Speaking of the entitled generation.... [Archive]

Homeslice

03-26-2010, 02:20 AM

Not surprising....

Army changes basic training to deal with gamer generation
by Ben Silverman

In an interview with Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, NPR reports that the U.S. Army is altering its basic training program for the first time in 20 years, in part to better train recruits weaned on video games.

"This isn't a decline in our recruits; this is a decline in our American society in terms of their physical capacity," Hertling told NPR. "It's just a softer generation." :zowned:

Hertling goes on to explain that while new soliders are "advanced in terms of their use of technology," they're perhaps "not as advanced in their physical capabilities or ability to go into a fight. So we're taking that into consideration as well in doing this holistic review of how we do training."

So what's in store for new recruits? Hertling says the new basic training regimen will focus more on teaching recruits essential combat skills, from the use of "weapons, knives, bayonets, [and] sticks" to hand-to-hand techniques like punching, kicking, and martial arts. His aim is to better prepare them for the potentially grueling physical experience of serving in unfriendly environments.

That includes an added emphasis on discipline, which Hertling contends just isn't what it used to be. :zowned:

"We certainly have a generation that is not as disciplined when they enter the military," he said, adding that while the new generation has "what they believe is a form of courage or discipline, it's not what we expect of a soldier in very tense and difficult situations." :zowned:

The news comes just weeks after the Pentagon announced plans to fund new research into using games to train soldiers. The Army in particular has had a healthy working relationship with the games industry; its freely-distributed first-person shooter America's Army has enjoyed great success as a recruitment tool.

While Hertling isn’t enamored with their physical prowess, he believes new soldiers with a background in games do offer one distinct advantage.

"They're different. They have a technology edge. I think they're smarter than any generation we've ever had before," he said. "They certainly ask a lot more difficult questions."

Dave

03-26-2010, 02:24 AM

more pt and combatives aint a bad thing at all.

Adeptus_Minor

03-26-2010, 02:32 AM

I still think we need to go back to training with swords.

CrazyKell

03-26-2010, 08:55 AM

In reading that article, very little had to do with gaming specifically.

He's not wrong, it's just misleading.

Cutty72

03-26-2010, 09:04 AM

more pt and combatives aint a bad thing at all.

I agree.
And bring back wall to wall counseling, and get rid of "stress cards"

Amber Lamps

03-26-2010, 09:05 AM

In reading that article, very little had to do with gaming specifically.

He's not wrong, it's just misleading.

Well I'm not sure where the entitlement is... I'm not sure that people are necessarily softer either.I think that the people that they recruit now are hard, ghetto kids but the guys they want might be the softer, more intelligent suburban kids whom may be somewhat weaker.

Quick281

03-26-2010, 09:09 AM

Ignoring the owned signs, I didn't see much about entitlement.

smileyman

03-26-2010, 10:15 AM

Give me all the 18 to 25 yr olds you can. I will protect my old ass by letting them clear IEDs and act as human shields for my generation, who grew up hard and now are so broken down we can't get outta the way!

This was just sarcasm take it as such.

fatbuckRTO

03-26-2010, 11:26 AM

Well I'm not sure where the entitlement is... I'm not sure that people are necessarily softer either.I think that the people that they recruit now are hard, ghetto kids but the guys they want might be the softer, more intelligent suburban kids whom may be somewhat weaker.

The "ghetto kids" I've seen in the military are some of the whiniest bitches this side of the East Side. They may be good for recruiting numbers, but they count fuck-all for mission accomplishment. Most of the time they're a detriment.

That said, this new crop of suburbanite plush toys aren't much better, they just don't have mouths as big.

Homeslice

03-26-2010, 11:54 AM

In reading that article, very little had to do with gaming specifically.

He's not wrong, it's just misleading.

It's only misleading if you don't put 2 and 2 together. The more time someone spends indoors, surfing the web, IM'ing, and playing video games, then it's likely they're not spending as much time outdoors or at a gym, exercising.

Is it proof? No, but the fact that the people in this article have noticed a drop in recruit fitness seems to back that up.

You could say "well in the old days people watched a lot of TV", but they still do that in addition to all this other stuff. Plus, kids seem to prefer socializing thru the computer rather than in person anymore. They would rather IM someone than walk a quarter mile down the street to hang out with them.

Amber Lamps

03-26-2010, 12:02 PM

The "ghetto kids" I've seen in the military are some of the whiniest bitches this side of the East Side. They may be good for recruiting numbers, but they count fuck-all for mission accomplishment. Most of the time they're a detriment.

That said, this new crop of suburbanite plush toys aren't much better, they just don't have mouths as big.

Maybe, but I did training at Ft Bliss back in the 80s and comparatively, I don't see how the new guys are "softer"... I live by 3 different bases and do work for lots of military personnel and I wouldn't characterize them as "soft". Especially compared to the two decades of troops who never even saw a shot fired in anger.:idk:

Amber Lamps

03-26-2010, 12:04 PM

It's only misleading if you don't put 2 and 2 together. The more time someone spends indoors, surfing the web, IM'ing, and playing video games, then it's likely they're not spending as much time outdoors or at a gym, exercising.

Is it proof? No, but the fact that the people in this article have noticed a drop in recruit fitness seems to back that up.

But how does that make them "entitled"? A high percentage of people join the military for the GI bill or because that's their only option.:idk:

Homeslice

03-26-2010, 12:16 PM

But how does that make them "entitled"? A high percentage of people join the military for the GI bill or because that's their only option.:idk:

I threw that word in there because it was used in the generations thread last month.

Amber Lamps

03-26-2010, 12:18 PM

I threw that word in there because it was used in the generations thread last month.

Ah okay, fair enough! Most of the people that I ever served with or met were from middle class or below families.

derf

03-26-2010, 07:48 PM

Yeh, I do think that many new soldiers think they are entitled to something. I'm not sure what it is. As for basic training changing, yeh that happens, in fact it happens constantly, a few years back they added a whole week. Its just that somewhere in the bowels of the pentagon some dude named bob woke up one day and said:

"hey! basic training is adding more hand to hand combat stuff and getting rid of bayonetts! this is a change! the first change in 20 years! yay for positive news story that will be discussed on the internet in a motorcycle forum and possibly recruit some dude who doesn't want to be known as weak anymore and want hand to hand training!"

Seriously thats the way it works

Dave

03-26-2010, 08:18 PM

Amber Lamps

03-26-2010, 09:17 PM

pert much. Dont learn jack in basic anyway

I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved...learned that in basic training 1983.

smileyman

03-26-2010, 11:01 PM

Its not like they are all duds, plenty of high school athletes and farm boys enlist. then there is that obesity statistic to overcome...

SteveP

03-27-2010, 12:50 AM

I agree.
And bring back wall to wall counseling, and get rid of "stress cards"

We had those in boot camp in '97. No one dared to use them though.

Cutty72

03-27-2010, 11:06 AM

We had those in boot camp in '97. No one dared to use them though.

Really? where did you go? No stress cards at Leonard Wood in 00, and they defiantly still used wall to wall counseling.

Dave

03-27-2010, 01:35 PM

Really? where did you go? No stress cards at Leonard Wood in 00, and they defiantly still used wall to wall counseling.

it was a running joke at knox in 00' shoulda seen what happened to kids who asked for one :lmao:

Cutty72

03-27-2010, 03:44 PM

it was a running joke at knox in 00' shoulda seen what happened to kids who asked for one :lmao:

Yeah, friend of mine was there the same time I was in Leonard Wood. Funny cause Knox was still all male at that time, while LW had already become co-ed. no one even heard of "stress cards" in LW.

Archren

03-27-2010, 03:58 PM

Hell, I went to Jackson for basic in '01, and we didn't have stress cards.

I wish they'd made all these changes before I went to basic... some of that stuff sounds like fun. :lol:

Adeptus_Minor

03-27-2010, 08:18 PM

I was hoping at least Archren would second my vote for bringing back swords. :whistle:

SteveP

03-27-2010, 11:43 PM

Really? where did you go? No stress cards at Leonard Wood in 00, and they defiantly still used wall to wall counseling.

Navy. Great Lakes Illinois. Naval Boot Camp is a joke.

Dave

03-28-2010, 01:47 AM

I was hoping at least Archren would second my vote for bringing back swords. :whistle:

im totally down for swordplay. considering my build and ethnic background i'd need a claymore or a good bastard. ;)

Amber Lamps

03-28-2010, 02:11 AM

im totally down for swordplay. considering my build and ethnic background i'd need a claymore or a good bastard. ;)

I have a couple swords, I'll bring them to the rally and we'll have a good old fashioned sword fight...if you want.:wink:

Dave

03-28-2010, 01:32 PM

I have a couple swords, I'll bring them to the rally and we'll have a good old fashioned sword fight...if you want.:wink:

cant afford to go. plus im gonna end up taking my vacation from work to cover my AT since im doing a army school for my two week. hopefully next year works out better. just got a raise and the school should get me promoted in the guard, plus hitting the ten year mark this august. ought to be in better shape :lol:

i do have a replica of sode no shirayuki though ;)

Cutty72

03-28-2010, 01:36 PM

cant afford to go. plus im gonna end up taking my vacation from work to cover my AT since im doing a army school for my two week. hopefully next year works out better. just got a raise and the school should get me promoted in the guard, plus hitting the ten year mark this august. ought to be in better shape :lol:

i do have a replica of sode no shirayuki though ;)

You still required to do AT even after taking a school? Or do you just choose to because to make more $$$?
You shouldn't have to take vaca for either, unless you just like the extra cash. Legally, if you are on orders your employer can't fuck with you.

What school ya off to?

Dave

03-28-2010, 01:54 PM

You still required to do AT even after taking a school? Or do you just choose to because to make more $$$?
You shouldn't have to take vaca for either, unless you just like the extra cash. Legally, if you are on orders your employer can't fuck with you.

What school ya off to?

im taking vaca to double dip. and its WLC my army career has been on hold since like 04' time to take the next step :lol:

Archren

03-28-2010, 03:59 PM

I was hoping at least Archren would second my vote for bringing back swords. :whistle:

I just figured that was a given with me. :lol: I have a katana and a wakizashi... sure, they're somewhat sharp and pointy, but they're more decorative than useful in terms of real swordfighting.

im taking vaca to double dip. and its WLC my army career has been on hold since like 04' time to take the next step :lol:

Double-dipping ftw... too bad being on ADOS for the last two and a half years prior to mobilization basically nixed that for me. The only thing I had to look forward to was the travel pay. :lol: One of my soldiers is going to WLC right after we get back. I'm proud of him being gung-ho and wanting to knock it out, but damn, I don't know if I'd be ready to go to a school after just getting back from the desert like that. But then it's probably better to go while you're still in the swing of things than after a month of getting fat and happy on beer. :D

Cutty72

03-28-2010, 05:19 PM

Yeah, I should be back in the states by mid-may, and going to phase 3 and 4 of BNCOC in June.
I hope to get started at my tech job before I go to school, so I can use my mil leave and double dip as well.

derf

03-28-2010, 07:22 PM

Damn, now I'm thinking I'm real glad I got none of those schools left to go to. I finished ANCOC back in 04

Amber Lamps

03-28-2010, 10:03 PM

Damn, now I'm thinking I'm real glad I got none of those schools left to go to. I finished ANCOC back in 04

I only made it to PLDC...I was supposed to go to the next level but stuff happened...:lol:

derf

03-28-2010, 10:23 PM

I only made it to PLDC...I was supposed to go to the next level but stuff happened...:lol:

You woulda taken that shit to the next level

Dave

03-28-2010, 10:38 PM

swerd

Amber Lamps

03-29-2010, 12:07 AM

You woulda taken that shit to the next level

Probably, I was an acting squad leader at E-5 when all the rest were E-6s. Of course, I had to wait for stateside rotation to go to school so...:idk:

Dave

03-29-2010, 10:50 AM

Probably, I was an acting squad leader at E-5 when all the rest were E-6s. Of course, I had to wait for stateside rotation to go to school so...:idk:

sounds like my life. Im acting squad and atm i think im senior scout. Fookin scary

Cutty72

03-29-2010, 01:49 PM

sounds like my life. Im acting squad and atm i think im senior scout. Fookin scary

I've been in a squad leader position all but about 4 months since I got my 5's. It's retarded.

I hope BNCOC will be the second to last school I have to attend. The last being WOC school in a year or so. :dthumb:

Kaneman

03-29-2010, 05:47 PM

Question for current and former Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen:

If you're already in good shape, exercise regularly, lift weights, etc., would basic training be somewhat easy?

Tmall

03-29-2010, 06:31 PM

Smittie61984

03-29-2010, 06:56 PM

But how does that make them "entitled"? A high percentage of people join the military for the GI bill or because that's their only option.:idk:

I don't know about that. I think a lot of people join because they want to. Anyone who joined the military since 9/11 know what they're in for. You are likely going to see combat in a very dangerous part of the world and there are easier ways to pay for school vs getting shot at and possibly killed.

I think a lot of it is just old timer "back when I was... we had to carry rabid elephants on our backs while getting kicked in the balls by kangaroos". I'm sure if you take a civil war soldier and show them a WW2 soldier they'd just think they are pussies.

I've read reports and stories where the military find that games help make more affective soldiers because they are use to killing in games and when killing in the battlefield they adapt easier. I think one problem the military had was where soldiers would freeze up when faced with the decision of wether to kill another human being. An example is the military switching from circle targets to silloute targets in I think WW1. It made it more realistic.

Physical fitness can be fixed. From what I understand basic does a great job of that.

Archren

03-30-2010, 10:38 AM

Question for current and former Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen:

If you're already in good shape, exercise regularly, lift weights, etc., would basic training be somewhat easy?

In terms of the PT, yes. In terms of long hours, stress, etc., a little. You would be more prepared physically and mentally than Joe Blow off the street who has never seen the inside of a gym (like I was, since I was fresh out of HS and my PE credit was marching band :lol:). But it still wouldn't be "easy", per se. It's more of a mind game, really. The whole process of breaking you down to build you back up. Once you figure out the "game", as it were, it gets a hell of a lot easier.

But the kudos of being a PT stud probably would go a long way. :lol:

derf

03-30-2010, 03:41 PM

I've been in a squad leader position all but about 4 months since I got my 5's. It's retarded.

I hope BNCOC will be the second to last school I have to attend. The last being WOC school in a year or so. :dthumb:

You do realize that as a warrent you will have to through the OES system right? A CW3 in my unit jut graduated CGSC

Cutty72

03-30-2010, 04:41 PM

Question for current and former Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airmen:

If you're already in good shape, exercise regularly, lift weights, etc., would basic training be somewhat easy?

Easier, yes. Easy, no. You would have an advantage on the 6 miles runs and getting smoked at 2 am, but you still have to deal with the emotional/mental portion, and the sleep deprivation.

You do realize that as a warrent you will have to through the OES system right? A CW3 in my unit jut graduated CGSC

Yeah, I know. Guess I meant NCO courses. The OES courses are different, kinda. Though I guess they are trying to change how warrants do it now too.
Some CW must have gotten on the bad side of a full bird or something and they are changing it from warrants having their own schools to instead go to the regular officer courses. Complete and utter bullshit. Warrants have a completely different role in the Army.

derf

03-30-2010, 07:13 PM

Yeah, I know. Guess I meant NCO courses. The OES courses are different, kinda. Though I guess they are trying to change how warrants do it now too.
Some CW must have gotten on the bad side of a full bird or something and they are changing it from warrants having their own schools to instead go to the regular officer courses. Complete and utter bullshit. Warrants have a completely different role in the Army.

Warrents never had their own schools except for WOC, only in the last year or 2 have they been made to go to CCC, CGSC and ILE. And i dont know what you have seen, but I distinclty remember being treated much better in ANCOC than I treated captains and majors who were reporting to me for school (when i was assigned to a school unit). In fact i treated them like shit yelled and screamed and made them scared of me. I got to run their PT, room inspections, and some FTX stuff. Didn't get much more fun than that. ANCOC is more like ILE, show up for the classroom stuff, have my reports reading and analysis reports ready, and then we were left alone. The damn class sessions were only from 9 to 3 each day with a 2 hour lunch.

Amber Lamps

03-30-2010, 11:31 PM

I don't know about that. I think a lot of people join because they want to. Anyone who joined the military since 9/11 know what they're in for. You are likely going to see combat in a very dangerous part of the world and there are easier ways to pay for school vs getting shot at and possibly killed.

I think a lot of it is just old timer "back when I was... we had to carry rabid elephants on our backs while getting kicked in the balls by kangaroos". I'm sure if you take a civil war soldier and show them a WW2 soldier they'd just think they are pussies.

I've read reports and stories where the military find that games help make more affective soldiers because they are use to killing in games and when killing in the battlefield they adapt easier. I think one problem the military had was where soldiers would freeze up when faced with the decision of wether to kill another human being. An example is the military switching from circle targets to silloute targets in I think WW1. It made it more realistic.

Physical fitness can be fixed. From what I understand basic does a great job of that.

Come on the last few years aren't indicative of the entire military history of the U.S. Remember all those reservists who wanted to quit instead of go to Iraq? There are those that joined in the decades between Vietnam and Iraq that NEVER planned to even fire a round in anger. Trust me, I was one of them at first!:lol:

Dave

03-31-2010, 10:25 AM

Come on the last few years aren't indicative of the entire military history of the U.S. Remember all those reservists who wanted to quit instead of go to Iraq? There are those that joined in the decades between Vietnam and Iraq that NEVER planned to even fire a round in anger. Trust me, I was one of them at first!:lol:

heh i was surprised at how many nam guys were still around and trying to get deployed. Even ran across one lrrp guy at like 3am in al daura one night who couldnt wait to tell me how much better icdc was than arvn :lol:

Cutty72

03-31-2010, 12:33 PM

Warrents never had their own schools except for WOC, only in the last year or 2 have they been made to go to CCC, CGSC and ILE. And i dont know what you have seen, but I distinclty remember being treated much better in ANCOC than I treated captains and majors who were reporting to me for school (when i was assigned to a school unit). In fact i treated them like shit yelled and screamed and made them scared of me. I got to run their PT, room inspections, and some FTX stuff. Didn't get much more fun than that. ANCOC is more like ILE, show up for the classroom stuff, have my reports reading and analysis reports ready, and then we were left alone. The damn class sessions were only from 9 to 3 each day with a 2 hour lunch.

Warrants need to go to a school to move up to the next grade, just like NCO's.
Those courses, up until now, (at least for maintenance) have been Warrant specific.
I agree that NCO's in schools probably get treated better than regular officers. I am talking about the day to day activities. Warrant officers do not fall under any direct chain of command. They do what they want, when they want, for the most part. They get paid far better than the enlisted, don't have to put up with (as much) of the stupidity of the enlisted, and get away from some of the political BS associated with commissioned officers.
For example, we have 2 warrants with us in my BN. A CW3 that is the BMO, and a WO1 that is the S-6 OIC. They both report to the BC (0-5) and most of the time he forgets that they exist.

Maybe warrants in your area are different, or maybe it's just the maintenance aspect of it that changes things. Just going off the Chiefs that I know, and my experiences with them.

derf

03-31-2010, 07:18 PM

Warrants need to go to a school to move up to the next grade, just like NCO's.
Those courses, up until now, (at least for maintenance) have been Warrant specific.
I agree that NCO's in schools probably get treated better than regular officers. I am talking about the day to day activities. Warrant officers do not fall under any direct chain of command. They do what they want, when they want, for the most part. They get paid far better than the enlisted, don't have to put up with (as much) of the stupidity of the enlisted, and get away from some of the political BS associated with commissioned officers.
For example, we have 2 warrants with us in my BN. A CW3 that is the BMO, and a WO1 that is the S-6 OIC. They both report to the BC (0-5) and most of the time he forgets that they exist.

Maybe warrants in your area are different, or maybe it's just the maintenance aspect of it that changes things. Just going off the Chiefs that I know, and my experiences with them.

Yeh thats pretty much how they live, but for the past few years the army as a whole have been trying to get them to be more officerish, schools, traning, responsibility and all that stuff.