independant people come in or 6 at once? Another scam IMO.

[Rider]

Sounds like the restaurant manager is lying, if their food was comped their wouldn't have been a bill. If these people by some miracle get convicted, I will never eat at a restaurant that includes the tip in the bill for any reason.

[CrazyKell]

What happened to the other thread on this article? :confused:

[HurricaneHeather]

What happened to the other thread on this article? :confused:

It's in the black people not tipping thread.

[Kaneman]

Sounds like the restaurant manager is lying, if their food was comped their wouldn't have been a bill. If these people by some miracle get convicted, I will never eat at a restaurant that includes the tip in the bill for any reason.

All restaurants include 15% gratuity in the bill for parties are larger. Time to upgrade that kitchen, lol.

[shmike]

All restaurants include 15% gratuity in the bill for parties are larger. Time to upgrade that kitchen, lol.

Yeah but you can have it removed.

A gratuity is just that, as in not compulsory.

[Kaneman]

Yeah but you can have it removed.

A gratuity is just that, as in not compulsory.

Most of the time people don't even notice it...I never had any parties ask to remove it and have never asked myself so I dunno. Surely though if you told a manager your party got poor service they would immediately remove it. At most places anyway.

The 15% grat. is no scam, it goes straight to the server. Unless you got shitty service and they refused to remove it, then its a scam.

[z06boy]

Since they paid for the meal but not the tip that the owner would have just taken 15 % out and gave it to the server IF he really did offer to comp the meal. :idk: Sounds like he may end up losing a lot more than 15% of their tab for prosecuting.

[CrazyKell]

It's in the black people not tipping thread.
Doh! I knew I'd seen this before. Thanks.

[karl_1052]

Were they black?:lol

If the meal was comped then why would they have gotten a $73.00 bill?
The manager is telling the press this to save face.

[Rider]

All restaurants include 15% gratuity in the bill for parties are larger. Time to upgrade that kitchen, lol.

Or just don't eat in large groups. Problem solved.

[Homeslice]

I mean WTF is gratuity if it's forced on you? And wtf is the difference if 6 independant people come in or 6 at once? Another scam IMO.

Because people are more likely to cheat if they're in a group. Cowardice.

[Particle Man]

Anytime I've gotten shitty service and have a group large enough to merrit the "mandatory gratuity" I've called the manager over ahead of time and explained that the server was less than stellar and that the tip will reflect that. I have yet to have a problem.

Part of this story is missing on either the restaurant or the patrons' side

[Kaneman]

Or just don't eat in large groups. Problem solved.

lol, ok dude.

[Rider]

lol, ok dude.

I'm anti social so it makes that easy.

[Kaneman]

I'm anti social so it makes that easy.

Really? That's surprising dude, you seem like such a nice young man.

[Papa_Complex]

Really? That's surprising dude, you seem like such a nice young man.

"Quiet... Kept to himself... Never caused any trouble in the neighbourhood..."

[Rider]

Really? That's surprising dude, you seem like such a nice young man.

No, I hate people.. seriously. I have a handful of close friends and that's all I want/need. I'm a jackass to everyone else.

[Kaneman]

"Quiet... Kept to himself... Never caused any trouble in the neighbourhood..."

"He was really turning his life around"

No, I hate people.. seriously. I have a handful of close friends and that's all I want/need. I'm a jackass to everyone else.

Now, I thought I hated people. My old man even gives me shit about not wanting to be around people. I too have two good friends, my wife, and that's it. I don't go anywhere that people are packed into tight places (nightclubs, waterparks, etc.) But while my own hatred is passive because I don't give a shit, yours seem to be aggressive and scary.

Just to be safe, I'm sending Highway Patrol to confiscate your weapons.

[Rider]

"He was really turning his life around"



Now, I thought I hated people. My old man even gives me shit about not wanting to be around people. I too have two good friends, my wife, and that's it. I don't go anywhere that people are packed into tight places (nightclubs, waterparks, etc.) But while my own hatred is passive because I don't give a shit, yours seem to be aggressive and scary.

Just to be safe, I'm sending Highway Patrol to confiscate your weapons.

Blame the US government. It's the military that made me that way.

[Ineffable]

This has happened to me before and I just came across this article thought everyone might have some comments.

Couple arrested for not paying tip (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html)

When I was living in Houston a bunch of my friends and I went out to Baker Street Pub and Grill in the Woodlands. We went there pretty often and a lot of the other guys had complained about the bills being way to high. I marked it up to them drinking to much and forgetting what they ordered. So this night I decided to keep a running tab on my phone of everything we ordered. After a night of heavy drinking everyone except myself (DD) was pretty intoxicated some waitress (notice I didn't say THE waitress) brings us our bill. If memory serves it was somewhere in the neighborhood of $930 which honestly wasn't unusual for us when we went out. I thought it was strange she brought it over since we had been ordering drinks all night at the bar on a tab. I started looking over the receipt and I noticed several drinks we didn't order and a 15% gratuity added. When I asked the bar tender about it he said that the waitress came and got the drinks in question for us. We were all sitting at the same table that night and not once did we ever see the waitress nor did she ever bring drinks over. I knew exactly what was ordered because I was the drink bitch that night to monitor what was spent since we were using the company card. I asked to speak with the manager and told him the situation, I spoke with him for about 20 minutes and the waitress flat out lied and said she had been serving us, direct quote, 'hand and foot' all night. He said the bill stands and that he stood by his waitress (which I can understand, give him a + for being a good boss) however I told him that at the LEAST we will go ahead and pay for the 80 or 90 dollars in drinks we didn't order but we were NOT going to pay the 15% gratuity (around 120 dollars) because like I said we had been ordering at the bar and tipping the bar tender in cash which he confirmed.

The manager called the cops and after everything was explained one of the officers pulled me outside and even said that they get this all the time here and there is nothing they can do about it. So to make a long story short we paid the bill then were banned (which was dumb on there part since we spent around 3k a week there between the 10 of us) so we told the manager to fuck off, gave the bartender a $50 went home and canceled the charge on the card.

I think the whole forced tip on the receipt is BS, I understand that some people don't tip or tip crappy but I have noticed when a restaurant puts it on the bill then the service goes down because the waiter/waitress knows they are going to get a tip regardless.

[Ineffable]

Guess this is a re-post, just saw it in the News Desk. Sorry :tremble:

[Smittie61984]

I mean WTF is gratuity if it's forced on you? And wtf is the difference if 6 independant people come in or 6 at once? Another scam IMO.

I've only seen gratuity added to large parties which I do understand and is always explained ahead of time.

I bet the unions are behind these mandatory tips. Then people wonder why businesses are moving south or out of the country.

[Kaneman]

I bet the unions are behind these mandatory tips. Then people wonder why businesses are moving south or out of the country.

:lol: No dude, no.

[Smittie61984]

:lol: No dude, no.

You think not? Come on, they're neighbors to a state that won't let you pump your own gas because they want to save some dumbass' job, you think that a union strong state like Pennsilvania won't have laws that protect "servers"?

[tommymac]

"He was really turning his life around"

And he was an aspiring rapper, oh wait thats the news articles up here :lol:

Tom

[Kaneman]

You think not? Come on, they're neighbors to a state that won't let you pump your own gas because they want to save some dumbass' job, you think that a union strong state like Pennsilvania won't have laws that protect "servers"?

I know not. Shitty people that don't tip 15-20% for good service are the one and only reason gratuity is added on to large parties. Its the servers choice at most restaurants to add that on at the register when they print the ticket. If you're serving a table that you think may not tip well, you add it on. Its a gamble...

[Tmall]

But there is no obligation to pay it. Unless she told you before you ordered that you would be subject to a "have more than 4 friends" tax.

[tommymac]

But there is no obligation to pay it. Unless she told you before you ordered that you would be subject to a "have more than 4 friends" tax.

A lotof places here have it posted on a sign in the restaurant, but these are also the fridays/holuihan type places that will get a lot of younger groups in there who will order up a ton of stuff and leave a dollar tip regardless.

Sadly I had a group of friends who did that and left others to pay for a chunk of the bill. I would have to fork over like 40 bucks for a burger and some beers because other jackasses in my group wouldnt even pay thier share, and a few times I paid more just ot leave a decent tip if the server was good.

Tom

[Kaneman]

But there is no obligation to pay it. Unless she told you before you ordered that you would be subject to a "have more than 4 friends" tax.

Its part of the bill dude, you gotta pay. If you got shitty service you have to take it up with the manager and try to get it removed...which I can't imagine being a problem at 99% of all restaurants.

[Tmall]

:lol: I don't know what you don't understand. They can't add things to your bill because they feel like it.

I don't know what planet you live on, but unless you are made aware that you will be charged extra, you can't be held accountable for it.

Even if the police arrest you, it doesn't mean you're guilty, it means they've responded to a complaint and charged you. This does not equal guilt.

[Kaneman]

:lol: I don't know what you don't understand. They can't add things to your bill because they feel like it.

I don't know what planet you live on, but unless you are made aware that you will be charged extra, you can't be held accountable for it.

Even if the police arrest you, it doesn't mean you're guilty, it means they've responded to a complaint and charged you. This does not equal guilt.

Its been made clear to you that there are numerous notifications that gratuity is added to parties of 8 or more. This has been going on for at least 10 years, its nothing new.

You guys crack me up though.

[Tmall]

You're the one saying that servers can charge you extra if they feel like it or not, and I crack you up?

[Kaneman]

You're the one saying that servers can charge you extra if they feel like it or not, and I crack you up?

Its just the way it is, and has been, for a long time. Or maybe its different up there, I've never been, but that's the norm at all restaurants here. I'm not sure if high-class joints do it or not, but all the Red Lobsters, Chilis, Applebees, etc. etc. do.

Its written right on the menu, the same place all the other prices are listed.

And yes you guys crack me up making such a big deal about it and acting like its some huge conspiracy to secretly tax you. Its not about that, its about servers trying to keep from being screwed by cheap bastards that don't tip.

[Tmall]

Seems more like the business not paying their employees a fair wage and expecting the customer to cover it.

As long as you work on a tip based system, you're subject to the whims of your customer.

Isn't that capitalism at its most basic? If you don't do a good job, or somebody doesn't think you deserve their money then you don't get it.

[Kaneman]

Yea I agree with that to a degree, but I think the tip system works better for servers from a customer service stand point than a fair wage would. Restaurant profit margins are thin as it is, by paying servers a fair wage, say $12-15 an hour (that's about what I made but I wasn't that good) they will be running in the red.

So they'll increase their menu prices to continue being profitable and you'll be paying much more for your meal. In addition to paying more for your meal, the service will be drastically changed. Imagine Dell or AT&T customer service reps serving you. Since they are now being paid a flat rate and do not get a monetary bonus for giving you stellar service you're going to get mediocre at best.

[Homeslice]

Look..........Tips have become commonplace. This has allowed restaurant owners to pay their waiters only $2.50/hr or whatever it is now. That's been like that as long as I've been alive. Why would you, a business owner, pay them more than that, when they make an additional $10-40 an hour in tips?

Nobody is saying tips should be forced........But it's your respeonsibility to talk to someone if you don't feel like tipping. 99% of the time they'll agree with you. The only reason this particular story made the news was because that owner was the one in a million who didn't.

[Tmall]

I disagre yet again Kane.

If they were paid a fair wage, and we paid more for our food, then bad service would directly effect the bottom line of the employer. If I don't like the service, I go elsewhere and restaurant owner loses money. There for, they would hire competent staff to do the job as well, they would take more of an interest in the quality of their employee.

[Kaneman]

I disagre yet again Kane.

If they were paid a fair wage, and we paid more for our food, then bad service would directly effect the bottom line of the employer. If I don't like the service, I go elsewhere and restaurant owner loses money. There for, they would hire competent staff to do the job as well, they would take more of an interest in the quality of their employee.

For what restaurants would be willing to pay servers there wouldn't be enough quality servers to go around and you wouldn't really have a choice. As I said, imagine Dell customer service being your server and you'll get the idea of who will be left in the restaurant industry. Good servers make far more than restaurants could or would pay. Performance based pay works, especially in the restaurant industry.

Personally, I really enjoy going out to eat and I enjoy getting good service.

What is a fair wage to you? What do you think restaurants could realistically afford to pay their servers?

[Tmall]

You can't compare dell customer service to a waitress. Dell can give you bad service because they already have your money. Any extra they give you is a loss to them. bad customer service may lose them a repeat customer, but they still already have a bunch of your money.


Keep in mind, dell was known to have great service when they came out, and they were a huge name. Now? I don't know anybody who has one. Maybe the free market decided for them that they made a bad decision by deviating from what made them popular to begin with?

[Tmall]

I don't know, nor do I care what if a fair wage to them.

All I know is, I decide where my money goes. Not my server. If I don't want to tip, I don't. I do a solid 99% of the time. But, that is my choice. And it will always be my choice.

[Kaneman]

You can't compare dell customer service to a waitress. Dell can give you bad service because they already have your money. Any extra they give you is a loss to them. bad customer service may lose them a repeat customer, but they still already have a bunch of your money.


Keep in mind, dell was known to have great service when they came out, and they were a huge name. Now? I don't know anybody who has one. Maybe the free market decided for them that they made a bad decision by deviating from what made them popular to begin with?

A restaurant already has your business once you walk in as few people actually get up and leave a restaurant. I'm not saying that your breed of "fair wage" servers would shit in your food in front of you, I'm saying you will not be getting stellar service at the vast majority of restaurants because there is no motivation to go above and beyond. They will put just enough effort into it to keep you from leaving.

Whereas now they really have to work for that money. Some servers make more than some college grads ever dreamed, and they do it by being good at their profession and busting their ass.

So again, what is a fair wage to you?

[Kaneman]

I don't know, nor do I care what if a fair wage to them.

All I know is, I decide where my money goes. Not my server. If I don't want to tip, I don't. I do a solid 99% of the time. But, that is my choice. And it will always be my choice.

I posted before I saw that, my bad.

Well, you really only decide where a certain percentage of your money goes, but that's an entirely different conversation. And if you don't want to tip that's ok, so long as you got shitty service. A tip at a restaurant is only somewhat of a choice. You are in fact fully expected to tip if your service was up to par, and I'm sure you do.

But your, "I don't know, I don't care" argument doesn't quite work out. If you are advocating changing the entire pay system for restaurants in North America because you think there is a better way then it seems you should have some idea of where to go to support your argument. Otherwise its just hot air.

[Tmall]

Really? Do you have a plan for everything you disagree with? Should I start asking what your plan is every time you disagree with something?


What is your taser plan? You disagree with the procedure the entire police force uses, well what's YOUR plan? See how silly that sounds? You don't need a plan to disagree, you just need a contrary opinion.

[Kaneman]

Really? Do you have a plan for everything you disagree with? Should I start asking what your plan is every time you disagree with something?


What is your taser plan? You disagree with the procedure the entire police force uses, well what's YOUR plan? See how silly that sounds? You don't need a plan to disagree, you just need a contrary opinion.

We're getting way off track here, but I understand where you're coming from. I was just enjoying the tip debate, and in saying I wanted to hear your alternate plan I was making the point that the tip system in place is the best system for the results those that pay for a $50 dinner are looking for.

However, as far as Taser goes, citizens need to hold their police depts accountable and ensure that their local PD's mentality is one of service and respect to its citizens and not us against them whatever we say goes. The taser itself is a wonderful tool that I would like to see every law enforcement official in the country equipped with if they so desire. I believe in some cases the Taser saves lives (not that I care) and furthermore protects the officer who can once again go home to his family because of it.

My problem with the Taser is that it allows bully policemen who only got into the job to dominate those they consider below them complete control without fear of punishment. One could argue that a firearm does the same thing, but in killing someone solely because they did not immediately heed an officer's order brings far more scrutiny than a Taser does. Therefore it allows the officer to get away with being a cocksucker when he's dealing with the general public.

So how do you get people to hold their PD's accountable right? Well that's a far larger issue that seeps into every issue we currently have in this country. It comes down to a populace that is educated about its local and federal government and actually gives a shit. It means thinning out rampant stupidity.

So how do you thin out rampant and expanding stupidity and expansion of pop culture as a guideline for life that is taking over this country and the world? Again, do not fear Nickname, I have a plan. The Govt. is going to put your tax dollars to use for once and enact the Kaneman Selective Breeding Program. It is not a law, and no one is obligated in anyway to participate so there is no infringement on freedoms. The Federal Government will write you a $5,000 check to be spayed or neutered. Those who are serious about having kids and raising a family will not take the money, those who would've just had a kid they don't care about by accident will render themselves sterile and immediately put the $5,000 back into the economy. Eventually the population will consist of a majority of people who care about something other than Jon and Kate and will be more vocal about holding their taxpayer funded services responsible (I.E. Police, City Council, Fed Gov, etc.)

Yes, I have many plans. And yes, I believe if you verbally disagree with something you should be familiar with an alternative you believe will work better, that's the whole point of disagreeing.

[the chi]

Good story tho...merging with other thread...

[tommymac]

Good story tho...merging with other thread...

Linking threads together is a gift. :lol: takes true postwhoring talents to do that

[Homeslice]

My problem with the Taser is that it allows bully policemen who only got into the job to dominate those they consider below them complete control without fear of punishment. One could argue that a firearm does the same thing, but in killing someone solely because they did not immediately heed an officer's order brings far more scrutiny than a Taser does. Therefore it allows the officer to get away with being a cocksucker when he's dealing with the general public.
.

Truth, especially given that most police forces do a piss-poor job of screening out bad personalities.

But of course, most people would never bother speaking up about cops, because they are afraid of seeming "unpatriotic" and "un-macho"

[Smittie61984]

I know not. Shitty people that don't tip 15-20% for good service are the one and only reason gratuity is added on to large parties. Its the servers choice at most restaurants to add that on at the register when they print the ticket. If you're serving a table that you think may not tip well, you add it on. Its a gamble...

Six people are a large party? Also were they informed from the beginning that there would be mandatory gratuity added. Infact the way the article worded it they made it sound like when purchasing food from a restaurant that a tip is mandatory as in it's a law. That kind of bugs me despite dipshits who don't tip even with good service bug me even more.

If they were informed before that a gratuity of X% would be added and then they didn't pay, then I'd want them arrested with a good tasering so others will learn.

[the chi]

Linking threads together is a gift. :lol: takes true postwhoring talents to do that


Why thank you sir. I do my best. :lol:

[Tmall]

Seems like the only logical step for this therad to take..

Brb, going to lay my bike down..

[Rangerscott]

Good thing I dont eat at sit downs that many times a year.