Health Care..what do you think?

[sherri_chickie]

I would really love to hear the Canadian and American opinions on universal health care. Americans maybe you can enlighten me as to why the country seems so opposed and Canadians maybe you can shed some light on how it works here.

I personally love our system, I've lived in both and a good portion of why I came back to Canada was because of our health care system. I had gall bladder surgery, and then went back in a few days later with a raging infection. How much did the operation cost me? $0. How much did a week in the hospital on morphine, percoset and antibiotics cost $0. I just got to focus on getting better and not " how the hell am I going to pay for this ( even just a co-pay can be insane) I do pay more in taxes up here, but seriously the additional taxes is less than what I paid monthly for shitty insurance in the states. Plus prescriptions here are MUCH cheaper than in the U. S.

And in the states the people are already paying for the healthcare of people on welfare, gives no incentive to get off and get a job if you are going to lose your healthcare, dental and vision benefits. I saw it a million times where I worked.

[marko138]

I think we need to do something but at the same time I don't want anything to change. I'm fortunate enough to work for the Gov't and I've got outstanding healthcare benefits and I don't pay a dime for them.

['73 H1 Triple]

Although something needs to be done, I sure as hell don't want Obama creating another 112 gov't agencies ( last count in the 2037 pages of the proposed health care plan ) to run his marxist/socialist healthcare plan.

[Tsunami]

I'm for universal healthcare, but if its gets passed here I think it will take a lot of time to work out the kinks. I rather move somewhere, where its already established! :lol:

The arguments I have heard against it is that the quality of our care will go down because the doctors will be making less money. And the reason why our healthcare is great is because our doctors have to compete for their business. I haven't really heard many great arguments...our healthcare isn't that great, we rank behind a lot of European nations.

I don't know enough about if it works or doesn't work to have a real objective opinion, but I am losing my health insurance this month and its scary. If I end up needing emergency care, I will not be able to afford it or will probably not get the best care because they know I don't have insurance.

People get denied procedures here all the time because their insurance won't cover it or insurance won't cover people with preexisting conditions. Its pretty shitty if you ask me.

I'm interested to hear the opinions of those in the medical field.

[101lifts2]

If left up to the U.S. government, it will eventually go broke or certain groups will be very very rich.

[101lifts2]

.... Plus prescriptions here are MUCH cheaper than in the U. S. ......

Yeah simply because the U.S. does all the research and these other socialistic countries reap the benefits. Imagine if Canada had to research and develop every single drug. Your taxes would be doubled....at least.

There is no such thing as a free lunch....

[tommymac]

Yeah simply because the U.S. does all the research and these other socialistic countries reap the benefits. Imagine if Canada had to research and develop every single drug. Your taxes would be doubled....at least.

There is no such thing as a free lunch....


Sure there is, its all the drug companies and the perks they try to give so we prescribe their medications.

I think they are way too powerful right now and thats a major problem.

Tom

[Cutty72]

idk... I'm deployed with a guy who's wife is canadian... they both hate the canadian healthcare system. Too slow and indecisive. She has been waiting 2 years to get her gall bladder removed.

[Tmall]

Honestly cutty.. He's a liar. There is no way you're waiting for 2 years for anything.

Anybody who told you that deserves to be ridiculed, or she wants it removed pre-emptively..

[Tmall]

As for indecisive, there is no board to decide if you get treatment.


If a Dr prescribes it, it gets done. That is a fact.

I have never heard of somebody being denied a procedure, much less waiting on a "decision".

It sounds like somebody is passing you on fifth or sixth hand info.

[cbrchick]

idk... I'm deployed with a guy who's wife is canadian... they both hate the canadian healthcare system. Too slow and indecisive. She has been waiting 2 years to get her gall bladder removed.

Funny....

Where does she live? We are a "have not province" compared to others in Canada and gall bladder surgery is a breeze. If it really needs to come out, they take it out. Infected stones, blocked ducts...depends on the degree of the gall bladder issue. Simply having periodic pain isn't a pre-req for surgery.

Having lived in Texas (like Sherri) and now work in the Canadian Health Care System... I gotta say, it ain't bad. Sure I pay higher taxes, but I'd rather more people receive tx than go by the wayside. And if anyone thinks our Drs/Medical facilities are sub-par b/c we are socialized, your mistaken.

Shit loads money go towards research here just as in the US.

My father had 2 surgeries for cancer at MD Anderson in Houston. 1987, 1994.
Chemo, radiation...wicked hospital, awesome oncologists. The bills my parents paid with great health coverage (80%) tens of thousands of dollars.

After all that top notch care, his Cancer came back in a different place. Even with all that money and resources, it came back. And that's no one's fault. We now know that chemo isn't useful for his type of Cancer.

When he discovered a small lump a few years ago, he saw an oncologist right away, had surgery 1.5 weeks later. And having worked with his oncologist surgeon, I can tell you he got expert care with ZERO cost. He doesn't get charged for each blood draw, every supply used, or any pain medication he may have received (which was none b/c he's a tough ass).

When I had my little girl, I paid NADA. I shared a room with another girl after wards b/c there were no privates left. Did I care? No...I work in a hospital, I don't want to spend anytime "relaxing" in one if I don't have to. I left 24 hours later. Being a nurse, I know I got all the important things I needed as well as my child. I could care less about the bells and whistles.

Anyway, there's def. somethings about our system that needs some tweek'n. It is frustrating having to wait for somethings. There's never enough room. Things are never done fast enough. And the food always sucks. But I know we do a lot of good for a lot of people that would die otherwise.

I'd gladly pay higher taxes so that any of you could receive health care. But that's just the way we think in a social place :)

[G-Rex]

I'm lucky that I have excellent health care through my company that is paid for entirely and covers at 100%

I don't mind my taxes going towards healthcare for those who can't afford it or don't get it. The problem is efficiency. There's no such thing here I don't think.

For those who haven't read the fine print of the proposed health care program, it's ugly. It covers far more than health care. It's about making government bigger and more inclusive in our day to day lives. That is what I have a problem with.

And for anybody who things the government can do a good job running a universal health care system here, I have one thing to say about that. Medicare. Ask anybody on *that* system how well it works. That's small in comparison to what this universal system would be, and the government can't even run that efficiently.

[Fleck750]

I think Americans as a whole would be in favor universal healthcare. The gov't already takes 1/3 of my income for mostly bullshit.

What I think bothers us the most is our gov'ts ability to fuck up most things it gets its hands on. Most of our social programs were started for the right reasons, but time, greed and bad management has turned those into a joke.

People that need things don't get them, but those willing to scream the loudest and sit on their asses do.

Professionals, i.e. doctors, nurses and all those in the health field like to get paid. Gov't is notorious for not doing that. Plus, they spent many years to get a degree and feel it's their right to make as much money as possible. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I doubt that most doctors want to help people, most are in it for the money.

[Tmall]

Our drs make a lot of money...

[cbrchick]

Our drs make a lot of money...

And they work a lot, a lot of hours and do it b/c they give a shit. Not everyone's in it for the money. It's not something I'd want to do. They have zero time with their families. Some here graduate with more than 500 grand in debt. It's a lot after 8 years of school, then specializing. I don't think some of them get paid enough for the time, compassion, volunteering, love, continuing education, commitment... I'm sure some people are in it for the money, but it's a lot of responsibility and sacrifice for a monetary gain that could be acquired with far less time and consequences in a different field.

[nhgunnut]

I would really love to hear the Canadian and American opinions on universal health care. Americans maybe you can enlighten me as to why the country seems so opposed and Canadians maybe you can shed some light on how it works here.

I personally love our system, I've lived in both and a good portion of why I came back to Canada was because of our health care system. I had gall bladder surgery, and then went back in a few days later with a raging infection. How much did the operation cost me? $0. How much did a week in the hospital on morphine, percoset and antibiotics cost $0. I just got to focus on getting better and not " how the hell am I going to pay for this ( even just a co-pay can be insane) I do pay more in taxes up here, but seriously the additional taxes is less than what I paid monthly for shitty insurance in the states. Plus prescriptions here are MUCH cheaper than in the U. S.
And in the states the people are already paying for the healthcare of people on welfare, gives no incentive to get off and get a job if you are going to lose your healthcare, dental and vision benefits. I saw it a million times where I worked.

Having worked in and lived with both systems I chose the US system. I was 4 years in Ontario.(late 80s Early 90s) While I was thrilled with the idea of the Canadian system my experience taught me that while Canadian system has excellent initial care that more complex issues are hindered by the system itself and that this is why Canadians per capita remain the number one consumers of medical tourism. The other issue is one of Culture, Canadian Culture is very different ( a fact that is often hidden on both sides of the border because of a common language) Canada has a centralized system Canadians think nothing of paying upward of 45 percent or more of there income in taxes (this is before you get to things like local taxes) Canada has a National Sales Tax , most Provinces have a "Sales Tax" ( you mention prescriptions in your post they are cheaper because like most things under a centralised system the prices are regulated and subsidised) In the past this has been described by a Canadian I respect as culture of "Raising the Floor" as someone who was raised in the US I experience it as "Lowering the Ceiling" A culture that guarantees basics but limits service and opportunity. Again I am not slamming the Canadian system I respect it, but I would rather not live under it again.

I live in a state that has no sales or income tax and combined with all local fees pay less than 30 percent in federal state and local taxes. I pay for my own heath care insurance balancing my needs and risks against cost and benefit ( My insurance is in my opinion far better than I had under OHIP and when you examine the tax differences much much cheaper oh and I pay $10 for a prescription). I fear that our current president and those marching mindless in lock step are going to do to our system and if they mess it up to much I may ask the cousins in Quebec to keep an eye out for a peice of retirement property for me, but right now as someone who has experienced both systems I will take the US without question,

[Cutty72]

idk, she's getting the surgery in 2 weeks :idk:

her hubby said she's had issued with it for about 2 years and was on some "list"

She lives in Winnipeg

[sherri_chickie]

I had my gallbladder out in less than 3 months from first diagnosis of a problem. It was quick and we dont need a hmo to decide if the operation is necessary. I likely would have been denied in the states because I did not have any acute attacks and it was elective as such. I felt so much better after the surgery, I hadnt realized just how crappy I felt every evening before the surgery.

How much will it cost me to have this baby if there are no complications? $0, my friend in the states $4000 ( thats just co-pays) If there are complications, still $0.

As far as taxes go, I make pretty decent money pay about 33% to retirement, taxes etc, I pay no sales tax in Alberta either just 5% GST. I take home double what I did in Texas, actually more than that, and make about 30K more a year than I would right now if I had stayed.

I just now had a conversation with a Canadian friend of mine who is now living in Texas about the medical system. He wants to move his family back to Canada because of it. ( well it and education and greedy insurance companies etc)

[Flexin]

idk... I'm deployed with a guy who's wife is canadian... they both hate the canadian healthcare system. Too slow and indecisive. She has been waiting 2 years to get her gall bladder removed.

I have a friend who's father went into the doctor, they found a problem and he was in the getting surgery a day or two later. For somethings there is a wait if your going to a specialist but that could happen anywhere.

James

[goof2]

I had my gallbladder out in less than 3 months from first diagnosis of a problem. It was quick and we dont need a hmo to decide if the operation is necessary. I likely would have been denied in the states because I did not have any acute attacks and it was elective as such. I felt so much better after the surgery, I hadnt realized just how crappy I felt every evening before the surgery.

How much will it cost me to have this baby if there are no complications? $0, my friend in the states $4000 ( thats just co-pays) If there are complications, still $0.

As far as taxes go, I make pretty decent money pay about 33% to retirement, taxes etc, I pay no sales tax in Alberta either just 5% GST. I take home double what I did in Texas, actually more than that, and make about 30K more a year than I would right now if I had stayed.

I just now had a conversation with a Canadian friend of mine who is now living in Texas about the medical system. He wants to move his family back to Canada because of it. ( well it and education and greedy insurance companies etc)

It sounds like your friend has shitty insurance. I had friends whose child was born with esophageal atresia. He was in surgery withing a couple hours of birth and was in the NICU for a while afterwords. They were out of pocket for right around $500 for everything.

ETA: This discussion is kind of pointless anyway. People's attitudes come down to personal experiences in each system, which is not representative of how each system functions as a whole. If you are to believe the media and the governments people die in this country due to lack of coverage/money/quality care. People die in other countries due to lack of resources/personel/quality care. For the most part each person's opinion is valid. The only opinion on the subject I really feel is rediculous is the idea that what is coming will 1) cost less, 2) cover more people, 3) keep the same quality of care, and 4) have none of the problems of other systems. You can't get something for nothing. Dreaming of a future medical system where that is the case is unrealistic.

[Smittie61984]

I had gall bladder surgery, and then went back in a few days later with a raging infection. How much did the operation cost me? $0. How much did a week in the hospital on morphine, percoset and antibiotics cost $0...I do pay more in taxes up here, but seriously the additional taxes is less than what I paid monthly for shitty insurance in the states.

Did the doctors work for free?

My problem with governmetn healthcare is someone like me who eats healthy, doesn't smoke, exercises, and doesn't stay at home drinking beer and eating hotwings yelling at a TV screen will be FORCED to pay for that person who doesn't eat healthy, doesn't exercise, smokes, and stays at home drinking beer and eating hot wings yelling at a tv screen.

The private sector always provides the best solutions and I prefer keeping it that way. The only reason our private insurance is fucked up now is because of government interaction.

Not to mention there is no constitutionality (American) to taking someone else's wealth and giving it to someone else which is also morally wrong.

[azoomm]

Did the doctors work for free?

My problem with governmetn healthcare is someone like me who eats healthy, doesn't smoke, exercises, and doesn't stay at home drinking beer and eating hotwings yelling at a TV screen will be FORCED to pay for that person who doesn't eat healthy, doesn't exercise, smokes, and stays at home drinking beer and eating hot wings yelling at a tv screen.

The private sector always provides the best solutions and I prefer keeping it that way. The only reason our private insurance is fucked up now is because of government interaction.

Not to mention there is no constitutionality (American) to taking someone else's wealth and giving it to someone else which is also morally wrong.

It's the American way to worry about paying for the mooches...

[Flexin]

idk... I'm deployed with a guy who's wife is canadian... they both hate the canadian healthcare system. Too slow and indecisive. She has been waiting 2 years to get her gall bladder removed.

I have a friend who's father went into the doctor, they found a problem and he was in the getting surgery a day or two later. For somethings there is a wait if your going to a specialist but that could happen anywhere.

James

[sherri_chickie]

My biggest problem with the American system, when I was there is how even if you have a job, you may not have adequate insurance. That a ' doctor" working for an HMO gets to decide if you get a procedure or medication when they have never seen you and get bonuses for turning down procedures, therefore saving money. I think that the last thing a sick person needs is to worry about how they are going to afford their treatment or if their insurance will pay for it.

And it is not just people with bad lifestyles that end up needing the hospital. Cancer can hit anyone, heart disease can be heriditary, and anyone can have an accident and end up in serious condition. I have a coworker with the healthiest habits of anyone I know who is having serious headaches right now and having to go through tests.

I think there is a way for everyone to have insurance and it be well run and not stupidly expensive. European countries have it better than we do, maybe look at their models closer. I am not saying the current proposal in the states is the right way to do it, but I think something has to change. Besides when a family goes bankrupt from medical bills, it affects all other industries as well.

[goof2]

It's the American way to worry about paying for the mooches...

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

Usually mis-attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville. I'm fine with him not being the one who said it. He strikes me as having been a douche of the highest order.

I find the statement especially interesting considering we recently passed the point where over half of the public has no federal income tax liability.

[azoomm]

My biggest problem with the American system, when I was there is how even if you have a job, you may not have adequate insurance. That a ' doctor" working for an HMO gets to decide if you get a procedure or medication when they have never seen you and get bonuses for turning down procedures, therefore saving money. I think that the last thing a sick person needs is to worry about how they are going to afford their treatment or if their insurance will pay for it.

And it is not just people with bad lifestyles that end up needing the hospital. Cancer can hit anyone, heart disease can be heriditary, and anyone can have an accident and end up in serious condition. I have a coworker with the healthiest habits of anyone I know who is having serious headaches right now and having to go through tests.

I think there is a way for everyone to have insurance and it be well run and not stupidly expensive. European countries have it better than we do, maybe look at their models closer. I am not saying the current proposal in the states is the right way to do it, but I think something has to change. Besides when a family goes bankrupt from medical bills, it affects all other industries as well.

I know you seem sold a bill of goods, that our system is bad - and Canada good. I get that.

But, each side can give you answers to fit the situation you are looking for. I'm curious where you got your $4000 tab for children? I had two children and paid a total of $250 for EACH child. Granted, I don't recall what my monthly payments were - but I wasn't making a lot of money at the time, and neither was my ex-husband. I had a low level Blue Cross/Blue Shield insurance plan... and that price included all prenatal vitamins, hospital stay, doctor visits, and followup. Maybe times have changed THAT MUCH in 15 years :idk:

Let's see, I have recently had a few procedures that weren't emergent - and were completely covered by insurance. Ooops, $25 co-pay. My husband even hurt himself trying to fly a motorcycle sideways - dislocated heel, copays for the doc and urgent care.

The most expensive thing I've paid for recently is $3,000 for my daughter's braces. Canada cover that one?

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness... is this qualified under "life"?

[goof2]

My biggest problem with the American system, when I was there is how even if you have a job, you may not have adequate insurance. That a ' doctor" working for an HMO gets to decide if you get a procedure or medication when they have never seen you and get bonuses for turning down procedures, therefore saving money. I think that the last thing a sick person needs is to worry about how they are going to afford their treatment or if their insurance will pay for it.

And it is not just people with bad lifestyles that end up needing the hospital. Cancer can hit anyone, heart disease can be heriditary, and anyone can have an accident and end up in serious condition. I have a coworker with the healthiest habits of anyone I know who is having serious headaches right now and having to go through tests.

I think there is a way for everyone to have insurance and it be well run and not stupidly expensive. European countries have it better than we do, maybe look at their models closer. I am not saying the current proposal in the states is the right way to do it, but I think something has to change. Besides when a family goes bankrupt from medical bills, it affects all other industries as well.

I don't know about the rest of Europe, but after having the "pleasure" of experiencing England's NHS I hope you aren't including their system in the "have it better" statement.

As far as something having to change I do agree with you. My problem is two concepts that I think would have large effects on the system as a whole are being ignored by those crafting the legislation. If the bill doesn't offer the ability to purchase insurance across state lines or contain some restrictions on medical malpractice lawsuits it tells me that those writing the bill would rather appease their lobbyists than craft effective legislation.

[Fleck750]

Can Canadian doctors or health practitioner be sued?

Do they carry malpractice insurance?

[nhgunnut]

I had my gallbladder out in less than 3 months from first diagnosis of a problem. It was quick and we dont need a hmo to decide if the operation is necessary. I likely would have been denied in the states because I did not have any acute attacks and it was elective as such. I felt so much better after the surgery, I hadnt realized just how crappy I felt every evening before the surgery.

How much will it cost me to have this baby if there are no complications? $0, my friend in the states $4000 ( thats just co-pays) If there are complications, still $0.

As far as taxes go, I make pretty decent money pay about 33% to retirement, taxes etc, I pay no sales tax in Alberta either just 5% GST. I take home double what I did in Texas, actually more than that, and make about 30K more a year than I would right now if I had stayed.

I just now had a conversation with a Canadian friend of mine who is now living in Texas about the medical system. He wants to move his family back to Canada because of it. ( well it and education and greedy insurance companies etc)

I respect that and if I were to move back to Canada I would love to go to Alberta or BC. As I said it is a personal Preference and a Very Different Culture and not to be contrary but fist by my standard 33% is a Lot of money and by the time you factor in GST I bet you are paying 40% of your income to the federal Government. Again nothing wrong with that you get a standardized level of service. One of the major cultural differences that seems apparent to me is that In Canada , the citizen always seems to defer without much thought to the Centralized authority "for the good of the community" The down side to it (again a personal perception) is that while you get a standardized level of care you give up some choice and pay for the communities care with no option but to fund others bad choices. In the States we have an instinctive distrust of a centralized authority "I'm from the government I am here to help" is a long standing joke. We have more choices in terms of health care coverage but it is a personal responsibility. My Co Pay is never more than 1k a year, but I pay a bit more up front. Some of my health care costs are limited as my wife will never have children so I don't pay for maternity risks or coverage for minor children.
A lot of the screaming here in the states come from people who want to have what the other guy has without taking the risks or responsibilities that the other guy took to get it. As I said there is a lot to Admire about the Canadian system , having experienced it I would not choose to subject myself to it again.

[goof2]

Can Canadian doctors or health practitioner be sued?

Do they carry malpractice insurance?

Yes and yes, but there are a lot more barriers for someone who wants to sue in Canada resulting in fewer suits, the trials are more often in front of judges rather than juries, plaintiffs win less often, average judgments are a fraction of what they are here, pain and suffering damages are capped in Canada, and Canadian doctors typically pay 10% or less of what malpractice insurance costs here.

The other factor is because Canadian doctors don't concern themselves with lawsuits as much they supposedly practice less defensive medicine. While lawsuits account for less than 1% of the cost of healthcare in America some estimates say defensive medicine accounts for 10% or more of America's healthcare costs (in 05 Medicare's administrator told Congress it was 9%).

[goof2]

I respect that and if I were to move back to Canada I would love to go to Alberta or BC. As I said it is a personal Preference and a Very Different Culture and not to be contrary but fist by my standard 33% is a Lot of money and by the time you factor in GST I bet you are paying 40% of your income to the federal Government. Again nothing wrong with that you get a standardized level of service. One of the major cultural differences that seems apparent to me is that In Canada , the citizen always seems to defer without much thought to the Centralized authority "for the good of the community" The down side to it (again a personal perception) is that while you get a standardized level of care you give up some choice and pay for the communities care with no option but to fund others bad choices. In the States we have an instinctive distrust of a centralized authority "I'm from the government I am here to help" is a long standing joke. We have more choices in terms of health care coverage but it is a personal responsibility. My Co Pay is never more than 1k a year, but I pay a bit more up front. Some of my health care costs are limited as my wife will never have children so I don't pay for maternity risks or coverage for minor children.
A lot of the screaming here in the states come from people who want to have what the other guy has without taking the risks or responsibilities that the other guy took to get it. As I said there is a lot to Admire about the Canadian system , having experienced it I would not choose to subject myself to it again.

One of the most ridiculous statements about the proposed healthcare bill is the Republicans who argue against this government administered program have no problem with their own government run healthcare. The statement would make sense if the two systems had any chance of being similar. There will be no similarities between them.

[Fleck750]

Yes and yes, but there are a lot more barriers for someone who wants to sue in Canada resulting in fewer suits, the trials are more often in front of judges rather than juries, plaintiffs win less often, average judgments are a fraction of what they are here, pain and suffering damages are capped in Canada, and Canadian doctors typically pay 10% or less of what malpractice insurance costs here.

The other factor is because Canadian doctors don't concern themselves with lawsuits as much they supposedly practice less defensive medicine. While lawsuits account for less than 1% of the cost of healthcare in America some estimates say defensive medicine accounts for 10% or more of America's healthcare costs (in 05 Medicare's administrator told Congress it was 9%).

By defensive medicine, do you mean fewer tests to cover their ass?

Do you feel that the docs in Canada can make better judgments w/o the fear of litigation hanging over them?

I understand less frivolous lawsuits, but does it make it harder to prove that a doctor is a quack, or does your medical community have a board that takes complaints and yanks a bad doc out of the system?

[goof2]

By defensive medicine, do you mean fewer tests to cover their ass?

Yes

Do you feel that the docs in Canada can make better judgments w/o the fear of litigation hanging over them?

I think doctors in both America and Canada make judgments that best fit their situation. American doctors are forced to be more "conscientious" of all potential issues, no matter the likelihood, to cover their asses.

I understand less frivolous lawsuits, but does it make it harder to prove that a doctor is a quack, or does your medical community have a board that takes complaints and yanks a bad doc out of the system?

Doctors with repeated lawsuits and complaints have their malpractice insurance increase. In Canada they buy in a group and lawsuits have no effect on their premiums.

[Fleck750]

So there is no board of peers that investigate a bad doc and revoke their license to practice?

[nhgunnut]

One of the most ridiculous statements about the proposed healthcare bill is the Republicans who argue against this government administered program have no problem with their own government run healthcare. The statement would make sense if the two systems had any chance of being similar. There will be no similarities between them.

First since Canadians are the world largest consumer per ca pita of Medical Tourism Services Obviously many Canadians with means do have a problem with their system ( still a good system) You are right the US will never have a single payer style system the way Canada does. The argument that a Centralized system will lower standards of care is a Solid one. an HMO is an HMO whether it is run by a private company or a Government Agency the system of Concurrent Review in the Democratic Bill is the same as Every other system of Concurrent review used by every Private Insurance Company. It has failed to save them money or control health care costs. It has consistently lowered the standards of delivery of care and limited choices to some degree for every US citizen since 1985. We can expect it to be worse under a Government run system. You can expect less choice because instead of fighting an insurance companies decision you are now left to fight a Federal Agency and a Federal Law. Again this might be worth it if it lowered Health Care costs or the Cost of Health Care Insurance. It does not and the prototype of what the Democrats have Misrepresented as Health Care Reform is Massachusetts . They have had their mandates and public options in place since 2006 it written largely by Ted Kennedy and cronies and was signed by then Republican Governor Mitt Romney. (the reason Republicans have not used this disaster to their advantage is that Romney Bragged about signing it )The Result is that MA has lost thousands of Jobs as businesses cut jobs to avoid mandates or moved out of the state all together. The cost of a Health care plan has risen at a least 15% as much as 40% in many cases with an average of 23% and the actual cost of Health Care is rising at about 50% faster than it was before the system went into place. Fact Centralized systems limit Choice (sometimes it worth it the disaster that the Democrats are pushing is not.)

[goof2]

So there is no board of peers that investigate a bad doc and revoke their license to practice?

Each state has a medical board that makes decisions about medical licenses.

As far as determining if a doctor is a "quack", lawsuits aren't much of a help there since most of them never go to judgment, or even to trial. They are typically settled confidentially with no admission of guilt by the doctor.

To correct my answer to one of your earlier questions, by defensive medicine I mean running MORE tests to cover their ass, not less.

[Smittie61984]

I keep forgetting that we have a preview of American Healthcare. I grew up a military brat and went to military hospitals/doctors. I think I'd prefer going to a medicine man from Sierra Leon then back to a military hospital.

[derf]

I keep forgetting that we have a preview of American Healthcare. I grew up a military brat and went to military hospitals/doctors. I think I'd prefer going to a medicine man from Sierra Leon then back to a military hospital.


The military healthcare isnt bad, but if you don't understand it, it is a burocratic nightmare. I personally like the idea of universal healthcare, but the US gov will mess it up real quick, I dont like the first solution that the proposed, it needs to be looked at by smarter people than politicians and worked from there.

[Tmall]

I know you seem sold a bill of goods, that our system is bad - and Canada good. I get that.

But, each side can give you answers to fit the situation you are looking for. I'm curious where you got your $4000 tab for children? I had two children and paid a total of $250 for EACH child. Granted, I don't recall what my monthly payments were - but I wasn't making a lot of money at the time, and neither was my ex-husband. I had a low level Blue Cross/Blue Shield insurance plan... and that price included all prenatal vitamins, hospital stay, doctor visits, and followup. Maybe times have changed THAT MUCH in 15 years :idk:

Let's see, I have recently had a few procedures that weren't emergent - and were completely covered by insurance. Ooops, $25 co-pay. My husband even hurt himself trying to fly a motorcycle sideways - dislocated heel, copays for the doc and urgent care.

The most expensive thing I've paid for recently is $3,000 for my daughter's braces. Canada cover that one?

Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness... is this qualified under "life"?
Wouldn't you think somebody who has first hand experience and lived under both systems would have a more indepth view of it? Kind of like how a mother of teenagers would know more about teenagers than somebody who didn't have teen aged children?

:lol:

[Tsunami]

I'd gladly pay higher taxes so that any of you could receive health care. But that's just the way we think in a social place :)

I rather pay higher taxes for that reason than to have it go to bail out big businesses!

[Tsunami]

Professionals, i.e. doctors, nurses and all those in the health field like to get paid. Gov't is notorious for not doing that. Plus, they spent many years to get a degree and feel it's their right to make as much money as possible. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I doubt that most doctors want to help people, most are in it for the money.

I've seen both sides, doctors that are in it for the money and some that are in it to really help people. My dad had a doctor that was going to treat him for free because his health insurance capped how much money they would spend at the time. While doctors make good money, there are other professions out there that make just as much, for less schooling, no malpractice threats, and probably less headache.

[Smittie61984]

Wouldn't you think somebody who has first hand experience and lived under both systems would have a more indepth view of it? Kind of like how a mother of teenagers would know more about teenagers than somebody who didn't have teen aged children?

:lol:

You could also send Beavis and Butthead into outerspace but do you think they'll understand more about gravity and space vs a MIT grad who majored in astrophysics?

I'm also not taking the word of someone who "thinks" she isn't paying for her healthcare other than a little more in taxes without even considering that someone else out there who she has never met and has nothing to do with, paid the other $30,000 of her surgery. And that person only gave that money up becuase the government used it's policing power which is backed up by men/women with guns to take that money.

Wether government run healthcare would increase our lifespan by 30 years or not is irrelevant. It is a product/service that a citizen is forced to purchase by the government and it also involves taking someone else's money away too which is stealing. It's a moral issue more than anything.

[Smittie61984]

I'd gladly pay higher taxes so that any of you could receive health care. But that's just the way we think in a social place :)

Sweet. Next time I'm at the doctors office I'll let them know where to send the bill.

Now here is a question. Why can't the people who want to pay higher taxes so we can get healthcare just set up a seperate box on their tax forms that says "I want more money taken out for the healthcare of others". That way it's strictly voluntary and we can all get healthcare!

[sherri_chickie]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread.. thanks to everyone for their responses!

My number of $4000 for a child was from my best friend who is 21 weeks pregnant in Texas, both her and her husband are teachers for the same school district in Houston. That is the number that they were quoted from their doc/hospital.

It is not just the private person who pays taxes, corporations etc pay tax too some of that gets pooled into healthcare. I have experienced both systems, and although I don't think the U.S. system is terrible, I like the idea of a state taking care of its citizens a bit better, after all they are the ones who make the country great are they not? Is it not in their best interest to keep their people healthy? You are already paying for the healthcare of those on welfare.

As far as dental/orthodontic, my provincial healthcare doesn't cover it, but the additional insurance we get through work does, as well as vision, chiropractic, massage, orthopedics, and a who crap of other stuff, all paid for 100% by my school board. Our prescription coverage is also not covered by provincial healthcare, but if you don't have prescription coverage you can still afford medication.

The biggest problem I have seen with out healthcare up here is that if you are waiting for elective tests such as an mri on your knee from a sports injury, you are on the bottom of the list and it can take a while to get in for it. They are thinking of creating a two tier system where you can either wait and the province will cover it, or get in right away to a private clinic and pay for it out of your own pocket. There is a lot of resistance to a two tier system though, we see it as a slippery slope.

Each provinces health care is run by that province although healthcare is guaranteed by the country, so it does vary province to province. Until this January we actually paid for health care premiums, mind you they were only about $44 a person a month ( or something like that)

[Apoc]

Let's see, I have recently had a few procedures that weren't emergent - and were completely covered by insurance. Ooops, $25 co-pay. My husband even hurt himself trying to fly a motorcycle sideways - dislocated heel, copays for the doc and urgent care.

Congrats. You still pay monthly insurance fees for medical though, we dont.



The most expensive thing I've paid for recently is $3,000 for my daughter's braces. Canada cover that one?

My Sun Life insurance (my company pays for, not me) would have paid 85% of it. As well well as full cost for glasses(1x/18months), orthotic insoles(1x/year), massages (1x/month), and ALL prescribed medication costs me 1$.

If I get married and/or have kids, they are also covered under this policy, at, again, no charge to me.

Got anymore?

[Amber Lamps]

I would really love to hear the Canadian and American opinions on universal health care. Americans maybe you can enlighten me as to why the country seems so opposed and Canadians maybe you can shed some light on how it works here.

I personally love our system, I've lived in both and a good portion of why I came back to Canada was because of our health care system. I had gall bladder surgery, and then went back in a few days later with a raging infection. How much did the operation cost me? $0. How much did a week in the hospital on morphine, percoset and antibiotics cost $0. I just got to focus on getting better and not " how the hell am I going to pay for this ( even just a co-pay can be insane) I do pay more in taxes up here, but seriously the additional taxes is less than what I paid monthly for shitty insurance in the states. Plus prescriptions here are MUCH cheaper than in the U. S.

And in the states the people are already paying for the healthcare of people on welfare, gives no incentive to get off and get a job if you are going to lose your healthcare, dental and vision benefits. I saw it a million times where I worked.

I'm not going to bother to read the rest of the responses but I believe that a lot of the reason for resistance here is this question. If you had your surgery here, would you have gotten the infection? In other words, is Canadian health care inferior because all of the practitioners get paid less and the best/brightest choose other fields where the salary potential is better?

My GF is in school to be a physical therapist. It is an 8 year course but she will make six figures right out of school. In fact, she already has a position lined up. Would she still go to college for 8 years if the gov't decides that PTs are only allowed to make $50,000 per year?

I understand that we pay for medical for welfare recipients, do the rest of us want to also have that level of medical care?:idk:

[Apoc]

I'm not going to bother to read the rest of the responses but I believe that a lot of the reason for resistance here is this question. If you had your surgery here, would you have gotten the infection? In other words, is Canadian health care inferior because all of the practitioners get paid less and the best/brightest choose other fields where the salary potential is better?

My GF is in school to be a physical therapist. It is an 8 year course but she will make six figures right out of school. In fact, she already has a position lined up. Would she still go to college for 8 years if the gov't decides that PTs are only allowed to make $50,000 per year?

I understand that we pay for medical for welfare recipients, do the rest of us want to also have that level of medical care?:idk:

Doctors here do damn well. So do nurses, and other areas of the medical field.

Unless you condsider 2-300k not that well for a doctor.

You guys can pretend our HC system is horrible if you want. The rest of us who live with it, know better.

And i've never been turned away or made wait any ridiculous time for any procedure. Its pretty much a myth that you people use to villify and validate your silly opinions with.

[nhgunnut]

I'm not going to bother to read the rest of the responses but I believe that a lot of the reason for resistance here is this question. If you had your surgery here, would you have gotten the infection? In other words, is Canadian health care inferior because all of the practitioners get paid less and the best/brightest choose other fields where the salary potential is better?

My GF is in school to be a physical therapist. It is an 8 year course but she will make six figures right out of school. In fact, she already has a position lined up. Would she still go to college for 8 years if the gov't decides that PTs are only allowed to make $50,000 per year?

I understand that we pay for medical for welfare recipients, do the rest of us want to also have that level of medical care?:idk:
I don't think it is fair to say it is inferior, it is different in that it prioritizes access at the expense of choice and innovation. In perhaps an overly simplistic analogy the system buys everyone a Hyundai (a good car reliable with a good service culture but usually using 3 to 5 year old technology) and you have to pay for you neighbor's car no matter how bad he drives or how poorly he maintains it. The US system pushes choice and innovation at the expense of well, expense. Having experiences both I believe I get better care in the US. Also as I noted before since Canadians remain the number one consumer of Medical Tourism I am guessing that some Canadian have issues with their system as well.

I also think it a bit overly simplistic to imply that Canadian Health Care Professinal are less motivated because of income. I have worked with at least a hundred through the years, and thousands here in the states Damm few are are doing it for the money.
I will say that in some cases the choices of Canadian Health Care Professional are limited by the single payer system they are working in. Which is not to say your insurer doesn't limit some Choices as well. The difference here in the states is that I can simply change primary insurer. I couldn't do that in Canada I still had to pay for my neighbors care.

[CrazyKell]

Its pretty much a myth that you people use to villify and validate your silly opinions with.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

[cbrchick]

I'm not going to bother to read the rest of the responses but I believe that a lot of the reason for resistance here is this question. If you had your surgery here, would you have gotten the infection? In other words, is Canadian health care inferior because all of the practitioners get paid less and the best/brightest choose other fields where the salary potential is better?


Are you kidding me? Infection is a common risk factor post surgery. Doesn't matter who or where you get surgery, people get infection. By that logic you could say my father had inferior treatment for his Cancer at one of the most well known cancer hospitals in the world located in Houston, TX. He had infection post surgery and his Cancer came back.

He had zero complications following his stint with CA for the 3rd time here in my little Canadian hospital.

I'd say 99.9% of people don't go into the medical field for the money. There are far better ways to make more money and actually have a life. And the best and the brightest go into fields that suit them - from palliative care to cardiac surgery - not into which that pay more...

It's amazing what little first hand knowledge people have of our system and think it's inferior. Any American I've ever taken care of has been nothing but impressed with the care they received.

[sherri_chickie]

I think my infection ( it was never discovered where it started but it was not in the incision) was an opportunistic sinus infection that was previously asymptomatic, but that is just my opinion.

I went to the hospital, in wicked pain, was seen immediately, given 2 CAT scans x-rays and a butt load of morphine ( morphine good!) My treatment in the hospital was amazing, the doctors were great and the nurses so caring. I saw my doctor more than I saw Shon's doc when he had his accident ( in the states: saw him once, he was not even the one to tell us he was brain dead)

The money in medicine is good in both countries, people go into medicine for altruistic reasons more than financial, for the most part, but of course there are exceptions.

[Smittie61984]

Congrats. You still pay monthly insurance fees for medical though, we dont.


Are you serious? Do you really feel like you aren't paying anything for your medical care?

Everyone from Canada argues that their doctors make a ton of cash, their equipment is top notch, they provide great care to people and somehow they do it for less than American's pay through private insurance companies who are competing for your hard earned money? All three of those things costs a shit ton of money. Doctors aren't going to work for free, top notch equipment (probably from America or Japan) isn't cheap, and the hospital staff isn't going to work hard if they aren't making that much. And just because the doctor makes a funny joke or the nurse gives you an extra special sponge bath doesn't mean it's a better system.

We argue day in and day out on here about how if you want a good quality motorcycle/tv/blowjob you have to pay for it. Why is healthcare any different and if Canada is as good as the US then who is paying for this great service that God himself condones???

[Fleck750]

A

It's amazing what little first hand knowledge people have of our system and think it's inferior. Any American I've ever taken care of has been nothing but impressed with the care they received.

I personally don't feel it's inferior, just different. As stated somewhere above, Americans have an ingrained distrust of our gov't running things. The insurance system varies wildly now, Medicare is a nightmare, so throwing it in the hands of the idiots in Washington doesn't sit well with most of us.

[sherri_chickie]

Fleck750.. I can totally respect that, after all governments do have an innate ability to screw up almost anything they touch..lol

I have a friend who is Canadian but has been living in the states for 13 years or so. He has always had great insurance through work and has no problems with it, I think the problem starts when you don't have great insurance. I know some school divisions in the U.S won't pay for health benefits for teachers (found that out from a friend who moved from her state to texas to work because of that) My late husband always worked full time as an electrician and never had coverage through his work. That is where the problem lies, how do we cover those people?

[Fleck750]

Fleck750.. I can totally respect that, after all governments do have an innate ability to screw up almost anything they touch..lol

I have a friend who is Canadian but has been living in the states for 13 years or so. He has always had great insurance through work and has no problems with it, I think the problem starts when you don't have great insurance. I know some school divisions in the U.S won't pay for health benefits for teachers (found that out from a friend who moved from her state to texas to work because of that) My late husband always worked full time as an electrician and never had coverage through his work. That is where the problem lies, how do we cover those people?In all the places I've worked, I've had ONE place that I could actually afford the premiums. Most places were at least $40-$60 per week. Doesn't sound like much, but when you're only bringing home $300 a week, it's a lot.

I had no insurance when I had my m/c wreck. Total bill for 1.5 days stay, too many scans to count, 4 staples in my shin came to $27,000. Can I pay it? No. I tried to set a payment plan with them, but the hospital wanted it all paid in a year. Yeah. Right.

I would rather sit home and die before I'll go to a hospital again.

So, like 1/3 of all Americans, hospitals and doctors are something that is out of my reach.

[Smittie61984]

My late husband always worked full time as an electrician and never had coverage through his work. That is where the problem lies, how do we cover those people?

My old job of moving pool tables I was 10-99d (and only grossing about 22k) which is basically like working for yourself and you pay your taxes at the end of the year since nothing is taken out. I bought private health insurance for $150 a month (single with major surgery history of a splenectomy). Sounds like a lot but a lot of people spend more than that on their cell phone bill or cigarettes (which tend to put people into hospitals). I don't believe I ever met someone who couldn't afford health insurance if they gave up some luxuries of life.

One problem is by buying my own private health insurance I wasn't allowed to deduct the cost like people who work for a company that provide it. Such as if your weekly paycheck was say $500 and they take out $50 a week for insurance, the government only makes you pay taxes on $450. Without the reduction that 50 a week is $2600 a year extra the government will tax you (which for some can move you from a lower tax bracket to the next one up). At lets say 15% on that 2600 you spend roughly $400 extra a year in taxes vs someone who is using a company. I could have made $500 weekly and spent 475 on health insurance and I'd still pay taxes as if I made $500 a week. That's our government's way of encouraging dependency. A great fix would have been letting people who don't have work healthcare deduct the health insurance costs from their taxes.

We are also prohibited from buying insurance across state lines. I believe Alabama actually has only 1 major health insurance provider because of some government hacks who set the system up for political favors. Let it be where I can say fuck you to an insurance company here in Georgia and buy insurance from somewhere in California then that insurance company I told to fuck off is going to work on ways to make their company more appealing to consumers who can take their money wherever they want.

And the private sector is making huge strides in providing cheap healthcare. Walmart and Krogers have $4 a month prescriptions on generic drugs. Don't kid yourself, Walmart is loosing money on those drugs but are making it up by having you wonder around and buying stuff. Which to me it seems like everybody wins there. Drug companies are happy, Walmart is happy, and you are happy about that new 52" LCD you just bought where you can watch that lesbian on MSNBC bitch about the cost of healthcare and how the government needs to do something about it.

Oh yeah, then you have the walk in clinics that are popping up everywhere, with many of them 24 hours and cheap which then frees up our ERs which makes hospitals happy becuase they tend to want to tend to the auto-accident people who are insured and WILL pay the hospital.

There are tons of solutions but the problem is trying to get hte government to give up power. Blood from a stone would be easier.

[goof2]

We are also prohibited from buying insurance across state lines. I believe Alabama actually has only 1 major health insurance provider because of some government hacks who set the system up for political favors. Let it be where I can say fuck you to an insurance company here in Georgia and buy insurance from somewhere in California then that insurance company I told to fuck off is going to work on ways to make their company more appealing to consumers who can take their money wherever they want.

I agree with this 100% and listed it as one of the two things that healthcare reform must have if the politicians are actually serious in my earlier post. They keep bleating about how they only want a government option as a way to inject competition in to the health insurance market. At the same time they refuse to allow interstate purchasing of insurance. This single change would massively increase competition, it would be immediate, and wouldn't cost taxpayers a dime. Doing so would apparently be much too effective so the politicians want nothing to do with it.

As for comparing the American and Canadian systems, it is an interesting exercise, but ultimately means nothing in the context of healthcare reform in America. What is being proposed bears no resemblance to the system in Canada. Even if the bill gets passed as is the American system will still be closer to the old American system than Canada's system.

[Smittie61984]

I agree with this 100% and listed it as one of the two things that healthcare reform must have if the politicians are actually serious in my earlier post.

The Republicans actually have a bill that would allow people to puchase health insurance across state lines. For some odd reason that's not making the news or more importantly any headway in congress.

Of course where was this bill when the Republicans actually had power?

[Amber Lamps]

Doctors here do damn well. So do nurses, and other areas of the medical field.

Unless you condsider 2-300k not that well for a doctor.

You guys can pretend our HC system is horrible if you want. The rest of us who live with it, know better.

And i've never been turned away or made wait any ridiculous time for any procedure. Its pretty much a myth that you people use to villify and validate your silly opinions with.

You would do well to notice the "?" after my words which denote that they are questions...:lol:

I'm not saying that Canadian health care is inferior, I am merely asking a question. Although, I do know for certain that there have been cases of Canadians coming down here to get procedures done. Oh and $300,000 (is that Canadian money btw?:lol:) is great money unless people just on the other side of the border make $500,000 for the same job. I personally don't care what they do in regards to health care.

[Amber Lamps]

Are you kidding me? Infection is a common risk factor post surgery. Doesn't matter who or where you get surgery, people get infection. By that logic you could say my father had inferior treatment for his Cancer at one of the most well known cancer hospitals in the world located in Houston, TX. He had infection post surgery and his Cancer came back.

He had zero complications following his stint with CA for the 3rd time here in my little Canadian hospital.

I'd say 99.9% of people don't go into the medical field for the money. There are far better ways to make more money and actually have a life. And the best and the brightest go into fields that suit them - from palliative care to cardiac surgery - not into which that pay more...

It's amazing what little first hand knowledge people have of our system and think it's inferior. Any American I've ever taken care of has been nothing but impressed with the care they received.

Hello CANADA!!! There are these little items called question marks, they denote when the writer is asking a question. I could have sworn that you Canucks have them too... oh FUCK, I see what I did wrong. Let me try again.


''If you had your surgery here, would you have gotten the infection, EH? In other words, is Canadian health care inferior because all of the practitioners get paid less and the best/brightest choose other fields where the salary potential is better, EH?

[Amber Lamps]

Are you kidding me? Infection is a common risk factor post surgery. Doesn't matter who or where you get surgery, people get infection. By that logic you could say my father had inferior treatment for his Cancer at one of the most well known cancer hospitals in the world located in Houston, TX. He had infection post surgery and his Cancer came back.

He had zero complications following his stint with CA for the 3rd time here in my little Canadian hospital.

I'd say 99.9% of people don't go into the medical field for the money. There are far better ways to make more money and actually have a life. And the best and the brightest go into fields that suit them - from palliative care to cardiac surgery - not into which that pay more...

It's amazing what little first hand knowledge people have of our system and think it's inferior. Any American I've ever taken care of has been nothing but impressed with the care they received.

Um so if your boss came up to you tomorrow and told you that you were going to have to take a 50% pay cut you would say, "Oh that's okay because I only do this for the warm, fuzzy feeling I get from helping others.":lol:

[Smittie61984]

''If you had your surgery here, would you have gotten the infection, EH? In other words, is Canadian health care inferior because all of the practitioners get paid less and the best/brightest choose other fields where the salary potential is better, EH?

Hahahahahahaaahaha. I needed that after just watching the ending to Marley and Me.

I give you 2 stars for that one :boobs:

[sherri_chickie]

Firstly.. who says our doctors only make half of what American doctors do? Where's that statistic from?

Secondly "we" read the post about my infection as being accusatory that I wouldn't have gotten the infection in the states, because how the heck do we know if I would or would not have? I personally don't think I would have been approved to have the surgery in the states to be totally honest, as it was, it was elective here. ( no acute attacks)


I am not in any way saying that the current bill is the right way to go about bring universal healthcare to the US. I am sure that there are many ways of making sure that everyone has access to insured healthcare. If you have great private insurance, you should be able to opt to stay with it, no question there. Maybe there has to be a way to hold HMO's accountable for the procedures that they turn down that result in someone's death?

I am in a unique position in that I know many people from the U.S. who have lost spouses after both trauma and prolonged illness and I have heard several stories of how some of them are in serious financial difficulty, their life savings wiped out ( with insurance) or how their spouses were denied treatment and as a result died. This has not happened to everyone of course, but in Canada, this happens to NOBODY.

I think that the US needs to develop their OWN type of system that the country can run and manage, we are not a perfect model here, I don't claim that, but I for one think it pretty much works for Canada.

[Amber Lamps]

Firstly.. who says our doctors only make half of what American doctors do? Where's that statistic from?

Secondly "we" read the post about my infection as being accusatory that I wouldn't have gotten the infection in the states, because how the heck do we know if I would or would not have? I personally don't think I would have been approved to have the surgery in the states to be totally honest, as it was, it was elective here. ( no acute attacks)


I am not in any way saying that the current bill is the right way to go about bring universal healthcare to the US. I am sure that there are many ways of making sure that everyone has access to insured healthcare. If you have great private insurance, you should be able to opt to stay with it, no question there. Maybe there has to be a way to hold HMO's accountable for the procedures that they turn down that result in someone's death?

I am in a unique position in that I know many people from the U.S. who have lost spouses after both trauma and prolonged illness and I have heard several stories of how some of them are in serious financial difficulty, their life savings wiped out ( with insurance) or how their spouses were denied treatment and as a result died. This has not happened to everyone of course, but in Canada, this happens to NOBODY.

I think that the US needs to develop their OWN type of system that the country can run and manage, we are not a perfect model here, I don't claim that, but I for one think it pretty much works for Canada.

I lived in Germany for 3 years and was privy to my wife's health care plan and it seemed on the up and up. She went to the doctor whenever she pleased and was treated for whatever bothered her. In fact, when I got into an automobile accident, I stayed in a German hospital for a couple weeks before I was moved to an Army hospital.

Oh and my fiance' died because she couldn't afford health care and let her asthma get out of hand. She made too much money to get Medicare but not enough to afford the doctor bills... Funny, how with all of these "altruistic" health care professionals we have in this country, no one offered to help her for free.:idk:

[Smittie61984]

Maybe there has to be a way to hold HMO's accountable for the procedures that they turn down that result in someone's death?


I'm curious if there has ever been someone who died as a result of a procedure being denied. Even here in America, hospitals, doctors, etc can't deny a life saving procedure to anyone regardless of income, insurance or if they are an illegal alien who just murdered 100 police officers and 15 kittens.

[tommymac]

I'm curious if there has ever been someone who died as a result of a procedure being denied. Even here in America, hospitals, doctors, etc can't deny a life saving procedure to anyone regardless of income, insurance or if they are an illegal alien who just murdered 100 police officers and 15 kittens.

Actualy they can people cannot be turned away from the ER but say they need a tumor removed or something a doctor can refuse to do it if they wont get paid. its a little bit of a grey area though and you can throw out scenarios for or against it.

Tom

[Rangerscott]

I dont have health insurance cause it cost too much.

[Apoc]

Oh and my fiance' died because she couldn't afford health care and let her asthma get out of hand. She made too much money to get Medicare but not enough to afford the doctor bills... Funny, how with all of these "altruistic" health care professionals we have in this country, no one offered to help her for free.:idk:


So this is your example of how your system is better?

[101lifts2]

Hahahahahahaaahaha. I needed that after just watching the ending to Marley and Me.

I give you 2 stars for that one :boobs:

I watched that a week or so ago...cried when the dog died. lol

If you have no or limited healthcare insurance, Canada is for you!

If you have decent healthcare or good healthcare insurance, America is for you.

Bout sums it up.

[101lifts2]

I'm curious if there has ever been someone who died as a result of a procedure being denied. Even here in America, hospitals, doctors, etc can't deny a life saving procedure to anyone regardless of income, insurance or if they are an illegal alien who just murdered 100 police officers and 15 kittens.

Did not know about the kittens....:lol

[tommymac]

Did not know about the kittens....:lol

thats where I draw the line, cant be killing any innocent kittehs :lol:

Tom

[Apoc]

I watched that a week or so ago...cried when the dog died. lol

If you have no or limited healthcare insurance, Canada is for you!

If you have decent healthcare or good healthcare insurance, America is for you.

Bout sums it up.


if you fuckin' say so man...

You do realize that survival rates across the board are no better down there, than up here right?

Its funny how 50+% of Americans think your system is shit, and less than 5% of Canadians think ours is shit. Yet yours is better, because you guys are too blind to see past the end of your noses.

Our system is EXCELLENT! It has problems, but so do yours.

Show me evidence of the failures of our system, not just hearsay bullshit, and then you can have an opinion on how it works. But we've had tons of these threads here and on cf, and it boils down to one thing, when it comes to our system, you guys dont know what the fuck your talking about.

'Its socialized, its the devil!':lala::blah:

[tommymac]

if you fuckin' say so man...

You do realize that survival rates across the board are no better down there, than up here right?

Its funny how 50+% of Americans think your system is shit, and less than 5% of Canadians think ours is shit. Yet yours is better, because you guys are too blind to see past the end of your noses.

Our system is EXCELLENT! It has problems, but so do yours.

Show me evidence of the failures of our system, not just hearsay bullshit, and then you can have an opinion on how it works. But we've had tons of these threads here and on cf, and it boils down to one thing, when it comes to our system, you guys dont know what the fuck your talking about.

'Its socialized, its the devil!':lala::blah:


I am sure there are faults with the system up there as there is down here. We have a couple of docs here who trained in canada and now work here and have to adapt to the differences. they seem to think there are pros and cons with each system.

Ijust dont see it being fixed down here anytime soon.

tom

[cbrchick]

Hello CANADA!!! There are these little items called question marks, they denote when the writer is asking a question. I could have sworn that you Canucks have them too... oh FUCK, I see what I did wrong. Let me try again.


''If you had your surgery here, would you have gotten the infection, EH? In other words, is Canadian health care inferior because all of the practitioners get paid less and the best/brightest choose other fields where the salary potential is better, EH?

It's a stupid question and statement Tigger. Show's your lack of intelligence in asking it.

[cbrchick]

Um so if your boss came up to you tomorrow and told you that you were going to have to take a 50% pay cut you would say, "Oh that's okay because I only do this for the warm, fuzzy feeling I get from helping others.":lol:

Do you actually read anything before you post the crap...

"I'd say 99.9% of people don't go into the medical field for the money. There are far better ways to make more money and actually have a life. And the best and the brightest go into fields that suit them - from palliative care to cardiac surgery - not into which that pay more..."

- I don't have a "boss" that decides what I make :)
- While it's a living, I certainly could have choosen a different field that would have made me more money with less stress. Much like Tommy who works in the US...

A fuck it... Having a discussion with you is pointless. It's not like really care what you think.:lol

[wildchild]

I think the problem with the socialized coverage would end up being the rates that docs/pharmacies/and any med techs would charge to the gov't. rather then appreciating the fact they won't have to deal with no pays, they would suddenly be gettign paid for all care and the pay for them would be great.
a second problem is that WAY TOO MANY people here when given free anything tend to abuse it in an incredible way. people would be running little junior to the doctor everytime he forgot to wipe his ass enough for fear it may cause a rash. "doc could you please clean him properly?".
their justification for it would be "hey it's free we might as well use it right?"

Americans are very greedy and selfish and definitely want to make sure they get more out of any free system then their neighbor.

[tommymac]

I think the problem with the socialized coverage would end up being the rates that docs/pharmacies/and any med techs would charge to the gov't. rather then appreciating the fact they won't have to deal with no pays, they would suddenly be gettign paid for all care and the pay for them would be great.
a second problem is that WAY TOO MANY people here when given free anything tend to abuse it in an incredible way. people would be running little junior to the doctor everytime he forgot to wipe his ass enough for fear it may cause a rash. "doc could you please clean him properly?".
their justification for it would be "hey it's free we might as well use it right?"

Americans are very greedy and selfish and definitely want to make sure they get more out of any free system then their neighbor.

That already happens with medicaid, at least around here. I had one girl come in asking ONLY for a pregnancy test (in the emergency room no less) I told her you can buy one in the drug store, she said the ones here may be better. Told her we use the same ones you buy there, so you would rather spend several hundred on an er visit vs the 10 or 20 bucks they cost. She said I have medicaid they will pay for it. (read I will pay to see if your sorry ghetto as sis pregnant again:wtfru: )

Tom

[RACER X]

does canada have the "illegals" problem like we have? and do their illegals pay taxes?

[CrazyKell]

Do you actually read anything before you post the crap...

No I don't think he does.

The amount of idiocy I see in this thread is astounding.

Keep your system Americans. And keep your "rah rah rah" about it. Oh and while you're at it, keep on thinking you're in first and way out front. Thing is....you're so far ahead you're actually last! :skep:

[tommymac]

No I don't think he does.

The amount of idiocy I see in this thread is astounding.

Keep your system Americans. And keep your "rah rah rah" about it. Oh and while you're at it, keep on thinking you're in first and way out front. Thing is....you're so far ahead you're actually last! :skep:

I think youre getting a lil ahead of yourself too. Grantred things arent the best here but its far from being last either.

A lot of my patients dont have insurance so we need ot get creative in getting stuff done. Fortunatley we have an amazing social worker, she sure as hell doesnt do it for the money either :lol: but she can pull strings to get meds and helps some people get insurance so they can be seen in the clinics.

The biggest challenge in working in an underserved area is making do with less. I woul dprolly go into shock if I worked in a cush suburban hospital where things actualy get done :lol:

Tom

[Amber Lamps]

So this is your example of how your system is better?

Artard... I never said our system was better. Take that chip off your shoulder, YEESH!!!

My father died of cancer partially because he was mis-diagnosed with...high blood pressure! It wasn't until 6 months later that they realized that he had a tumor growing on his jugular. I myself have been grossly misdiagnosed by the medical profession in this country. I'm sorry guys but I don't trust doctors even a little bit. AFAIK they are all a bunch of money grubbing quacks that don't have any clue what they are talking about half the time! Seriously. Heck, maybe putting them all on a salaries would be a good thing as it might slow them down and allow them to actually spend some fucking time with patients instead of running them through an assembly line.

[CrazyKell]

I think youre getting a lil ahead of yourself too. Grantred things arent the best here but its far from being last either.

I've never commented on your system. I have very little knowledge of it save for a friend wrecking at the Gap and my brother having a small cut stitched up when we were on vacation.

I just find it so strange that a lot of you staunchly defend a system, put down one you know very little about, and for what? Your system has major faults and doesn't work for a lot of people (according to what's been posted in this thread). Odd. :scratch:

[tommymac]

I've never commented on your system. I have very little knowledge of it save for a friend wrecking at the Gap and my brother having a small cut stitched up when we were on vacation.

I just find it so strange that a lot of you staunchly defend a system, put down one you know very little about, and for what? Your system has major faults and doesn't work for a lot of people (according to what's been posted in this thread). Odd. :scratch:

I havent put down the canadian system since i know little to nothing about it and have readily admitted ours needs work and thats comming from someone who is in the middle of all of it. I think the problem here is too many special interests at stake between the drug and insurance companies. Theyre happy because theyre getting rich off of the current system.

[azoomm]

I've never commented on your system. I have very little knowledge of it save for a friend wrecking at the Gap and my brother having a small cut stitched up when we were on vacation.

I just find it so strange that a lot of you staunchly defend a system, put down one you know very little about, and for what? Your system has major faults and doesn't work for a lot of people (according to what's been posted in this thread). Odd. :scratch:

I don't know that it's about defending the system. We know the system is fucked up. It's about having a known evil vs. having an unknown evil. We know the current pitfalls and the ways to work around them - with the new plan, not only do we not really know what evils we'll have to deal with, we get to pay for everyone else to have it too :wink:

[Tmall]

Don't you already pay for those who can't afford coverage? Do you think the hospital and insurance companies absorb that?

At least this way everybody pays for it..

[marko138]

I havent put down the canadian system since i know little to nothing about it and have readily admitted ours needs work and thats comming from someone who is in the middle of all of it. I think the problem here is too many special interests at stake between the drug and insurance companies. Theyre happy because theyre getting rich off of the current system.
The bottom line is Big Biz is in the pocket of the Government. A universal healthcare system in the United States will reflect that for sure. Look at every other instance of the Feds running something. It's ALWAYS about money and who WILL get rich, and SOMEONE will get rich.

[tommymac]

The bottom line is Big Biz is in the pocket of the Government. A universal healthcare system in the United States will reflect that for sure. Look at every other instance of the Feds running something. It's ALWAYS about money and who WILL get rich, and SOMEONE will get rich.

I think the thing is now a lot of guys already are rich and want to keep it that way. If it changes the gravy train may end for some.

Tom

[marko138]

I think the thing is now a lot of guys already are rich and want to keep it that way. If it changes the gravy train may end for some.

Tom
That too.

[goof2]

I've never commented on your system. I have very little knowledge of it save for a friend wrecking at the Gap and my brother having a small cut stitched up when we were on vacation.

I just find it so strange that a lot of you staunchly defend a system, put down one you know very little about, and for what? Your system has major faults and doesn't work for a lot of people (according to what's been posted in this thread). Odd. :scratch:

You have never commented on our system outside of saying it is last. Sounds like "putting down one you know very little about". I also haven't seen many people "staunchly defend" our system. My impression is most in this thread have stated it needs work. My complaint is the "work" that is being proposed seems to have more to do with politics than medicine or health insurance.

Every system I am aware of has major faults. The faults in America's system and Canada's system are different. What is rarely discussed is the way in which these faults also contribute to each system's strengths. I think some of the Americans who oppose healthcare reform are concerned that the way in which the faults are fixed will have the side effect of "fixing" the strengths.

As I said before, the debate about Canadian vs. American healthcare is useless except for the intellectual exercise. Even if the reforms that have been proposed are enacted fully the American system will have little similarity to Canada's. Either system may be better, what remains is they will not operate the same anytime soon.

[Tmall]

Yet, ppl are scared of change.

Azoom says she doesn't want to pay for other, but again you're already paying for those who can't afford it.


What exactly are you guys opposed to with the new system?

Everything I've read just seems to be the same talking points.

[karl_1052]

Hello CANADA!!! There are these little items called question marks, they denote when the writer is asking a question. I could have sworn that you Canucks have them too... oh FUCK, I see what I did wrong. Let me try again.


''If you had your surgery here, would you have gotten the infection, EH? In other words, is Canadian health care inferior because all of the practitioners get paid less and the best/brightest choose other fields where the salary potential is better, EH?

:lol:

I don't think they say "eh" out east, it is mainly an Ottawa valley thing.

[karl_1052]

does canada have the "illegals" problem like we have? and do their illegals pay taxes?

There are no illegals in Canada. Everybody is welcome, but it is too cold for Mexicans.:lol:

there are pros and cons with each system.

This is the only true statement in this whole thread.

[goof2]

Yet, ppl are scared of change.

Azoom says she doesn't want to pay for other, but again you're already paying for those who can't afford it.


What exactly are you guys opposed to with the new system?

Everything I've read just seems to be the same talking points.

We currently pay for the emergency life saving care of those who cannot afford it. Under this bill we will be paying for all care for those who cannot afford it. Can you see where there might be a difference in those two numbers?

I am not opposed to change if it is likely to work. I don't think this bill falls in that category. More than anything I am concerned that an unintended consequence will be a serious decline in medical innovations coming out of this country. That shouldn't just concern America, but the rest of the world as well.

[tommymac]

We currently pay for the emergency life saving care of those who cannot afford it. Under this bill we will be paying for all care for those who cannot afford it. Can you see where there might be a difference in those two numbers?

I am not opposed to change if it is likely to work. I don't think this bill falls in that category. More than anything I am concerned that an unintended consequence will be a serious decline in medical innovations coming out of this country. That shouldn't just concern America, but the rest of the world as well.

I am not sure if its we, directly or indirectly with emergency care. I know for alot of the illegals and uninsured they just dotn pay the bills so I dont know if the hospital eats the cost or its spread out to the rest of us.

Where i work you sort of need insurance but at kings county hospital across the street you dont, the city/hhc foots the bill for all of them.

[goof2]

I am not sure if its we, directly or indirectly with emergency care. I know for alot of the illegals and uninsured they just dotn pay the bills so I dont know if the hospital eats the cost or its spread out to the rest of us.

Where i work you sort of need insurance but at kings county hospital across the street you dont, the city/hhc foots the bill for all of them.

Those who pay their medical bills pay for it. Find out how much King's County bills patients for syringes, band-aids, etc. I will bet the numbers are outrageous compared to their costs. From what I have seen patients without insurance are billed around double compared to what insurance actually pays. These are the typical ways to make up for those that don't pay their bill from what I understand.

[tommymac]

Those who pay their medical bills pay for it. Find out how much King's County bills patients for syringes, band-aids, etc. I will bet the numbers are outrageous compared to their costs. From what I have seen patients without insurance are billed around double compared to what insurance actually pays. These are the typical ways to make up for those that don't pay their bill from what I understand.

I think they also overbill figuring they will at least get something back opposed to nothing.

When I was still at ups I had passed out from heat exhaustion in the warehouse and gottaken to the hospital. The money hungry quacks let me rest, checked my blood and gave me some IV saline. All in all no biggie, apparently the work ins kinda screwed up and within a month I had a collection agency harassing me. I wound up paying out of pocket then got reimbursed. HR guy got an earful from me as well as management for that one.

Tom

[goof2]

I think they also overbill figuring they will at least get something back opposed to nothing.

When I was still at ups I had passed out from heat exhaustion in the warehouse and gottaken to the hospital. The money hungry quacks let me rest, checked my blood and gave me some IV saline. All in all no biggie, apparently the work ins kinda screwed up and within a month I had a collection agency harassing me. I wound up paying out of pocket then got reimbursed. HR guy got an earful from me as well as management for that one.

Tom

I'm guessing the bill was a hell of a lot more than what you thought it should have been. This is how the system is currently set up to work. Those who do pay end up paying out the nose to make up for the people who tell the collection agency to go screw.

[101lifts2]

if you fuckin' say so man...

You do realize that survival rates across the board are no better down there, than up here right?

Its funny how 50+% of Americans think your system is shit, and less than 5% of Canadians think ours is shit. Yet yours is better, because you guys are too blind to see past the end of your noses.

Our system is EXCELLENT! It has problems, but so do yours.

Show me evidence of the failures of our system, not just hearsay bullshit, and then you can have an opinion on how it works. But we've had tons of these threads here and on cf, and it boils down to one thing, when it comes to our system, you guys dont know what the fuck your talking about.

'Its socialized, its the devil!':lala::blah:

Dude the person with the better insurance plan will get better care. In Canada, if it is all the same, you can only expect standardized care since everyone in the country is in the pool. In the U.S a cash paying or a good PPO insurance customer can go to any doctor and usually have any surgery in a MAX of a few weeks or immediately if life threathening. It is simply all about money. If there is a waiting list in Canada for a hip replacement, can you pay a doctor out of pocket to do the surgery? Or does one go to the U.S.?

I just got full blood tests done (I do this every 6 months) because I tell my doctor I want them. I don't need a reason. I have a PPO insurance plan with a 300 deductable per year with a 10% charge for each visit. You want good care with limited waiting? You need to pay for it. It is not very hard.

The 50% of Americans that think it's shit are the same 50% that do not pay any Federal Income taxes. The other 50% (like me) think the system is great. So...why should I be for a nationalized health care plan when the same non-paying 50% will still pay nothing BUT I will end up paying more? Many of these people are illegal Mexicans or entitlement people who don't give a fuck about their health anyways.

[Smittie61984]

I am not sure if its we, directly or indirectly with emergency care. I know for alot of the illegals and uninsured they just dotn pay the bills so I dont know if the hospital eats the cost or its spread out to the rest of us.

Where i work you sort of need insurance but at kings county hospital across the street you dont, the city/hhc foots the bill for all of them.

I'm guessing on the uninsured/illegals who visit the emergency room for a life threatning emergency, the hospital or an insurance company of the hospital eats the cost. The states may also pay the cost being the hospital is forced to treat those in an Emergency situation so to possibly justify what is essentially forced labor they pay the hospitals for it if the person bails on the bills.

And if you visit an ER (with insurance or not) for something minor like an ear infection (like I did on Halloween night) they take your drivers license and information. If they take you then I assume that they will try to get money from you like any loan place would and that is to harrass you for it. If an illegal alien or uninsured person visits the ER for something non-life threatning then I'd think they'd be turned away unless the hospital is willing to take the chance of the people actually paying. If so then that should be up to the hospital to cover for taking the risk.

[tommymac]

I'm guessing on the uninsured/illegals who visit the emergency room for a life threatning emergency, the hospital or an insurance company of the hospital eats the cost. The states may also pay the cost being the hospital is forced to treat those in an Emergency situation so to possibly justify what is essentially forced labor they pay the hospitals for it if the person bails on the bills.

And if you visit an ER (with insurance or not) for something minor like an ear infection (like I did on Halloween night) they take your drivers license and information. If they take you then I assume that they will try to get money from you like any loan place would and that is to harrass you for it. If an illegal alien or uninsured person visits the ER for something non-life threatning then I'd think they'd be turned away unless the hospital is willing to take the chance of the people actually paying. If so then that should be up to the hospital to cover for taking the risk.

Thats a huge no no, we are not allowed to turn anyone away, although some are discouraged from actualy making it an official visit. :whistle:

The Er is a double edged sword as far as making money. The Er itself usualy costs the hospital money when a lot of stuff is done and they dont get paid.

But in our case we have helped build up the hospital as a whole by funneling a lot of these patients into various clinics for whatever their problems are.

Also a lo tof the Er journals are talking about different ways to help quell the overcrowding and long wait times by trying to get rid of the people who are there withthe sniffles or other non emergent stuff. Big problem is the leagality of all of it and a lot of CYA if you send someone away and something goes south.

Tom

[cbrchick]

Dude the person with the better insurance plan will get better care. In Canada, if it is all the same, you can only expect standardized care since everyone in the country is in the pool.

What is your definition of "standardized" care? If you mean everyone gets treated for their cancer, life threatening, chronic or acute disease irrespective of income, then yes, you are right.

I work in an emergency department - I see everything. So I find it funny you think you are an expert on what medical care and the standard of that care that people in this country receive.

You have NO IDEA on what standard is....

Let me give you an example.

Cost of transport via Life Flight - minimal
Cost of cardiac cath during acute heart attack - zero
Cost of hip replacement, CT's, MRI's, Xrays, blood tests - zero
Cost of Trauma team to save your ass post motorcycle accident - zero
Cost for stay in ICU - zero
Cost to have specialists work on you for months - zero
Cost to have a child with special needs taken care of in hospital - zero
Cost of antibiotics, special infusion devices, external hearts, pace makers, skin grafts, plastic surgery post accident....etc.
Cost to have a public health nurse follow your child's growth for 6 years - zero

Yes we pay higher taxes to support our health care. Yes our system needs work. But, the cost to the average person that finds themselves in the need of medical care will not bankrupt them.

Accidents happen and really shitty things happen to good people. Medical insurance will not prevent you from getting sick. I'd rather pay higher taxes so that my family, my friends can get whatever they need if the situation should arise.

Sadly, since our standard of care is so good, we do a lot for people that don't deserve it. I have to give everyone the same treatment, even though some bring on their own demise and do nothing to better their situations. They def. drain the system and resources. That part bugs all of us a lot.

But when you've been diagnosed with Cancer, your 36 years old with 2 children and a wife that loves you...and your going to die...It's kinda nice in a f*cked up way that your family wont have to pay for your death years after it happens.

[RACER X]

Accidents happen and really shitty things happen to good people. Medical insurance will not prevent you from getting sick. I'd rather pay higher taxes so that my family, my friends can get whatever they need if the situation should arise.

.

do you mind paying for pedro and his 10 kids and/or laquanda and her 5?

[tommymac]

do you mind paying for pedro and his 10 kids and/or laquanda and her 5?

We do here :(

Tom

[RACER X]

We do here :(

Tom

thats kinda where my question way back was asking, does canada have 10-11 mil illegals, no telling how many pay taxes. let alone the generational freeloaders we have.

[tommymac]

thats kinda where my question way back was asking, does canada have 10-11 mil illegals, no telling how many pay taxes. let alone the generational freeloaders we have.

I dont think they have the problem with illegals that we do here but am sure they have a lot of dead weight members of society like we do.

Tom

[RACER X]

US population 308,109,000
CA " 33,869,000

we prolly have more freeloaders then they have population. lol

[Papa_Complex]

I know you seem sold a bill of goods, that our system is bad - and Canada good. I get that.

In much the same way that you are sold a bill of good that our system is poor and fraught with bureaucracy, that can see a government official decide whether you deserve to be treated or not. It's amazing the number of lies I hear about our system from American sources, on a daily basis. Sure, there are waits for elective surgery and non-critical care. You're not going to die up here because you can't afford a treatment though.

The simple truth is that Americans are too resistant to a system of true 'universal' health care for it to work down there, using the Canadian model. It will no more work there, than American style democracy will work in Afghanistan or Iraq. A compromise system is what is required. Those who choose to pay for comprehensive health care coverage would have a portion of their payments funnelled off, in order to help provide low cost health care for those who can't afford it.

But the problems in your system are more fundamental than that. Even if you have health care coverage, you had better not get seriously ill. The co-pays, alone, will pauper you.

The upshot is that each system excels in its own way. Ours can be improved. So can yours.

US population 308,109,000
CA " 33,869,000

we prolly have more freeloaders then they have population. lol

Perhaps you do, but characterizing all people who can't afford health care as 'freeloaders' is disingenuous.

[Tmall]

Its not like everybody is unemployed willfully.

Wink wink ed.

[azoomm]

The current package they are drafting will be paid for in a combination of ways... the "savings" from medicare, one % to those using it, another % to those not using it, and a whopping % to those making a large reported income... it's more like Robin Hood. There's even a proposed excise tax on insurers of employer-sponsored health plans. Interesting to have those taking people out of the system pay for those in the system....

[RACER X]

Its not like everybody is unemployed willfully.

Wink wink ed.

got ins. after i get laid off, wink back.........

and i'm talkin of generational freeloaders vs in-between workers......hell we have more people unemployed at this time then CA has total population.

[goof2]

But the problems in your system are more fundamental than that. Even if you have health care coverage, you had better not get seriously ill. The co-pays, alone, will pauper you.

And here you are being sold a bill of goods about our healthcare system. This is only the case if your insurance is not particularly good. The value of anecdotal evidence is limited, but I know a number of people who have been seriously ill (primarily various cancers as well as some childbirth issues) and it hasn't come close to making any of them broke. Personally I had shoulder surgery requiring 3 months of rehabilitation. Total cost to me for everything was around $400. Sure, it happens to some people, but nowhere close to a majority.

The upshot is that each system excels in its own way. Ours can be improved. So can yours.

I agree that our system can be improved, as I have stated repeatedly. I don't think this bill will do it though.

[goof2]

The current package they are drafting will be paid for in a combination of ways...

Do you really believe that?

[askmrjesus]

I just got full blood tests done (I do this every 6 months) because I tell my doctor I want them. I don't need a reason.

I think people with high risk homosexual lifestyles, should have to pay more for health care than I do. I don't ask for blood tests for no apparent reason.

The 50% of Americans that think it's shit are the same 50% that do not pay any Federal Income taxes. The other 50% (like me) think the system is great. So...why should I be for a nationalized health care plan when the same non-paying 50% will still pay nothing BUT I will end up paying more? Many of these people are illegal Mexicans or entitlement people who don't give a fuck about their health anyways.

50% of Americans think you're an idiot.

Like you, I have no basis for this number. It just sounded right.

Half the population is under 20, over 65, or unemployed. I doubt they all have the same views on health care. I also doubt many of them are "illegal Mexicans". Why would anyone pretend to be a Mexican? It makes no sense.

The reason it makes no sense, is that there are roughly 20 million illegal aliens in the US. There are 308 million people in the US (more or less). Do the math. With or without illegal aliens, our system still needs improvement.

We might as well just blame the Jews. It works great, and it's been a while.

JC

[Papa_Complex]

And here you are being sold a bill of goods about our healthcare system. This is only the case if your insurance is not particularly good. The value of anecdotal evidence is limited, but I know a number of people who have been seriously ill (primarily various cancers as well as some childbirth issues) and it hasn't come close to making any of them broke. Personally I had shoulder surgery requiring 3 months of rehabilitation. Total cost to me for everything was around $400. Sure, it happens to some people, but nowhere close to a majority.

Prior to the credit melt-down, health care costs were your nation's primary cause of insolvency. That points to a pretty large problem. Our problem is excessive wait times for non-critical operations.

I agree that our system can be improved, as I have stated repeatedly. I don't think this bill will do it though.

You may well be right. Even I don't have the patience to read through the whole thing and digest it, and I used to read religious and mythological works for fun.

[azoomm]

We might as well just blame the Jews. It works great, and it's been a while.

JC

I think you're on to something.

I wish I had the spare time to write legislation. I know you put the challenge out a while ago... I remember seeing it in another thread about healthcare.

The tough part is introducing something that is looking out for the village when the village doesn't know what it wants. It's all really based on a lot of "what-if's" which is what insurance has always banked on.

Goof - sorry I didn't do a direct quote over what I paraphrased... sorry if I should believe a forum instead.

[karl_1052]

Cost of transport via Life Flight - $45.00
Cost of hip replacement, CT's, MRI's, Xrays, blood tests - $0
Cost of Trauma team to save your ass post motorcycle accident - $0
Cost for stay in ICU - $0
Cost to have specialists work on you for 2 months - $0
Cost of antibiotics, special infusion devices, external hearts, pace makers, skin grafts, plastic surgery post accident....etc. $0


Ask me how I know.;)

do you mind paying for pedro and his 10 kids and/or laquanda and her 5?

It's too cold for them here.

But we do have a huge population of Immigrants from other nations, as well as a large population of Natives that do not work.

Comparing population is useless. You also have 10 times the number of tax payers contributing to the system.

[shmike]

Comparing population is useless. You also have 10 times the number of tax payers contributing to the system.

That's the point.

I'd bet we don't.

[RACER X]

But we do have a huge population of Immigrants from other nations, as well as a large population of Natives that do not work.



from WIKI

"There is no credible information available on illegal immigration in Canada. Estimates range between 35,000 and 120,000 illegal immigrants in Canada.[13] "

~34 mil people, 120,000 illegals
~308 mil, 20mil illegals(according to JC)........

wonder how your system would hold up?

[karl_1052]

from WIKI

"There is no credible information available on illegal immigration in Canada. Estimates range between 35,000 and 120,000 illegal immigrants in Canada.[13] "

~34 mil people, 120,000 illegals
~308 mil, 20mil illegals(according to JC)........

wonder how your system would hold up?

We don't have many illegals, because they become "landed imiigrants" as soon as they hit Canadian soil.

[Papa_Complex]

We don't have many illegals, because they become "landed imiigrants" as soon as they hit Canadian soil.

Or they become "refugee claimants." An ex-girlfriend of mine, years back, used to hate working the Air India planes at the Toronto airport because the toilets would frequently be clogged with burnt passports.

[goof2]

Prior to the credit melt-down, health care costs were your nation's primary cause of insolvency. That points to a pretty large problem. Our problem is excessive wait times for non-critical operations.

That many bankruptcies have been caused by healthcare doesn't mean healthcare causes a lot of bankruptcies. There is a flaw in your logic.

You may well be right. Even I don't have the patience to read through the whole thing and digest it, and I used to read religious and mythological works for fun.

Nor do I. Even if I did have the patience to do it the future of the bill will have already been decided by the time I was done. The fact that two components I personally feel would accomplish more than any direct government involvement are being left out leads me to my conclusion.

[goof2]

Goof - sorry I didn't do a direct quote over what I paraphrased... sorry if I should believe a forum instead.

I wasn't calling in to question what you posted. I was calling in to question the government's track record for 1) estimating the cost of social programs (or defense procurement, public works projects, etc.), 2) estimating the savings to be generated by reform (being relied on from both Medicare and the regular system). Estimates are just that and the government hasn't given me much reason to trust theirs.

[azoomm]

I wasn't calling in to question what you posted. I was calling in to question the government's track record for 1) estimating the cost of social programs (or defense procurement, public works projects, etc.), 2) estimating the savings to be generated by reform (being relied on from both Medicare and the regular system). Estimates are just that and the government hasn't given me much reason to trust theirs.

:dthumb:

Roger that. That's why "savings" have me all hinky about it and the thought that the "savings" will pay for a new program. It's also hinky saying that people with "inadequate" insurance plans will have to pay x% in taxes... they have yet to define adequate and inadequate.

*sigh*

[101lifts2]

I think people with high risk homosexual lifestyles, should have to pay more for health care than I do. I don't ask for blood tests for no apparent reason....

When you eat 350 grams of protein a day with other volumizing supplements, you neeed to monitor peridoic liver and kidney function. The typical eat when you are hungry a buck 120 soakin wet guy isn't going to request blood work. In fact the only time he would care is if there is a problem, though usually then the damage is already done.

...50% of Americans think you're an idiot....

Someone else posted the 50% number, I went with it. Suck it up.

...Half the population is under 20, over 65, or unemployed. I doubt they all have the same views on health care. I also doubt many of them are "illegal Mexicans". Why would anyone pretend to be a Mexican? It makes no sense.

The reason it makes no sense, is that there are roughly 20 million illegal aliens in the US. There are 308 million people in the US (more or less). Do the math. With or without illegal aliens, our system still needs improvement.....

I'll make this simple for you because you like to tout numbers which to me is not relevant here. Americans understand that the healthcare system needs improvement, but they also understand that whatever the government does will end up taking more taxpaper money for a solution that usually doesn't work well. The people who want free or subsidized healthcare are going to vote for the congressman who votes for a bill which gives them free/subsidized healthcare. Pretty simply concept. There are more poor people in the U.S. then rich. If you simply get these people to vote (ACORN assisted), then you can guarantee they will vote for the one (usually the liberal) who gives them the most free shit regardless of things like national debt or shifting the burden to the rich.

[sherri_chickie]

My dollar quotes are based on either what I paid myself in the states or what my best friend is currently paying. As teachers you would think we had decent medical but it sounds like we really had the shifty end of the stick. My former sister in law has a $10000deductable every year ... Ouch!

[cbrchick]

When you eat 350 grams of protein a day with other volumizing supplements, you neeed to monitor peridoic liver and kidney function. The typical eat when you are hungry a buck 120 soakin wet guy isn't going to request blood work. In fact the only time he would care is if there is a problem, though usually then the damage is already done.


Funny...if you were honest with your doctor about your lifestyle, you wouldn't have to request your own blood work to check for hepatic/renal failure.

Sounds like a great standard of care if your more concerned about ARF than your quack.

[Homeslice]

You may well be right. Even I don't have the patience to read through the whole thing and digest it, and I used to read religious and mythological works for fun.

Which is the biggest reason to vote No on it. I bet only a handful of our "leaders" know everything that's in it.

[101lifts2]

What is your definition of "standardized" care? If you mean everyone gets treated for their cancer, life threatening, chronic or acute disease irrespective of income, then yes, you are right.

I work in an emergency department - I see everything. So I find it funny you think you are an expert on what medical care and the standard of that care that people in this country receive. .....

Standardized Care = The same care across the board regardless of income. I never said it was substandard care, but when you have to pay for the care of your entire population, you inevitably will have to ration or wait longer for a particular procedure.

The issue I have with nationalized health care is that it assumes all people have equal societal worth and should be treated as such. That is simply not the case.

[Papa_Complex]

That many bankruptcies have been caused by healthcare doesn't mean healthcare causes a lot of bankruptcies. There is a flaw in your logic.

That's a rather neat turn of phrase, that's a complete non sequitur.

[101lifts2]

Funny...if you were honest with your doctor about your lifestyle, you wouldn't have to request your own blood work to check for hepatic/renal failure.

Sounds like a great standard of care if your more concerned about ARF than your quack.

Yes my doctor does know what I eat and yes he DID recommend blood work 2x a year. In fact this last time he had to remind me and I just had it done. Called me 2 days later with the results. Looks like I have to cut out the 12 eggs a day for a while..:lol

I started to up my protein to 450grams/day, but my liver/kidneys didn't like it. I then tried 400 and while a better result, was still not good. My system is happy on 350 grams or less granted I'm drinking 1 gallon of water per day. I used the tests more as a measurement of what my body limits are. Take it FWIW...

[goof2]

That's a rather neat turn of phrase, that's a complete non sequitur.

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it is a non sequitur. What I was saying is the bankruptcy rate in a year due to health issues (not just healthcare costs), according to the study where all this crap started, is around two and a half households per thousand. That is not a lot of bankruptcies.

If you actually read the study your "primary cause of insolvency" statistic came from healthcare costs were not the primary cause of insolvency (bankruptcy). Health issues, and the resulting loss of income, were the primary cause of bankruptcy. Only a bit more than half of those who specifically stated medical issues were the reason for their bankruptcy owed more than $5000 or 10% of their income. The flip side is many of these people were declaring bankruptcy over medical debt of less than $5000.

The most common reason given by those who responded to the survey was loosing 2 or more weeks of income due to an illness or becoming permanently disabled, neither of which are covered under standard health insurance. It sounds to me like the more common problem was people living paycheck to paycheck rather than anything to do with the medical system itself. This problem is not something that will be remedied by healthcare reform.

To be clear about the question I am going to ask, it is not a loaded question. I do not know and am genuinely curious. Does the national health insurance program in Canada come with short term or long term disability? Social Security here provides long term disability but I don't believe the monthly stipend is significant.

[Papa_Complex]

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it is a non sequitur. What I was saying is the bankruptcy rate in a year due to health issues (not just healthcare costs), according to the study where all this crap started, is around two and a half households per thousand. That is not a lot of bankruptcies.

If you actually read the study your "primary cause of insolvency" statistic came from healthcare costs were not the primary cause of insolvency (bankruptcy). Health issues, and the resulting loss of income, were the primary cause of bankruptcy. Only a bit more than half of those who specifically stated medical issues were the reason for their bankruptcy owed more than $5000 or 10% of their income. The flip side is many of these people were declaring bankruptcy over medical debt of less than $5000.

The most common reason given by those who responded to the survey was loosing 2 or more weeks of income due to an illness or becoming permanently disabled, neither of which are covered under standard health insurance. It sounds to me like the more common problem was people living paycheck to paycheck rather than anything to do with the medical system itself. This problem is not something that will be remedied by healthcare reform.

To be clear about the question I am going to ask, it is not a loaded question. I do not know and am genuinely curious. Does the national health insurance program in Canada come with short term or long term disability? Social Security here provides long term disability but I don't believe the monthly stipend is significant.

It was a non sequitur because your statement stated in the first part that something was equal then in the second part, after flipping the words, stated that they were not equal.

In Canada our health care system does not include short or long term disability, but our social safety net effectively does. For example Employment Insurance can bridge, for a time, when someone is incapable of working. One the occasion when I had to collect myself, due to a riding injury, I was receiving 65% of my previous salary while not having to pay any medical bills. Other social programmes kick in when EI runs out.

Many employers provide supplemental coverage, as does my current employer, which can include short and long term disability. I also have a dental plan, coverage for travel, upgrade to semi-private room....

[goof2]

It was a non sequitur because your statement stated in the first part that something was equal then in the second part, after flipping the words, stated that they were not equal.

My point in doing so was to demonstrate the non sequitur in your own statement. That the primary cause of bankruptcies is healthcare costs (which is a fallacy to begin with) is only a "pretty large problem" if it is causing a lot of bankruptcies. Two and a half families per thousand is the distribution of those who claim "health issues" as their primary reason for declaring bankruptcy. When the cause is actually reduced to those self reporting on a survey medical debts of over $5000 or 10% that number comes down to less than 1 family per thousand. Less than a 10th of a percent isn't, to me, a lot.

My statement is only a non sequiter if your statement holds up, which I don't believe it does.

[Papa_Complex]

If so, then you failed. A statement that is internally self contradictory shows nothing.

[goof2]

If so, then you failed. A statement that is internally self contradictory shows nothing.

Reread it, it isn't contradictory. Maybe you are getting confused by the wording. Does it make more sense as "The fact that many bankruptcies have been caused by healthcare doesn't mean healthcare causes a lot of bankruptcies."?

[Papa_Complex]

Reread it, it isn't contradictory. Maybe you are getting confused by the wording. Does it make more sense as "The fact that many bankruptcies have been caused by healthcare doesn't mean healthcare causes a lot of bankruptcies."?

And what is the "cause" that's being stated in your argument?

[goof2]

And what is the "cause" that's being stated in your argument?

Healthcare, but that is immaterial to an argument about the logic of the statement. It could be credit cards, car loans, or doritos budget and it would remain the same.

I think where we are diverging is you are interpreting the second portion "healthcare causes a lot of bankruptcies" differently than I intended. I did not mean healthcare causes a lot of the bankruptcies that occur, that was covered in the first portion. What I am trying to demonstrate is the difference between proportion (first part) and often it actually occurs (second part).

Using made up numbers for demonstration purposes, say 70% of all bankruptcies in the US are caused by medical bills (proportion, first part of my statement, sounds like a lot), but if there are only 10 bankruptcies in the US per year, only 7 bankruptcies are caused by medical bills (actual occurrences, second part of my statement, not a lot). Does it make more sense now?

[Papa_Complex]

Your statement was:

health care == bankruptcies

bankruptcies =/= heathcare

If that wasn't what you meant, then you need to work on your wording. Changing the position of congruencies in an equation doesn't alter the value of them.

[goof2]

Your statement was:

health care == bankruptcies

bankruptcies =/= heathcare

If that wasn't what you meant, then you need to work on your wording. Changing the position of congruencies in an equation doesn't alter the value of them.

This is true if what you described above is the only possible interpretation of the statement. There are other possibilities. While I agree that my wording of the initial statement could have been better I would have thought explaining it 3 times would have made it clearer.:idk:

Regardless of the wording of my statement, your original statement was factually incorrect (stating medical costs rather than medical issues as the primary cause of bankruptcies) as well as logically incorrect (assuming a large proportion of bankruptcies = a large number of bankruptcies). Do you understand why or do I need to explain it further?

[Smittie61984]

Cost of transport via Life Flight - minimal
Cost of cardiac cath during acute heart attack - zero
Cost of hip replacement, CT's, MRI's, Xrays, blood tests - zero
Cost of Trauma team to save your ass post motorcycle accident - zero
Cost for stay in ICU - zero
Cost to have specialists work on you for months - zero
Cost to have a child with special needs taken care of in hospital - zero
Cost of antibiotics, special infusion devices, external hearts, pace makers, skin grafts, plastic surgery post accident....etc.
Cost to have a public health nurse follow your child's growth for 6 years - zero


So if you don't pay anything then who pays for it? And don't give me that "higher taxes" crap. Even with higher taxes I doubt you ever put in enough to pay for a Life Flight, hip replacement, or to pay for the Trauma team to save your ass post motorcycle accident.

The truth is you are STEALING money from other people to pay for your problems.

[Papa_Complex]

So if you don't pay anything then who pays for it? And don't give me that "higher taxes" crap. Even with higher taxes I doubt you ever put in enough to pay for a Life Flight, hip replacement, or to pay for the Trauma team to save your ass post motorcycle accident.

The truth is you are STEALING money from other people to pay for your problems.

The truth is that everyone pays less for their health care, because it's dealt with through fewer layers of bureaucracy and "bought in bulk." That includes the racers who occasionally have to be helicoptered out after a crash on the track.

[Smittie61984]

The truth is that everyone pays less for their health care, because it's dealt with through fewer layers of bureaucracy and "bought in bulk." That includes the racers who occasionally have to be helicoptered out after a crash on the track.

Less bureaucracy with government???

Even with the "Bulk Discount" I doubt many people pay enough in taxes to have fully paid for their medical costs. Or basically if you pay $10000 in taxes directed at healthcare over say 10 years and you then have $100,000 in hospital costs. Then that $90,000 comes from someone else who was FORCED to pay for your costs.

Wether the socialist system will allow us to live and fuck for another 200years for cheaper is not the point. The point is someone is having the government take money from someone else to pay for your problem(s).

I'm not paying higher taxes to pay for some fat ass who smokes, drinks, does drugs, and only gets up to change football games because their remote control broke's hospital bills. I'd rather them die for their shitty life decisions.

Again, it is a moral issue.

[Papa_Complex]

Less bureaucracy with government???

Even with the "Bulk Discount" I doubt many people pay enough in taxes to have fully paid for their medical costs. Or basically if you pay $10000 in taxes directed at healthcare over say 10 years and you then have $100,000 in hospital costs. Then that $90,000 comes from someone else who was FORCED to pay for your costs.

Wether the socialist system will allow us to live and fuck for another 200years for cheaper is not the point. The point is someone is having the government take money from someone else to pay for your problem(s).

I'm not paying higher taxes to pay for some fat ass who smokes, drinks, does drugs, and only gets up to change football games because their remote control broke's hospital bills. I'd rather them die for their shitty life decisions.

Again, it is a moral issue.

Yes, it's a moral issue: Are you the sort of person who would help your neighbour, or aren't you?

The studies that have been put forward indicate that a great deal of the cost difference between our two systems is the multiple levels of bureaucracy in your system, from the doctor, to the hospital, to the HMO, to the insurer...... Our "single payer" system eliminates much of that.

[sherri_chickie]

In our system the only people out to make a profit at the doctors, who deserve to be compensated for their skill and years of education. We don't have a big burocracy trying to fill their pockets.

How is healthcare different that house or car insurance? You still pay car insurance and house insurance, Do you think that you will pay enough to pay for your house if it were to burn down and you filed a claim? To me it looks no different that what you say we do when we " STEAL" from others forced to pay for our treatment.

"Same Same."

I dont't think anyone is saying that the U.S system should be the same as ours, each country had to do what is right for it. We have different mind sets, Canadians don't mind that we may be covering for others because others may have to cover for us.

The money for healthcare doesn't just come from personal income taxes either, corporations pay their taxes, $$ get pooled, and budgeted out accordingly.

[Tsunami]

How do Canadian doctors get paid, is it just one flat salary or do they get paid per patient?

[goof2]

Yes, it's a moral issue: Are you the sort of person who would help your neighbour, or aren't you?

There is a difference between voluntarily helping your neighbor and forcing everyone to help that neighbor under penalty of law.

[Papa_Complex]

How do Canadian doctors get paid, is it just one flat salary or do they get paid per patient?

Depends.

[Papa_Complex]

There is a difference between voluntarily helping your neighbor and forcing everyone to help that neighbor under penalty of law.

Yes, there is a difference. As a society we recognize the value of doing so.

[goof2]

Yes, there is a difference. As a society we recognize the value of doing so.

That is wonderful for YOUR society. Some people in THIS country who would voluntarily help their neighbor aren't interested in being legally bound to help complete strangers anymore than they already are. Considering the state of the public option in the Senate bill, that would appear to be true for close to a majority of Senators as well.

[was92v]

I have insurance through work that I pay for, as well as ST disability, LT disability, dental and vision that I pay extra for. I don't see a doctor often, in fact it has been years since I've seen one.
Today I watched the PP presentation for the 2010 changes. Woo Hoo the rates aren't going up as much as they had in the past! Oh! but my deductible is going to be $5,000.00 individual or $10,000.00 per year for family coverage. But that is just 25% of take home and my taxes are cheap, only 20%. Good thing we don't have state income or local taxes, well except for that 9.75% sales tax thing.
I just wish that I hadn't noticed that 4 or5 people at work this past year were fired 6 weeks after coming back from serious medical events. But I guess ya gotta do something to keep the insurance rates down, even if it means putting them in the unemployment line. I sure hope I don't get sick. Big bills and then no job would really be stressful at my age. But I'm old, it probably wouldn't bother you young guys.

[Smittie61984]

Yes, it's a moral issue: Are you the sort of person who would help your neighbour, or aren't you?
.

My neighbor? Yes I would. If he wants to borrow some sugar for some Kool-aid then not a problem at all. If he sends the police to my house to collect some sugar for himself then I'd have a problem.

If your "society" is so superior morally to ours then why is there a need to use the policing power of government, backed up by men with guns willing to violence on its behalf to take the money from people? If your society is such a moral society that cares about everyone then wouldn't people just give out of the kindness of their hearts?

My guess is that per capita American citizens GIVE more of their money to other people, countries, etc than Canada, Europe, or even devout communists/socialists. I think I remember seeing a stat that showed personal donations from Congressional leaders with the evil Republicans in the lead of most donations.

[Papa_Complex]

Guess all that you want. Would that money be from individuals, or government?

[askmrjesus]

Less bureaucracy with government???

Even with the "Bulk Discount" I doubt many people pay enough in taxes to have fully paid for their medical costs. Or basically if you pay $10000 in taxes directed at healthcare over say 10 years and you then have $100,000 in hospital costs. Then that $90,000 comes from someone else who was FORCED to pay for your costs.

I'm not paying higher taxes to pay for some fat ass who smokes, drinks, does drugs, and only gets up to change football games because their remote control broke's hospital bills. I'd rather them die for their shitty life decisions.

Again, it is a moral issue.

You're right, it is a moral issue. You're just on the wrong side of it.

That's OK though. A lot of people have decided not to be contributing members of society. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

The pity, really, is that while you detest the idea of helping anyone besides your non-smoking, non-drinking, non-drug doing, "God I'm so fucking perfect, I can't believe there are actually other people on the planet, and some of them are fat", self, you are perfectly willing to pay more than the citizens of any other Western nation, for health care.

Seems odd. As super-bitchen as you are, I would think you'd get health care for free. Why should you be paying for it, if you're not going to use it? You're silly.

Wether the socialist system will allow us to live and fuck for another 200years for cheaper is not the point. The point is someone is having the government take money from someone else to pay for your problem(s).

I don't give a fuck if it's the Dewey decimal system. If I can get jiggy with it for another 200 years, I am fucking golden.

Here's what the point really is. You already pay for someone else's problems. It's called insurance. That's how it works. X amount of people with X amount of problems, = X amount of profit. It ain't magic. If everyone paid in what they took out, insurance would be, "that thing we had before all the insurance salesmen went broke".

Supply and demand is not a new concept.

JC

[Smittie61984]

You're right, it is a moral issue. You're just on the wrong side of it.

Here's what the point really is. You already pay for someone else's problems. It's called insurance. That's how it works. X amount of people with X amount of problems, = X amount of profit. It ain't magic. If everyone paid in what they took out, insurance would be, "that thing we had before all the insurance salesmen went broke".

JC

How am I on the wrong side? You find it moral to take someone's money by force? If someone broke into your house to steal your TV to sell and buy some food so they can eat (or get healthcare), are you going to say "well they probably need it more than me"?

And with insurance I, yes I I I I I, say it as EYE have the option to pay for others or not. Same as those people have the option to pay for me. It is 100% voluntary unlike your government love fest of socialized medicine.

If you want to help people out, and if you are morally superior to me, then put your money where your mouth is and take your own fucking money and pay for the dumbass smoker's lung cancer treatment. I'll applaud you for your ACTION.

[was92v]

I wonder what we would live like with no Social programs forced on us at all? No Govt, no taxes, no hospitals, no roads or schools, or police or fire protection, no water, electric or sanitation or communications. Oh and no Doctors or medical since a lot of the education is paid for by govt grants and govt backed loans. Sounds like where I live, about 250 years ago. Though it probably would be more like the tribal areas of Afghanistan/Pakistan in reality. What a wonderful place to raise the kids in.

[Smittie61984]

Haha. That's just retarded.

First off I'm not advocating anarchy. I believe in the role of government but a minimal role, especially on the federal level.

I also find it funny that you guys think so little of yourself that you need someone like Biden or Bush to take care of you.

I wonder what we would live like with no Social programs forced on us at all? No Govt, no taxes,
no hospitals - There are plenty of private hospitals that do 10x better than any governmetn ran hospital. Want to see a government run, fuck up of a hospital? Check out Grady Hospital in Atlanta. By the way they are currently bankrupt and full of corruption
no roads - Roads are essentially a voluntary tax. If you don't buy gasoline then you don't pay taxes for roadways. Interstates were originally set up for the US Military, a legit role of government. And most road construction is done by private contractors
no schools - Well those are just fuck up factories. You can go to some of the best private schools for less than a car payment. But gotta keep up with the Joneses.
No police or fire protection - Police protect innocent people from bad people. Well actually they usually just investigate a crime (legit role of government). Fire? Well i've advocated that if a tax exempt organization like a church decides not to pay property taxes, then if they catch fire, let it burn.
no water - Our government water is so great that we spend billions more a year buying it in a bottle from PRIVATE COMPANIES
electric - Your electricity almost always comes from private companies. Here in Georgia I know of Georgia Power, Jackson EMC, Walton EMC, and then various other ones.
sanitation - Sanitation? Again, most sanitation departments are PRIVATELY owned
communications - Communications are done by private companies (I work for one), AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast to name a few
no Doctors or medical since a lot of the education is paid for by govt grants and govt backed loans - Most med schools I know of are private schools. I know Emory and Mercer in Atlanta and Macon are. Not sure about Medical College of Georgia in Augusta. Hopkins, Mayo, Harvard, etc are also privat. You can trust your doctor from Devry if you want


Yeah, we're helpless without Big Brother.

[askmrjesus]

I wonder what we would live like with no Social programs forced on us at all? No Govt, no taxes, no hospitals, no roads or schools, or police or fire protection, no water, electric or sanitation or communications.

I imagine we'd just roam the wasteland looking for gasoline.

JC

[tommymac]

I imagine we'd just roam the wasteland looking for gasoline.

JC

Can I be the humungus :lol:

Tom

[101lifts2]

....How is healthcare different that house or car insurance? You still pay car insurance and house insurance, Do you think that you will pay enough to pay for your house if it were to burn down and you filed a claim? To me it looks no different that what you say we do when we " STEAL" from others forced to pay for our treatment......

You don't have to own a car, nor a house, but you want to be forced to pay for someone else's health insurance because you are simply "living"?

Car insurance is mandated because you could fuck up someone else's vehicle in an accident and home fire insurance is only required IF you have a mortgage (bank covering ass). Both are covering others loses due to your neglegence, though health care is not the case.

[101lifts2]

Prior to the credit melt-down, health care costs were your nation's primary cause of insolvency. That points to a pretty large problem. Our problem is excessive wait times for non-critical operations......

The primary reason was insufficient insurance because the 52in plasma was apparently more important then adequate health insurance.

Should we declare vehicle body shop costs a large problem if I go out, drive w/o car insurance and smack up 3 cars I cannot afford to fix?

[101lifts2]

You're right, it is a moral issue. You're just on the wrong side of it....

Oh my...the forefront of human morality JC. LOL Nigga please.

Why don't we just have a check box option to take another 10% in addition to the current tax rate from your paycheck to go directly to a healthcare fund. I'm sure we'll get alot of takers. I can guarantee if this was proposed in Canada, their system would go broke within a month.

...That's OK though. A lot of people have decided not to be contributing members of society. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last....

Yeah it's called illegal immigrants and the entitlement people all of which you wish to give free shit. What are these fuckers doing? I don't see community service being done, but the county check keeps comin in.

...The pity, really, is that while you detest the idea of helping anyone besides your non-smoking, non-drinking, non-drug doing, "God I'm so fucking perfect, I can't believe there are actually other people on the planet, and some of them are fat", self, you are perfectly willing to pay more than the citizens of any other Western nation, for health care...

Yeah I guessed you missed his argument about the part that if give our government 1 dollar you will get 60 cents in return.

...Here's what the point really is. You already pay for someone else's problems. It's called insurance. That's how it works. X amount of people with X amount of problems, = X amount of profit. It ain't magic. If everyone paid in what they took out, insurance would be, "that thing we had before all the insurance salesmen went broke".

Supply and demand is not a new concept.

JC

Here is how it is...insurance (car/home) is mandated to pay for YOUR neglegence for others possible losses. Healthcare is forced to pay for someone else.

[101lifts2]

How am I on the wrong side? You find it moral to take someone's money by force? If someone broke into your house to steal your TV to sell and buy some food so they can eat (or get healthcare), are you going to say "well they probably need it more than me"?

And with insurance I, yes I I I I I, say it as EYE have the option to pay for others or not. Same as those people have the option to pay for me. It is 100% voluntary unlike your government love fest of socialized medicine.

If you want to help people out, and if you are morally superior to me, then put your money where your mouth is and take your own fucking money and pay for the dumbass smoker's lung cancer treatment. I'll applaud you for your ACTION.

You know liberals are only generous with someone else's money! Get with the program!!!

[karl_1052]

Can I be the humungus :lol:

Tom

That's Lord humungous.;)

[101lifts2]

I wonder what we would live like with no Social programs forced on us at all? No Govt, no taxes, no hospitals, no roads or schools, or police or fire protection, no water, electric or sanitation or communications. Oh and no Doctors or medical since a lot of the education is paid for by govt grants and govt backed loans. Sounds like where I live, about 250 years ago. Though it probably would be more like the tribal areas of Afghanistan/Pakistan in reality. What a wonderful place to raise the kids in.

Like the private industry never made a school...a hospital...a road...a tv...or cable...security. I could go on....but Smittie already covered it. I personally think if we only kept the military, Federal policing AND monetary regulation we would be better off. Less government = better.

[101lifts2]

Haha. That's just retarded.

First off I'm not advocating anarchy. I believe in the role of government but a minimal role, especially on the federal level.

I also find it funny that you guys think so little of yourself that you need someone like Biden or Bush to take care of you.



Yeah, we're helpless without Big Brother.

....the Ownage is getting bad here...:lol

[tommymac]

That's Lord humungous.;)

yes I like that better :lol:

Tom

[askmrjesus]

If you want to help people out, and if you are morally superior to me, then put your money where your mouth is and take your own fucking money and pay for the dumbass smoker's lung cancer treatment. I'll applaud you for your ACTION.

I already am, and so are you. Why is that so hard to figure out?

People are going to get sick and injured no matter what. The more of them that have insurance, the better the costs should be.

It's simple economics. The bigger the pool, the more people can piss in it, before anybody notices the smell.

JC

[Papa_Complex]

The primary reason was insufficient insurance because the 52in plasma was apparently more important then adequate health insurance.

Should we declare vehicle body shop costs a large problem if I go out, drive w/o car insurance and smack up 3 cars I cannot afford to fix?

That's a mighty big assumption there.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html

That's Lord humungous.;)

That Ayatollah of Rock and Rolla!

I already am, and so are you. Why is that so hard to figure out?

People are going to get sick and injured no matter what. The more of them that have insurance, the better the costs should be.

It's simple economics. The bigger the pool, the more people can piss in it, before anybody notices the smell.

JC

What so many opponents of universal health care fail to recognize is that those people are receiving treatment now, but pay NOTHING into the pool. By requiring payment, a large number of those people would be then be adding SOMETHING to that pool other than piss.

[goof2]

I already am, and so are you. Why is that so hard to figure out?

People are going to get sick and injured no matter what. The more of them that have insurance, the better the costs should be.

It's simple economics. The bigger the pool, the more people can piss in it, before anybody notices the smell.

JC

You are assuming that those who are currently uninsured will not change the frequency with which they use medical services once they have insurance. If, on average, they use medical services more because "It's free" their usage costs increase with insurance.

Alternatively if they do go to the doctor more, but it is for preventative care, or they seek treatment for the same sickness they would have had anyway but do so earlier, costs could go down.

It is difficult, if not impossible, to estimate what the true costs of doing this would be. Since the government has a fairly consistent track record of lowballing cost estimates I'm pretty comfortable in assuming that whatever cost numbers we are given will be low.

[Papa_Complex]

You are assuming that those who are currently uninsured will not change the frequency with which they use medical services once they have insurance. If, on average, they use medical services more because "It's free" their usage costs increase with insurance.

Alternatively if they do go to the doctor more, but it is for preventative care, or they seek treatment for the same sickness they would have had anyway but do so earlier, costs could go down.

It is difficult, if not impossible, to estimate what the true costs of doing this would be. Since the government has a fairly consistent track record of lowballing cost estimates I'm pretty comfortable in assuming that whatever cost numbers we are given will be low.

Two words: user fees.

Make it cost $10.00 or $20.00 every time that you walk in the door and it dissuades people from increasing their use of the "free" system. It's something that we're looking at up here, and is in keeping with your economic model.

[goof2]

What so many opponents of universal health care fail to recognize is that those people are receiving treatment now, but pay NOTHING into the pool. By requiring payment, a large number of those people would be then be adding SOMETHING to that pool other than piss.

You are assuming that a large number of the currently uninsured will be paying a significant amount, or even anything, for their shiny new government insurance. I am not so sure.

[goof2]

Two words: user fees.

Make it cost $10.00 or $20.00 every time that you walk in the door and it dissuades people from increasing their use of the "free" system. It's something that we're looking at up here, and is in keeping with your economic model.

They are also known as Copays, something a few of your fellow Canadians were talking shit about earlier in the thread. Sure, it will change behavior. Will it bring the costs in line with that magical "break even" point where is program costs less than the current system? I don't know.

[askmrjesus]

Oh my...the forefront of human morality JC. LOL Nigga please.

Show me the part in the "book" where I ever said "Fuck the poor and the sick". I realize concepts of compassion and empathy are foreign to you, but a tiny little bit of decency wouldn't kill you, would it?

Why don't we just have a check box option to take another 10% in addition to the current tax rate from your paycheck to go directly to a healthcare fund. I'm sure we'll get alot of takers. I can guarantee if this was proposed in Canada, their system would go broke within a month.

Do I look like a fucking Canadian to you? Am I wearing a big furry hat made of beaver pelts? No motherfucker, I am not. I can guarantee you that I don't give a shit about Canada's health care system. No offense, moose lovers, but I'm more concerned with OUR health care system at the moment


Yeah it's called illegal immigrants and the entitlement people all of which you wish to give free shit. What are these fuckers doing? I don't see community service being done, but the county check keeps comin in.

This is really getting to be a phobia with you. You need to move out of SoCal, homie. I don't want to give illegal anybody anything.

Yeah I guessed you missed his argument about the part that if give our government 1 dollar you will get 60 cents in return.

How is that different from private industry? People sell insurance to make a profit, so you ain't gettin' all of your dollar back either way.


Here is how it is...insurance (car/home) is mandated to pay for YOUR neglegence for others possible losses. Healthcare is forced to pay for someone else.

Why are you paying into any health care system then? You're not sick. Why don't you just wait until you get sick, and then pay as you go? Some fat smoker is using up your premium money as we speak. You better fucking get on that!

JC

[Papa_Complex]

They are also known as Copays, something a few of your fellow Canadians were talking shit about earlier in the thread. Sure, it will change behavior. Will it bring the costs in line with that magical "break even" point where is program costs less than the current system? I don't know.

A co-pay applies to every little line item on the bill. A user fee is a single charge coming in the door. Co-pays can (and do) put people in the poor house.

[shmike]

A co-pay applies to every little line item on the bill. A user fee is a single charge coming in the door. Co-pays can (and do) put people in the poor house.

I think you are getting co-pay confused with co-insurance.

A co-pay is paid when you walk in the door of a Dr. Office or hospital (as a patient).

It is the equivalent of a user fee.

[goof2]

A co-pay applies to every little line item on the bill. A user fee is a single charge coming in the door. Co-pays can (and do) put people in the poor house.

shmike has already stated it, but co-pays (at least any I have had) are only when you walk in the door. I pay my $15 for a doctor's visit and all the tests, blood work, supplies, etc. are covered.

[karl_1052]

Do I look like a fucking Canadian to you? Am I wearing a big furry hat made of beaver pelts? No motherfucker, I am not. I can guarantee you that I don't give a shit about Canada's health care system. No offense, moose lovers, but I'm more concerned with OUR health care system at the moment

Isn't CA the most Canada like state? Fuck, even the abbreviation is the same.:lol:

[Papa_Complex]

I think you are getting co-pay confused with co-insurance.

A co-pay is paid when you walk in the door of a Dr. Office or hospital (as a patient).

It is the equivalent of a user fee.

Or have a letter written, or get a prescription.... No?

[goof2]

Or have a letter written, or get a prescription.... No?

I'm not sure what kind of letter you are talking about, but I have never had to pay anything additional for a referral if that is what you mean. If a doctor gives me samples of medication instead of a written prescription I have never had to pay additional for that. If I need to get a prescription filled at a pharmacy it is additional, but that isn't done at the doctor's office either. I also have prescription drug coverage so medication costs a max of $8 per prescription.

For things actually done at the doctor's office I pay my co-pay once and that covers me for anything they do during the visit.

[askmrjesus]

Isn't CA the most Canada like state? Fuck, even the abbreviation is the same.:lol:

You can have it if you want it.

I'm done with it.

JC

[101lifts2]

Show me the part in the "book" where I ever said "Fuck the poor and the sick". I realize concepts of compassion and empathy are foreign to you, but a tiny little bit of decency wouldn't kill you, would it?



Do I look like a fucking Canadian to you? Am I wearing a big furry hat made of beaver pelts? No motherfucker, I am not. I can guarantee you that I don't give a shit about Canada's health care system. No offense, moose lovers, but I'm more concerned with OUR health care system at the moment....

I chuckle at alot of your posts...they make for some entertaining ish to say the least.

I think most Americans would like everyone that is here legally to have health care coverage (though most do not believe it should be free). The problem lies in how to fund it. We (Americans) understand there needs to be studied projected costs, increased doctor availability, immigration reform and individual health awareness.

So...what we now have shoved in our face is a 2037 page health care bill which very few understand and items included we probably cannot pay for. Now what? Just run with it and hope there are only 100 consitutents making it big instead of 500? What the fuck kinda plan is that? There was talk that in the bill Medicare would be lowered from 65 to 55. Not sure if that's true, but it seems to be a lead in to universal health care.

In regards to one of your comments, there is alot of truth in pooling people's money while only realizing a small increase in premiums. But, the issue with medical care in general is cost. And to think that just pooling people's money without serious regulation to drug/procedural costs is going to lower medical bills is very very naive.

[Smittie61984]

I already am, and so are you. Why is that so hard to figure out?

People are going to get sick and injured no matter what. The more of them that have insurance, the better the costs should be.

It's simple economics. The bigger the pool, the more people can piss in it, before anybody notices the smell.

JC

First off I make less than $30k so I do not pay taxes at all (not yet at least). Even with government health care, I along with the people "who can't afford" (despite I have it somehow but I also don't own a giant Plasma TV) health insurance still won't pay taxes for the healthcare because they don't make enough to pay for health insurance. They'll just have free reign to whatever they want and fuck up the system more.

To put it your way "You'll have the same amount of people pissing into the pool, except you'll be trying to fill up Lake Michigan"

It will also be the first time in US history that a US Citizen will be FORCED to pay for a good or service.

[Smittie61984]

How is that different from private industry? People sell insurance to make a profit, so you ain't gettin' all of your dollar back either way.


Actually I believe most insurance companies take the money that is pooled and invest it to make more money.

Our government takes our money, blows it, and then robs people for more money.

[goof2]

Actually I believe most insurance companies take the money that is pooled and invest it to make more money.

Our government takes our money, blows it, and then robs people for more money.

I agree about the government. Look at the TARP program. It was a huge expenditure (and allowed Obama to blame Bush for a lot of the deficit), but now that some of the money is coming back (~$200 billion from what I have read) instead of using it to alleviate some of the deficit, the government can't figure out a way to blow this "windfall" fast enough.

[was92v]

Haha. That's just retarded.

First off I'm not advocating anarchy. I believe in the role of government but a minimal role, especially on the federal level.

I also find it funny that you guys think so little of yourself that you need someone like Biden or Bush to take care of you.



Yeah, we're helpless without Big Brother.
_________________________________

Originally Posted by was92v
I wonder what we would live like with no Social programs forced on us at all? No Govt, no taxes,
no hospitals - There are plenty of private hospitals that do 10x better than any governmetn ran hospital. Want to see a government run, fuck up of a hospital? Check out Grady Hospital in Atlanta. By the way they are currently bankrupt and full of corruption

Extensive research, herein reviewed, shows that for-profit health institutions provide inferior care at inflated prices. The U.S. experience also demonstrates that market mechanisms nurture unscrupulous medical businesses and undermine medical institutions unable or unwilling to tailor care to profitability. The commercialization of care in the United States has driven up costs by diverting money to profits and by fueling a vast increase in management and financial bureaucracy, which now consumes 31 percent of total health spending. The Veterans Health Administration system--a network of government hospitals and clinics--has emerged as the leader in quality improvement and information technology, indicating the potential for public sector excellence and innovation. The poor performance of U.S. health care is directly attributable to reliance on market mechanisms and for-profit firms, and should warn other nations from this path.

Why would anyone choose to emulate the U.S. health care system? Costs per capita are about twice the OECD (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development) average. Forty-seven million people are completely uninsured. Many others with insurance face high out-of-pocket costs that hinder care and bankrupt more than a million annually (1). Mortality statistics lag those of most other wealthy countries, and even for the insured, clinical outcomes and patient satisfaction are mediocre at best (2, 3).
International Journal of Health Services, Volume 38, Number 3, Pages 407-419, 2008 (c) 2008, Baywood Publishing Co., Inc. doi: 10.2190/HS.38.3.a http://baywood.com

no roads - Roads are essentially a voluntary tax. If you don't buy gasoline then you don't pay taxes for roadways. Which is a ridiculous statement in today’s world. There is nothing truly voluntary about it.

Interstates were originally set up for the US Military, a legit role of government. And most road construction is done by private contractors
Who are paid with public money.

no schools - Well those are just fuck up factories. You can go to some of the best private schools for less than a car payment. But gotta keep up with the Joneses.

Public Schools Versus Private Schools
Achievement -- Advantage
Reading -- Equal
Mathematics -- Equal
Science -- Equal
History -- Equal
SAT Math -- Private Schools
SAT Verbal -- Private Schools
College Enrollment -- Equal
Source: Center for Education Policy
To determine whether or not family involvement or background characteristics impacted the difference in academic performance between private schools and public schools, the Center for Education Policy (CEP) did a special study based on analysis of the National Educational Longitudinal Study (1988-2000). They found that there is no real difference between the academic performance given by public and private school students from the same low-income bracket and background, suggesting that family involvement has more of an impact than the school setting.
Summary of CEP Findings
• Low-income students attending public high schools performed just as well academically as low-income students attending private high schools.
• Neither private school students nor public school students with similar background characteristics were more likely to attend college.
• Young adults at age 26 who attended private school are no more likely to be engaged in civic activities than young adults who attended a public school.
• Private school graduates aren't any more satisfied with the jobs they hold at age 26 than are public school graduates.
'Contrary to popular belief, we can find no evidence that private schools actually increase student performance,' stated Jack Jennings, the president and CEO of CEP. 'Instead, it appears that private schools simply have higher percentages of students who would perform well in any environment based on their previous performance and background.'
In my experience Keeping up with the Joneses is a huge factor in putting the children in “Private School” . I don’t give a flying fuck about the Joneses, I don’t have a car payment, or a new car.
The pvt school my ex sent her Daughter to cost (me) $10,000.00 a year. Now she works part tine in a coffee shop…

No police or fire protection - Police protect innocent people from bad people. Well actually they usually just investigate a crime (legit role of government). Fire? Well i've advocated that if a tax exempt organization like a church decides not to pay property taxes, then if they catch fire, let it burn.

What you have advocated is no tax money to be spent on anything but the Military and International decorum.
Fire? Better get a 2in line and a turn out suit for that DIY Home Fire Company, oh wait, no water.


no water - Our government water is so great that we spend billions more a year buying it in a bottle from PRIVATE COMPANIES

That bottle that public tap water and sell it back to you.

electric - Your electricity almost always comes from private companies. Here in Georgia I know of Georgia Power, Jackson EMC, Walton EMC, and then various other ones.

Private Energy companies including the Southern Company, parent co of Georgia Power, have received an average of $6.1 Billion (That’s with a B) of public money every year for the past
40 years. Look it up.

sanitation - Sanitation? Again, most sanitation departments are PRIVATELY owned
Sewer and water reclamation was my thought. Refuse is a whole different subject, but think about where the private collectors make their deposits.

communications - Communications are done by private companies (I work for one), AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast to name a few

I too am in communications, for 36 years. Has the gov’t been involved? Look a little deeper
And see what you find… :)

no Doctors or medical since a lot of the education is paid for by govt grants and govt backed loans - Most med schools I know of are private schools. I know Emory and Mercer in Atlanta and Macon are. Not sure about Medical College of Georgia in Augusta. Hopkins, Mayo, Harvard, etc are also privat. You can trust your doctor from Devry if you want

Taxpayer Support for Physician Education and Training, 1991-92
Billions of Source Dollars

Medicare $5.2
Federal research, training, and teaching $5.1
State and local governments $2.7
Total $13.0

Sources: Fitzhugh Mullan et al., "Doctors, Dollars, and Determination: Making Physician Work-Force Policy," Health Affairs Supplement (1993), p. 142; and Janice Ganem et al., "Review of U.S. Medical School Finances 1992-93," Journal of the American Medical Association 274 (1995): 724.
________________________________________
Medicare payments to hospitals represent the largest source of federal funding for medical education and training.(128) Medicare pays for physician education and training in two ways: First, hospitals receive direct payments from Medicare based on the number of full-time-equivalent residents employed at each hospital. Second, Medicare increases a hospital's diagnostic-related group payments according to an "indirect" medical education factor, based on the ratio of residents to hospital beds.(129)
The average Medicare payment to hospitals was more than $70,000 per resident for both direct and indirect education subsidies in 1992. An estimated 69,900 full-time-equivalent interns, residents, and fellows were eligible for Medicare reimbursement in 1991.(130)
Medicare paid hospitals $1.6 billion for direct medical education expenses and dispensed $3.6 billion for indirect medical education adjustments in 1992.(131) Of the total $5.2 billion that Medicare paid to hospitals for training, approximately $0.3 billion was appropriated for training nurses and allied health professionals.(132)
Medical schools and teaching hospitals receive additional federal funding from the National Institutes of Health, the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of Defense, and the Health Resources and Services Administration (Title VII) program. Federal funding for research, training, and teaching amounted to at least $5.1 billion in 1992.(133) That money was awarded to medical schools and affiliated hospitals in the form of grants and contracts.

There seems to be a bit of Public in that Private…

[Tmall]

Oh shit.. Is an owned required?

[101lifts2]

....Extensive research, herein reviewed, shows that for-profit health institutions provide inferior care at inflated prices....

Which health institutions are not for profit? A county hospital? So your extensive research find shows that county hospitals are better than the profit generating private ones? LOL

Private is always better than public when it comes to service. If it wasn't, you would go somewhere else. Crap is weeded out by starvation. It's really a nice system. The problem is that each year "we" give more control to the government which never gets taken back. So...you end up with a subsidy here and a subsidy there which turns out to be promises kept by some congressman.

...no roads - Roads are essentially a voluntary tax. If you don't buy gasoline then you don't pay taxes for roadways. Which is a ridiculous statement in today’s world. There is nothing truly voluntary about it....

Roads are paid by gasoline tax, license fees and now even property tax. Don't drive a car or own a house and it's voluntary.

[was92v]

Which health institutions are not for profit? A county hospital? So your extensive research find shows that county hospitals are better than the profit generating private ones? LOL

Private is always better than public when it comes to service. If it wasn't, you would go somewhere else. Crap is weeded out by starvation. It's really a nice system. The problem is that each year "we" give more control to the government which never gets taken back. So...you end up with a subsidy here and a subsidy there which turns out to be promises kept by some congressman.



Roads are paid by gasoline tax, license fees and now even property tax. Don't drive a car or own a house and it's voluntary.

There are other non-profit hospitals besides county. Most of those locally are better than the for profit hospitals. Just saying...

Don't drive a car or own a house If you don't drive a car in most of the US outside of a large city, you won't have a house to own or rent, because you can't get to a job. So yeah, in theory that would work.
This morning it was about 12 degrees here. If I voluntarily didn't drive and voluntarily didn't have a home would it be suicide when I froze to death in my sleep under a bridge or would I just be exercising my voluntary rights to not pay those taxes?
When they die under that bridge do we as a society bury or burn them at our expense or just leave em where they fall and let nature take care of it. I mean shit, why should they use my money to chuck em in the ground. I didn't volunteer to pay for it. right?

[101lifts2]

....Don't drive a car or own a house[/I] If you don't drive a car in most of the US outside of a large city, you won't have a house to own or rent, because you can't get to a job. So yeah, in theory that would work.
This morning it was about 12 degrees here. If I voluntarily didn't drive and voluntarily didn't have a home would it be suicide when I froze to death in my sleep under a bridge or would I just be exercising my voluntary rights to not pay those taxes?
When they die under that bridge do we as a society bury or burn them at our expense or just leave em where they fall and let nature take care of it. I mean shit, why should they use my money to chuck em in the ground. I didn't volunteer to pay for it. right?

Now you are just arguing convienence...taxi...bus??

We usually just cremate, but I guess that is the cost to just live.

[goof2]

There are a lot of non-profit hospitals, but that doesn't mean they are public hospitals. Vanderbilt, the best hospital in your area was92v (and one of the best in the country) operates as a non-profit, but I believe it is still a private hospital.

[101lifts2]

There are a lot of non-profit hospitals, but that doesn't mean they are public hospitals. Vanderbilt, the best hospital in your area was92v (and one of the best in the country) operates as a non-profit, but I believe it is still a private hospital.

Yes...

[goof2]

Yes...

Don't get too excited. Nashville has some of the best public hospitals in the country as well. Nashville is atypical from pretty much all of the rest of the country. That city has one of, if not the best medical system in the country.