charge thieves w/ dog's death?

[RACER X]

so remember a bit back in FLA. dude ran from cops, cop crashed died, dude was charged w/ his death and convicted and is in jail.

well this case, a police dog died in pursuit of some thieves, i think a snake got him , and it's not fully investigated yet.


do you think it'll run the same course as runner dude?

police dogs are essentially police personnal as far as i knew.

http://www.click2houston.com/news/22044552/detail.html

Police Dog Dies During Search
Cause Of Death Not Yet Known

POSTED: Wednesday, December 23, 2009
UPDATED: 10:06 am CST December 23, 2009

HOUSTON -- A police dog died while searching for home invasion suspects in north Houston, KPRC Local 2 reported Wednesday.




Harris County Precinct 4 deputy constables said several people broke into a home on Sterling Stone at Stone Bluff Tuesday night.

Deputies caught one person, but two others ran into some nearby woods.

Dogs were brought in to search for the suspects. During the search, one of the dogs, a 5-year-old named Bleck, was found dead.

Officials are not yet sure how the dog died.

"We searched for the suspects and lost them, unfortunately. Somewhere in the process, our canine in a very thick wood-line succumbed to an unknown injury," said Capt. Wally Wieghat of the Harris County Precinct 4 Constable's Office.

The dog showed no signs of trauma. A necropsy will be conducted to determine the cause of the death of the Czech-German Shepherd mix.

Wieghat said the dog's handler is taking the death very hard.

The two home invasion suspects escaped.

[Tmall]

Stupid law. If the policeman slips into traffic while he is giving you a ticket, should you be responsible?


Its a peril of the job.

[Particle Man]

Stupid law. If the policeman slips into traffic while he is giving you a ticket, should you be responsible?


Its a peril of the job.

If he slips into traffic going by while giving you a ticket, that's his own issue but if he's chasing you on foot because you are fleeing from the scene of a robbery and he gets hit by a car, are you still saying that it isn't the fault of the person being chased? I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your reasoning. If you run from the cops and a cop gets injured, it's your fault because you're running.

[Tmall]

If he slips into traffic going by while giving you a ticket, that's his own issue but if he's chasing you on foot because you are fleeing from the scene of a robbery and he gets hit by a car, are you still saying that it isn't the fault of the person being chased? I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your reasoning. If you run from the cops and a cop gets injured, it's your fault because you're running.

I disagree 100%. The law in this case is unjust. Yes, the perp is responsible for running. And the charge of felony fleeing or evading should be laid. But, there are so many variables that it is beyond retarded to think you should be held responsible for somebody else's actions.

If the cop slipped in dog poo and kicked a baby giving it brain damage, are you responsible? What if he has a heart attack? What if he drops his pistol and it discharges, are you responsible?

I'm not saying you should have a get out of jail free card, but I am saying the police are big grown men. THEY should be responsible for their actions. If you can't chase somebody down while ensuring you're keeping the public safe, then you shouldn't be chasing people.

[karl_1052]

I disagree 100%. The law in this case is unjust. Yes, the perp is responsible for running. And the charge of felony fleeing or evading should be laid. But, there are so many variables that it is beyond retarded to think you should be held responsible for somebody else's actions.

If the cop slipped in dog poo and kicked a baby giving it brain damage, are you responsible? What if he has a heart attack? What if he drops his pistol and it discharges, are you responsible?

I'm not saying you should have a get out of jail free card, but I am saying the police are big grown men. THEY should be responsible for their actions. If you can't chase somebody down while ensuring you're keeping the public safe, then you shouldn't be chasing people.

I would agree with Tmall, unless something you do directly(throw something at the officer, shoot at the officer, etc) to hurt them, the perp should not be responsible.

[RACER X]

well i do think a bad guy is liable for whatever happens in capturing him.

i think the police dog thing is like, either a human goes or a dog goes. and if perp is willing to shoot police dog, he's willing to shoot human. so rather a dog get shot then human.

just like this case, if a human was chasing dude and got bit by snake, and died, perp woulda been charged w/ cops death.

[RACER X]

from local rider who was K-9 cop

I can shed some light in this as a retired k9 popo.

a k9 or horse that is given status as a police officer is, if killed on duty, 1 charge below killing a human police officer.
you won't get capitol murder charges, but the next step down. in this case, it's likely they will be held responsible for neglegent killing of a police animal.

it's the same. there is a reason behind this law. k9's are nothing like your typical dog. my last one knew over 60 commands, 20 of them hand signals. if you don't create a safe zone in the law, there's no reason for bad guys NOT to injure the animal during the commision of a crime. since they extend police powers and are used to apprehend the MOST violent of criminals, it serves to protect the handler and the dog. these dogs require an insane amount of training, upkeep, and recurrent certification to work. they are a force multiplier in the law enforcement community. they are the last step in the lethal force continuim, before using a firearm.

[Avatard]

I would agree with Tmall, unless something you do directly(throw something at the officer, shoot at the officer, etc) to hurt them, the perp should not be responsible.

I think it's the most common-sense apportionment of blame and responsibility.

[Tmall]

Did the perp kill the dog? If so, charge him. If the dog fell off a cliff and broke its neck, well sucks to be the dog..

[101lifts2]

If he slips into traffic going by while giving you a ticket, that's his own issue but if he's chasing you on foot because you are fleeing from the scene of a robbery and he gets hit by a car, are you still saying that it isn't the fault of the person being chased? I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your reasoning. If you run from the cops and a cop gets injured, it's your fault because you're running.

I agree with Tmall....unless the robber intentionally caused the harm, it's the peril of the job so to say...

And I don't agree on the police dog thing at all. If you kill a dog it is still a dog. There are no dogs covered by the Constitution of the United States. Stupidest law I know to treat a dog as a human being (and I don't care how much training it had).

[Smittie61984]

If the dog was killed by a snake bite or even an aortic dissection due to the stress of running then I wouldn't put the perp at fault. If they find trauma on the dog that can be attributed to the perp then nail him.

As for charging them the same thing as assaulting a police officer (or even one step down) I can't agree with. I love dogs more than anything (especially humans), but I would look at a police dog as a peice of government property more than an officer.

Ideally the home owner would have been home and able to shoot the suspect dead right there (well after a half hour or so of bleeding through their stomach from a gut shot).

[Avatard]

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l241/alfonsom4/DramaticChipmunk.gif

[RACER X]

turns out dude killed dog by strangling it, change anybody's mind?

"The suspect could be charged with interfering with a canine, which is a third-degree felony, but the constable's office wants the charge upgraded."

[Tmall]

Yes. He killed the dog. Do you not understand there is a difference between a dog dying in pursuit and somebody killing it? I'm being serious, yes or no?

[RACER X]

are we talking police dog or reg. dog.

[Tmall]

You're being purposely dense.

Dog runs into tree while chasing man and dies, that is not the mans fault.

Same dog gets strangled by man, that is the man's fault.

Trying to explain something to you is like trying to explain to a kid they don't like cookies. They'll smike and agree, but the don't give a shit what you're saying. They already have their mind made up..

Ps, merry xmas.

[Avatard]

Wait...Racer X has a MIND?

...Then He clearly just got it as a gift for Xmas, if so...but I haven't seen any evidence of it yet.

[karl_1052]

turns out dude killed dog by strangling it, change anybody's mind?

"The suspect could be charged with interfering with a canine, which is a third-degree felony, but the constable's office wants the charge upgraded."

I will say it again

I would agree with Tmall, unless something you do directly(throw something at the officer, shoot at the officer, etc) to hurt them, the perp should not be responsible.

[Looni2ns]

The dog is a cop. Period. Perp kills cop in order to escape detection and flee. Perp pays.

These aren't your regular dogs. They're exceptional, and deserve every bit of respect that we give the two-legged officer. Lucky that he won't get the big shot.

And the boys in prison don't like perps who kill animals. Kinda like they don't like perps who mess w/kids. Guess he better be careful not to drop the soap. No sympathy here.

[101lifts2]

You're being purposely dense.

Dog runs into tree while chasing man and dies, that is not the mans fault.

Same dog gets strangled by man, that is the man's fault.

Trying to explain something to you is like trying to explain to a kid they don't like cookies. They'll smike and agree, but the don't give a shit what you're saying. They already have their mind made up..

Ps, merry xmas.

He only killed it because he was defending himself. I don't think he walked up to the dog or chased after the dog and stangled it.

[101lifts2]

The dog is a cop. Period. Perp kills cop in order to escape detection and flee. Perp pays.

These aren't your regular dogs. They're exceptional, and deserve every bit of respect that we give the two-legged officer. Lucky that he won't get the big shot.

And the boys in prison don't like perps who kill animals. Kinda like they don't like perps who mess w/kids. Guess he better be careful not to drop the soap. No sympathy here.

It's a dog...a trained dog, but a dog nontheless. The U.S. Constitution shouldn't afford the same rights to animals as it's citizens.

[karl_1052]

He only killed it because he was defending himself. I don't think he walked up to the dog or chased after the dog and stangled it.

So if he killed a cop in self defense that would be okay?:?:

[101lifts2]

So if he killed a cop in self defense that would be okay?:?:

Is a cop a dog?

And if the cop was unjust, then yes it should be justified.

[Papa_Complex]

Stupid law. If the policeman slips into traffic while he is giving you a ticket, should you be responsible?


Its a peril of the job.

The concept of "felony murder" isn't necessarily a stupid law. The concept is quite sound. If it could be foreseen that a particular crime MIGHT REASONABLY result in a death, and a death occurs during the commission of the crime, then the perpetrator is responsible for that death.

The example that is most frequently used is as follows: Two criminals rob a bank. During the course of that robbery, one of the thieves is shot and killed by a bank guard. By felony murder statutes, the surviving criminal is responsible for the death of his partner.

While a police dog is generally considered an officer for the purposes of crimes committed against it, and while flight from police is one of the crimes for which felony murder statutes apply in Florida, I doubt that this would survive a judges sniff test.

[karl_1052]

The example that is most frequently used is as follows: Two criminals rob a bank. During the course of that robbery, one of the thieves is shot and killed by a bank guard. By felony murder statutes, the surviving criminal is responsible for the death of his partner.

Why would he be held responsible for murder. It was not premeditated by anyone. If anything the Bank Guard should get a raise, a handshake and a rolex, and the other robber should get an armed robbery charge.

[Papa_Complex]

Why would he be held responsible for murder. It was not premeditated by anyone. If anything the Bank Guard should get a raise, a handshake and a rolex, and the other robber should get an armed robbery charge.

I think that I explained the theory pretty clearly. If a death could reasonably be expected in the sort of crime committed, and a death does occur, then felony murder applies. The intent is to act as a deterrent to the sort of crimes that are listed in the felony murder statute. For one thing, it removes a great deal of ambiguity.

Say you carjack some old fart Quebecois who is living in Florida and he has a heart attack. You may not have put a bullet in his head, but you're LEGALLY responsible for his death due to the felony murder statute. Under normal legal standards in other jurisdictions you MIGHT be held responsible, but with felony murder there is no question.

These are the crimes for which Second Degree Felony Murder applies in Florida:

Drug trafficking offenses prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
Arson,
Sexual battery,
Robbery,
Burglary,
Kidnapping,
Escape,
Aggravated child abuse,
Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
Aircraft piracy,
Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
Carjacking,
Home-invasion robbery,
Aggravated stalking,
Murder of another human being

This is the legal litmus test for Second Degree Felony Murder:

If a defendant commits a robbery and during the course of the robbery, either the defendant or an accomplice kills a victim, both the defendant and his accomplice could be charged with first degree felony murder. On the other hand, if a defendant commits a robbery and during the course of the robbery, the victim of the robbery shoots at the defendant but instead kills another person, the defendant could be charged with second degree felony murder. s. 782.04(3), F.S.

However, the “fact that an incidental death occurs in conjunction with a felony does not in itself make the perpetrator of the felony guilty of felony murder. In any felony murder conviction, the element of causation, i.e. that the homicide was committed in the perpetration of the felony, must be established.” Allen v. State, 690 So. 2d 1332, 1334 (Fla. 2d DCA 1997). Second degree felony murder is a first degree felony, punishable by up to life in prison. s. 782.04(3), F.S.

[RACER X]

Teen Talks About Police Dog's Death
By Lisa Baldwin

POSTED: Wednesday, December 30, 2009
UPDATED: 8:31 am CST December 30, 2009

HOUSTON -- A 15-year-old boy is speaking out after he and his brother were charged with killing a police dog, KPRC Local 2 reported Tuesday.

Bleck


WATCH IT: Teens Charged In Police Dog's Death

Harris County Precinct 4 deputy constables said their beloved K-9 deputy, Bleck, ran into a wooded area in north Harris County last week in pursuit of several burglary suspects.

Bleck was later found dead in the woods.

Investigators said they believe Cornelius Harrell, 17, choked Bleck to death.

Harrell and his brother, Cameron, 15, are suspected in several burglaries, and are both charged with interfering with a police service animal.

Cameron Harrell would not answer questions about any burglaries, but insisted that his brother was only protecting him for being attacked by the dog as they both hid in the woods.

"He was trying to help me," Cameron Harrell said. "He just grabbed … all I seen was he grabbed the dog and it started trying to bite him and he told me to run and keep running."

The constable's office released a statement saying that the department is deeply saddened by the loss. It said Bleck's death is traumatic and personal for his handler and Bleck placed himself in danger every time he was called to duty.

[Avatard]

The difference between a human cop, and a K9 Officer are that a real cop knows to stop at apprehending the suspect, and a dog will continue to attack a suspect (especially if the handler is nowhere in sight).

Ok, most Human cops when to stop.

Some of them?

A few?

Regardless, the dog doesn't stop until released by the handler. There may be something to the "self defense" argument.

[Papa_Complex]

Self defence would only apply if the teens were not involved in the robbery. If they were then they're screwed, and rightly so in my mind.

[RACER X]

The difference between a human cop, and a K9 Officer are that a real cop knows to stop at apprehending the suspect, and a dog will continue to attack a suspect (especially if the handler is nowhere in sight).

Ok, most Human cops when to stop.

Some of them?

A few?

Regardless, the dog doesn't stop until released by the handler. There may be something to the "self defense" argument.

actually i think once the dog has a hold he stays in the spot arm/leg/body part in mouth, now if perp keeps fighting, dog keeps on going till perp stops fighting and yes w/ dog latched onto arm.

[Avatard]

Yes, but if someone was "attacked" by a human officer, who went beyond what is required to apprehend the suspect, and in fact was threatening the life of the suspect, then this would be a rather important mitigating fact, no? If we are to treat the K9 as a police officer, then the same limits regarding necessary force apply. With no handler in sight, the dog was not controlled to prevent crossing such boundaries of conduct.

[RACER X]

shoulda just shot the lil fuks, all this woulda been avoided + the lengthy trial and jail and future robberies.

[Avatard]

actually i think once the dog has a hold he stays in the spot arm/leg/body part in mouth, now if perp keeps fighting, dog keeps on going till perp stops fighting and yes w/ dog latched onto arm.

A perp, especially a young kid, may not know what the dog is trained to do, and how to react. He may only fear for his life, being attacked by an animal with no handler in sight.

[RACER X]

oh well

[Avatard]

Racer X, we have laws of conduct, even for cops.

[Papa_Complex]

A perp, especially a young kid, may not know what the dog is trained to do, and how to react. He may only fear for his life, being attacked by an animal with no handler in sight.

I have to say that 15 and 17 are old enough to know right from wrong. A police dog is considered an officer, not a tool. As they say, ignorance of the law is no excuse and as I say, this hinges upon whether or not the teens were involved in the robbery. If they were, they're hooped.

[karl_1052]

Yes, but if someone was "attacked" by a human officer, who went beyond what is required to apprehend the suspect, and in fact was threatening the life of the suspect, then this would be a rather important mitigating fact, no? If we are to treat the K9 as a police officer, then the same limits regarding necessary force apply. With no handler in sight, the dog was not controlled to prevent crossing such boundaries of conduct.

I have seen videos of police dogs that did not let up, until the handler physically had to hit the dog to get him to let up. How is the suspect supposed to know that the dog and handler will react like they are supposed to.

Hey Ed, ever hear of due process? If someone is suspected of a crime, does that mean they are automatically guilty?:?:

[Avatard]

In Ed's mind, yes. Until it's him, of course.