All teachers fired at Rhode Island school

[pauldun170]

All teachers fired at Rhode Island school
From Randi Kaye, CNN's AC360°
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Board votes to discharge all teachers, other educators at Central Falls High School

District, union failed to reach agreement for teachers to spend more time with students

Union president says teachers scapegoated, union will fight to reinstate them

Terminations will go into effect in the next school year

(CNN) -- A school board in Rhode Island has voted to fire all teachers at a struggling high school, a dramatic and controversial plan aimed at shoring up education in a poverty-ridden school district.

In a 5-2 vote Tuesday night, the board approved the plan by Frances Gallo, superintendent at Central Falls School District, to discharge the teachers at Central Falls High School.

The firings came after the district said it failed to reach an agreement with the teachers' union on a plan for the instructors to spend more time with students to improve test scores.

Among those affected are the school's 74 classroom teachers and other educators, such as guidance counselors and reading specialists, the union said.

The terminations will go into effect in the next school year.

A union spokesman called the firings "drastic" and cited a 21 percent rise in reading scores and a 3 percent hike in math scores in two years.

Central Falls High is one of the lowest-performing schools in Rhode Island. It is in a community where median income is $22,000, census figures show.

Of the 800 students, 65 percent are Hispanic, and for most of them, English is a second language. Half of the students are failing every subject, with 55 percent skilled in reading and 7 percent proficient in math, officials said.

In a proposal based on federal guidelines, Gallo asked teachers to work a longer school day of seven hours and tutor students weekly for one hour outside of school time.

She also proposed teachers have lunch with students often, meet for 90 minutes every week to discuss education and set aside two weeks during summer break for paid professional development.

The union spokesman said the teachers had accepted most of the changes but wanted to work out compensation for the extra hours of work.

The superintendent said the two sides could not agree on a pay rate.

Under new federal requirements for school reform, low-performing schools have several options for shaping up. One is called the transformation model, which includes a series of changes that teachers just agree to adopt.

When the negotiations on those changes failed at Central Falls High, the superintendent switched to another option: the turnaround model, which means firing every teacher at a troubled school.

Central Falls High teacher Kathy May said she is disheartened. "I feel like, after 20 years, I can see some progress beginning to be made. And I'm sad that we're not going to be around to follow that through, to push that forward," May said.

Gallo -- who said Rhode Island law requires notice must be given by March 1 -- said the problem isn't solely the fault of teachers and it wasn't her preference to make the move.

She indicated that some teachers might be rehired.

"When we had to move from the transformation model, the next best move was the turnaround model. And that requires us to remove the teachers and rehire, of those who reapply, up to 50 percent," she said.

"This is a major move, for a very significant reason, and that being that we couldn't hone in on the assurances we needed for the transformation model."

Asked what would happen if the teachers' union accepted the original terms, Gallo said it would be difficult to go back, but that such a move can't be discounted.

"And if, as we approach 120 days of planning as we move forward, if indeed something of that effect comes around, then I still think we have a lot of doors that could be opened," she said.

At a community rally before Tuesday's school board meeting, supporters of the teachers slammed the plan.

Jane Sessums, president of the Central Falls Teachers Union, said teachers have been "unfairly targeted" and scapegoated and the union will fight to have them reinstated.

"We want genuine reforms, not quick fixes that do nothing but create a wedge between teachers, our school and our community," Sessums said. She added that "teachers have agreed to numerous solutions and reforms."

George McLaughlin, a guidance counselor who was fired along with his wife, a chemistry teacher, said the school has been inaccurately cast as a place with low graduation rates.

"We have the most transient population in this state. Nobody comes close to us. So when they say that 50 percent of the people graduate, a very high percentage of our students leave our school. They return. They leave again. They go back to other countries," he said

McLaughlin said three times as many of the school's students are accepted to colleges now than they were five years ago.

He also was critical of the superintendent, saying Gallo "has been with us for a little more than three years."

McLaughlin said if Gallo were willing to negotiate and listen to former Sen. Lincoln Chafee, R-Rhode Island, who offered to mediate, "maybe we could resolve this instead of causing more trauma to us."

McLaughlin said the negotiations were about job security, not pay, and said teachers are ready to resume talks.








Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/24/rhode.island.teachers/?hpt=T2

[ontwo]

I like the idea. They can still rehire those teacher who give a crap while getting rid of the dead weight.

[Particle Man]

In concept sure... But it sets a very dangerous precedent...

[ontwo]

Not really. It appears that the state had that plan in place. She's just the first to use it. It appears that the school was about to be shut down anyway. What's there to lose?

[EpyonXero]

I like the idea. They can still rehire those teacher who give a crap while getting rid of the dead weight.

Teachers are already underpaid in general. Are the people who wanted fair compensation for the extra time the district was asking from them dead weight? Now the district will hire replacements or the teachers who just need a paycheck for lower pay and the truly talented teachers will find work elsewhere.

[Particle Man]

and the truly talented teachers will find work elsewhere.

No, they won't. Not sure about the market there, but the teacher job market here is oversaturated with certified teachers looking for work... Hence my worry about this dangerous precedent.

And those who think teachers are overpaid: it goes well beyond the classroom, all the shit they have to do.

[goof2]

Teachers are already underpaid in general. Are the people who wanted fair compensation for the extra time the district was asking from them dead weight? Now the district will hire replacements or the teachers who just need a paycheck for lower pay and the truly talented teachers will find work elsewhere.

The "fair compensation" the teachers were offered was $30/hour. The union defined "fair" as $90/hour, for teachers at a school where half the students are failing every subject. I wouldn't normally like this outcome due to its arbitrary nature, but the teachers decided to stand together and let their union negotiate for them. They can also stand together and accept the consequences of that decision.

[Smittie61984]

Teachers are already underpaid in general. Are the people who wanted fair compensation for the extra time the district was asking from them dead weight? Now the district will hire replacements or the teachers who just need a paycheck for lower pay and the truly talented teachers will find work elsewhere.

They are underpaid and should be paid a bagillion dollars a year for the oh so fantastic job they were doing.

The new teachers (or some old teachers) that they hire on will see that they can be fired for sucking and will then do a better job in order to keep their job. That's how it works in the private sector, and that is how it shoudl work in the government sector.

I like this story. THen again I like any story where a union gets the shafting.

[defector]

Have you ever heard somebody with a thick RI accent? No wonder kids can't learn shit there.

[Particle Man]

Have you ever heard somebody with a thick RI accent? No wonder kids can't learn shit there.

You mean like the kids were told to go play in the YAHd?

[derf]

I was reading an article in the paper for my parents town, the school district has 18 administrators making over 150k/yr. They hired an interim superintendant at a cost of $825 a day, and the assistant superintendants pay was just increased by 1000 a week this year. The total school district operating budget is 77mil. The total number of kids in school is 5400.

[goof2]

I was reading an article in the paper for my parents town, the school district has 18 administrators making over 150k/yr. They hired an interim superintendant at a cost of $825 a day, and the assistant superintendants pay was just increased by 1000 a week this year. The total school district operating budget is 77mil. The total number of kids in school is 5400.

And I'll bet the administrators bitch about the budget they have to work with. This is why I think the school voucher idea is pretty good. They are spending $14k+ per student per year of taxpayer money. If parents aren't happy with their child's education they should get some of that back to spend on a school that does a better job.

[Smittie61984]

And I'll bet the administrators bitch about the budget they have to work with. This is why I think the school voucher idea is pretty good. They are spending $14k+ per student per year of taxpayer money. If parents aren't happy with their child's education they should get some of that back to spend on a school that does a better job.

Another great idea stopped by Unions and the Department of Education (probably the biggest disaster to ever hit America). They've come straight out and said the reason is because they think "competition" will hurt the schools. Until our DOE can figure out the basic concepts of the capitalist system that America was founded on, I don't believe we can trust them.

[Kaneman]

And those who think teachers are overpaid: it goes well beyond the classroom, all the shit they have to do.

I'm gonna go against the grain here and say that I don't believe teachers are underpaid. Its kinda like how housewives tried to convince us that staying home with the kids is such a hard job....and we bought it. Men began to think, "Well, I better go work, cause I don't want the extremely hard job of staying home all day." Which is complete bullshit of course, housewiving is very, very, very easy.

Teaching is the same to me. First of all, they don't work a full year, so right off the bat you take a pay hit. Secondly, there are so many teaching aids that they don't even really do anything as far as drawing on their own knowledge to teach. At my son's school they use a website called "Raz-Kids". When I first went to his school and saw it I was like WHAT THE FUCK?!? lol.

I could understand if it was teaching kids how to use computers...but its not....its a website that does the teacher's job. Aside from that, their main job is to teach their kids to pass federally mandated tests, not to actually learn something about the world....so, how hard is it to teach from a workbook?

Now, I'm not saying I'd want to be a teacher....cause that job sucks. Have you ever seen all the kids inside a school? Fuckin' gross.

[Particle Man]

teachers don't work a full year.

I hope you don't really believe this. It is Wrong. Teachers don't have to go into the building all year, yes, but that doesn't mean they don't keep doing their jobs all summer.

Between curriculum development, preparation for incoming special needs kids, meeting with the next grade to brief them on each kid coming into their classes, etc it's rare when my wife (who is an elementary school teacher) gets to take a break even in the summer and goes to bed after 1am every night.

Trust me, most teachers work a full year even though the school itself is closed over the summer.

I taught high school previously and I worked all year as well.

[Kaneman]

I hope you don't really believe this. It is Wrong. Teachers don't have to go into the building all year, yes, but that doesn't mean they don't keep doing their jobs all summer.

Between curriculum development, preparation for incoming special needs kids, meeting with the next grade to brief them on each kid coming into their classes, etc it's rare when my wife (who is an elementary school teacher) gets to take a break even in the summer and goes to bed after 1am every night.

Trust me, most teachers work a full year even though the school itself is closed over the summer.

I taught high school previously and I worked all year as well.

Maybe its easier in Tx. then. I have a good friend and an aunt who teach here in North Texas and they're always bragging about their summer off. Sure they stay a little later and go back a little earlier...but essentially they do have the entire summer off from school.

If you tell me that's not the case elsewhere I'd have no trouble believing it, as the schools here are so unbelievably fucked up I usually spend an hour everyday deprogramming my son when he gets home.

[goof2]

I hope you don't really believe this. It is Wrong. Teachers don't have to go into the building all year, yes, but that doesn't mean they don't keep doing their jobs all summer.

Between curriculum development, preparation for incoming special needs kids, meeting with the next grade to brief them on each kid coming into their classes, etc it's rare when my wife (who is an elementary school teacher) gets to take a break even in the summer and goes to bed after 1am every night.

Trust me, most teachers work a full year even though the school itself is closed over the summer.

I taught high school previously and I worked all year as well.

I don't dispute the work your wife does or you did, but I have not seen similar effort from the teachers I know. I commend the effort you both put in while I still recognize it was voluntary and not a choice many teachers seem to make.

Regardless, I think both you and your wife would agree that $90/hour to try and fix a failing school is a ridiculous demand.

[derf]

Yup teachers around here are always bitching about not being paid for the summer when they arnt working, many of them get temp jobs during the summer

[Tmall]

I think up here they get either ei benefits, or the school boards put a % of pay aside and give it to them when they're off.

[Apoc]

I think up here they get either ei benefits, or the school boards put a % of pay aside and give it to them when they're off.

Ya, their salary is divided in 52 weeks. Its in their contract.

[goof2]

Teachers in this state can choose to have their salary paid over the full year or only get paid when school is in session. It is up to them. Their benefits are in effect for the full year under either pay plan.

[Smittie61984]

Between curriculum development, preparation for incoming special needs kids, meeting with the next grade to brief them on each kid coming into their classes, etc it's rare when my wife (who is an elementary school teacher) gets to take a break even in the summer and goes to bed after 1am every night.


How much preparation does it really take? If you teach let's say general math, do you really need to think of new ways to teach kids 25x2=50? Even in my college level Anatomy and Physiology class, the students who took it before say it is taught the exact same way as it was last year.

Now you said your wife deals with retarded kids. I can understand having to be prepped on each student and working hard to adjust to each student. I also believe those teachers do get paid more to compensate. But the majority of the students in our school systems are not retarded (lazy but not retarded).

These teachers in RI believed they worked for the teachers union and not the school. Now they are out of a job because of it and that is how it should be. If you are sucking in the private sector you can do two things. You can stay after and work hard (without extra pay) to get what needs to be done done, or you can get fired.

[sherri_chickie]

I would love to see anyone who is not a teacher, who thinks teachers have it so easy, come into a classroom and teach for a week, including all the meetings, prep, grading etc that is involved. I worked it out. Even with 6 weeks off in the summer and two weeks of Christmas break and a week of spring break I worked over 50 hours a week/ 50 weeks a year.

And I said 6 weeks off in summer because that is all we got, the rest was going back early, getting out late, and professional development courses in the summer.

[Smittie61984]

If teaching is so bad then why teach? If teachers started leaving for jobs in the private sector then schools would start offering more money as demand for teachers grew (you can ask any Econ teacher). Obviously teaching isn't so bad if there seems to be an overabundance of teachers. Half the girls in my A&P class have teaching degrees or were teachers who are going to school for nursing because they can't find a job in teaching.

I'm also not buying into this "teaching is oh so hard, woe is me" crap. Teaching has always been known to be a cushy job. If it wasn't then they'd take jobs in the private sector for more money but they know they can never have as nice of a job as teaching in the private sector.

People teach for the easy job and the money. Nothing more and nothing less.

Oh yeah, I don't want to hear this "teaching is about the kids" crap either. If it was truly about that then the teachers in RI would be staying after school helping those children and this would have not made the news because they all wouldn't have been fired for demanding MORE MONEY.

[goof2]

I would love to see anyone who is not a teacher, who thinks teachers have it so easy, come into a classroom and teach for a week, including all the meetings, prep, grading etc that is involved. I worked it out. Even with 6 weeks off in the summer and two weeks of Christmas break and a week of spring break I worked over 50 hours a week/ 50 weeks a year.

And I said 6 weeks off in summer because that is all we got, the rest was going back early, getting out late, and professional development courses in the summer.

That is fine, but at this particular school half the students were failing every class they were taking. Maybe these teachers were doing everything they could to change that and maybe they weren't. To demand $90/hour for some extra work to try and improve is more than a little ridiculous. Maybe they did so because they didn't want to do the extra work or thought it wouldn't make a difference. If either is the case the school was going to be shut down anyway. At $90/hour I am happy with this result.

[Particle Man]

Josh: NY is definitely a totally different world in education. There's a ridiculous number of rules and crap here.

You have to REALLY love it to do it for any length of time. I got out because I spent more time dealing with political BS than actually teaching... I make much more money now but not a day goes by when I didn't wish I was standing in front of a classroom...

[Apoc]

Josh: NY is definitely a totally different world in education. There's a ridiculous number of rules and crap here.

You have to REALLY love it to do it for any length of time. I got out because I spent more time dealing with political BS than actually teaching... I make much more money now but not a day goes by when I didn't wish I was standing in front of a classroom...

Im damn glad your not teaching the future generations! redflip

Honestly, I didnt know you were a teacher! What do you do now?

[sherri_chickie]

I have had other jobs and I was bored with them. Teaching is so much more than just the "teaching" aspect now. There is a lot of political crap, testing etc. I could do a different job and make more money I am sure but I love feeling like I may be making a difference in the world or even to just one child who needs someone. It is not a cushy job by any means and anyone who thinks so has been misinformed.

[CrazyKell]

People teach for the easy job and the money. Nothing more and nothing less.

You're an idiot if you truly believe that. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Kaneman]

You're an idiot if you truly believe that. Nothing more and nothing less.

Are you serious, have you even met some of the teachers out there?

[CrazyKell]

Are you serious, have you even met some of the teachers out there?

Completely. There are some super shitty teachers and unfortunately the profession is over run with them. But to put a blanket out that people do it for the money (there isn't any) or the "easy" job. :rolleyes: Naive at best.

[Kaneman]

I don't think he was saying all teachers are in it for that reason, though I could be wrong. I would imagine teachers (in the U.S.A.) that really want to teach don't apply to public schools and instead go to charter or private schools where there is some semblance of real education.

Public schools get the lackies, and while all of them aren't in it for the money or easy work....I bet most of them are.

(My comments refer only to the U.S.A., I'd bet Canada's education system is more advanced than ours)

[Particle Man]

Im damn glad your not teaching the future generations! redflip

Honestly, I didnt know you were a teacher! What do you do now?

I'm a consultant for an insurance company. I do all sorts of stuff and fly all over and help large companies understand that it's worth the investment up front in helping people stay healthy (outside of workplace injuries; that's another industry... I do non-occ stuff). It's a lot more complicated than that but that's the easiest way to explain it.

It's another way to make a difference.

[ceo012384]

so lets see.... you're doing a poor job and your results are lacking.

so you need to work harder.

and to do that you demand 90 bucks an hour for the extra time?

yup, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

fuck unions.... they're like communism, it was a good idea, but poorly implemented and doesn't work in reality

[Apoc]

fuck unions....

Fuck you....

[njchopper87]

Public schools get the lackies, and while all of them aren't in it for the money or easy work....I bet most of them are.

I had plenty of great teachers where I went. I guess some schools just don't have a good screening process?

so lets see.... you're doing a poor job and your results are lacking.

so you need to work harder.

and to do that you demand 90 bucks an hour for the extra time?

yup, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

fuck unions.... they're like communism, it was a good idea, but poorly implemented and doesn't work in reality

Didn't they say half the kids don't even speak english that well? I can't really come to their defense when I'm not there in person, but if the students can't understand what the teachers are saying then it isn't completely their fault. Save for the english teachers..

I agree this was a poor stance on the union here, but I see first person what life is like without a union and it blows. Maybe it just depends on the line of work? I'll hand it to you some unions out there seem a little convoluted and greedy now, though.

Have any of you complaining actually been part of a union before? I may be using my father's experience, but I've lived on both sides of the fence nonetheless. Why do you hate them so much?

[goof2]

I had plenty of great teachers where I went. I guess some schools just don't have a good screening process?



Didn't they say half the kids don't even speak english that well? I can't really come to their defense when I'm not there in person, but if the students can't understand what the teachers are saying then it isn't completely their fault. Save for the english teachers..

I agree this was a poor stance on the union here, but I see first person what life is like without a union and it blows. Maybe it just depends on the line of work? I'll hand it to you some unions out there seem a little convoluted and greedy now, though.

Have any of you complaining actually been part of a union before? I may be using my father's experience, but I've lived on both sides of the fence nonetheless. Why do you hate them so much?

Stories like this leave me with the impression that unions sometimes don't realize that their membership depends on the future of their employer. They tried to "get their's", which is fine, but their inflexibility made the situation unsustainable and ultimately cost their members their jobs. Another example is the UAW. They weren't alone in driving GM in to the ground but they certainly played a part in killing the company. I've heard some (granted, not many) argue "Well GM didn't have to agree to the union's demands". From what I saw the UAW would have pushed GM to the brink and beyond to get a better deal for their members. That attitude cost a lot of people.

Don't get me wrong, unions played a large part in balancing the scales in what used to be an unfair relationship between labor and employer. That being said I'm really not sure the majority of them serve the same purpose today.

[Kaneman]

I had plenty of great teachers where I went. I guess some schools just don't have a good screening process?

Didn't they say half the kids don't even speak english that well? I can't really come to their defense when I'm not there in person, but if the students can't understand what the teachers are saying then it isn't completely their fault. Save for the english teachers..



Here, in Tx., the teachers are only part of the problem. The curriculum is worthless and fucked up so even if the teachers do care they can't teach anything useful anyway. Secondly, at least at my son's school, half the kids don't speak English....and the teacher doesn't speak Spanish.....so basically you've got half the kids in class that are just a distraction and ensure that nobody else gets to learn anything. Then compound that with zero tolerance policies and a severe lack of administration common sense and you have a system that is no conducive to real learning.

My son is excelling in Kindergarten....but I spent all summer home with him teaching him to read, how to add and subtract and giving him history lessons. I like spending time with my son, don't get me wrong, but why should I have to educate him when I pay taxes that fund a broken school system?

Arrg.

[Smittie61984]

You're an idiot if you truly believe that. Nothing more and nothing less.

Oh yeah, it's such a hard job. That's why every skanky dumbass party whore of a girl I know is going to school to get a major in "Education" so they can teach. WOW, you are going to do 4 years (or more in many cases) of college to learn how to teach 12 year olds that 2+x=4 despite that a few years ago they were learning that 2+_=4. Most teachers these days don't have a real degree like Biology, Math, Engineering, or even English because if they had the brains for that then they'd be in the private sector working HARD. Instead they get their education major so they can get an easy job that once they get it can't be fired easily.

And again if the teachers really did give a shit about the children then why were they demanding more money? I thought they "cared about the children". Truth is those teachers wouldn't give a shit if those kids caught on fire, as long as they don't have to stay after and DO THEIR FUCKING JOB.

Anyone who works in the private sector, including people on salary, stay after and do work despite they aren't getting paid a lot of the times. They do it because they can be held accountable unlike those POS teachers or any other union protected thug.

Oh yeah, that "spanish" shit. My guess is that many teachers know spanish becuase odds are they probably took it (if they were smart) in college. If they didn't take it then I'm sure there are plenty of spanish speaking teachers ready to jump in (to an apparently undesirable job) for less.

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach (and those who Can't Do shit get elected).

[Apoc]

Oh yeah, it's such a hard job. That's why every skanky dumbass party whore of a girl I know is going to school to get a major in "Education" so they can teach. WOW, you are going to do 4 years (or more in many cases) of college to learn how to teach 12 year olds that 2+x=4 despite that a few years ago they were learning that 2+_=4. Most teachers these days don't have a real degree like Biology, Math, Engineering, or even English because if they had the brains for that then they'd be in the private sector working HARD. Instead they get their education major so they can get an easy job that once they get it can't be fired easily.

And again if the teachers really did give a shit about the children then why were they demanding more money? I thought they "cared about the children". Truth is those teachers wouldn't give a shit if those kids caught on fire, as long as they don't have to stay after and DO THEIR FUCKING JOB.

Anyone who works in the private sector, including people on salary, stay after and do work despite they aren't getting paid a lot of the times. They do it because they can be held accountable unlike those POS teachers or any other union protected thug.

Oh yeah, that "spanish" shit. My guess is that many teachers know spanish becuase odds are they probably took it (if they were smart) in college. If they didn't take it then I'm sure there are plenty of spanish speaking teachers ready to jump in (to an apparently undesirable job) for less.

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach (and those who Can't Do shit get elected).

Did you get molested by a teacher? Or did you get a piss poor education?

Good teachers work extremely hard, wether you like it or not. Its not teaching one kid to add, and its teaching 30, and meeting their individual needs at the same time.

[CrazyKell]

Oh yeah, it's such a hard job. That's why every skanky dumbass party whore of a girl I know is going to school to get a major in "Education" so they can teach. WOW, you are going to do 4 years (or more in many cases) of college to learn how to teach 12 year olds that 2+x=4 despite that a few years ago they were learning that 2+_=4. Most teachers these days don't have a real degree like Biology, Math, Engineering, or even English because if they had the brains for that then they'd be in the private sector working HARD. Instead they get their education major so they can get an easy job that once they get it can't be fired easily.

And again if the teachers really did give a shit about the children then why were they demanding more money? I thought they "cared about the children". Truth is those teachers wouldn't give a shit if those kids caught on fire, as long as they don't have to stay after and DO THEIR FUCKING JOB.

Anyone who works in the private sector, including people on salary, stay after and do work despite they aren't getting paid a lot of the times. They do it because they can be held accountable unlike those POS teachers or any other union protected thug.

Oh yeah, that "spanish" shit. My guess is that many teachers know spanish becuase odds are they probably took it (if they were smart) in college. If they didn't take it then I'm sure there are plenty of spanish speaking teachers ready to jump in (to an apparently undesirable job) for less.

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach (and those who Can't Do shit get elected).

I will now refer to you as Dr. Wackadoo and nothing else.

Good day Dr. Wackadoo!

[Particle Man]

:lol: [/argument]




Dr. Wackadoo

[azoomm]

I'm a believer that dealing with the kids isn't the problem. It's dealing with the administration and the parents that are usually the problem.

[Particle Man]

I'm a believer that dealing with the kids isn't the problem. It's dealing with the administration and the parents that are usually the problem.

THIS

totally

[pauldun170]

Teachers are representative of the community they serve.
If the teachers in your school suck...chances are you and you your community suck.


As for "education" majors. Used to be 4 years of whatever (insert History\English\etc majors) followed by a Masters in Education (get yo lesson plan on and discover how much you hate children. then decide you want to do special needs stuff because "thats where the jobs are\ be able to pull the "make a difference" card)

Then they go roaming around trying to get jobs at good school districts, only to be rejected because they were a dime a dozen.

Meanwhile, those who did their undergrad in Math or(insert science here) and then went for the masters are cashing in on the lulz.
Those who did a double major in both Math and Science get a free "touch a child while doped up on weed" card.


In all seriousness, the problem with schools today are rooted in parents.

BITCH BITCH BITCH
SUE SUE SUE
VOTE VOTE VOTE

Testing testing testing
bullshit bullshit bullshit.



Now all those teachers wanted to actually educate are being told....no no no. You need to get the little fucknuts to do well on all the standardized testing. Focus on the numbers. Focus on results!! Have a cookie FYI...we can't afford school supplies or poorly written bullshit textbooks from christfag Texas schoolbook publishers because we spent all our money on these here computers. Even though all these little brats have computers in the home and could easily go to the public library if they didn't, some old shithead said we need to computerize everything because Tron is going to happen and the kids need to be prepared.

So after 2-3 years the dream of every Teacher is not to teach the little bastard children raised on "eco save the planet cartoons" and soda, its to get a job in administration.




I'm just kidding.

The problem with the education system is the same as with hospitals.
The problem is that they are primarily run by women.
Any industry run by women is bound to be fucked up.

[Apoc]

Teachers are representative of the community they serve.
If the teachers in your school suck...chances are you and you your community suck.
.

That about sums it up. If your not enough of a parent to make sure your kids do well, dont blame the fucking teachers.

If I have kids, they will do well in school, or they will be cut off from everything they enjoy. Marks improve, they get their life back. And if they truly have academic problems, they will get whatever help they need, at whatever the cost.

Most people dont realize that the best thing they can give their child, is an education.

[Homeslice]

A union spokesman called the firings "drastic" and cited a 21 percent rise in reading scores and a 3 percent hike in math scores in two years.


So, this means that if the average reading and math scores were 60 and 60, they have now risen to 72 and 62, respectively. Still weaksauce. :ws:

Teachers are dime a dozen, there are tons of 'em willing to move hundreds of miles to take a job.

[Papa_Complex]

In all seriousness, the problem with schools today are rooted in parents.

BITCH BITCH BITCH
SUE SUE SUE
VOTE VOTE VOTE

Testing testing testing
bullshit bullshit bullshit.

Whether stated seriously or not, this resonates with me. I frequently hear profs talking about parents, as I travel around campus. When little Johnny gets a D or, heaven forfend he actually FAILS, the parents truck themselves in to talk with the prof, or department head. What are they asking? It's not, "How can we help Johnny to be better?" Instead it's, "Johnny can't fail. He needs that mark to do well when he graduates. YOU WILL CHANGE THAT MARK!"

[Apoc]

YOU WILL CHANGE THAT MARK!"

This is the one time i'd like to be a teacher, to deal with idiot parents.

"He can change it himself, next year, when he does the course again!"

[Papa_Complex]

This is the one time i'd like to be a teacher, to deal with idiot parents.

"He can change it himself, next year, when he does the course again!"

Oddly enough, that has been said ;)

[Smittie61984]

I will now refer to you as Dr. Wackadoo and nothing else.

Good day Dr. Wackadoo!

Whatever. You make BS claims about how "teachers do it for the love", despite in the very first post is an article about teachers who are in it for the money.

And again how fucking hard it is to teach? Starting pay for a Cop or Firefighter in Georgia is about $26k. Starting for teacher? $34k. Do you think that being a teacher is harder and more dangerous than being a cop? If you believe that then you are an idiot and most likely a government teacher.

[sherri_chickie]

Just because a person wants to be fairly compensated for their work does not mean they are only in it for the money. I love teaching, but if I was not paid well I would go find another job that I enjoyed with kids that paid better. Enough said. I did not go to University for 6 years and pour my heart into my job to be paid like crap.

Smittie61984. Most often the hardest part of teaching is not the actual teaching itself. It is everything that is placed on top of you in addition to the actual 6 hours or so you spend in a classroom with the students. To be a good teacher there is a lot of planning, every year you revamp your lessons, you reflect on what went well, what needs to be changed, what will work with this particular group of kids and what wont. You are parents defacto, especially in inner city areas. From this article it is apparent that this is the case here and that they are quite transient, which means no matter how hard you work likely a third of your class is transferring in from another school and will not benefit from your hard work anyhow. I also know that my kids in Texas were more worried about if there was food when they got home, or if they were going to be beaten, than they were about how they scored on a test. It's a different world.

I also think that Cops and Firemen should make wages that reflect the fact that they risk their lives for the public every day. It's pretty pathetic that the guy who picks up my garbage would make more than they do. ( P.S. here, a cop with a few years experience makes a LOT more than I do, and I am not complaining about what I make)

[goof2]

Just because a person wants to be fairly compensated for their work does not mean they are only in it for the money.

In this case the teachers were offered $30/hour, which they rejected. Their union demanded $90/hour. That is a more aggressive demand than simply wanting to be "fairly compensated".

For all: I introduced the $30/hour vs. $90/hour without a source and it isn't mentioned in the original post or most articles covering the story. Below is a link for reference.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/rhode-island-school-fires-74-teachers/story?id=9911693

[pauldun170]

County cops around here average 100K a year.
Lets not forget the obscene benefits (including retirement) they get for just 20 years service.
Teachers (HS) average about 70K I think but it's probably higher.

We have a volunteer FD. I have no idea how it all works but they do get extra tax breaks.

County Cops for the most part act like they are part of the community and tend to treat people with respect (unlike the US vs the Civilians nonsense the rest of you seem happy with)

Our Schools are very good but NCLB has really dumbed things down and screwed us over.

[Apoc]

County cops around here average 100K a year.
Lets not forget the obscene benefits (including retirement) they get for just 20 years service.
.

I hardly call retirement and benefits 'obscene' for a person who put their life on the line for 20 years. And I dont even really like cops.

[Papa_Complex]

Whatever. You make BS claims about how "teachers do it for the love", despite in the very first post is an article about teachers who are in it for the money.

And again how fucking hard it is to teach? Starting pay for a Cop or Firefighter in Georgia is about $26k. Starting for teacher? $34k. Do you think that being a teacher is harder and more dangerous than being a cop? If you believe that then you are an idiot and most likely a government teacher.

So people should starve, so that they can raise other people's kids? No, that isn't a reasonable argument. Not any more than is yours.

So that's what the starting pay is. What is it after 5 years? Ten?

[Homeslice]

County cops around here average 100K a year.
.

I should certainly hope so, with that cost of living.

[derf]

County cops around here average 100K a year.
Lets not forget the obscene benefits (including retirement) they get for just 20 years service.
Teachers (HS) average about 70K I think but it's probably higher.

We have a volunteer FD. I have no idea how it all works but they do get extra tax breaks.

County Cops for the most part act like they are part of the community and tend to treat people with respect (unlike the US vs the Civilians nonsense the rest of you seem happy with)

Our Schools are very good but NCLB has really dumbed things down and screwed us over.


I'm one of those benefits peoples you mentioned, 8 years left until i start leeching off the system :lol

My dad also is a vol firefighter, he gets all kinds of tax breaks, any costs that he can associate with the fire company is a tax write off, plus they are going to give him a $500/month retirement if he does 20 years volunteer service with them, it kicks in at 65, and he gets an extra $100/month for every 5 years he does after his first 20.

[Smittie61984]

So people should starve, so that they can raise other people's kids? No, that isn't a reasonable argument. Not any more than is yours.

So that's what the starting pay is. What is it after 5 years? Ten?

No, but if they don't like the pay then they can go somewhere else. Or here is a wild idea! They can get together and start their own school. If they are such great teachers then they shouldn't have any problems getting students and charging them $90 an hour. Problem is that most teachers haven't spent 1 minute in the private sector. They went through HS, College, and Grad school (for some) living completely off their parents and probably struggle with balancing a check book, much less a business where they are actually held responsible for their actions (which is why they are probably government school teachers).

I hope there is a follow up story on this school a year or two from now. My guess is there will be improvement and it'll prove how shitty teachers unions are and those sorry ass teachers were.

I think after 20 some odd years on the police force you can bring in about $45k. $55k if you are college educated. That's providing you haven't been killed.

AVERAGE pay for teachers in Georgia is about $50k. Oh yeah, you're not getting shot at and I don't give a fuck what anyone says, you get summers off and can make more money working a summer job.

[Papa_Complex]

And in New York a school teacher might have as much chance of being shot as does a cop :lol:

Saying that a cop or fireman is more important than a school teacher is a straw man. They do different jobs that are no less valuable to each other in society.

[CrazyKell]

Seriously you have one fucked up view on education buddy.

Were you molested by a teacher as a child? I'm not even kidding when I say this because your views are EFFED!!!!

[Kaneman]

I'm not even kidding when I say this because your views are EFFED!!!!

He's young, so yea.

[Smittie61984]

Seriously you have one fucked up view on education buddy.

Were you molested by a teacher as a child? I'm not even kidding when I say this because your views are EFFED!!!!

Unfortunately no.

I'm just tired of teachers bitching about how tough their job is and when they fail they can't believe that they should be held accountable for their failure. Teachers do not have to compete to keep their job which makes them sorry (same for most government workers). People are forced at gun point to send their kids to a paticular school with the only option out is to pay up yourself (despite you already pay taxes for your kids to go there) or move to a better school system. Not to mention teachers will kick, scream, and go down in the blaze of glory to oppose any measures that might make them accountable for their fuck ups and improve the school system. Mainly becuase to improve the school system, one step is to hold teachers accountable which in teacher's eyes are just complete bullshit.

Unions are shitty in the private sector. Government unions are shittier and then you have teacher unions which are complete shit because they have the "think of the children" card in their back pockets.

[CrazyKell]

I think you have repressed your molestation.

[Papa_Complex]

Unfortunately no.

I'm just tired of teachers bitching about how tough their job is and when they fail they can't believe that they should be held accountable for their failure. Teachers do not have to compete to keep their job which makes them sorry (same for most government workers). People are forced at gun point to send their kids to a paticular school with the only option out is to pay up yourself (despite you already pay taxes for your kids to go there) or move to a better school system. Not to mention teachers will kick, scream, and go down in the blaze of glory to oppose any measures that might make them accountable for their fuck ups and improve the school system. Mainly becuase to improve the school system, one step is to hold teachers accountable which in teacher's eyes are just complete bullshit.

Unions are shitty in the private sector. Government unions are shittier and then you have teacher unions which are complete shit because they have the "think of the children" card in their back pockets.

You can only hold someone so accountable for their performance, when the mark by which they are measured is someone else's performance.

[sherri_chickie]

I would like to see what would happen to society if everyone decided not to be a teacher.. if you can read this post.. thank a teacher.

Frankly there are some horrible teachers, I had a couple, but most teachers are very hard working, most I know have had jobs outside of education. We are held accountable, what do you think the whole standardized testing and no child left behind act are? We have evaluations of our lessons done every year, often several times a year, we can be put on growth plans and fired if we don't improve. When I taught in Texas the entire 3rd grade team was told that they would be fired if the students did not pass the test, is there not pressure to perform there? And what about parents accountability? I am in a room with 24 kids I have to teach to all abilities, disabilities and interests, the least a parent could do is read to their child and night and help them with homework. ( I don't really believe in homework) There is no accountability for parents.

[Smittie61984]

I think you have repressed your molestation.

And I can make a claim that you often showing your breasts are from your daddy molesting you and that you constantly crave attention (from your male peers). By the way, that is a sign of molestation and sexual abuse (ask your local stripper or prostitute). Fun stuff!

Anyways, back in adult world, I understand the system is flawed. Standardized testing is a major contributer to it. Instead of actually learning how to think, we learn how to test which produces idiot students. It's clear in my anatomy and physiology class where they actually test your ability to in a sense, connect the dots. You just can't remember shit; you have to know how it works and why. It's why we had a class of 64 go down to 29 with me and a few others the only ones passing (the older ones are the only ones passing). The younger people fresh out of high school couldn't get past basic memorization and failed horrible at the tests.

There are a lot of other problems with schools (starting with the word GOVERNMENT), but everytime the subject comes up and they ask the teachers who are on the front lines what needs to be done, what do they say needs to happen? Do they mention having school vouchers where parents can send their kids to performing schools? No, not a chance in hell. That would mean the teachers (and school) would have to compete for your money just like in the private sector.

Another big improvement would be having the teachers stand up to the administrators and say "get these undisciplined kids out of our classrooms or we all quit". But nope the only universal agreement that teachers can have is WE WANT MORE MONEY to fix the fucked up system.

[Apoc]

And I can make a claim that you often showing your breasts are from your daddy molesting you and that you constantly crave attention (from your male peers). By the way, that is a sign of molestation and sexual abuse (ask your local stripper or prostitute). Fun stuff!

Anyways, back in adult world, I understand the system is flawed. Standardized testing is a major contributer to it. Instead of actually learning how to think, we learn how to test which produces idiot students. It's clear in my anatomy and physiology class where they actually test your ability to in a sense, connect the dots. You just can't remember shit; you have to know how it works and why. It's why we had a class of 64 go down to 29 with me and a few others the only ones passing (the older ones are the only ones passing). The younger people fresh out of high school couldn't get past basic memorization and failed horrible at the tests.

There are a lot of other problems with schools (starting with the word GOVERNMENT), but everytime the subject comes up and they ask the teachers who are on the front lines what needs to be done, what do they say needs to happen? Do they mention having school vouchers where parents can send their kids to performing schools? No, not a chance in hell. That would mean the teachers (and school) would have to compete for your money just like in the private sector.

Another big improvement would be having the teachers stand up to the administrators and say "get these undisciplined kids out of our classrooms or we all quit". But nope the only universal agreement that teachers can have is WE WANT MORE MONEY to fix the fucked up system.

Funny, i've never heard a teacher say, "pay me more, and the kids will learn more", just a lot of "pay me more, because at 34000$ a year, this really isnt worth the bullshit". Up here, teachers are leaving the profession left and right, and its not because of money, its because of the expectations placed on them by parents and school officials, while those two entities refuse to do their part and help out.

If you cant make sure/care enough to see your kids are getting the help they need, you should hang yourself, not blame the teachers.

I hear it a lot around here. "Oh, johnny isnt doing good because the teachers at the highschool dont like him"

No, not quite. Johnny isnt doing well because he's a drug addict, and never had what normal people would call parents, who cared enough about his education to make sure sure he was actually making an effort to get one.

The problem isnt teachers, its that they have to pick up the slack that parents and schoolboards arent.

Im sorry your too young and naive to understand anything but your own fucked up logic.

[askmrjesus]

Im sorry your too young and naive to understand anything but your own fucked up logic.

It's not his fault.

The school system failed him.

JC

[Papa_Complex]

Im sorry your too young and naive to understand anything but your own fucked up logic.

Young people think that they know everything. Us old fucks know we do :lol:

[azoomm]

It's not his fault.

The school system failed him.

JC

:lol: I was thinking the same thing. Though, I think the problem is somewhere in the middle between the two arguments. It could be said that anyone going into this profession "for the money" would be a little off-kilter. But, it's certainly fair to want to have a fair wage for a fair job done. And, of COURSE parents should be doing more... welcome to the planet, this your first day?

[tommymac]

It's not his fault.

The school system failed him.

JC

Wait I thought it waqs because he was molested, now I am all confused :lol:

[Papa_Complex]

Wait I thought it waqs because he was molested, now I am all confused :lol:

Molested by a teacher?

[Smittie61984]

Funny, i've never heard a teacher say, "pay me more, and the kids will learn more", just a lot of "pay me more, because at 34000$

Im sorry your too young and naive to understand anything but your own fucked up logic.

Did you read the OP's article or did you go to school in Rhode Island? $34k is pretty good pay for something like teaching where you have great benefits, easy hours, summers off (don't hand me this "I really dont' have summer off" bullshit because many teachers I know brag about summers off), the possibility of not needing knowledge above a 5th grader, and oh yeah, no great liability because you are union backed which is why you can't even get fired for putting a hit out on a student (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/21631567/detail.html). We want to blame the higher ups, just like I'm sure you do at your job (it's not my fault, it's my boss' fault. No way I'm just a fuck up), when often times the blame can be laid on ourselves.

I just love that last argument. By that logic we should just go find the oldest person in the world and name them Ruler of the Universe since it's obvious there is a correlation between age and knowing everything.

[Apoc]

34k is a good starting pay? Its fucking shit. They deserve 50k to start out, at least. Fuck sakes, im on workers comp, and I make 34k a year with many of my bills paid by insurance, and it still isnt that much!

I dont know what world you live in, but i'll be fucked if any teacher should work for 34k/year. Thats 650/week, BEFORE taxes!! After rent/utilities, car and insurance, food, and student loans, what the fuck are you supposed to do? Become a fucking hermit so you can be stressed out at work all fucking day?

Where I work (go back next month), I make 65K before overtime (averaged about 75 the two years before last year), with 0 post secondary education, and full benefits. And its in no way harder than dealing with 30kids for 8 hours a day, and their shitty ass schoolboard. And im still far from fucking loaded!

So no, 34k is nothing. Its not a good starting pay, its a not a good anything. Unless your content living with almost nothing, after working through university with 60k in loans.

[Apoc]

I just love that last argument. By that logic we should just go find the oldest person in the world and name them Ruler of the Universe since it's obvious there is a correlation between age and knowing everything.

Oh, and that wasnt an arguement, it was a statement. Your young, and while your not stupid, you dont have a fucking clue what your talking about. Teaching is not easy, not in the least. If your too ignorant to know that, its your problem, not ours.

Theres more to it than 8 hours at school. Teaching is a 24/7 job, with no overtime pay, asshole bosses, and idiot parents to deal with.

[Smittie61984]

Oh, and that wasnt an arguement, it was a statement. Your young, and while your not stupid, you dont have a fucking clue what your talking about. Teaching is not easy, not in the least. If your too ignorant to know that, its your problem, not ours.

Theres more to it than 8 hours at school. Teaching is a 24/7 job, with no overtime pay, asshole bosses, and idiot parents to deal with.

24/7 job? So they're on call like a doctor? "Shit I'm getting paged by jimmy who needs help with his pre-algebra at 3am. Gotta go in". Which reminds me, residents I believe only get in the mid 30s starting out and even after becoming a doctor I don't believe their pay is much above 80k which is crap considering the years of school and training and the fact they got a real Ph.D in something other than "public administrative" or sociology. Plus their school debts are 10x worse than a teachers out of western bumble fuck community college.

My mother is a teacher's aid and my cousin's husband is a teacher. So yes, I have a clue what I'm talking about. I've seen the work, I know the hours, and see the pay. Also a teacher with a masters will get more than 34k because they have a masters. I was using 34k in reference to Georgia. I saw in other more expensive places to live like New York the starting pay was much higher. 34k in Georgia is probably like making $50k in NYC.

[Apoc]

Plus their school debts are 10x worse than a teachers out of western bumble fuck community college.
.

Funny, up here at least, when you finish med school, and sign a contract with a hospital, that hospital pays off their student loans. At least thats what a guy I went to HS told me, who is now an orthopedic surgeon. And I believe my friend paula had the same deal, even though she had very little debt.

Oh, and her contract signing bonus was big enough for her to build a home.


I dunno what 34k is in goergia, but I live in bumfuck nowhere, and 34k is nothing.

[goof2]

I dunno what 34k is in goergia, but I live in bumfuck nowhere, and 34k is nothing.

The median household income in America is right at $52k. It isn't great, but $34k isn't terrible for someone just starting their career, especially when the amount of time school is out of session is factored in.

[Apoc]

The median household income in America is right at $52k. It isn't great, but $34k isn't terrible for someone just starting their career, especially when the amount of time school is out of session is factored in.
with vacation, stardays, floaters, and banked time, I still end up with 6 weeks off per year, and I make double that. I wouldnt wanna try to raise a family on my wages alone. I mean, I have fairly expensive taste for toys, but if im going to work everyday, I deserve to be able to have more than necessities, and so does a teacher. 50k is an acceptable wage for what they do.

[azoomm]

Here's the problem. The problem is, the PUBLIC is responsible for the budgets set forth in public schools. Here in Texas, we don't have a state income tax. That means, property taxes pay for public schools. If they want to give more to those in the public sector, that means higher taxes. When was they last time you heard people saying 'HELLS YEAH, I WANT TO PAY HIGHER TAXES!!'

It's a position that people should be more passionate about. I know people here that complain they are never planning on having children, and for that reason they shouldn't have to pay for schools...

It is truly one of those circles. Can't pay them more unless more people want to pay more...

[Homeslice]

I'm one of those benefits peoples you mentioned, 8 years left until i start leeching off the system :lol

My dad also is a vol firefighter, he gets all kinds of tax breaks, any costs that he can associate with the fire company is a tax write off, plus they are going to give him a $500/month retirement if he does 20 years volunteer service with them, it kicks in at 65, and he gets an extra $100/month for every 5 years he does after his first 20.

$500/mo? What is that going to pay for, his cell and cable bill?

[Homeslice]

And I'm not sure how many teachers are union, but I'm betting it's a minority. They can get fired easily, for petty political reasons.

[Apoc]

Zoomie, those people with no kids who complain, need to realize that someone else paid their education for them too.

[Apoc]

$500/mo? What is that going to pay for, his cell and cable bill?

umm.. on top of a pension from a real job, an extra 500$/month is a nice bonus. Its not like volunteers have to be there everyday for 12 hours.

Its over half the payment of a Camaro, and thats a nice retirement gift to yourself. I dont imagine he plans on living on 500/month when he retires.

[azoomm]

Zoomie, those people with no kids who complain, need to realize that someone else paid their education for them too.

Oh, I know that. No one WANTS an uneducated society. But, no one really wants to pay for it. Hell, people don't WANT To pay for their own children :lol:

I feel for teachers. But, it really is much like any other profession - those that give a shit and put in extra time and attention are better at their job, and are usually the ones that get chewed up and spit out by the "job."

[Particle Man]

And I'm not sure how many teachers are union, but I'm betting it's a minority. They can get fired easily, for petty political reasons.

NYS is mostly union..

[CrazyKell]

This is one of those threads where I can hardly formulate a response for the incredible amount of fail by one poster. Seriously, all joking aside, his attitude and propensity for residing in left field actually scares me.

When I was a teacher, it almost consumed me, and I worked hard to create a balance. I was at school from 7am-6pm every day. I spent most Sundays either planning or marking. When I had to learn a new song for a class, I spent countless hours practicing it and learning to play. When there was a school production, all the teachers chipped in to build sets, run acting classes, etc.

I worked an average of 60 hour weeks (at school) and probably about another 10 or so outside of school. So yes, I had time off, but I when I was working I worked 70 hours a week. :idk: Oh...and all of this was for 40,000 a year BEFORE taxes.

Edit: I should add that I'm not whining or complaining about this. I just find it really hard to believe that someone is judging an entire profession based on a few bad apples. I'm well educated and worked my ass off to do the very best I could do in my chosen profession. It's just astounding that someone would be so negative about it. :scratch:

[Smittie61984]

This is one of those threads where I can hardly formulate a response for the incredible amount of fail by one poster. Seriously, all joking aside, his attitude and propensity for residing in left field actually scares me.

When I was a teacher, it almost consumed me, and I worked hard to create a balance. I was at school from 7am-6pm every day. I spent most Sundays either planning or marking. When I had to learn a new song for a class, I spent countless hours practicing it and learning to play. When there was a school production, all the teachers chipped in to build sets, run acting classes, etc.

I worked an average of 60 hour weeks (at school) and probably about another 10 or so outside of school. So yes, I had time off, but I when I was working I worked 70 hours a week. :idk: Oh...and all of this was for 40,000 a year BEFORE taxes.

Edit: I should add that I'm not whining or complaining about this. I just find it really hard to believe that someone is judging an entire profession based on a few bad apples. I'm well educated and worked my ass off to do the very best I could do in my chosen profession. It's just astounding that someone would be so negative about it. :scratch:

Yet you hurl personal insults like a child. I know they say when you teach you learn but I didn't think it was from the kids.

Do you think that other people in other professions don't work hard hours like that? Your average CEO and even doctors would dream of a 60-70 hour work week. How many people do you think come home and just forget their work until they clock in the next day? How many people travel for weeks on end for projects outside of their area. When I moved pool tables one thing I noticed is just about every house had an office. Why have an office if you "just go home" unlike teachers.

Our school systems are failing miserably and America is the laughingstock of the other countries when it comes to education. Oddly enough our colleges are top notch which draws students from around the world. College teachers are not paid much better than public school teachers (and they HAVE to have much greater knowledge than a simple education degree). They still aren't paid as good as some Union monkey at a GM assemly plant but that's another subject.

I'd be more open to teachers getting better pay IF they can turn the education system around. You don't do it by demanding more money, you do it through hard work and working with the people above you for realistic solutoins. After that, then you demand more money and rightfully so.

[goof2]

with vacation, stardays, floaters, and banked time, I still end up with 6 weeks off per year, and I make double that. I wouldnt wanna try to raise a family on my wages alone. I mean, I have fairly expensive taste for toys, but if im going to work everyday, I deserve to be able to have more than necessities, and so does a teacher. 50k is an acceptable wage for what they do.

What does "deserve" have to do with it? Teachers are paid what the market will bear. With pay where it is there are already more teachers than teaching positions. Teachers unions are supposed to be working to increase teachers' pay but appear to be completely incompetent. As long as teachers work for the pay they currently receive that pay isn't going to significantly increase.

[Homeslice]

umm.. on top of a pension from a real job, an extra 500$/month is a nice bonus. Its not like volunteers have to be there everyday for 12 hours.

Its over half the payment of a Camaro, and thats a nice retirement gift to yourself. I dont imagine he plans on living on 500/month when he retires.

True, but being a volunteer firefighter is a pretty substantial commitment, with many qualifications/standards to meet. I'd have expected more than $500/mo after doing that for 20 years.

[CrazyKell]

Yet you hurl personal insults like a child. I know they say when you teach you learn but I didn't think it was from the kids.

Do you think that other people in other professions don't work hard hours like that? Your average CEO and even doctors would dream of a 60-70 hour work week. How many people do you think come home and just forget their work until they clock in the next day? How many people travel for weeks on end for projects outside of their area. When I moved pool tables one thing I noticed is just about every house had an office. Why have an office if you "just go home" unlike teachers.

Our school systems are failing miserably and America is the laughingstock of the other countries when it comes to education. Oddly enough our colleges are top notch which draws students from around the world. College teachers are not paid much better than public school teachers (and they HAVE to have much greater knowledge than a simple education degree). They still aren't paid as good as some Union monkey at a GM assemly plant but that's another subject.

I'd be more open to teachers getting better pay IF they can turn the education system around. You don't do it by demanding more money, you do it through hard work and working with the people above you for realistic solutoins. After that, then you demand more money and rightfully so.


I'm not claiming other professions don't work hard or only work 40 hours a week so stop putting words in my mouth.

Actually, nevermind. This is not a discussion or debate with you...it's a pissing match where you are so blatantly misled by the actions of a few to determine the hearts of many that it's not worth it.

But like goof said, teachers are paid what the market "bears" so to speak. No one gets into teaching thinking they're going to make it rich.

Oh and call ONE of my degrees a simple degree again and.....goddamnit I almost got caught on that one. I can't win a pissing match with you....you've got the advantage of a hose to aim your fire. :lol

[EpyonXero]

Blame the government

[Tmall]

I'm not claiming other professions don't work hard or only work 40 hours a week so stop putting words in my mouth.

Actually, nevermind. This is not a discussion or debate with you...it's a pissing match where you are so blatantly misled by the actions of a few to determine the hearts of many that it's not worth it.

But like goof said, teachers are paid what the market "bears" so to speak. No one gets into teaching thinking they're going to make it rich.

Oh and call ONE of my degrees a simple degree again and.....goddamnit I almost got caught on that one. I can't win a pissing match with you....you've got the advantage of a hose to aim your fire. :lol

No worries, if it were really as easy as he claims, he'd be doing it instead of what he does for a living.

He's also the kind of guy who will say, "You'd better not raise my taxes" and when questioned about his tax rate, he lets slip that he doesn't actually pay anything into the system.. Go figure.

[Papa_Complex]

Yet you hurl personal insults like a child. I know they say when you teach you learn but I didn't think it was from the kids.

Do you think that other people in other professions don't work hard hours like that? Your average CEO and even doctors would dream of a 60-70 hour work week. How many people do you think come home and just forget their work until they clock in the next day? How many people travel for weeks on end for projects outside of their area. When I moved pool tables one thing I noticed is just about every house had an office. Why have an office if you "just go home" unlike teachers.

Our school systems are failing miserably and America is the laughingstock of the other countries when it comes to education. Oddly enough our colleges are top notch which draws students from around the world. College teachers are not paid much better than public school teachers (and they HAVE to have much greater knowledge than a simple education degree). They still aren't paid as good as some Union monkey at a GM assemly plant but that's another subject.

I'd be more open to teachers getting better pay IF they can turn the education system around. You don't do it by demanding more money, you do it through hard work and working with the people above you for realistic solutoins. After that, then you demand more money and rightfully so.

Odd that you picked two of the most "out there" professional positions to compare to. CEOs get insane levels of compensation, and so should be expected to work long hours. In many cases thought that "work" involves spending time at a resort for meetings, or attending social functions. CEO compensation could be said to be a driving force behind the recent financial meltdown.

The hours that an intern puts in are stupidly long, for little effective compensation. This is considers a paying of dues in order to get into the profession, after which they receive relatively high levels of compensation. There have been a rather large number of articles written, over the years, suggesting that the method of internship should be changed because it results in far to many medical mistakes, even deaths, because the interns are operating on little or no sleep for extended periods.

If you're doing work that you aren't compensated for then that's your issue. I've been there, myself, putting in several thousand dollars worth of uncompensated overtime while setting up for a government project because I was "management." That was my problem and I took corrective steps, when it all came down.

[pauldun170]

What does "deserve" have to do with it? Teachers are paid what the market will bear. With pay where it is there are already more teachers than teaching positions. Teachers unions are supposed to be working to increase teachers' pay but appear to be completely incompetent. As long as teachers work for the pay they currently receive that pay isn't going to significantly increase.


Good post.
Applicable for just about every job (though the union part may not apply for all)

[Smittie61984]

I'm not claiming other professions don't work hard or only work 40 hours a week so stop putting words in my mouth.

But like goof said, teachers are paid what the market "bears" so to speak. No one gets into teaching thinking they're going to make it rich.

Oh and call ONE of my degrees a simple degree again and.....goddamnit I almost got caught on that one. I can't win a pissing match with you....you've got the advantage of a hose to aim your fire. :lol

Words in your mouth? The main argument you made about why teachers need more pay is that they "Work a bagillion hours a week" despite they get paid for 40. Newsflash, so does everyone else who is paid salary.

Teachers remind me of the models you see in exotic destinations bitching about how "hard" it is being a model. The truth is many teahcers have no concept of hard, mainly becuase they've gone to school their entire life and are essentially going back to school for the rest of their life. The fact they they have some responsibility makes them think they have it hard. Also, if it is so fucking hard and the pay sucks so much then why is their an overabundance of teachers? I don't believe there is an overabundance of mechanical engineers and I think they average about 50k (and they have a REAL degree) which is also close to a teacher's average pay.

You do have an education degree don't you? No suprise.

[shmike]

Go Smittie! :lol:

We had a similar discussion on a local board a while back.

I am going to share some thoughts from a local mechanic-turned-teacher:

I turned wrenches for 15 years and just recently started teaching. And with all these pitfalls, it beats the shit out of actually working for a living My biggest gripe is the attitudes of some of these students. I was amazed at how many students go to school everyday and don't do ANYTHING and fail every single one of their classes Why the fuck go to school if you are going to fail just go get your GED or get a job. :wtfru:


I gotta back **** up on this one. Being a mechanic for so many years, you definitely have to put in your time. When I went to work at the school that I am at, I was somewhat appauled at attitudes of some of the teachers.

Granted, the kids can get on your nerves, and the faculty doesn't back you up, but, come on I've been working my ass off for years trying to earn a decent pay check. Now I have a job where I just have be able to relay my knowledge unto a bunch of students, get weekends off (a rarity in dealerships today), spring break, summer off PAID, Christmas and New Years, and ALL the holidays off. SHIT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS...and if I put in a little extra effort, that's because I want to know that I am doing a good job.


Pardon me know while I get back to last day of a LONG summer of drinking before I go back to work tommorrow.

[CrazyKell]

Words in your mouth? The main argument you made about why teachers need more pay is that they "Work a bagillion hours a week" despite they get paid for 40. Newsflash, so does everyone else who is paid salary.

Teachers remind me of the models you see in exotic destinations bitching about how "hard" it is being a model. The truth is many teahcers have no concept of hard, mainly becuase they've gone to school their entire life and are essentially going back to school for the rest of their life. The fact they they have some responsibility makes them think they have it hard. Also, if it is so fucking hard and the pay sucks so much then why is their an overabundance of teachers? I don't believe there is an overabundance of mechanical engineers and I think they average about 50k (and they have a REAL degree) which is also close to a teacher's average pay.

You do have an education degree don't you? No suprise.

For what it's worth to you, I have an
Undergraduate degree in something
Completely unrelated to teaching.
Knowing that I wanted to teach, I went back to school for my M Ed. :shrug:

You seem to think I made a bunch of arguments, I just refuted yours.
Others have made the arguments, both for and against.
Unsurprisingly, you are young and lack any glimmer of the real world.

:dthumb:

[pauldun170]

learnin iz hard
teachin iz weak
man jobz harderz than lady jobz
teachin iz lady jobs
if no callouses...iz lady job

educatin overrated...they make you takes classes you don't use on the job so dey useless.

i have no point to post
i looking for threads to post in and this one has stuff bout stuff so i post.

[sherri_chickie]

My sister is on salary and she gets time in lieu.. she works overtime she gets to take time off for it.. I guess in a way as teachers we do too, i.e summer vacation. My husband is a pilot and he has a tonne more time off work than I do. I don't think anyone was saying that only teaching is difficult, but we do take exception when people don't recognize how hard of a job it is. When people run around saying our job is easy I want to ask them if they would like to switch for a week. To me an office job looks easy. ( not saying that it is, just that it LOOKS easy, from the outside)

[Kaneman]

. To me an office job looks easy. ( not saying that it is, just that it LOOKS easy, from the outside)

It is. Extremely easy.

[CrazyKell]

/me wonders what Smittie does "for a living". :scratch:

[Kaneman]

/me wonders what Smittie does "for a living". :scratch:

Builds skyscrapers. With his bare fucking hands.

Dude doesn't even need a hammer.

[Papa_Complex]

Builds skyscrapers. With his bare fucking hands.

Dude doesn't even need a hammer.

Does he have a blue ox too? Dude doesn't mean shit if he doesn't have a blue ox.

[Apoc]

/me wonders what Smittie does "for a living". :scratch:

Im guessing either Welfare, or he collects weekly checks from mom and dad.

[tommymac]

Builds skyscrapers. With his bare fucking hands.

Dude doesn't even need a hammer.

man chuck norris cant even do that :lol:

[Apoc]

man chuck norris cant even do that :lol:

Chuck doesn't build things, he destroys them!!!!

And if he did build something, it would only be so he'd have a challenge destroying it!

[askmrjesus]

Im guessing either Welfare, or he collects weekly checks from mom and dad.

If I recall correctly, Smittie is a professional stop sign holder, on a road construction crew.

JC

[shmike]

It's funny to see the pile-on.

I find it ironic coming from the lumberjack crew. :lol:

[Apoc]

Oh ya, we got some lumberjacks here, do we?

[Trip]

And this is why I am sending my kid to private schools if I can afford it. The public schools are going to hell in a hand basket.

[Homeslice]

By Wayne Drash, CNN

Central Falls, Rhode Island (CNN) -- Superintendent Frances Gallo combed the classrooms of embattled Central Falls High School. Teachers and students were gone for the day. Gallo was hunting for a particular item: an effigy of President Obama.

She hoped the rumor of its existence wasn't true.

Gallo had fired all the high school teachers just a month earlier, igniting an educational maelstrom in Rhode Island's smallest and poorest community while winning praise from the president.

The teachers union lampooned her; hate mail flooded her inbox. For weeks, she'd prayed every morning for the soul of the man who wrote: "I wish cancer on your children and their children and that you live long enough to see them die."

It was one thing to take barbs from opponents -- another thing altogether if the division was infecting classrooms. Teachers assured the superintendent that the school battle wasn't seeping into lesson plans. So, when CNN asked her about the rumor of the effigy, Gallo took it upon herself to get to the bottom of it.

She entered the school in the dark of night Monday. She started her room-to-room sweep on the first floor. The first was clean, then the next and the next.

Yet newspaper headlines about the controversy, Gallo says, were plastered nearly everywhere.What are the teachers doing? she thought.

Most were local papers with banner headlines: "Teachers fired." Others highlighted Obama's support of Gallo, an endorsement that turned an already tense situation into a firestorm.

In this Democratic stronghold, teachers wondered: How could the president they supported turn his back on them? Some peeled Obama bumper stickers off their cars.

Gallo knew Obama's endorsement would create further uproar. She just didn't know how bad it would get.

She continued making her way through the school, clearing the first two floors. She was disheartened by the newspaper postings but relieved she hadn't found the offensive item.

One floor to go.

She climbed the steps and entered a classroom.

There it was.

"You couldn't miss it."

An Obama doll, about a foot tall, hung by its feet from the white board; the doll held a sign that said, "Fire Central Falls teachers," she says.

Recounting her discovery later, Gallo broke down in tears. A flood of emotions poured out, the raw toll of all that has transpired in recent weeks.

When she confronted the teacher responsible, she says he responded that it was "a joke to him."

The teachers, she says, have "no idea the harm they're doing." She thought of Obama's words: Students get only one shot at an education.

"I've tried to explain this over and over again: The children here are very disturbed by the actions of their teachers, and they're torn apart because they also love them."

It's lonely being a voice for change.

'Miracles Happen Everyday'

Central Falls is a town of more than 18,000 people -- most of them Hispanic immigrants -- living within 1.5 square miles. "Ripley's Believe It Or Not" once dubbed the town, about 10 minutes from Providence, the most densely populated in the nation.

The school is an ornate brick building with decorative columns. A housing project backs up to the campus. A marquee outside the school reads: "Daily reflection on your efforts and outcomes will improve both."

Just a few blocks away, Gallo works from a modest building that looks as if it were once a home. A wall in the superintendent's office is decorated with Central Falls High T-shirts. "Don't talk trash ... recycle it," one says.

Above her door is a sign: "Miracles Happen Everyday." It keeps her grounded, she says, reminding her that "my kids are going to learn."

Gallo arrived in Central Falls in 2007, knowing a tough job loomed ahead. The school had already been designated one of the lowest-performing in Rhode Island.

"I have never once looked away from a challenge or put children second," she says.

The school has been failing for the last seven years. Its graduation rate stands around 48 percent. Math proficiency is a paltry 7 percent. Reading scores have improved by 21 percentage points in the last two years, but still lag far behind with 55 percent able to read at grade level, according to school officials.

Like the town's population, most of the 800 students at Central Falls are Hispanic. For many, English is a second language. Teachers say the population is so transient, the statistics are skewed: Dozens of students enroll as freshmen but move before their senior year. Those students get counted in the low graduation rate.

It's a difficult environment in which to teach, teachers say, and they do their best. Gallo says union contracts, or "scar tissue," are so thick and dense that instituting reform is difficult.

Gallo says she didn't want to take the drastic measure of firing all 93 teachers, support staff and administrators. Yet her decision to do so instantly made her one of the boldest school administrators in the nation -- loathed and loved, reviled and applauded.

"I never anticipated this. Never," Gallo says.

On the wall behind her desk is a framed quotation: "Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, 'I will try again tomorrow.' "

How the fight brewed

Maybe it's her grandma looks -- gray hair, rimmed glasses, soft-spoken voice. Whatever the reason, it seems the teachers union underestimated this superintendent.

A lifelong Rhode Islander, Gallo began her career in education 38 years ago, first as a teacher before moving into school administration as a principal in 1984.

On tough days, she wears an eagle broach. A child at her first school gave it to her as a reminder that "eagles fly high and soar on the thermals."

She's been wearing it a lot lately.

The raw-knuckled fight playing out here intensified in January when Rhode Island became the first state seeking an injection of federal funds to transform low-performing schools.

Rhode Island's education commissioner identified six schools, including Central Falls High, as the worst in the state. The troubled schools stood to gain $12.4 million -- including a one-time payment of $10.5 million from federal stimulus funds. The state decides how to allocate the funds.

The deadline to apply was February 22. Administrators scrambled. To qualify for the money under strict federal guidelines, the schools had four options:

• Close altogether

• Restart as a charter school or under a new management organization

• Undergo a "transformation" model in which the principal is replaced and all aspects of the school's performance are evaluated

• Take a more drastic "turnaround" approach, in which all staff are fired with the possibility that up to 50 percent can be rehired.

In Central Falls, Gallo ruled out the first two choices. She initially sought the transformation model, and the union agreed in principle.

Gallo laid out her tools of transformation: Teachers would work a longer school day of seven hours and tutor students weekly for one hour outside school time. They would have lunch with students often, meet for 90 minutes every week to discuss education and set aside two weeks during summer break for paid professional development.

For some of the extra work, Gallo would pay $30 an hour from the federal grant. The teachers union pushed for more: $90 an hour. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Talks broke down. Gallo turned to the nuclear option.

"Central Falls is a test case for the rest of the United States. I don't think anyone was prepared for this kind of fallout," said Marcia Reback, president of the Rhode Island Federation of Teachers.

She puts the blame solely on the "take it or leave it" attitude of the superintendent. She says that the union was never allowed to offer any alternatives to transform the school and that teachers want school programs revamped.

Before the union knew it, the superintendent recommended the firing of all teachers. The recommendation was affirmed 5-2 by the school board. By February 23, termination notices had gone out.

"I felt I had no choice," Gallo says. "And I continue to believe that is the right decision."

The firings go into effect in June. No more than 50 percent of the current staff can be rehired. Teachers will learn their fate in late May.

Anxiety and supercharged tensions ripple through this small town. How could they not? Educators' livelihoods are at stake.

The union is seeking a return to the bargaining table. Reback suggested the only way for Obama to save face is to help bring all parties together in a mediated settlement.

Even as the president applauded Central Falls' reform, he conceded that firing teachers is the least preferred measure. "Replacing school staff should only be done as a last resort," he said at an education event on March 1.

"But if a school continues to fail its students year after year, if it doesn't show signs of improvement, then there's got to be a sense of accountability," Obama said. "And that's what happened in Rhode Island."

Says Reback: "The president was badly briefed."

The Warrior students

Students continue to attend class in this heated environment. Reback says that a toxic atmosphere doesn't exist -- that the teachers are professionals who stick to their lesson plans.

The union chief also has received hate mail. Reback says her favorite was plain and simple: "You suck."

About 70 graduates recently descended on the campus. They blasted Obama for supporting the superintendent and heaped praise on their teachers for influencing their lives.

Away from the scene, current students described an emotionally charged atmosphere. They care deeply about their teachers and don't understand why everyone was fired. Some teachers, they say, have blamed the students in class by asking why the teens didn't study more. Other teachers have moved forward, saying the whole thing is above their heads, according to students.

"I think it's the teachers' fault and the students' fault. It's the teachers' fault for giving up on us, but it's also the students' fault for not trying," said one student, whom CNN is not naming because of the possibility of retribution. "A teacher can't make a student study."

The students are aware that their school has become a national pariah, and they don't like it. Their mascot is the Warrior, a symbol for those braving the chaos.

They also want to help shape the new school. They say their input has been neglected in the fracas. It's an idea Gallo welcomes.

Gallo has played all the roles in her life: student, teacher, principal and parent. Her three children have grown up to be teachers themselves. One faces an uncertain job future in Massachusetts, where a similar battle is under way.

Years ago, when her two sons played football, Gallo couldn't bear the insults hurled by the crowd at the players. So she joined the officiating crew. Her job was to help move the first down chains. It was a way to escape the nastiness in the stands and serve a positive role while watching her team move toward its goal.

Now, she's the target of the nasty comments. The pressure to succeed has grown exponentially since she decided to fire staff.

"It's been an amazing life since that moment," she says.

The game has changed. She's front and center. Will she be able to move the chains forward?

[goof2]

The teachers union pushed for more: $90 an hour. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This isn't new, it was mentioned numerous times in the discussion with another article being posted stating the same. Unfortunately by that time the discussion had moved to one about teachers in general and they are motivated by money. To paraphrase what I said back then; I normally don't support arbitrary decisions like this but the teachers decided to stand as one and let their union dig their own grave with an unreasonable demand. Tough shit for them.

This article did read like it was written by the Superintendent's son or something. The author couldn't have been more in the tank for Gallo if she was paying him $90/hr.

[Apoc]

I hope the teachers sue and get far more than the 90$/hr.

Its one thing to fire certain teachers, saying they arent doing their job. But it just isnt possible that EVERY teacher in the school isnt putting in the effort.

I hope a class action lawsuit makes all the teachers rich.

[shmike]

I hope the teachers sue and get far more than the 90$/hr.

Its one thing to fire certain teachers, saying they arent doing their job. But it just isnt possible that EVERY teacher in the school isnt putting in the effort.

I hope a class action lawsuit makes all the teachers rich.

Reading isn't your strong suit is it? :?:

[goof2]

I hope the teachers sue and get far more than the 90$/hr.

Its one thing to fire certain teachers, saying they arent doing their job. But it just isnt possible that EVERY teacher in the school isnt putting in the effort.

I hope a class action lawsuit makes all the teachers rich.

Negotiate as individuals and expect to be dealt with in kind. Negotiate as a group and be dealt with as a group.

[Homeslice]

I normally don't support arbitrary decisions like this but the teachers decided to stand as one and let their union dig their own grave with an unreasonable demand. Tough shit for them.


That's fine, but how often would a rank-and-file union member stand up to his union leaders and recommend they lower their demands? Seems like he would be afraid of retaliation or at least social ostracization by his fellow union members.

[Apoc]

Reading isn't your strong suit is it? :?:



Oh, I know exactly what it says. Doesn't mean I have to agree with any of it. There is nothing legal about firing a whole school, over contract disputes. In the end, the one who did the firing will pay far more dearly than the ones fired.

Like I said, I hope they all become millionaires.

[Apoc]

Negotiate as individuals and expect to be dealt with in kind. Negotiate as a group and be dealt with as a group.

Well, here at least, you cant fire union members over contract disputes. Thats why we have arbitrators.

[shmike]

Oh, I know exactly what it says. Doesn't mean I have to agree with any of it. There is nothing legal about firing a whole school, over contract disputes. In the end, the one who did the firing will pay far more dearly than the ones fired.

Like I said, I hope they all become millionaires.

Dude, not only was it legal, it was practically mandated.

Rhode Island's education commissioner identified six schools, including Central Falls High, as the worst in the state. The troubled schools stood to gain $12.4 million -- including a one-time payment of $10.5 million from federal stimulus funds. The state decides how to allocate the funds.

The deadline to apply was February 22. Administrators scrambled. To qualify for the money under strict federal guidelines, the schools had four options:

• Close altogether

• Restart as a charter school or under a new management organization

• Undergo a "transformation" model in which the principal is replaced and all aspects of the school's performance are evaluated

• Take a more drastic "turnaround" approach, in which all staff are fired with the possibility that up to 50 percent can be rehired.

[goof2]

That's fine, but how often would a rank-and-file union member stand up to his union leaders and recommend they lower their demands? Seems like he would be afraid of retaliation or at least social ostracization by his fellow union members.

Again, tough shit. If they want the benefits of union membership they also get the downsides too. They thought they were negotiating from a position of strength by being united. They were wrong.

[Apoc]

Dude, not only was it legal, it was practically mandated.

Laws down there are fucked up. No way they'd get away with that shit up here.

Hell, our education minister started fucking with our schools here in NB, and he got so much backlash that he had to resign, and scrap all his ideas.

[goof2]

Well, here at least, you cant fire union members over contract disputes. Thats why we have arbitrators.

I think shmike covered it pretty effectively but this isn't a normal situation. When the government is the one writing the checks they tend to ignore their own rules too. I don't know if it changed or not but America's federal government didn't used to be subject to OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) or ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) regulations either. These teachers will be lucky to get another job. If they want to be millionaires they better start playing the lottery.:lol:

[Trip]

I don't know if it changed or not but America's federal government didn't used to be subject to OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) or ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) regulations either.

Uh, it must of been a long time ago, because I am a federal employee and we could nail our managers to the fucking wall and collect a big pay check from Uncle Sam if they tried to violate OSHA. Our safety requirements exceed OSHA on every level.

I personally know someone that has benefited from the ADA as well. They used it in their grievance case.

[goof2]

Uh, it must of been a long time ago, because I am a federal employee and we could nail our managers to the fucking wall and collect a big pay check from Uncle Sam if they tried to violate OSHA. Our safety requirements exceed OSHA on every level.

I personally know someone that has benefited from the ADA as well. They used it in their grievance case.

OSHA was not directly applicable as the United States was not considered an employer. The act establishing OSHA did task the heads of federal agencies with creating a program consistent with the national standards of OSHA. It looks like Carter tried to put a bit more force behind it with Executive Orders issued in 1980.