Which scenario breeds the better rider?

[tached1000rr]

Just trying to facilitate some discussion as always:

Okay these are some "generalizations" so use your own frame of reference to guide you. Which scenario below would you say would result in a more skilled rider?

A) Riding a cruiser say 25,000 miles then going to a sportbike?

B) Riding a sportbike for 25,000 miles then going to a cruiser?

And just for extra credit:

C) Riding a harley for 150 miles and going back to a bike:lol:

[101lifts2]

Miles are not really relevant, but how you used the motorcycle. I would say a track rider who commutes on a bike regulary is a more experienced rider overall than only a track rider or only a commuter. BUT...since you put a cruiser first (which most likely never seen a track), I'll say choice B.

[Homeslice]

Depends how big the cruiser is. If it's some 800-lb monster, the rider will probably spend all that time chicken-footing it around, learning almost nothing.

[derf]

I dunno, there are some folks out there who can throw down on a cruiser

[Homeslice]

I dunno, there are some folks out there who can throw down on a cruiser

because they started on a dirtbike when they were like 5

in fact that should have been the #1 choice in your survey

[racedoll]

because they started on a dirtbike when they were like 5

in fact that should have been the #1 choice in your survey

I was going to say dirt bike riders seem to make a pretty good rider overall. But what the hell do I know.

[ericr]

In reality it'll be the guy that is willing to explore the limits of whatever bike he's on and has the skill to use it. Yes a sportbike is more capable but if all the rider does is run fast on the straights and cruise the main drag... There are a lot of sportbike riders out there that can only outrun me on a straight.

I'd agree with Homeslice, the one that started on dirt at 5 and never quit riding ;)

[tached1000rr]

For what it's worth, I intentionally left dirt bikes and riders off. I fall in that category of starting out early as a kid on dirt bikes so I agree with that school of thought.

[Particle Man]

Just riding, period. The learning curve from one type of bike to another depends on the rider IMO

[Gas Man]

I'm going with riding a sportbike then a cruiser...

[Trip]

Just riding, period. The learning curve from one type of bike to another depends on the rider IMO

I'm going with this one. It's more about rider goals/ability vs where you start.

[z06boy]

From the choices given I'll go with Option B.

[pauldun170]

Option B.

Not to say that there are not some excellent cruiser riders out there....

[karl_1052]

Sportbike then cruiser.

I have ridden with a guy on a Maurader 800, and he could keep up to anyone on a sportbike up to about 100mph in the turns.(his bike would not go much faster)

[No Worries]

I think it depends more on the rider's location. If someone lived in the middle of Kansas, they may never ride uphill, downhill, or around a curve.

[neebelung]

Miles are not really relevant, but how you used the motorcycle. I would say a track rider who commutes on a bike regulary is a more experienced rider overall than only a track rider or only a commuter.

Yup. <--- See, I didn't say "this," Kell :nee:

Seat time is important, but VARIETY of the types of miles ridden while in the seat is what makes a well rounded rider, IMO.

[Fleck750]

I think it depends more on the rider's location. If someone lived in the middle of Kansas, they may never ride uphill, downhill, or around a curve.

Hey, I resemble that remark. :poke:

But having lived in the Ozarks, I do know what a curve is, and I miss them. :bash:

[Fleck750]

I think those that have spent time on both bikes make the best riders.

Having rode both, I can say that my skills are much better than if I had just stayed on a cruiser.

[Mr Lefty]

Miles are not really relevant, but how you used the motorcycle. I would say a track rider who commutes on a bike regulary is a more experienced rider overall than only a track rider or only a commuter. BUT...since you put a cruiser first (which most likely never seen a track), I'll say choice B.

interesting... I'd agree with you but what are we talking about... are we talking about the better STREET rider? or the better RIDER?

I mean riding on the street takes more than just being able to handle your machine well. if someone who rides track day in and out... goes to the street... with no street experience... they're gonna be in for a rude awakening the first time they get into traffic. they're not gonna be watching the right places to give them an advantage (ie watching drivers movements in the car)

I agree as far as handling the bike... a track rider will be better... that's why we go to the track... to eliminate all the other distractions.

back to the original question:

I don't think one will lead to a better rider over the other... the bikes are so different... I mean you can't even say that the cruiser would be more forgiving to learn to ride on... as changing to a sport bike... that throttle is way different... :idk:

maybe someone who's swapped back and forth would have better input.

[101lifts2]

^^^Yeah he needs to further define better...better could mean no accidents, ability to go around cones, do figure 8's, lap times at a track etc. etc.

To me a better rider is the one who knows to handle a motorcycle under all conditions.

[Smittie61984]

To me a better rider is the onr who knows to handle a motorcycle under all conditions the best.

That's what I believe too.

Personally I think if you can handle say a Harley which is heavy and not great at braking or handling and then you go to a more advanced and nimble sportbike they would fair better (once they get use to the bike). A sportbike rider who gets a cruiser may not recognize some dangers that a seasoned cruiser rider would (such as braking earlier).

But I think a lot is seat time in different conditions. I feel I'm a fairly decent rider being I ride rush hour interstate traffic, downtown Atlanta, twisties of the mountains, straights of south georgia, SUV dodging of the suburbs, dodging of deer in the out suburbs and country, all weather and just about any condition you could imagine for the street (including some offroad time on my bike). And I've done it without crashing (of course that could change today) despite many near misses and probalby 20k miles in 2 years of riding.

[Antwanny]

in general B but exceptions for everything. I personally think dirt riding first makes you bettuh than all of these.

[FT BSTRD]

There was actually a study on this. I'll see if I can find it.

The conclusions of the study were that it was more dangerous for riders to switch from a sportbike to a cruiser than to switch from a cruiser to a sportbike.

The reasoning was that the performance envelope of a sportbike is much broader than a cruiser. A cruiser rider has mentally locked in stopping distances, corner entry speeds, and traction variables for their particular bike. A sportbike's performance envelope exceeds these locked in variables.

A sportbike rider also has mentally locked in shorter stopping distances, higher corner entry speeds, and better traction variables compared to the performance envelope of a cruiser.

The end result is that a sportbike rider is more easily able to accidentally exceed the perforance envelope of a cruiser than a cruiser rider is able to accidentally exceed the perfornace envelope of a sport bike.

[tached1000rr]

There was actually a study on this. I'll see if I can find it.

The conclusions of the study were that it was more dangerous for riders to switch from a sportbike to a cruiser than to switch from a cruiser to a sportbike.

The reasoning was that the performance envelope of a sportbike is much broader than a cruiser. A cruiser rider has mentally locked in stopping distances, corner entry speeds, and traction variables for their particular bike. A sportbike's performance envelope exceeds these locked in variables.

A sportbike rider also has mentally locked in shorter stopping distances, higher corner entry speeds, and better traction variables compared to the performance envelope of a cruiser.

The end result is that a sportbike rider is more easily able to accidentally exceed the perforance envelope of a cruiser than a cruiser rider is able to accidentally exceed the perfornace envelope of a sport bike.

Interesting and I can see their reasoning

[101lifts2]

There was actually a study on this. I'll see if I can find it.

The conclusions of the study were that it was more dangerous for riders to switch from a sportbike to a cruiser than to switch from a cruiser to a sportbike.

The reasoning was that the performance envelope of a sportbike is much broader than a cruiser. A cruiser rider has mentally locked in stopping distances, corner entry speeds, and traction variables for their particular bike. A sportbike's performance envelope exceeds these locked in variables.

A sportbike rider also has mentally locked in shorter stopping distances, higher corner entry speeds, and better traction variables compared to the performance envelope of a cruiser.

The end result is that a sportbike rider is more easily able to accidentally exceed the perforance envelope of a cruiser than a cruiser rider is able to accidentally exceed the perfornace envelope of a sport bike.

I agree with this 100%. Having been on sportbikes all my life, then taking friends cruisers for a ride you immediately see that the brakes suck, the thing drags hard parts at 20% lean angles and you cannot manuever all that well.

It is just easier to ride a lighter bike fast.

[OreoGaborio]

Depends on what you mean by "better"....

Safer?
or
More skilled?

If it's "safer" then I would probably say cruiser, then sportbike.
but
If it's "more skilled" then I would probably say sportbike, then cruiser.


But that would definitely be more of a TREND than anything else... definitely not the rule.

[FT BSTRD]

There were additional studies, all of this along the lines of safety, that took a closer look at accident rates for bikes.

The study looked at WHERE bikes are ridden vs. just how they are ridden and by whom.

Sport bikes tend to be ridden closer to urban areas where traffic is more dense.

Cruisers, particularly the most popular variant, touring bikes, tended to be ridden out of metropolitan areas where traffic is sparse.

Unfortunately, insurance companies and legislators lack any sort of common sense or imagination.

It's just easier to lable sport bikes as "unsafe" and cruisers as "safe" and legislate accordingly.


Strangely enough, rider skill plays very little into the thinking of what constitutes "safe".

I would much rather see a concentration on rider education.

[OreoGaborio]

I would much rather see a concentration on rider education.
Uhg... you & me both!

I asked my insurance agent (knowing it was a long shot) if there were any discounts for licensed racers, track day instructors or MSF RiderCoaches & she looked at me like I was a cute little kid asking a cute little question, like "If all the food here is from China, is the water from China too?"

Awww, that's adorable... but no.

(yes... I asked my parents that when I was like 5 years old... they thought it was adorable and proceeded to tell almost every waiter at almost every Chinese restaurant we went to that story until I was practically 15.)

[FT BSTRD]

Uhg... you & me both!

I asked my insurance agent (knowing it was a long shot) if there were any discounts for licensed racers, track day instructors or MSF RiderCoaches & she looked at me like I was a cute little kid asking a cute little question, like "If all the food here is from China, is the water from China too?"

(yes... I asked my parents that when I was like 5 years old... they thought it was adorable and proceeded to tell almost every waiter at almost every Chinese restaurant we went to that story until I was practically 15.)


You can't drive a fork lift without training, but somehow people fell like you can just buy a bike and you're good.

I recommend the MSF to ANYONE who will listen and nearly all people who won't.

My recommendation is not to embark on riding unless you plan to become a life long student of the art.

You can never know too much, and you can never know everything.

[OreoGaborio]

Amen! Preach on, Brutha Bastard! :)

[No Worries]

...I asked my insurance agent (knowing it was a long shot) if there were any discounts for licensed racers, track day instructors or MSF RiderCoaches & she looked at me like I was a cute little kid asking a cute little question, like "If all the food here is from China, is the water from China too?"


I took the Total Control advanced class and received a discount on my insurance. $1.70, that's 1 percent savings on my total bill. Plus, they didn't believe I took the class. I had to send them a copy of the certificate. I spent a half hour looking for it just to save less than $2. But the class was still worth it.

[OreoGaborio]

They offered a discount for having taken the MSF course (and yes you need to prove it with a copy of the completion certificate for auditing purposes), but as I've had my license for more than 6 years I was ineligible for that, as that alone brings your rate down.

I just thought it was funny there were no discounts for actually TEACHING this course :P

[Tmall]

Taking the course and teaching aren't very far off from the same skill set.

Parking lot safety and handling just aren't worth any kind of discount in my mind. ymmv

[Apoc]

The better riders are born, not bred. Better hand-eye, faster reflexes, ability to read ahead.

I've met people riding their whole lives who werent very good at it. I also know a guy who jumped off dirtbikes and onto a sportbike at 18, and could outride most lifelong riders straight away.

Balls have a lot to do with it too.

[Fleck750]

The better riders are born, not bred. Better hand-eye, faster reflexes, ability to read ahead.

I've met people riding their whole lives who werent very good at it. I also know a guy who jumped off dirtbikes and onto a sportbike at 18, and could outride most lifelong riders straight away.

Balls have a lot to do with it too.

May be patting myself on the back, but I resemble one of those people. This does not mean I think I'm better than most riders, just means riding came very easily to me.

If I was a few years younger and 8 inches taller, I really think I could wail on a sportbike. But being that I'm middle aged and short, I'll just have to be happy with having big balls. :D

[OreoGaborio]

Taking the course and teaching aren't very far off from the same skill set.
Ahhh, interesting point... Not sure if I totally agree but I understand what you're getting at.

But lets take rider skill out of the equation for a second & look at beliefs (for lack of a better word)
Just because one takes a safety course doesn't mean they BELIEVE in being a safe rider.
I see all too many riders (again, regardless of skill level) who have taken & completed the course & get that insurance discount, ride in a blatantly unsafe manner.

Teaching it however, you probably do.
I don't see too many MSF coaches riding crazy on the street.

Anyway, I hope that you would agree that in general, an MSF RiderCoach would be less likely to get into an accident than your average MSF BRC grad.
I just think that the folks that coach the course deserve a little discount as well. :)

[FT BSTRD]

I don't see too many MSF coaches riding crazy on the street.

Anyway, I hope that you would agree that in general, an MSF RiderCoach would be less likely to get into an accident than your average MSF BRC grad.
I just think that the folks that coach the course deserve a little discount as well. :)


I NEED to introduce you to Barker.

http://www.incorrect.org/coppermine/albums/buelltoberfest2008/Buelltoberfest_2008_10_05_1280_022.JPG

[OreoGaborio]

I NEED to introduce you to Barker.
Nice pic!

But that's not necessarily crazy... that's fun! :rockwoot: (wish I had some similar street pics to share, but all I have are pics from the track :( )



What I mean by riding crazy, in this case, is riding beyond their limits. I call that "stupid fast" :p

[dReWpY]

I NEED to introduce you to Barker.

http://www.incorrect.org/coppermine/albums/buelltoberfest2008/Buelltoberfest_2008_10_05_1280_022.JPG

that just reminds me of that day with you and chad and barker....


insert evil laugh....

[FT BSTRD]

that just reminds me of that day with you and chad and barker....


insert evil laugh....



Thank you Mr. Christmas Tree. :D

[dReWpY]

ahmen!

[Tmall]

Ahhh, interesting point... Not sure if I totally agree but I understand what you're getting at.

But lets take rider skill out of the equation for a second & look at beliefs (for lack of a better word)
Just because one takes a safety course doesn't mean they BELIEVE in being a safe rider.
I see all too many riders (again, regardless of skill level) who have taken & completed the course & get that insurance discount, ride in a blatantly unsafe manner.

Teaching it however, you probably do.
I don't see too many MSF coaches riding crazy on the street.

Anyway, I hope that you would agree that in general, an MSF RiderCoach would be less likely to get into an accident than your average MSF BRC grad.
I just think that the folks that coach the course deserve a little discount as well. :)


The only reason I would agree with this is because a msf coach would likely be riding for a few years before they start to teach.

Aside from shoulder checks, what did you learn at msf to make you a safer rider that isn't common sense? Even the shoulder checks are..

MSF teaches you very basic skills. And I agree with not giving discounts for it. Do you get a discount for your car for doing a parking lot course in it? If they were to take you on the street and give you real experience, then I would agree.

[karl_1052]

The better riders are born, not bred. Better hand-eye, faster reflexes, ability to read ahead.

I've met people riding their whole lives who werent very good at it. I also know a guy who jumped off dirtbikes and onto a sportbike at 18, and could outride most lifelong riders straight away.

Balls have a lot to do with it too.

On the street speed doesn't mean better. I would prefer safety over fast on the street.

[OreoGaborio]

The only reason I would agree with this is because a msf coach would likely be riding for a few years before they start to teach.

Aside from shoulder checks, what did you learn at msf to make you a safer rider that isn't common sense? Even the shoulder checks are..

MSF teaches you very basic skills. And I agree with not giving discounts for it. Do you get a discount for your car for doing a parking lot course in it? If they were to take you on the street and give you real experience, then I would agree.
Yeah, you're absolutely right about it being all common sense stuff. Street survival is 90% mental & a lot of it is stuff you think people would know already. I think you'd be surprised though, about how little of the overall riding population, especially people coming in and taking the course who have never ridden a motorcycle, actually think about all the mental lessons, the mental street survival stuff... the margin of safety, risk management, responsible riding, etc etc, really THINK about it & LIVE it most every time they get on a bike. I've even had some old veteran riders take the course after taking a long time off & say things like "wow, never though about ____ that way".

So to answer your question, I think a lot of what people get out of the MSF course is that intangible mental stuff.

And you're right, it'd be great to take students out on the street and teach them the stuff in real life, but unforuntately I think that would be virtually a logistical impossibility. :(

Anyway, I've only been coaching the course for a year so I'm still a rookie coach, but having gone through all of the training and having taught a few classes, it's amazing how much more there is to both the course and riding than meets the eye... I've learned SO much since my training back in March and I'm excited about how much more there is to learn still... not just about coaching the course, but my own riding, other people's riding, working with other coaches, coaching the students, and just the overall big picture of the "riding world" in general.

[/blabbering] :p

Skill wise, I completely agree with you, it only teaches you the basic stuff. And I see the training class insurance discount mainly as an incentive for taking the course... but I appreciate it as such, as I think the course is beneficial in one way or another for most everyone that takes it, even those that come in with some riding experience, because we do hit on that mental aspect of riding. How much of it actually sinks in though, that's a different story :p

And that brings me to the original point I was getting at (& I've gotten totally off the original topic here but I appreciate a good discussion on the subject!) is I still believe, when you look at the big picture, that your average MSF RiderCoach is still much less likely to get in an accident than a fresh out of MSF grad... not just because of physical skill, or because we've been riding a few years, but the mental experience and insight you get through coaching as well... and I think coaches deserve a little discount, too. :D

:whore2:

Okay, I'll shut up, now :D

[FT BSTRD]

Yeah, you're absolutely right about it being all common sense stuff. Street survival is 90% mental & a lot of it is stuff you think people would know already. I think you'd be surprised though, about how little of the overall riding population, especially people coming in and taking the course who have never ridden a motorcycle, actually think about all the mental lessons, the mental street survival stuff... the margin of safety, risk management, responsible riding, etc etc, really THINK about it & LIVE it most every time they get on a bike. I've even had some old veteran riders take the course after taking a long time off & say things like "wow, never though about ____ that way".

So to answer your question, I think a lot of what people get out of the MSF course is that intangible mental stuff.

And you're right, it'd be great to take students out on the street and teach them the stuff in real life, but unforuntately I think that would be virtually a logistical impossibility. :(

Anyway, I've only been coaching the course for a year so I'm still a rookie coach, but having gone through all of the training and having taught a few classes, it's amazing how much more there is to both the course and riding than meets the eye... I've learned SO much since my training back in March and I'm excited about how much more there is to learn still... not just about coaching the course, but my own riding, other people's riding, working with other coaches, coaching the students, and just the overall big picture of the "riding world" in general.

[/blabbering] :p

Skill wise, I completely agree with you, it only teaches you the basic stuff. And I see the training class insurance discount mainly as an incentive for taking the course... but I appreciate it as such, as I think the course is beneficial in one way or another for most everyone that takes it, even those that come in with some riding experience, because we do hit on that mental aspect of riding. How much of it actually sinks in though, that's a different story :p

And that brings me to the original point I was getting at (& I've gotten totally off the original topic here but I appreciate a good discussion on the subject!) is I still believe, when you look at the big picture, that your average MSF RiderCoach is still much less likely to get in an accident than a fresh out of MSF grad... not just because of physical skill, or because we've been riding a few years, but the mental experience and insight you get through coaching as well... and I think coaches deserve a little discount, too. :D

:whore2:

Okay, I'll shut up, now :D


There are some mechanical fundamentals taught in MSF that are not "common sense".

I can't tell you how many people are "still afraid of using the front brake". No one told them about the 70/30 rule.

I see people every day trying to turn their motorcycle by "turning the handlebars".

There are many riders I see every week with obvious procedural errors that an MSF course would have corrected.

Many riders I see couldn't "ride the box" if you held a gun to their heads.


I have no doubt that MSF provides better, safer riders.

[OreoGaborio]

I agree, a lot of the skill stuff is not common sense.

[Homeslice]

MSF is fine, but you get zero experience riding in traffic.

[Apoc]

On the street speed doesn't mean better. I would prefer safety over fast on the street.

Agreed, but I was talking about ability to handle a bike, throttle control, etc etc

[OreoGaborio]

MSF is fine, but you get zero experience riding in traffic.
Yeah, but I've still seen multi-vehicle accidents on the riding range, so that's gotta count for somethin, right? :lmao:

[FT BSTRD]

MSF is fine, but you get zero experience riding in traffic.


The MSF doesn't make you a "good" rider any more than passing your driver's test makes you a "good" driver.

Experience MUST be gained in the real world. That said, I do believe that a training course provides a better foundation to build those skills on than none at all.

[Tmall]

The MSF doesn't make you a "good" rider any more than passing your driver's test makes you a "good" driver.

Experience MUST be gained in the real world. That said, I do believe that a training course provides a better foundation to build those skills on than none at all.

I think a better comparison would be if you paid for drivers ed, and they took you round and round a parking lot, would you feel that your money was well spent?

I know the msf up here is 440 for the weekend. Drivers ed isn't that much more expensive, and you gain a lot of knowledge from drivers ed. How hard would it be to make something comparable?

[OreoGaborio]

Fat, well said. I couldn't agree more.


Tmall, I'm not saying you're not making a good point, it's definitely an interesting perspective,holds weight and something to think about... but driving school to riding school, they're like apples and oranges in many ways. It's a virtual impossibility to do many things in the MSF that they can do in driving school.

For starters, you can put dual controls in a car so the Instructor can take over in the event of an emergency.... Even if you did that on a bike, you can't put an instructor on the back of a motorcycle with a student. And the logistics of bringing motorcycle students out onto the street would be an absolute nightmare. A lot of these MSF GRADUATES don't even belong on the street after finishing the course, nevermind DURING the course. We tell them that accordingly and always, no matter who they are, suggest extended learning opportunities.

How long ago was it that you participated in an MSF class? I'll concede that the classroom portion is only 5 hours, but there's a LOT of knowledge packed into that as well. So if you're looking at the knowledge gained, I think the two schools are quite comparable.

[Tmall]

Fat, well said. I couldn't agree more.


Tmall, I'm not saying you're not making a good point, it's definitely an interesting perspective,holds weight and something to think about... but driving school to riding school, they're like apples and oranges in many ways. It's a virtual impossibility to do many things in the MSF that they can do in driving school.

For starters, you can put dual controls in a car so the Instructor can take over in the event of an emergency.... Even if you did that on a bike, you can't put an instructor on the back of a motorcycle with a student. And the logistics of bringing motorcycle students out onto the street would be an absolute nightmare. A lot of these MSF GRADUATES don't even belong on the street after finishing the course, nevermind DURING the course. We tell them that accordingly and always, no matter who they are, suggest extended learning opportunities.

How long ago was it that you participated in an MSF class? I'll concede that the classroom portion is only 5 hours, but there's a LOT of knowledge packed into that as well. So if you're looking at the knowledge gained, I think the two schools are quite comparable.

I did it two years ago.. I've been riding since I was a kid. And I wanted my license officially. It was the quickest way for me to do it. The waiting list for the written test was about 6 months. The msf was available at the start of the season.

[OreoGaborio]

Sounds good... I wanted to get an idea of your point of view.

I know a LOT has changed since I took it way back in 2001, but I'm not sure how much it's developed in the last 2 since you went through the program.

[FT BSTRD]

I think a better comparison would be if you paid for drivers ed, and they took you round and round a parking lot, would you feel that your money was well spent?

I know the msf up here is 440 for the weekend. Drivers ed isn't that much more expensive, and you gain a lot of knowledge from drivers ed. How hard would it be to make something comparable?


I think you are missing the point. Drivers ed has a very different intent than MSF.

MSF assumes you have people who already have their driver's license and understand the rules of the road. Driver's ed is mainly for people obtaining their driver's license for the first time. You MUST drive on the street for Driver's ed because the goal is to prepare you for release onto the road with zero practical experience.

As I'm sure you'll concede, operating a motorcycle is VERY different than operating a car. The MSF course is designed to teach those factors that are unique to motorcycles. How they work, best practices, unique mechanical attributes.

How would one practice panic stops in traffic?

How would one practice riding in the box on public streets?

Additionally, there is the issue of legality. You couldn't have 30 motorcycle riders riding someone else's motorcycles without a license on public streets.

For what can be done and what it offers, the MSF course is pretty damn good. It isn't the last word in rider education, but it's a really great start.

It's the first step in being a life long student of the art.

Or you could just borrow your buddy's bike, go down to the license place after you've ridden around in a parking lot by yourself and pass the test.

After you have your license, you don't really need to do any training.

[Tmall]

I think you are missing the point. Drivers ed has a very different intent than MSF.

MSF assumes you have people who already have their driver's license and understand the rules of the road. Driver's ed is mainly for people obtaining their driver's license for the first time. You MUST drive on the street for Driver's ed because the goal is to prepare you for release onto the road with zero practical experience.

As I'm sure you'll concede, operating a motorcycle is VERY different than operating a car. The MSF course is designed to teach those factors that are unique to motorcycles. How they work, best practices, unique mechanical attributes.

How would one practice panic stops in traffic?

How would one practice riding in the box on public streets?

Additionally, there is the issue of legality. You couldn't have 30 motorcycle riders riding someone else's motorcycles without a license on public streets.

For what can be done and what it offers, the MSF course is pretty damn good. It isn't the last word in rider education, but it's a really great start.

It's the first step in being a life long student of the art.

Or you could just borrow your buddy's bike, go down to the license place after you've ridden around in a parking lot by yourself and pass the test.

After you have your license, you don't really need to do any training.


And I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying.

My original point was and still is, that msf graduates do not deserve an insurance break for completing the course. And I do not feel that the instructors do either. It is not a special skill set. It teaches you the basics.

[OreoGaborio]

Hey, T. I know your post wasn't directed to me, but I'd still like to address the point that you're making if I may :)

I agree that what you learn/practice in MSF, for the most part, is not a SPECIAL skill set that you couldn't otherwise learn on your own. I think that's KIND of what you're founding your case on but in different words, but correct me if I'm wrong.

My "counter points" to that were:

Street survival is 90% MENTAL... only 10% skill.

I also believe that new riders that are MSF graduates are LESS likely to get in an accident than new riders that are non MSF graduates with similar riding experience.

And I also have a hunch (and I have no data to back it up) that MSF RiderCoaches are POSSIBLY less likely to get in an accident than non MSF RiderCoaches with similar riding experience. I'm not necessarily saying without a doubt that RiderCoaches deserve a discount, but it'd certainly be nice! :) and I don't know if I agree with you that it wouldn't be deserved if we did as we're doing what we can to make the roads safer for everyone.



I also think that the insurance discount is not solely a statement by the insurance companies saying that they think MSF grads are safer, but also an incentive to take the class. Those first time riders that take the class are, without a doubt, better off than learning from a friend or on their own.

If you don't think that justifies an insurance discount, well then so be it... I stated my case. I hold no grudges and I think this is a good discussion :)

[Tmall]

Hey, T. I know your post wasn't directed to me, but I'd still like to address the point that you're making if I may :)

I agree that what you learn/practice in MSF, for the most part, is not a SPECIAL skill set that you couldn't otherwise learn on your own. I think that's KIND of what you're founding your case on but in different words, but correct me if I'm wrong.

My "counter points" to that were:

Street survival is 90% MENTAL... only 10% skill.

I also believe that new riders that are MSF graduates are LESS likely to get in an accident than new riders that are non MSF graduates with similar riding experience.

And I also have a hunch (and I have no data to back it up) that MSF RiderCoaches are POSSIBLY less likely to get in an accident than non MSF RiderCoaches with similar riding experience. I'm not necessarily saying without a doubt that RiderCoaches deserve a discount, but it'd certainly be nice! :) and I don't know if I agree with you that it wouldn't be deserved if we did as we're doing what we can to make the roads safer for everyone.



I also think that the insurance discount is not solely a statement by the insurance companies saying that they think MSF grads are safer, but also an incentive to take the class. Those first time riders that take the class are, without a doubt, better off than learning from a friend or on their own.

If you don't think that justifies an insurance discount, well then so be it... I stated my case. I hold no grudges and I think this is a good discussion :)

I hold no grudges either. It's obviously all opinion.

[OreoGaborio]

Indeed... and in this case I don't think EITHER of our opinions even matter... it's what the insurance companies say that really counts! :p

[FT BSTRD]

And I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying.

My original point was and still is, that msf graduates do not deserve an insurance break for completing the course. And I do not feel that the instructors do either. It is not a special skill set. It teaches you the basics.


Insurance companies provide the same discount for driver's ed as they do for MSF.

I believe the insurance companies view ANY training better than none at all.


How effective an beneficial that training is is open to debate.

[the chi]

The MSF doesn't make you a "good" rider any more than passing your driver's test makes you a "good" driver.

Experience MUST be gained in the real world. That said, I do believe that a training course provides a better foundation to build those skills on than none at all.

Totally Agree with this statement.

FTR, not all states allow the insurance discounts for MSF or Drivers Ed, and I still couldnt ride a box if you held a gun to my head, and Ive been riding a few years now. (I think I can still do everything else I learned, but the box kicks my ass. :lol:)

[tached1000rr]

Good discussion which is al I wanted anyway. The discount No Worries received made it a moot point for him I'm sure.

[Fleck750]

Never have taken the MSF, what is this "box" you speak of?

[OreoGaborio]

it's a 20' x 60' rectangle that you have to ride a figure 8 in. Two consecutive U turns in either direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDspJm3OPpw

He actually uses the dotted line, which makes the box 24' x 60'. We use those dimensions first when practicing.
In the evaluation the 20' x 60' box is used.

[tached1000rr]

Where do you MSF instructors feel that the box comes into play on the street in the real world? So a guy/girl can ride the hell out of a bike in the box, there are not any boxes where I ride:poke:

[FT BSTRD]

Where do you MSF instructors feel that the box comes into play on the street in the real world? So a guy/girl can ride the hell out of a bike in the box, there are not any boxes where I ride:poke:

Clutch control, braking control, body position, proper steering, rider comfort with the bike, confidence in performing slow speed maneuvers, skill performing u-turns......

[karl_1052]

Where do you MSF instructors feel that the box comes into play on the street in the real world? So a guy/girl can ride the hell out of a bike in the box, there are not any boxes where I ride:poke:

You should ride by more high schools. lots of boxes there.:lol

[Fleck750]

You should ride by more high schools. lots of boxes there.:lol

Damn! Was just gonna say that. :lmao:

[Fleck750]

20 x 60? That's HUGE!!!

[tached1000rr]

You should ride by more high schools. lots of boxes there.:lol

Funny you mention that, cause I take my wife and daughters to the school parking lot to practice.:lol

[OreoGaborio]

Exercise 10 - Limited-Space Maneuvers.

1 Objective - To be able to maneuver in limited spaces
...
4 With riders near U-turn box, provide demo
- Maintain overall control
- Turn handlebars and counterweight
- Keep head and eyes up, and look through paths of travel
- Coordinate clutch and throttle actions
- Maintain a safety margin

5 Provide simulated practice
- Stress handlebar turn, motorcycle lean and counterweight
- Stress head turn.


That's all straight out of the range cards for that exercise.

Here's a bit of what it says in the RiderCoach handbook.

This exercise is designed to allow riders to develop their abilities in areas with limited maneuvering space. Although considered convenience skills, these maneuvers provide riders with additional practice time on basic skills within a practical context. The skill of handlebar turn/counter weighting is emphasized, an is introduced with simulated practice. Three exercises are provided: a U-turn box, an S-turn and a perimeter turn........ For the perimeter turn... this is to develop the skills associate with turning from a stop at an intersection....

It's one of my favorite exercises :) It can be very tricky for them at first and when the students finally start to get it right, it really builds confidence.