Front brake vs. rear brake

[Cruzergirl]

Okay, so Karl's thread got me thinking about my riding habits.


I can't ride in the rain. I'm always afraid I will go sliding off the road WHEN I try to stop.

So the question is this: What is the best way to practice stopping safely? I spend some time in the parking lot but I'm afraid to go out when its raining because I don't want to have to "white knuckle" my riding.

The answer does seem obvious but aside from disabling my rear brake I can't seem to kick that particular habit. :scratch:

Oh, and so far I have been able to recover every time my back tire locks up. But who knows when I won't be able to say that anymore.

[G-Rex]

I've logged many miles in the rain. I've spent a whole day in a downpour that would have left me waterlogged were it not for the goodness that is Aerostich. LOL

What I've found is this. If you're not comfortable in the rain, do a track day in the rain. This was one of the single biggest things that helped me get over any fear I might have had of riding in the rain.

Your tires have alot more grip in wet weather than you might think. The key is to be more deliberate with your inputs. Nothing sudden.

Practice practice practice. When it's raining, I will sometimes go out and find an empty parking lot and practice panic braking. I practice numerous skills every time I am out on my bike, and as alot of you know from my tours, it's not always sunshine and blue skies.

I'm comfortable riding in any weather. I've seen the full gamut from perfect, clear weather, to fog with zero visibility, hail, and snow. The best way I can offer to get over any fears you might have is to get out there and do it.

And this will make some laugh. I actually enjoy riding in the rain. Weird I know. I haven't had to "white-knuckle" it in a long time. I'm comfortable in just about any condition.

It sounds to me like your issue with riding in the rain is more of a mental roadblock than anything. Good luck shaking it!

ETA: Don't forget from the MSF also: If you lock up the rear brake, keep it locked until you are slowed to almost a stop. The momentum will keep the bike tracking forward and the rear wheel won't go anywhere crazy.

[Fleck750]

Is the rear drum or disk? Either way, you could back it off a little where you can't lock it up any more.

Or put a note on your speedometer telling yourself, "Front brake!! Front brake!!!"

[Fleck750]

The momentum will keep the bike tracking forward and the rear wheel won't go anywhere crazy.

This. :iagree:



Don't let go.

[Trip]

As long as you are not entering a corner that is. Rear brakes are the devil. Well unless I am off road they aren't anyway. Good rain tires help a lot with confidence too. My corsa iiis on my old rr sucked, the gs loves the the rain with the bridgestones.

[Tmall]

I always use both except when I'm going very slow, in which case ill drag a little rear.

But, you should be practicing how to do it, not trying to find out how to get away without doing it.

It is there for a reason..

[EpyonXero]

When I first started riding I was a little nervous in the rain until I saw a WSB race in the rain on SpeedVision, they were using DOT tires and it made me realize that these tires have a lot of traction in the rain. Also I very rarely use my back brake.

I think the only way to practice is to do it, just go out in the rain one day.

[Dave]

I always use both except when I'm going very slow, in which case ill drag a little rear.

But, you should be practicing how to do it, not trying to find out how to get away without doing it.

It is there for a reason..

this. I also find its sometimes helpful to drag a foot on the pavement before you start to brake. Gives you a good idea of how much grip is available and the status of the oil levels on the road

[karl_1052]

There is lots of traction available in the wet with todays tires(as long as they are not race tires).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujdDIaaxTbY

It is something you have to get comfortable with, but like Trace said, be smooth with your inputs(throttle, break and steering), or you will have an issue.

Does your local MSF have an experienced riders course?
If they do, see if you can be a walk on on a rainy day.

I did my ERC course on a rainy day, and I had a blast!

[Sean]

Your tires have alot more grip in wet weather than you might think.


Oooh that depends on where you are and the conditions...a lot. In areas where it rains frequently, rain isn't such a big deal. Here we can go without rain for 8, 9 months at a stretch. It takes a few good rainstorms to clear off all the oil, dust, muck, etc that accumulate. Until then it is SLICK!! I did one trackday where they let us out after it had rained in the morning. I got about 2 degrees of lean angle before I felt the front start to move :lol:

Be cautious, but explore your limits and with time, you'll find they'll expand! You can go pretty far in a straight line even with a locked up front than you might think--provided the front is straight up and down. Try it on a dirt bike if you ever get a chance.

[Cutty72]

I did my MSF in pouring rain, so I got the experience from the get go!

I just slow it down and be more careful with what I'm doing.
The spray off other vehicles bothers me more than the actual riding in the rain. :lol:

[Trip]

I always use both except when I'm going very slow, in which case ill drag a little rear.

But, you should be practicing how to do it, not trying to find out how to get away without doing it.

It is there for a reason..

:lol: you can't be serious :lol:

There's a lot of racers that don't use rear brake on the street/track. You don't have to use the rear on typical street conditions, it's not getting away with anything. A lot of us that don't use it, can use it if they want to, but choose not to use it. I use it all the damn time off road or on my dirt bike, but never use it on the street unless I come into a condition that calls for it like gravel or other particle debris. There is more than enough stopping power in the front of a modern sport bike than you will ever need. For you safety nazi's on the board, you aren't going to want to be backing it in on public streets anyway. Rear use is not a big concern on the street.

[Tmall]

:lol: you can't be serious :lol:

There's a lot of racers that don't use rear brake on the street/track. You don't have to use the rear on typical street conditions, it's not getting away with anything. A lot of us that don't use it, can use it if they want to, but choose not to use it. I use it all the damn time off road or on my dirt bike, but never use it on the street unless I come into a condition that calls for it like gravel or other particle debris. There is more than enough stopping power in the front of a modern sport bike than you will ever need. For you safety nazi's on the board, you aren't going to want to be backing it in on public streets anyway. Rear use is not a big concern on the street.

So, you think it's better to hide a deficiency than correct it? And you're the one laughing?? :lol

What if the topic was, "using a clutch"? Would you say that since you can technically rev match and never use it, that not learning how is a good alternative? After all, you could push the bike to get it moving and then click it into gear, who needs a pesky clutch?? :lol

[No Worries]

I get caught in the rain a lot. On corners, I just lean off the bike a little more to keep the bike more upright. Most of the roads out here are tar and chip which aren't affected much by rain. The big problem is wet steel. Manhole covers, temporary steel plates, and steel bridges are very slippery when wet. Also, slippery are the painted and vinyl pedestrian crossings and markers.

I use both brakes all the time. I'll use just the rear brake when I'm going uphill on several sharp curves. The rear brake slows the bike, keeps the suspension even, and I can downshift and exactly match the rpm with my right hand for a perfect exit. Most riders have a problem using the rear brake because their foot is so much stronger than their hand.

[Trip]

So, you think it's better to hide a deficiency than correct it? And you're the one laughing?? :lol

What if the topic was, "using a clutch"? Would you say that since you can technically rev match and never use it, that not learning how is a good alternative? After all, you could push the bike to get it moving and then click it into gear, who needs a pesky clutch?? :lol

How's it a deficiency? It's a different technique. I can use it just fine when a situation needs it. If I can get a sportbike, I will be more than happy to show you how it's done and we can see who has a deficiency in their riding. The Awesome would've been more than happy to show you since he also raced with this technique. Kevin Schwantz would be more than happy to take you to school. It's all about rider comfort, some like using the rear brake, some don't. It's not a deficiency by any means. I can use it quiet effectively on the dirt.

If you don't care about your transmission, like say if it was a race bike that would have a complete tear down after every race, yes you could get away without using the clutch. However, since we don't do that after every street ride, being kind to your transmission is a necessity. Plus we have to do all sorts of stop and go with traffic lights and all so not using the clutch would make life hard.

[Trip]

I use both brakes all the time. I'll use just the rear brake when I'm going uphill on several sharp curves. The rear brake slows the bike, keeps the suspension even, and I can downshift and exactly match the rpm with my right hand for a perfect exit. Most riders have a problem using the rear brake because their foot is so much stronger than their hand.

You have a much heavier bike than the modern sportbike as well. You want all the stopping power you can get on that thing. Cruzergirl is in the same situation. She isn't riding a cutting edge race bike. The rear brake can be effective if your front braking power is not up to the job of stopping the bike effectively. This isn't an issue for a light modern sportbike.

[OreoGaborio]

Well, regarding the front/rear brake debate, here's a direct copy/paste of a post that was just made by author, and my "boss" at the track, Ken Condon:
The rear brake aids in stability and reduces stopping distances IF done correctly.

Try this: Apply a bit of rear brake before applying the front brake to feel the stabilizing effect.

On the track, I rarely use the rear brake and instead allow a certain amount of engine braking to slow and stabilize the bike as I enter corners. For most track riders, using the rear brake pedal is too distracting and can result in rear tire lock up if not done precisely (because of drastic forward load transfer where the rear tire has little weight to keep it planted).

On the street, I use front and rear brakes all the time.
As for wet riding, the most important part about maintaining stability and traction is staying LIGHT on the bars and SMOOTH with all of your control inputs.

NEVER bet tense or white knuckled.

[OreoGaborio]

If you're not comfortable in the rain, do a track day in the rain. This was one of the single biggest things that helped me get over any fear I might have had of riding in the rain.
:rockwoot:

It sounds crazy, but he's 100% right. Doing a wet track day is some of the BEST rider education and experience that ANY street rider could get!

One of my most memorable track moments (non race) was a rainy track day at Loudon where I didn't have my rain tires with me. I rode around all day on Diablo Supercorsas which are simply TERRIBLE in the rain. I was working that day so I kept things tame, but the last session or two everyone that was on the track was doing well and traffic was light I decided to have a little fun. I was sliding ALL OVER the place & just having an absolute blast. :) It was extremely educational as to what my DOT race tires are capable of... and since I run the same tires on my street bike (take-offs) I know what they're like should I get caught in the rain on the street (yeah, i'm a fair weather rider for the most part.)

[Trip]

It's all about preference. People try to place their "preferences" on others where they are not needed.

This is about Kevin Schwantz school

Some of his preferences come into play in the course syllabus. Like his personal dislike of the rear brake, the use of which he discourages despite the fact that several of the world's top motorcycle racers currently use rear braking to rotate the bike in corners.

"I tried using the rear brake twice in my racing career", he explains. "And both times I found myself on the ground".

[Tmall]

You can be of your opinion, but two is always greater than one..

[OreoGaborio]

I'm thinking we're starting to get further away from a rainy street ride thread and more into more of a track discussion.... But....

"Rotate" the bike in corners?

[Trip]

You can be of your opinion, but two is always greater than one..

Except when one wins you championships when those two guys are behind you. FAIL... It's a preference.

[OreoGaborio]

You can be of your opinion, but two is always greater than one..
100% agreed...

Unless there are so many things going on that using both takes concentration away from places where that concentration would be more useful. This is the rational I use for not using my rear brake on the track. The "risks" outweigh the benefits. Using both slows me down in more ways than one, both figuratively and literally.

[Trip]

"Rotate" the bike in corners?

I am believe the writer of the article was referring to backing it in when he wrote that. That should be saved for another topic though.

[Cruzergirl]

I like the track day idea. Next time I'm in Birmingham I'll see if I can set one up (and that is such a nice track, but I've only seen it from the window of the museum).

Practicing in the rain is what I try to do, obviously but it is such an effort to force myself to go out there given my insecurity.

Another thing that caught me off guard was the difference between my Vstar-1100, all the Harleys I've ever riden, even the V-Max and this Victory. The Victory seems to behave very differently.

The first time I rode in the rain was when I drove the VStar to work the first week I had it (it was also my first motorcycle). It was a deluge type rain after work and the puddles were up to the middle of my front tire. There were trucks passing me spraying water in my face (I felt like I was inside a wave at the beach on occasion). There were time I couldn't see. I just had to chant to myself: "trust your gear, trust your gear". Braking wasn't the problem then.

I will look into a track day. As for dropping by on a rainy day... I live about 5 hours from Barbers... that would be difficult. :lol:

Thanks for all the input. I've been paying diligent attention to all the advice. :)

[Trip]

Can't believe no one called me on it yet. :lol:

It's impossible for me not to use the rear brake on the GS. The brakes are linked, so even though I use front only, I am still using the rear. :lol: It's only linked front to rear though, so in dirt I can use just rear.

[OreoGaborio]

Well I can believe it... I had no idea what the hell you rode :p

[Cruzergirl]

Can't believe no one called me on it yet. :lol:

It's impossible for me not to use the rear brake on the GS. The brakes are linked, so even though I use front only, I am still using the rear. :lol: It's only linked front to rear though, so in dirt I can use just rear.

Oh, too be just a bit taller. That would be my bike. BMWs rule :rockout:


But, the Victory will do, for now... :)

[Cruzergirl]

Okay jackasses... quit highjackin' my thread!


:lol

[Trip]

Oh, too be just a bit taller. That would be my bike. BMWs rule :rockout:

The 800 and 650 twins are nice too. They make a shorter 1200GS with a short seat that's completely OEM. Have you sat on one of those?

[Trip]

Okay jackasses... quit highjackin' my thread!


:lol

ok ok, I wasn't comfortable in rain til I got the GS and better tires. The more aggressive street riding tires were never comfortable for me and the RR's awesomely fun light flickability wasn't as much fun in the rain. The heavier GS is just more planted with the much more touring/DS inspired tires just makes rain riding a nonissue for me now. You may want to see if anyone recommends a better rain tire for your bike and see if that helps your confidence. Just feeling comfortable will make your riding smoother and make the experience more enjoyable and easier.

[Cruzergirl]

The 800 and 650 twins are nice too. They make a shorter 1200GS with a short seat that's completely OEM. Have you sat on one of those?

Nope. Never figured they were even an option for me.

The nearest dealer is in Tallahassee (3 hrs away).


Might have to stop by next time I run home to see the parents...

[CrazyKell]

I'm going to ignore some of the retardedness of this thread and try and give my opinion on riding in the rain.

I am very confident in the rain. This confidence wasn't always there but practice made perfect. I learned to ride in the rainy Pac NW and riding in the rain was a necessity.

Here I still get caught in the rain quite a bit and it's never caused me any issues.

Only piece of advice is to be smoother with your inputs.

[askmrjesus]

Oh, too be just a bit taller. That would be my bike. BMWs rule :rockout:


I wish I was baller, I wish I was taller....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHkj804LCl0

I can't explain how to ride in the rain, anymore than I can explain French Kissing. It's just one of those things you pick up on your own.

Anyway, stop freaking out. It's water, not monkey pox.

My best advice? Wiggle.

Riders get so caught up in staying "stable", that they very often forget to wiggle, just to see how is feels. Go out in the rain, and wiggle around a bit. It's easy, just give the bars enough of a shake to break things loose a little bit.

See? That wasn't so bad now was it? Well done! That's my brave girl! (Ok, that was a little creepy, my bad).

Right, now that you have mastered the mini-wiggle, go for the medium wiggle, with just a touch of brake. Don't go crazy. Brakes are like Brylcreem, a little dab will do ya.

Crap. Now I have explain what Brylcreem is. Heavy sigh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRcRIbExrfg

I have no idea where I'm going now. This whole thing started about riding in the rain, and somehow I got sidetracked by the stuff my Dad used to put in his hair.

To make matters worse, it just occurred to me that Alvin and the Chipmunks could totally do a cover of Foreigner's "Hot Blooded", and nobody would notice.

So, to sum up, wiggle with hair creem and chipmunks, and you'll be fine.

Oh, almost forgot. Drop about 5 psi on your tires if you're going to be in the rain for a while. Think of it like the difference between FMP's and Crocs.

JC

[Captain Morgan]

Didn't know you rode a Vic. I'm planning on buying a Vegas sometime soon. Will end up picking up a used one, though, as I don't see the point in buying new since they don't seem to hold value all that well. How do you like the feel of the front brake? I've heard it can be an issue, at least with the Vegas since it has such a large front tire. Is the Kingpin a lot different? Is the front too soft, or does it stop the bike well?

[goof2]

I will look into a track day. As for dropping by on a rainy day... I live about 5 hours from Barbers... that would be difficult. :lol:

Jennings may be closer to you than Barber, but either way I don't think I would do a trackday on a Victory. I could be wrong but I don't think a cruiser on the track would thrill me, especially with sportbikes blasting past me all day.:idk:

[101lifts2]

I have no issue riding in rain, but on the ZX6r the front brake is so powerful that you don't even need the rear (though I use it just from habit). On the track, I use it sparringly.

On cruisers and my EX500 you need the rear brake or you are simply not stopping in any short distances.

[marko138]

:lol: you can't be serious :lol:

There's a lot of racers that don't use rear brake on the street/track. You don't have to use the rear on typical street conditions, it's not getting away with anything. A lot of us that don't use it, can use it if they want to, but choose not to use it. I use it all the damn time off road or on my dirt bike, but never use it on the street unless I come into a condition that calls for it like gravel or other particle debris. There is more than enough stopping power in the front of a modern sport bike than you will ever need. For you safety nazi's on the board, you aren't going to want to be backing it in on public streets anyway. Rear use is not a big concern on the street.

And here we go..... I knew this thread would turn in to this arguement.

[Trip]

And here we go..... I knew this thread would turn in to this arguement.

shut up douche

[Cruzergirl]

I wish I was baller, I wish I was taller....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHkj804LCl0

I can't explain how to ride in the rain, anymore than I can explain French Kissing. It's just one of those things you pick up on your own.

Anyway, stop freaking out. It's water, not monkey pox.

My best advice? Wiggle.

Riders get so caught up in staying "stable", that they very often forget to wiggle, just to see how is feels. Go out in the rain, and wiggle around a bit. It's easy, just give the bars enough of a shake to break things loose a little bit.

See? That wasn't so bad now was it? Well done! That's my brave girl! (Ok, that was a little creepy, my bad).

Right, now that you have mastered the mini-wiggle, go for the medium wiggle, with just a touch of brake. Don't go crazy. Brakes are like Brylcreem, a little dab will do ya.

Crap. Now I have explain what Brylcreem is. Heavy sigh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRcRIbExrfg

I have no idea where I'm going now. This whole thing started about riding in the rain, and somehow I got sidetracked by the stuff my Dad used to put in his hair.

To make matters worse, it just occurred to me that Alvin and the Chipmunks could totally do a cover of Foreigner's "Hot Blooded", and nobody would notice.

So, to sum up, wiggle with hair creem and chipmunks, and you'll be fine.

Oh, almost forgot. Drop about 5 psi on your tires if you're going to be in the rain for a while. Think of it like the difference between FMP's and Crocs.

JC

Damn, I almost spit coffee into the keyboard. I will try the "wiggle" technique. And I will also quite whining. And, yeah, that was a bit creepy coming from MrJ.

:lol: