Touqe or Bhp

[mutley]

i love touqe better for getting out of corners but most off all is putting on the brakes hard putting engine under load and hold on its like a catapult love it , had a v12 jag auto that was fun in that about 300lb of torqe.

[Tmall]

Tq all the way. I don't need any more than 100hp. But, ill take as much tq as you can give me.

[OneSickPsycho]

Tq all the way. I don't need any more than 100hp. But, ill take as much tq as you can give me.

+1 for torque.

[was92v]

Like most people, I want it all. My new bike should satisfy both requirements. Enough torque to pull hard and enough HP to keep going when the torque curve starts dropping off.

[sherri_chickie]

You missed the "r" in torque. I read it as touque, what us Canadians call a winter cap. Puts a whole new spin on the thread...lol

[Apoc]

You missed the "r" in torque. I read it as touque, what us Canadians call a winter cap. Puts a whole new spin on the thread...lol

And in the winter, ill take a touque over horsepower!

[NONE_too_SOFT]

you can have fun with torque in your back yard, you need a track to really enjoy horsepower (legally).

[HRCNICK11]

HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252

They are just different ways of expressing the same thing.

[Tmall]

No they're not. Hp is a function of tq.
Hp is a way of expressing how much work the tq can do.

Hp is math, tq is the hand of god.

[karl_1052]

+1 for torque.

I am gay for torque too.

[HRCNICK11]

potato, potato, tomato, tomato!

All spining things have both they are the same expressed differently you can't have one with out the other. All be it at one or less RPM its real hard to express HP it is still there.

Both are a way to explain work. Torque is no more hand of God than HP is its just a way we explain work being done.

For the record I'll take reliable for the win. I don't care how the work is measured as long as its there when I ask for it.

To say one is better than the other is complete crap. Cause when taken to extreems both are nearly unusable.

Example a steam engine is known for a crap ton of torque (lots of HP also) and a F1 car is know for a crap ton of HP(also lots of torque too) but you can't mow your lawn with either.

[Apoc]

potato, potato, tomato, tomato!

All spining things have both they are the same expressed differently you can't have one with out the other. All be it at one or less RPM its real hard to express HP it is still there.


No, they arent the same at all. Torque and rpm are not a product of horsepower, horsepower is a product of torque and rpm. The first two are very real things, the last is an imaginary equation consisting of the two very real things..

[Tmall]

No, they arent the same at all. Torque and rpm are not a product of horsepower, horsepower is a product of torque and rpm. The first two are very real things, the last is an imaginary equation consisting of the two very real things..

Werd, it's like saying 45= 9 x 5. Therefore, 9 and 5 are equal.

[Apoc]

Therefore, 9 and 5 are equal.

Maybe if Lindsay Davidson is doing the math.

[HRCNICK11]

Harely/buell riders always defend toque as if you can grab hold of it.

It is a unit of measure, a unit of Torque can no more be held in your hand than can a unit of HP and is there for no more real. Its just a unit of measure expressed in a different way. Its just a unit used by humans to describe work. Normally foot/pounds but can also be Newton/meter or you can make up your own for the sake of the moment, like say ounces/meter.(oh how dare I mix 2 seperate systems of measure)

[Tmall]

Harely/buell riders always defend toque as if you can grab hold of it.

It is a unit of measure, a unit of Torque can no more be held in your hand than can a unit of HP and is there for no more real. Its just a unit of measure expressed in a different way. Its just a unit used by humans to describe work. Normally foot/pounds but can also be Newton/meter or you can make up your own for the sake of the moment, like say ounces/meter.(oh how dare I mix 2 seperate systems of measure)

I use torque wrenches all the time. They allow me to feel torque quite well. Every time I loosen a bolt, screw, valve torque is what turns it.

I'm yet to find a hp wrench. So, I can't really feel that on a regular basis. But, then again, I can distinguish between the two. :boobs:

[Apoc]

Harely/buell riders always defend toque as if you can grab hold of it.

It is a unit of measure, a unit of Torque can no more be held in your hand than can a unit of HP and is there for no more real. Its just a unit of measure expressed in a different way. Its just a unit used by humans to describe work. Normally foot/pounds but can also be Newton/meter or you can make up your own for the sake of the moment, like say ounces/meter.(oh how dare I mix 2 seperate systems of measure)

Did you get past grade 6? Or were you taught that the way to cover yourself when your wrong is to be defensive and defend your silly idealogies in hopes no one recognizes your a fool? Catholic perhaps?

I'll type it once more, slowly. Torque and rpm are real, measured forces. Horsepower is a number that comes from an equation [ (torque x RPM)/5252 ].

[HRCNICK11]

And yet you still don't know that you can input it into your own equation and get a HP rating for your beloved torque wrench.

So does your torque wrench measure in pound feet/second or pound feet/minute or don't you know?

[HRCNICK11]

So by your rational a pound is a more tangable unit of measure because its closer to the root than a foot pound/second.

[Apoc]

And yet you still don't know that you can input it into your own equation and get a HP rating for your beloved torque wrench.


Yes, you can get a horsepower rating on your torque wrench if you do the math, doesnt make it any more real.

[HRCNICK11]

I give up next you'll try to explain how your leaky unbalanced lump of crap motors are more efficient cause they are made from lead or something.

[Tmall]

And yet you still don't know that you can input it into your own equation and get a HP rating for your beloved torque wrench.

So does your torque wrench measure in pound feet/second or pound feet/minute or don't you know?

Are you just going to measure the amount of degrees you turned the wrench, find out what percentile of 360 degrees you turned it and use a less than whole number for your rpm?

Let's say I'm putting down 35ft lbs. I turned my wrench 15 degrees. 15/360X100 gives you your percentage of a revolution. This gives us 4.1% of a rev or .041rpm.

(35x.041)/5252= Somethign like .0002hp. So, you could say you've done .0002hp of work while you were using your tq wrench. But, most people would know that you've used 35ft/lbs to tighten your bolt. Because, they can feel a 35lb weight. Most can't feel, .0002hp or even begin to tell you how hp works, or what it is.

I give up next you'll try to explain how your leaky unbalanced lump of crap motors are more efficient cause they are made from lead or something.

Are you bashing my bike?

[Apoc]

I give up next you'll try to explain how your leaky unbalanced lump of crap motors

Motors are electric, idiot. My bike has an engine.

[Tmall]

So by your rational a pound is a more tangable unit of measure because its closer to the root than a foot pound/second.

No, my rational is this. Torque is the twisting force that turns your wheels. That is what you feel every single time you step on the accelerator. You never feel hp. Ever. All you feel is the torque being applied over a time period. Torque begins to drop off because the engine starts to lose efficiency. The air pump isn't working as it should, because it is beyond the point where it can effectively draw in air/fuel, while clearing the exhaust gases effectively.

That is where you get your horsepower. It is a measure of how efficiently your torque can be continued to be used.

[Phenix_Rider]

Yes, you can get a horsepower rating on your torque wrench if you do the math, doesnt make it any more real.

So if your torque wrench isn't turning, is it still real? :lol:

This isn't psychology! Both numbers are real and have meaning. You just have to understand a little science. An IC engine CANNOT apply a useful force at 0 RPM- at a stall.

Torque is a measure of force applied at a distance.
C'mon, you can apply all the force you want to something, if it won't move it doesn't much matter- you're not doing any work. If you have 200 ft-lbs of torque available, and the chain holding the bike back is rated at 20,000 lbs you aren't doing shit or going anywhere.

Horsepower is a measure of work done (or energy expended) over time. Same as a Watt or BTU. You don't argue that your engine is working, or the heat coming off your hot water heater is imaginary, do you? You could easily convert that BTU or Wattage number into HP. Your engine does work to move your ass, and the water heater does work to heat water (changing the amount of thermal energy).

[Tmall]

So if your torque wrench isn't turning, is it still real? :lol:

This isn't psychology! Both numbers are real and have meaning. You just have to understand a little science. An IC engine CANNOT apply a useful force at 0 RPM- at a stall.

Torque is a measure of force applied at a distance.
C'mon, you can apply all the force you want to something, if it won't move it doesn't much matter- you're not doing any work. If you have 200 ft-lbs of torque available, and the chain holding the bike back is rated at 20,000 lbs you aren't doing shit or going anywhere.

Horsepower is a measure of work done (or energy expended) over time. Same as a Watt or BTU. You don't argue that your engine is working, or the heat coming off your hot water heater is imaginary, do you? You could easily convert that BTU or Wattage number into HP. Your engine does work to move your ass, and the water heater does work to heat water (changing the amount of thermal energy).
Fact or no? A dyno measures torque, and calculates hp.

I'm not saying hp doesn't "exist". You just don't feel it like you do torque. Much like latent heat can't be felt, but it is there.

[HRCNICK11]

Actually it measures force over distance which we humans express as torque it can just a easly be expressed as HP.

[Cutty72]

Like most people, I want it all. My new bike should satisfy both requirements. Enough torque to pull hard and enough HP to keep going when the torque curve starts dropping off.

Your torque curve drops off? Sucks to be you!

[HRCNICK11]

I truth a dyno measure electrical energy produced when a large drum is spun with a load. So I guess it measures watts.

[Tmall]

I truth a dyno measure electrical energy produced when a large drum is spun with a load. So I guess it measures watts.


:lol

Watts are a measure of work. They are a function of amps, ohms and volts. :didntdo:

So, if you're drum is measuring the electrical resistance to get it up to speed, then watts would be a function of ohms and rpm, wouldn't they?

[HRCNICK11]

And not strangely one watt equals 0.7375621 pound-feet/second. There for you don't own a motorcycle you own a generator or a motor conected backwards.

[Gas Man]

That movie Torque was the worst mc movie ever!

HP sells bikes
Torque wins races

[Tmall]

So, because tq can be converted to watts, my bike is a generator?


Watts can be converted to btu, is my bike a furnace as well?

[Apoc]

Watts can be converted to btu, is my bike a furnace as well?

My rc51 was...

[racedoll]

I want a nice mix of both HP and torque, whether they be real or imaginary.

[TommyHotWheel]

No they're not. Hp is a function of tq.
Hp is a way of expressing how much work the tq can do.

Hp is math, tq is the hand of god.

Nothing feels better than twisting the throttle and feeling the hand of God push you until your eyes tear and you see the Angels begging you to back off....

[Homeslice]

HP sells bikes
Torque wins races

Really, then why do MotoGP, Formula 1, and nearly all major motorsport series feature vehicles with a much greater ratio of HP to torque than anything available on the street? Because they have to build engines that keep breathing and keep revving in order to acheive higher top speeds.

If torque was all that was necessary, they'd be using tractor engines.

[mutley]

The thing is if i build this car she would be better set up for more torque or its eather go diesel or cut the cams and make it a twin cyilinder four as i will be pulling away in around 3 rd gear

[mutley]

And not strangely one watt equals 0.7375621 pound-feet/second. There for you don't own a motorcycle you own a generator or a motor conected backwards.

Lol but true. is it 1450w = 1 hp i think

[mutley]

Really, then why do MotoGP, Formula 1, and nearly all major motorsport series feature vehicles with a much greater ratio of HP to torque than anything available on the street? Because they have to build engines that keep breathing and keep revving in order to acheive higher top speeds.

i agree with that

If torque was all that was necessary, they'd be using tractor engines.

thats why i think diesel engines would be better for off lthe line

[Gas Man]

Really, then why do MotoGP, Formula 1, and nearly all major motorsport series feature vehicles with a much greater ratio of HP to torque than anything available on the street? Because they have to build engines that keep breathing and keep revving in order to acheive higher top speeds.

If torque was all that was necessary, they'd be using tractor engines.
Don't watch motogp. Ever been to drag races? All about torque there.

I'm trying to remember the other old saying...

Something like

Torque moves you off the line, hp pushes you thru the gates or finish line...
or
Torque takes you ### mph, hp licks your asshole...

nope can't remember

[karl_1052]

Really, then why do MotoGP, Formula 1, and nearly all major motorsport series feature vehicles with a much greater ratio of HP to torque than anything available on the street? Because they have to build engines that keep breathing and keep revving in order to acheive higher top speeds.

If torque was all that was necessary, they'd be using tractor engines.

And if it was all about horsepower, you could take a motor with 10 lbs/ft og torque and if you spin it fast enough, it will make 220hp. Will that win races?
Torque is the twisting force applied to the transmission from the crankshaft. HP is a function of torque at a given RPM.(were you sleeping earlier in the thread?)

[mutley]

And if it was all about horsepower, you could take a motor with 10 lbs/ft og torque and if you spin it fast enough, it will make 220hp. Will that win races?
Torque is the twisting force applied to the transmission from the crankshaft. HP is a function of torque at a given RPM.(were you sleeping earlier in the thread?)

lol would heve said the same but but there is a limet of space on this server.

[Homeslice]

And if it was all about horsepower, you could take a motor with 10 lbs/ft og torque and if you spin it fast enough, it will make 220hp. Will that win races?
Torque is the twisting force applied to the transmission from the crankshaft. HP is a function of torque at a given RPM.(were you sleeping earlier in the thread?)

Everyone realizes it's a function of torque. It's been repeated over and over. Everyone knows the formula. I never said torque wasn't important, in fact you can't have HP without torque. Everyone knows that. All I'm saying is the engine is selected based on the application. If all you want to do is pull heavy loads, and you don't care about top speed, then get a semi-tractor. But for racing? Sorry that won't work.

[mutley]

Everyone realizes it's a function of torque. It's been repeated over and over. Everyone knows the formula. I never said torque wasn't important, in fact you can't have HP without torque. Everyone knows that. All I'm saying is the engine is selected based on the application. If all you want to do is pull heavy loads, and you don't care about top speed, then get a semi-tractor. But for racing? Sorry that won't work.

Not worred about top speed 70 to 80 is fine

[karl_1052]

Everyone realizes it's a function of torque. It's been repeated over and over. Everyone knows the formula. I never said torque wasn't important, in fact you can't have HP without torque. Everyone knows that. All I'm saying is the engine is selected based on the application. If all you want to do is pull heavy loads, and you don't care about top speed, then get a semi-tractor. But for racing? Sorry that won't work.

Speed is a factor of torque rpm and gearing.
The torque turns the transmission, the transmission multiplys the torque(not the HP) at a certain RPM and this creates speed.

[mutley]

Speed is a factor of torque rpm and gearing.
The torque turns the transmission, the transmission multiplys the torque(not the HP) at a certain RPM and this creates speed.

Would like diesel but got petrol so will have to live with it but once shes upto a 2.1lt 4 cy x 2 there be over 260 bhp + around 200ft + of torque she should pull from 3rd or 4th quite easley id have thought ?

[z06boy]

I love both...just one more than the other at different times. I love torque around town and hp out on the open road.

My Vette has excellent torque way down low in the rpm range which makes it such a nice hot little street car. The supercharger I picked for it was for the street therefore great torque but not really high peak HP.

The little Neon SRT-4 in the garage has good torque for a little 4 banger...I was really surprised with how much it has. Most little 4 bangers are torque deficient like the Honda S2000 however the Honda makes up for it with the higher revving engine since it winds all the way to 9k rpm. Of course the Honda is a nicer car period...not even talking about that.

The R1 has a little torque being a litre bike but not really much to brag about but the hp is excellent.

The R6 plain and simple lacks torque...wind that baby up and it will stroll...good track bike.

The boat...all about the torque with that one.

[HRCNICK11]

Don't watch motogp. Ever been to drag races? All about torque there.

This must be the reason Busas get beat so bad by Harleys at the drag strip.

[Tmall]

Man, you just have to stop.

THE fastest drag bikes are indeed Harley's.. Top fuel v twins ftw.

[HRCNICK11]

Doesn't look like a V-Twin to me!

http://www.norwalkraceway.com/main-news1/national-record-falls-on-the-opening-day-of-the-ama-fall-nationals/ama-dragbike-009.jpg/image_insidestory

[HRCNICK11]

Nope still doesn't look like a V-Twin!

http://www.aperaceparts.com/news.html

[Apoc]

Nope still doesn't look like a V-Twin!

http://www.aperaceparts.com/news.html

Hey fucktard, did anyone say ALL top fuels are v-twins?

No, it was said the best are. And its true. Harley tops drag race rankings in the top fuel category constantly.

Im sorry your retarded and have horrible reading comprehension. We'll try to speak slowly so you understand.

[TommyHotWheel]

Pro stock bike...Even bringing TLRs out of mothballs to run with Harley/Buells.

[HRCNICK11]

I posted the record holder so I would assume its the fastest.

No need for name calling!

[HRCNICK11]

Call me crazy but I think the v-twins get a displacement advantage same as they do in road racing.

I'll run my stock 600 against a stock 900 buell anyday. Pretty sure I'll come out ahead in a drag race and a road race.

[Tmall]

Call me crazy but I think the v-twins get a displacement advantage same as they do in road racing.

I'll run my stock 600 against a stock 900 buell anyday. Pretty sure I'll come out ahead in a drag race and a road race.

Buell doesn't make a 900.

Wanna compare dick size?

[HRCNICK11]

Sorry I thought the XB 9 was a 900 I guess my 599cc will have to smike the 984cc bike! Still should not be a problem.

Why you getting all upset for?

[karl_1052]

Call me crazy but I think the v-twins get a displacement advantage same as they do in road racing.

I'll run my stock 600 against a stock 900 buell anyday. Pretty sure I'll come out ahead in a drag race and a road race.

it is 600 vs 1125 ;)

http://www.dragbike.com/dbnews/anmviewer.asp?a=4704&z=9

Spiderman McBride is a nine time champ and world record holder in Top Fuel on an inline 4. But since that motor is now a supercharged 1700cc motor, it is designed to make tons of torque.

[HRCNICK11]

it is 600 vs 1125

Actually it would be 599 against a 1125 and I will still win if they are stock from the showroom!

[Tmall]

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/500/3188/Motorcycle-Article/Atlanta-NHRA-Motorcycle-Drag-Racing-Results.aspx

lol, this pro stock race had a v rod and a buell in the final. There are several others with similar results. Including fastest passes which were made by Harleys.

I can't find any real number for overall fastest/quickest drag bike.

[Tmall]

If YOU could beat a Buell on your 600, you'd be getting paid to do it. you wouldn't be boasting about how awesome you are on the internet..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2qy9_590cA

[HRCNICK11]

Yeah and a buell won the AMA 600 class this year cause the rules were changed so they could! Does not prove crap!

[Tmall]

And here's one being beaten by, but still running pretty close to a Busa..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZyg5qb4vmM&feature=related

Yeah and a buell won the AMA 600 class this year cause the rules were changed so they could! Does not prove crap!

do you even know what you're arguing anymore?

[HRCNICK11]

Buell doesn't make a 900.

Cough cough they don't make a production bike anymore either! Matter of fact they never made a production motor they bought them from Rotax and Harley.

[Tmall]

Cough cough they don't make a production bike anymore either! Matter of fact they never made a production motor they bought them from Rotax and Harley.

Do you wanna play, "what parts on your bike aren't made by the manufacturer"?

[HRCNICK11]

So if Harley/Buell made a plane would you fly it?

[Tmall]

So if Harley/Buell made a plane would you fly it?

No. I do not have a pilots license.

If Honda developed a clue, would you buy it?

[HRCNICK11]

So if Harley/Buell made a plane would you fly it?

Answer...........Not for long!

[Flexin]

Wow! This thread went to shit fast.

I will take torque. Years ago I test drove a Mazda 6 that I wanted to buy. That car wouldn't move till you had it rev'd up. I couldn't stand that so I didn't buy it. My Olds Intrigue made me happy.

James

[HRCNICK11]

OK I will give up you guys convinced me to buy a new buell so who sell 2010 buells?

[Flexin]

OK I will give up you guys convinced me to buy a new buell so who sell 2010 buells?

LOL. Damn let it die. If someone pisses in your cornflakes you can pour another bowl.

James

[azoomm]

Hey fucktard,....

e a s y there kiddo.... play nice.

[Homeslice]

Speed is a factor of torque rpm and gearing.
The torque turns the transmission, the transmission multiplys the torque(not the HP) at a certain RPM and this creates speed.

And? Does that mean Formula 1 guys should all of a sudden install tractor engines with a 50-speed gearbox, just because it COULD reach 250 mph? Ain't gonna happen -- such a drivetrain would weigh too much and take too much space.

And as far as drag racing? Let's take one of the most popular classes, Pro Stock......those engines are ~500 cubic in V-8's that put out around 2,000 hp and 1,500 lb-ft of torque.............hardly the "stump puller" type of ratio that you torque fans are advocating.

Look, everyone wants low-end torque.......I don't know anyone who doesn't. But there's a balance. I don't particularly like cars or bikes that start running out of steam or vibrating to death (like Ford 302's would) at only 4-5K rpm. Personal preference.

[Apoc]

Answer...........Not for long!

thats kinda funny, cuz...

Pick a vintage year, any year since honda began building bikes.

I bet theres more HD's still on the road from that year than there are honda's?

My harley has yet do drip, drop, leak or burn a bit of oil. It performs flawlessly. I bought what I wanted.

You make it sound like im being forced to ride a HD. Guess what, I could have bought two of yours new for the price of one of mine. I ride what I have because I enjoy it. But that isnt what this thread is about. Its about you being wrong, and refusing to admit it.

[Apoc]

And? Does that mean Formula 1 guys should all of a sudden install tractor engines with a 50-speed gearbox, just because they COULD reach 250 mph? Ain't gonna happen.

once again, apples to oranges. Were talking about real world applications. Not multi-million dollar prototype race cars that will never see the a public road, EVER. You or I have no idea what the technology inside those cars entails. Its impossible to compare them.

Who's next? Have we got an arguement for thrust vs. hp in the house too?

[Tmall]

OK I will give up you guys convinced me to buy a new buell so who sell 2010 buells?

All the dealers. MAN you are bad at this..

[HRCNICK11]

I just like poking bears with sticks! In truth I'm glad you ride and don't really care what you ride.

I only have two hondas in the garage and one is the bike my wife rides. I also have a KTM a Yamaha and a few suzukis.

I really even like the new buell and have owned a RC51 and have 2 SV650s. Really guys you should not take me so serious.

[Tmall]

And? Does that mean Formula 1 guys should all of a sudden install tractor engines with a 50-speed gearbox, just because they COULD reach 250 mph? Ain't gonna happen.

What is your argument? The highest strung vehicles in the world compare to our bikes and daily drivers?

If weight and rules were a non issue, I'm sure they'd throw on a turbo charged or supercharged v8, shoehorn it into a small body and call it a day.

Did you ever notice that an f1 car will barely idle? They have to blip the throttle so it doens't fall below it's tq peak and have zero acceleration..

[Tmall]

I just like poking bears with sticks! In truth I'm glad you ride and don't really care what you ride.

I only have two hondas in the garage and one is the bike my wife rides. I also have a KTM a Yamaha and a few suzukis.

I really even like the new buell and have owned a RC51 and have 2 SV650s. Really guys you should not take me so serious.


All we have to take you on ARE your words. If you write retarded things, we'll think you're retarded. if you write thought out responses, we'll think you're intelligent. It's a simple concept.

[Avatard]

Motors are electric, idiot. My bike has an engine.

So you mean after all these years of thinking I was a motorhead, turns out I'm actually an enginehead?

[Tmall]

So you mean after all these years of thinking I was a motorhead, turns out I'm actually an enginehead?

Well, if that's not the engine calling the motor pot.. I mean, pothead.

[Apoc]

So you mean after all these years of thinking I was a motorhead, turns out I'm actually an enginehead?


Brain dead, total amnesia,
Get some mental anasthesia,
Don't move, I'll shut the door and kill the lights,
And if I can't be wrong I could be right,
All good clean fun,
Have another stick of gum,
Man, you look better already,
Motorhead, remember me now Motorhead, alright

:rockwoot:

[Tmall]

And? Does that mean Formula 1 guys should all of a sudden install tractor engines with a 50-speed gearbox, just because it COULD reach 250 mph? Ain't gonna happen -- such a drivetrain would weigh too much and take too much space.

And as far as drag racing? Let's take one of the most popular classes, Pro Stock......those engines are ~500 cubic in V-8's that put out around 2,000 hp and 1,500 lb-ft of torque.............hardly the "stump puller" type of ratio that you torque fans are advocating.

Look, everyone wants low-end torque.......I don't know anyone who doesn't. But there's a balance. I don't particularly like cars or bikes that start running out of steam or vibrating to death (like Ford 302's would) at only 4-5K rpm. Personal preference.
So, instead of using 500 cubic inch engines making 2000hp, how come they're not using smaller displacement higher revving force inducted motors to make the same 2000hp with much less tq? all they'd need is more revs.

[HRCNICK11]

Did you ever notice that an f1 car will barely idle? They have to blip the throttle so it doens't fall below it's tq peak and have zero acceleration

That is completely not true. They idle just fine they more computing power than you would ever believe and they idle just fine.

Now the clutches on the other hand do suck.

[mutley]

Thats something i need to make + axel but less than 15 if poss.

[Homeslice]

What is your argument? The highest strung vehicles in the world compare to our bikes and daily drivers?


The argument was, what wins races? Someone here claimed that HP is only good for advertising, and that torque is what wins races. I disagreed, which is why I went there. If you're going to talk about racing, it's only appropriate to talk about racing at the highest level.

[HRCNICK11]

So, instead of using 500 cubic inch engines making 2000hp, how come they're not using smaller displacement higher revving force inducted motors to make the same 2000hp with much less tq? all they'd need is more revs.

So by your math Diesel or steam engines would be even faster cause they make even more torque.

[Avatard]

I just called Chrysler, and told them straight away the importance of changing the name of their motor parts division from MOPAR to ENPAR.

They mumbled something about FIAT parts, and hung up.

[Apoc]

That is completely not true. They idle just fine they more computing power than you would ever believe and they idle just fine.

Now the clutches on the other hand do suck.

actually, no, they dont. Unlike Nascar, who rev their cars at the start line to show off for fans, f1 drivers do it so they dont stall off the line. If the rpms drop too low when they finally take off, the car will go nowhere fast.

[Avatard]

It's also to keep the plugs clean. Engines made to operate rich, and with high cam overlap can load the plugs rather easily.

[Tmall]

So by your math Diesel or steam engines would be even faster cause they make even more torque.

If you could get them to rev faster, and gear them properly, then yes. I don't see why not..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH9kKYz0kmI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDJBM9qLRNo&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlaxKNeoBXw&feature=related


I especially like this one.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV0XJePUitI&NR=1

And yet another.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-1MTr8X_Z0&feature=related

Amazing what tq can do when manipulated properly.

[Homeslice]

So, instead of using 500 cubic inch engines making 2000hp, how come they're not using smaller displacement higher revving force inducted motors to make the same 2000hp with much less tq? all they'd need is more revs.
Let's see, 2000hp and 1500 lb-ft torque......That's about the same ratio as the typical street car, like for example a Toyota Camry making 200hp and 150 torque.......So where is this stump-pulling torque monster you guys are advocating? That was my point.

[Tmall]

Just like to point out, that those diesel powered trucks are faster than a gas powered ford lightning..

[HRCNICK11]

If you could get them to rev faster, and gear them properly, then yes. I don't see why not..

You need them to rev cause thats where the HP is at. Top fuelers only have a clutch no tranny. So the gear is in the rear end and so it should not be a problem.

[Tmall]

Let's see, 2000hp and 1500 lb-ft torque......That's about the same ratio as the typical street car, like for example a Toyota Camry making 200hp and 150 torque.......So where is this stump-pulling torque monster you guys are advocating? That was my point.

? who cares about ratios? One has ten times the tq. Do you think traction may be an issue?

Your comparison of ratios make no sense.

[Apoc]

Let's see, 2000hp and 1500 lb-ft torque......That's about the same ratio as the typical street car, like for example a Toyota Camry making 200hp and 150 torque.......So where is this stump-pulling torque monster you guys are advocating? That was my point.


can you not see the difference between torque and a torque curve?

And, just because they make numbers that can be compared to a ratio, at PEAK performance, doesnt mean the curves are anything alike.

[Homeslice]

If you could get them to rev faster, and gear them properly, then yes. I don't see why not..

Amazing what tq can do when manipulated properly.

The more you modify an engine to get it to breathe better & rev faster, then it becomes less of a "torque monster" and more of a balanced all-around engine........So you're kinda destroying the whole "torquey stump-pulling engines are all you need" argument

[HRCNICK11]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeHmrGUBkqg

Sounds pretty smooth to me.

Does not seem to shake as much as a V-twin either.

[Apoc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeHmrGUBkqg

Sounds pretty smooth to me.

Does not seem to shake as much as a V-twin either.

ummm... they are revving that car on their own... Its not idling...

[Tmall]

You need them to rev cause thats where the HP is at. Top fuelers only have a clutch no tranny. So the gear is in the rear end and so it should not be a problem.

We have an 8000hp diesel at work that revs at 980rpm.. It pushes 5 million lbs 20 miles an hour.

Ps, revving quicker would mean it's more responsive, not that it's a higher max rpm. You can achieve this by shortening a stroke and boring the cylinder. The reciprocating mass would be the same, so effectively you've made it more responsive, and kept the same tq. (mostly)

[HRCNICK11]

Nascar does not even run fuel injection they are not exactly state of the art.

For the record my dad owns a vintage supermod and I have driven a Sammy Sessions vintage indy roadster that has been made into a super mod and its fun. So I know a bit about this stuff. I grew up around oval track racing.

[Tmall]

The more you modify an engine to get it to breathe better & rev faster, then it becomes less of a "torque monster" and more of a balanced all-around engine........So you're kinda destroying the whole "torquey stump-pulling engines are all you need" argument

Again, why are long stroke big blocks used for max acceleration? Ala; dragsters? Why aren't they v12 lambo motors?

[Homeslice]

? who cares about ratios? One has ten times the tq. Do you think traction may be an issue?

Your comparison of ratios make no sense.

Sure it makes sense. If you guys had your way, they'd be racing Peterbuilt semi-tractor engines, which typically have like 1200-1500 lb-ft of torque, but only 400-500 hp. But I don't see anyone doing that, do you?

[HRCNICK11]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98577932@N00/3689763751/

My dads toy its for sale by the way he found a different one he wants.

[Apoc]

Sure it makes sense. If you guys had your way, they'd be racing Peterbuilt engines which typically have like 1,500 lb-ft of torque but only 500 hp. But I don't see anyone doing that, do you?

Where did we say anything like that?

Stick to fashion, because your lost on this.

[Homeslice]

Then what exactly are you arguing? Or are you guys just defending Harley engines? Because I'm not even sure why the conversation went there.

[mutley]

would love to get in on this but jades is giving loads of stick will post my points as and when

[Apoc]

Then what exactly are you arguing? Or are you guys just defending Harley engines? Because I'm not even sure why the conversation went there.

were not defending anything. The whole point we started with was simple. Torque is a real force, hp is a number from a formula. HRCnick doesnt understand that.

[RACER X]

http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/hamster-with-hat.jpg

[HRCNICK11]

Again, why are long stroke big blocks used for max acceleration? Ala; dragsters? Why aren't they v12 lambo motors?

Cause they have a good mix of both, enough torque to get them moving and enough power on top to put up the big numbers.

A good motor has one or the other a great motor has both. Torque and the ablity to rev out.

[Avatard]

Again, why are long stroke big blocks used for max acceleration? Ala; dragsters? Why aren't they v12 lambo motors?

If throttle response was relevant to that form of racing, they would use V12s.

Fact is, they wind that shit way the fuck up, and apply a slipper clutch. ONCE.

Throttle response is almost irrelevant. Clutch response is, in fact, everything.

[HRCNICK11]

were not defending anything. The whole point we started with was simple. Torque is a real force, hp is a number from a formula. HCRnick doesnt understand that.


But I later pointed out that they are both just a way humans measure work and are no different.

[karl_1052]

And? Does that mean Formula 1 guys should all of a sudden install tractor engines with a 50-speed gearbox, just because it COULD reach 250 mph? Ain't gonna happen -- such a drivetrain would weigh too much and take too much space.

And as far as drag racing? Let's take one of the most popular classes, Pro Stock......those engines are ~500 cubic in V-8's that put out around 2,000 hp and 1,500 lb-ft of torque.............hardly the "stump puller" type of ratio that you torque fans are advocating.

Look, everyone wants low-end torque.......I don't know anyone who doesn't. But there's a balance. I don't particularly like cars or bikes that start running out of steam or vibrating to death (like Ford 302's would) at only 4-5K rpm. Personal preference.

Pro stock cars make approximately 900 lb/ft of torque at 7000RPM which equates to 1200hp. Nobody here ever advocated racing a 2500lb deisel engine. All we are saying is that torque is a measurable, quatifiable force, and horsepower is not. It is a calculation.

[HRCNICK11]

If throttle response was relevant to that form of racing, they would use V12s.

Fact is, they wind that shit way the fuck up, and apply a slipper clutch. ONCE.

Throttle response is almost irrelevant. Clutch response is, in fact, everything.


Are you sure with all that torque they should be able to just idle off the line and cross the finish at about 2000 rpms. <----being a smartass.

[Apoc]

But I later pointed out that they are both just a way humans measure work and are no different.


but they are very different. Torque is a real force, like a push or a pull. HP is just a measurement.

[HRCNICK11]

I'm just waiting for Jay Leno to set the land speed record with his Stanley Steamer! That Stanley Steamer is a torque monster!

[Avatard]

Sure it makes sense. If you guys had your way, they'd be racing Peterbuilt semi-tractor engines, which typically have like 1200-1500 lb-ft of torque, but only 400-500 hp. But I don't see anyone doing that, do you?

A former friend used to be a very well known [drag and circle track] engine builder. He was a rare cat in that he understood both the math, and the black arts of making power.

He laid it all out for me one day, but it was a tad beyond my ken (I grasped the concepts as he explained them, though I did not retain it all)...but what the essence of his math stated was consistent with what racers know; RPMs are everything. This goes against the "torque is everything" logic.

Engines are very application specific. I don't think you can use general rules to define what is most important, as that simply varies by application.

[HRCNICK11]

but they are very different. Torque is a real force, like a push or a pull. HP is just a measurement.

Of force at a certain RPM.
just like torque is a force over a certain distance.

[HRCNICK11]

Engines are very application specific. I don't think you can use general rules to define what is most important, as that simply varies by application.

Correct like if your pulling a house down the road a crap load of torque is needed. But if you pushing a gokart around a road corse a crap load of RPM is great.

[HRCNICK11]

A old railroad engineer I used to work with once told me. A steam engine can start a load it can not pull but a diesel engine can pull a load it can not start. The steam engine has more torque but at lower revs but as it revs its power falls off. The diesel (when compaired to the steam) has less torque at lower revs but more power at higher revs.

[HRCNICK11]

In a motorcycle a Vfour makes a great engine cause it has both low end power and high end power. Its a great compromise. That is why I wish the new Aprilia was not so darn expensive.

[Homeslice]

Pro stock cars make approximately 900 lb/ft of torque at 7000RPM which equates to 1200hp.
Sorry, what I quoted was Extreme Pro Stock.

All we are saying is that torque is a measurable, quatifiable force, and horsepower is not. It is a calculation.

I understand that. Only reason I posted was because someone claimed that that torque is all you need for racing.

[HRCNICK11]

Torque is also a calculation thats the reason its express as pound-feet per second or newton-meters per second.

Its not pounds or newtons seting on a scale its force over distance during a set amount of time.

Horse power just takes that same force and compairs it to RPM.

[HRCNICK11]

No matter how you express the work being done they are both just units of measure and they measure work being done.

[karl_1052]

In a motorcycle a Vfour makes a great engine cause it has both low end power and high end power. Its a great compromise. That is why I wish the new Aprilia was not so darn expensive.

Torque
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photogallerys/Suzuki_Hayabusa_ABC.jpg

Horsepower
http://image.sportrider.com/f/10012338+w750+st0/146_0804_04_z+2008_yamaha_YZF-R6+dyno_graph.jpg

Which is faster?(hint, it is the one that weighs almost 200lbs more)

redflip

[RACER X]

Which is faster?



the one w/ APOC or Tmall riding it! :lol

[HRCNICK11]

Which is faster?(hint, it is the one that weighs almost 200lbs more)


Only in a straight line and with more than twice the motor. I bet if you take off 2 plug wires to make the CCs almost equal the R6 would kick its ass in a straight line too.

Oh and its the one that has more HP too.

[HRCNICK11]

Compare a SV650 to a 600 and see which bike is faster its not the one with the most torque. The 600 makes about 40 and the SV650 about 45 and yet we would all agree the 600 will smoke it in a straight line and in the corners. They are near the same weight and displacement.

[karl_1052]

Compare a SV650 to a 600 and see which bike is faster its not the one with the most torque. The 600 makes about 40 and the SV650 about 45 and yet we would all agree the 600 will smoke it in a straight line and in the corners. They are near the same weight and displacement.

Gearing and the ability to rev will help it go faster, not horsepower.

Speed is a factor of torque rpm and gearing.
The torque turns the transmission, the transmission multiplys the torque(not the HP) at a certain RPM and this creates speed.

BTW, I didn't know we were putting engine restrictions on, after all, Homeslice suggested putting a big diesel in an F1 car. So my Busa(torque) and R6 comparo are still relevant. One makes big torque and one makes lots of horsepower through revs. Which is faster?

BTW, you can even substitute the R1 for the R6, and the results will be the same, even though the R1 has HP close to the busa and a lot less weight.

[Apoc]

the one w/ APOC or Tmall riding it! :lol

and where, may I ask, did Tmall and I mention one single thing about our riding abilities in this thread?

Your welcome to believe what you want, but everything we've said is fact. Torque is real, its a twisting motion. RPM's are real, the engine crank is turning the pistons at a specified amount every second. Horsepower is a measurement of how those two forces work together, its a number, not a force. A mark of efficiency.

More torque + more RPM = more hp. Simple enough. Except that pretty much only Tmall, Karl and I see it. Sure at a certain point you need a balance. But those facts aren't disputable.

You guys have twisted this discussion more than a rocky mountain pass, but at the end we come to one simple fact. Your all still wrong.

[Mr Lefty]

well this thread went to shit pretty quick

http://ebbs15.com/photos/448445724_AMXLX-XL.jpg

[Apoc]

Actually, it did quite well. 3 pages before anyone important (or who thinks they are, anyway) noticed.

[Tmall]

well this thread went to shit pretty quick

http://ebbs15.com/photos/448445724_AMXLX-XL.jpg

I bet if he'd have laid that bike down, it never would have caught fire. :lol

[Phenix_Rider]

I bet if he'd have laid that bike down, it never would have caught fire. :lol

Well, he wouldn't be on it at least! :tremble:

[mutley]

well that anwserd that 1 i guess lol.

[HRCNICK11]

I give you one horse power!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2545/4140115835_466d259a1c.jpg

I give you one Foot-pound/second of torque.......sorry I got nothing.

[Tmall]

Hp..

http://i31.tinypic.com/2u6g406.gif

Tq...

http://i47.tinypic.com/1zldgyv.gif

[mutley]

I give you one horse power!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2545/4140115835_466d259a1c.jpg

I give you one Foot-pound/second of torque.......sorry I got nothing.

rep true is it 33.000 lbs over 1 foot i think

[Apoc]

Hp..

http://i31.tinypic.com/2u6g406.gif

Tq...

http://i47.tinypic.com/1zldgyv.gif


:lol:

Fedor rocked that guy. And it was free!

[TommyHotWheel]

Tq=E.T.
Hp=mph...which do you want?

[101lifts2]

No, my rational is this. Torque is the twisting force that turns your wheels. That is what you feel every single time you step on the accelerator. You never feel hp. Ever. All you feel is the torque being applied over a time period. Torque begins to drop off because the engine starts to lose efficiency. The air pump isn't working as it should, because it is beyond the point where it can effectively draw in air/fuel, while clearing the exhaust gases effectively.

That is where you get your horsepower. It is a measure of how efficiently your torque can be continued to be used.

Torque is calculated as is HP. So...arguing one is "more real" than the other is simply assinine. You can measure FORCE and you can measure DISTANCE, but you cannot measure torque. You calculate torque by measuring the FORCE multiplied by the distance to the piviot arm at which the force is being applied. Same is with HP, calculated.

And for the record, torque is not relevant as much as is the POWER, which takes into account how much of the torque can be applied over a unit of time. 660lb-ft of torque is worthless if you only see it for 0.5 seconds.

Amatuers...LOL

[Homeslice]

And for the record, torque is not relevant as much as is the POWER, which takes into account how much of the torque can be applied over a unit of time. 660lb-ft of torque is worthless if you only see it for 0.5 seconds.

Amatuers...LOL

Truth. It's all about area under the curve, bitches :lol

If something has gobs of torque at only 1,000 rpm but the redline is only 2,000, then your total area under the curve is pretty much shit. Yeah, you could add tons of extra gears to get it up to speed, but I hope you enjoy lots of shifting and lots of weight as well.

[Tmall]

So, what about the 2 speed y2k bike? It has enough tq to only need two long gears.


101, nobody said hp doesn't exist, I'm saying hp is just tq over and over again. There's no denying this.

Its the chicken and egg argument, except its "what came first, the cow or the steak?" when its obvious the cow had to be there to produce the steak.

[Phenix_Rider]

So, what about the 2 speed y2k bike? It has enough tq to only need two long gears.


101, nobody said hp doesn't exist, I'm saying hp is just tq over and over again. There's no denying this.

Its the chicken and egg argument, except its "what came first, the cow or the steak?" when its obvious the cow had to be there to produce the steak.

Again, they're different but one is not better than the other. What do you call torque that isn't free to move?

Jet engines are NOT about torque. They have insanely long redlines- which is why the Y2K only has two gears. The torque isn't very high, but it's level across the RPM range, and the revs just keep on going- adding up to gobs of power. That engine has to be geared WAY down to be useful when it's connected to a shaft. The turbine/compressor spins very very fast, which is how it moves enough air to make power. (suck squeeze bang blow)

(Current) Electrics are all about torque, but it's all at low RPMs. They accelerate fast, and then hit a wall. Which is part of the reason the TTXGP racers barely beat a 50cc IC record. The purpose built "fun" race bikes got up to speed insanely fast, but fried the motors when the current draw overheated everything. You can do all kinds of fun things to improve RPM range directly at the motor (without a trans), but it ain't cheap or reliable (yet).

[Tmall]

Again, they're different but one is not better than the other. What do you call torque that isn't free to move?

Jet engines are NOT about torque. They have insanely long redlines- which is why the Y2K only has two gears. The torque isn't very high, but it's level across the RPM range, and the revs just keep on going- adding up to gobs of power. That engine has to be geared WAY down to be useful when it's connected to a shaft. The turbine/compressor spins very very fast, which is how it moves enough air to make power. (suck squeeze bang blow)

(Current) Electrics are all about torque, but it's all at low RPMs. They accelerate fast, and then hit a wall. Which is part of the reason the TTXGP racers barely beat a 50cc IC record. The purpose built "fun" race bikes got up to speed insanely fast, but fried the motors when the current draw overheated everything. You can do all kinds of fun things to improve RPM range directly at the motor (without a trans), but it ain't cheap or reliable (yet).

The torque of the y2k is insane. 425 ft/lbs at 2000rpm. http://www.bikez.com/bike/index.php?bike=20204


That is why it's a 2 speed. It could rev to 100k rpm, if it's not making any tq, it's not going anywhere in a hurry. Our marine gas turbine make 25000hp at about 9500rpm or so. If the calculations are the same for both type of engines, that`s an assload of tq...

I just want to reiterate here. I understand horsepower is a measure of the work done by tq and rpms. I would also like to point out that tq that is not free to move is still tq. The object being acted upon is just exerting an equal force to have a total net force of zero. But, you are still applying tq.

So again, hp is nothing without tq. But, since we`re talking about engines, and they have to have rpm to operate, then hp is completely and totally dependant on tq. You feel the tq moving you. The hp is just a measure of how much of that tq is being applied at a given rpm.

[mutley]

Need to do short hand to keep up. but me it long stroke = torque short = hp but thay coexest so the soluiton is just part of the problem ?

[Phenix_Rider]

Need to do short hand to keep up. but me it long stroke = torque short = hp but thay coexest so the soluiton is just part of the problem ?

:leaving thread for dead: :skep::shovel:

[101lifts2]

.... So again, hp is nothing without tq. But, since we`re talking about engines, and they have to have rpm to operate, then hp is completely and totally dependant on tq. You feel the tq moving you. The hp is just a measure of how much of that tq is being applied at a given rpm.

What does HP is nothing without torque mean? Dude they are both calculated numbers based off of FORCE. HP and torque are nothing without FORCE I guess would make more sense. For some reason you are amazed that say diesel engines can create more FORCE than a gas engine at the same RPM. This is simply because diesel fuel burns slower and contains more energy.

Force, distance and time are the elements.

[mutley]

So im saying that if i set my enging up for more torque as much as i can pulling from say 3rd gear should not be a problem yes/no.

[Rider]

What does HP is nothing without torque mean? Dude they are both calculated numbers based off of FORCE. HP and torque are nothing without FORCE I guess would make more sense. For some reason you are amazed that say diesel engines can create more FORCE than a gas engine at the same RPM. This is simply because diesel fuel burns slower and contains more energy.

Force, distance and time are the elements.

HP is a function of torque. Torque is measured and HP is calculated.

[Dave]

actually, no, they dont. Unlike Nascar, who rev their cars at the start line to show off for fans, f1 drivers do it so they dont stall off the line. If the rpms drop too low when they finally take off, the car will go nowhere fast.

thats all camshaft. A grind with a 20k redline aint gonna work at 1.

[Dave]

Torque
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/photogallerys/Suzuki_Hayabusa_ABC.jpg

Horsepower
http://image.sportrider.com/f/10012338+w750+st0/146_0804_04_z+2008_yamaha_YZF-R6+dyno_graph.jpg

Which is faster?(hint, it is the one that weighs almost 200lbs more)

redflip

aand the third gen zx10 which represents a happy mix in powerbands will pants both of em.