Teaching newbies to ride.

[Avatard]

My GF doesn't know how to ride. She's a spaz (totally). How do I keep her from defaulting to the dreaded "lock up, and careen into nearest object" mode?

I've told her what to do, and I've shown her. Somehow, deep in my heart I know this isn't enough.

I have a little 100cc dirt bike for her to learn on (perfect), but she is hitherto completely uninitiated in the use of a clutch, on any vehicle.

What suggestions can you folks offer me? What's worked for you guys in the past, when teaching others?

I hate spending the day in the emergency room. Should I just not attempt this? Are some just not meant to ride?

:lmao:

[Rider]

Sign her up for the MSF. My wife never rode anything on 2 wheels and she wanted to ride my 08 GSXR750. I told her to take the MSF. She did and I let her ride my bike with no problems.

[azoomm]

Msf

[julie j]

MSF for sure. Sometimes it is easier to learn from someone who is not your BF/spouse. It will be less stressful for both of you.

[Krabill]

Take that little dirt bike you've got to the biggest empty field you can find and start her out well away from your truck and pointed the opposite direction :lol:

[wildchild]

first step is sitting on the bike not running. make her "apply" the brakes and roll off the throttle. people almost always want to roll on the throttle as they go for the brake when beginning.
then on the little dirtbike like that I would take her in the yard or trail and do the clutch out and clutch in thing. let it out to get the bike going then pull it back in after ten feet or so. make her apply the brakes smoothly while pulling the clutch.
once she gets used to stopping like that you can let her start some slow laps. all first gear. if she grabs the brakes in the turn she'll go down but it'll be slow speed.

oh yeah, MSF as a required response.

[wildchild]

well away from your truck and pointed the opposite direction :lol:


this is very true. my kid almost nailed my truck when he did his first 12 o'clock wheelie on his way back to the truck(with a dirtbike). he brought it down just in time to stop.

[askmrjesus]

Toss her the keys, and tell her to aim for the trees.

Women don't listen, so she'll be just fine.

JC

[ontwo]

msf. It is hard for people to teach loved ones anything. She will do much better if you send her to the class. And don't hang around to watch

[OTB]

If'n you want a certain way to find yourself sleeping on the sofa; (or on the sofa in the garage), just try teaching someone you care for to ride.

Guaranteed silent treatment, ugly stares and tears.....

MSF, all the way.....

...unless you like the sofa and eating alone....

[Porkchop]

Take that little dirt bike you've got to the biggest empty field you can find and start her out well away from your truck and pointed the opposite direction :lol:

WIN....

Msf

This too....

[dReWpY]

msf

[skiergirl]

MSF - just because you can do something doesn't mean you can teach others to do it. Let someone trained give her the basics and you can help from there.

[Adeptus_Minor]

My girlfriend keeps talking about wanting to get her license at some point.
She will be taking the MSF if I have to pay for it and drive her there.
:wink:

[Avatard]

Take that little dirt bike you've got to the biggest empty field you can find and start her out well away from your truck and pointed the opposite direction :lol:

This is perhaps along the lines of the answer I was looking for.

Taking a course? lol.

I personally have never taken a course in anything, and I think if I elevated this to the level of gravity of "taking a course", it probably wouldn't get far.

[Apoc]

Ya, no point in trying to teach her yourself, you have anger and crying to look forward to.

[Apoc]

This is perhaps along the lines of the answer I was looking for.

Taking a course? lol.

I personally have never taken a course in anything, and I think if I elevated this to the level of gravity of "taking a course", it probably wouldn't get far.

Ya, but your like most of us, no doubt. Grew up driving anything and everything. This chick has never driven a standard. You might be best springing for the course. Women dont learn the same way we do, and they resent learning from boyfriends, in my experience.

Skip the riding, and teach her to open beer and bring sammiches!

[Avatard]

Ya, but your like most of us, no doubt. Grew up driving anything and everything.

True.


This chick has never driven a standard.

She has problems operating the radio.


You might be best springing for the course. Women dont learn the same way we do, and they resent learning from boyfriends, in my experience.

I know this from trying to teach my ex-wife to drive.

Talk about fucking hopeless. Took a driving course instructor to pull it off...so yes, I remember well what you describe.


Skip the riding, and teach her to open beer and bring sammiches!

This may be the best answer of all.

[Dave]

i was going to say that its not that difficult to teach a loved one and avoid being banished to the couch but if shes that bad go ahead and pass the buck.

[anthonyk]

I'd still give her the choice to take a course from a pro. We all know your bias against schooling, but it might not be a bad idea in her case.

[the chi]

Ya know, while I recommend the MSF to everyone, I dont understand this automatic response everyone has to the dreaded teaching a loved one the basics.

Im the kinda person who appreciates knowing how the damn thing works before Im expected to just do it so I cheated and learned ahead of time on my own, but I have taught a couple boyfriends and my current hubby how to ride, the basics if you will and never had a single issue with it as well as giving some newbie friends some pointers before MSF. Never once have I had the poor reactions "everyone" talks about. Granted im not the woman being taught, but if you are level headed, patient and manage to hammer the important bits in her head before letting her take over I dont see why you'd have an issue.

Teaching my hubby was as easy as taking him to a parking lot, telling him what everything did (tho he already knew), explaining how much of him would be smeared if he decided to get froggy and not gently cltuch, brake and move and letting him practice a few lil things like finding the friction spot, slowly moving forward, braking, moving forward, harder braking, and mostly alot of the stuff the MSF teaches. After he was good in a straight line and slaloming slowly I explained the "you go where you look" process and let him loose riding huge circles in the parking lot. He did great and immediately went to the MSF the happier for having at least some basic usable knowledge.

Granted, the females I've helped out tend to be slower on the uptake usually but I've done the same with a few friends and they did fine. Obviously they arent ready for street riding or getting out in a group, but ya gotta start somewhere.

If she refuses to take the MSF and wants to street ride, get her out in some VERY quiet neighborhoods and let her lead you around at her own pace till her skills improve and she's ready for a more fast pace.

[karl_1052]

MSF for sure. Sometimes it is easier to learn from someone who is not your BF/spouse. It will be less stressful for both of you.

This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wildchild]

If she refuses to take the MSF and wants to street ride, get her out in some VERY quiet neighborhoods and let her lead you around at her own pace till her skills improve and she's ready for a more fast pace.

I'm glad somone else does this. I see so many guys bring their wives home from MSF and then hop on bikes and say "honey follow me" then proceed to take off like a bat out of hell. One guy left his wife behind in the mountains in Tenn in the rain on a ride we were on. I wound up riding down with her just to make sure she made it. I think trying to keep up is one of the major causes of newbie accidents.

[Apoc]

Teaching my hubby was as easy as taking him to a parking lot, telling him what everything did (tho he already knew), explaining how much of him would be smeared if he decided to get froggy and not gently cltuch, brake and move and letting him practice a few lil things like finding the friction spot, slowly moving forward, braking, moving forward, harder braking, and mostly alot of the stuff the MSF teaches. After he was good in a straight line and slaloming slowly I explained the "you go where you look" process and let him loose riding huge circles in the parking lot. He did great and immediately went to the MSF the happier for having at least some basic usable knowledge.
.

Hehehehe, your hubby was taught by a girl! :lol:

A wise man once said, 'Its better to die trying, then to learn from a woman'.

That wise man was me. Today. In this thread.

redflip

[the chi]

Asshole. :lol:

One other thing Avatard, show her the gruesome nasty pics and vids of other spazzing folks that tried to ride.

[Trip]

I have two reasons why I recommend the MSF

1) I don't want to teach anyone

2) Insurance discount

Otherwise it doesn't make a damn difference. You aren't prepared to ride street after MSF. You still need to be taught a lot of shit and someone is still going to have to teach you. Why not just let that same person just teach you the basic shit too? (just as long as it's not me)

Hell 50% of the stuff in MSF isn't very applicable to a sportbike anyway. It's generic for everyone, well mostly cruiser folk.

[Rangerscott]

Get her on the bike. Slap that bitch on the ass and yell Yee Hawww!

[Full Throttle]

I have two reasons why I recommend the MSF

1) I don't want to teach anyone

2) Insurance discount

Otherwise it doesn't make a damn difference. You aren't prepared to ride street after MSF. You still need to be taught a lot of shit and someone is still going to have to teach you. Why not just let that same person just teach you the basic shit too? (just as long as it's not me)

I dont mind teaching someone how to ride but i def would recommend the MSF either way.

1. You get your licence when you finish. Cant beat that.
2. Like Trip said Insurance discount.

Hell 50% of the stuff in MSF isn't very applicable to a sportbike anyway. It's generic for everyone, well mostly cruiser folk.

I second that. Not one person was there to ride a sportbike when i took my MSF course. The instructors both rode Goldwings and tailored the course around the people there to ride cruisers.

[Trip]

1. You get your licence when you finish. Cant beat that.

I forgot about that one, not having to wait too long at the DMV to take the stupid tests is another good reason to go to MSF. Make that my third reason.

[Rangerscott]

Just teach her yourself. She'll get frustrated and give up in 10 minutes. Every woman I've tried to teach does this. Then they want someone else to teach them and they get mad at the other person.

[Full Throttle]

Just teach her yourself. She'll get frustrated and give up in 10 minutes. Every woman I've tried to teach does this. Then they want someone else to teach them and they get mad at the other person.

Until they find someone who does teach them and they leave you for them. ohhh not a good situation. MSF

Trip and i gave 3 reasons. Well i gave 1 and he gave 2 but whatever.

1. Saves you the headache of teaching them.

2. She will get her licence.

3. It will reduce her insurance.

Oh and i think the vote goes to MSF

Sign her up for the MSF. My wife never rode anything on 2 wheels and she wanted to ride my 08 GSXR750. I told her to take the MSF. She did and I let her ride my bike with no problems.

Msf

MSF for sure. Sometimes it is easier to learn from someone who is not your BF/spouse. It will be less stressful for both of you.

=wildchild;364293
oh yeah, MSF as a required response.

msf. It is hard for people to teach loved ones anything. She will do much better if you send her to the class. And don't hang around to watch


MSF, all the way......

msf

MSF - just because you can do something doesn't mean you can teach others to do it. Let someone trained give her the basics and you can help from there.

My girlfriend keeps talking about wanting to get her license at some point.
She will be taking the MSF if I have to pay for it and drive her there.
:wink:

Ya know, while I recommend the MSF to everyone, I dont understand this automatic response everyone has to the dreaded teaching a loved one the basics.


I have two reasons why I recommend the MSF

1) I don't want to teach anyone

2) Insurance discount

[askmrjesus]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but MSF is always an option.

JC

[Cruzergirl]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but MSF is always an option.

JC

Well that came out of left field.


:lol:


I was taught by my SO. He did a fabulous job. We remained together. I also took the MSF course. It didn't teach me anything he hadn't already taught me but I got my license and it was fun.

Whatever. :lol

[Smittie61984]

MSF is for pussies. Get a Busa and wheelie that bitch. Plus you only need first gear so she doesn't have to worry about the clutch except for take off.

By the way I taught my friends how to start out by showing them you can start moving from a stop using only the clutch. I'd put my right hand behind my back and ease off the clutch until the bike started moving. They tried it and figured out the clutch quickly.

[Looni2ns]

If you want to show her the basics about the mechanics of the bike, etc., that's fine. Nice big parking lot, and a lot of patience is necessary. The MSF course teaches proper riding techniques, and you don't have to deal with expectations. She'll learn on a small, underpowered bike that she can flat foot, and can handle the power band. Plus, she won't learn your bad riding habits.

I'm sure you know it all, but she doesn't. Let her learn proper techniques, good safety habits, etc. from folks that care, and will have the patience to go at her pace, not yours.

If she's not cut out to ride, or puts herself or the others in the class at risk, the MSF instructors will take her aside and counsel her out of the course.

You care about her safety, right?

[Looni2ns]

Or, be a real friend, and take the MSF course with her. God forbid, you might learn something!

[Tmall]

Or, be a real friend, and take the MSF course with her. God forbid, you might learn something!

What's 800 bucks, right? :lol

[Adeptus_Minor]

What's 800 bucks, right? :lol

The MSF costs that much in Canada? Total Rider here in Austin only charges $195.

[Tmall]

The MSF costs that much in Canada? Total Rider here in Austin only charges $195.


It's around $440 right now.

[Avatard]

$250 here. That open field is sounding good.

[Rangerscott]

Yup. Seems to go up every year. Either business is booming and they can get away charging more or business is sucking and they need to charge more.

[the chi]

Holy shit, I don't know if I would have taken it for those prices. Talk about prohibitive costs.

[Dnyce]

open field+videocamera=win

[Amorok]

As an MSF instructor I'm biased but take the course. I gaurantee you'll learn a lot, she'll learn a lot, and you'll get an insurance break. It will eventually pay for itself.

[Tmall]

As an MSF instructor I'm biased but take the course. I gaurantee you'll learn a lot, she'll learn a lot, and you'll get an insurance break. It will eventually pay for itself.

We don't really get an insurance break either. It counts as a year of experience, but it only matters after 3 years. So, it does help your insurance, but it only does it after 2-3 years of riding.

[Amorok]

That sucks. If you lived around here I'd just put you through my class.

[wildchild]

$365 - $395 here.

required for anyone under 18 to ride a bike.

[Trip]

As an MSF instructor I'm biased but take the course.

How much do you know about riding a sportbike though?

I mean I wouldn't go teach a dirt class when I am a noob when it comes to dirt.

This is why I feel the course is worthless. There are very few instructors I would feel comfortable in letting teach my wife if she chose to learn.

[wildchild]

How much do you know about riding a sportbike though?

I mean I wouldn't go teach a dirt class when I am a noob when it comes to dirt.

This is why I feel the course is worthless. There are very few instructors I would feel comfortable in letting teach my wife if she chose to learn.

first thing the instructor in my son's class said was don't do the I think I'm cool two finger brake thing. he took the class at the Harley dealer. Ok now I know why they say that, hogs need a whole fistful of brakes to slow down. LOL

[azoomm]

the msf is now required in Texas to get your motorcycle license.

[Avatard]

Sounds like a great business move.

[Rangerscott]

Sounds like a great "we can stick it to the customer" move.


I think every girl should know how to ride stick.....I mean drive stick. But some have to pay extra.

[wildchild]

i think if it's state mandated then it should be provided at minimal cost by said state. hmmm safety would then seem more important then profit.

[RACER X]

How much do you know about riding a sportbike though?

I mean I wouldn't go teach a dirt class when I am a noob when it comes to dirt.

This is why I feel the course is worthless. There are very few instructors I would feel comfortable in letting teach my wife if she chose to learn.

are sportbikes somehow diff. then reg bikes? do the controls work diff.?

a bike is a bike, its a basic class. students come not knowing a damm thing about bikes and thats fine......the very first exercise is walking around the bike and pointing out all the controls, are sportbikes diff. ?

sportbikes stop the same way, turn the same way, launch the same way as any other bike (currently).

and me, i recommend taking the class, ride a while 5-6000mi then attend a trackday, i'm sure you guys don't want people LEARNING to ride doing trackdays.

just curious how many nay sayers actually have taken the class.

cuz i've had students who've been riding along time and if they want they get something out of the class, if you already know everything what else is there to learn, right?



where i used to teach (haven't taught in over a yr) it's still $165, has been that way for 2-3 yrs and the law passed last sept as azoom pointed out, and the price hasn't risen, so schools charge more, but it's like any product, some places sell it high some low. some states its free, depends on state funding.

[Trip]

The class is very geared toward riding a cruiser. You even learn mostly on cruisers or a dual sport if you are lucky. Body position, handling, braking, and you know the basic performance qualities of the bike vary completely. It would be nice to learn on someething similar to what you will be riding.

I took the class and if I were to teach someone, I would use some of the basic lessons I picked up to teach someone, but I would also add a lot that isn't cover that should be essential for street riding.

I think some people get a false sense of being ready for the street after the class when that is far from the truth.

[RACER X]

It would be nice to learn on someething similar to what you will be riding.


I think some people get a false sense of being ready for the street after the class when that is far from the truth.

so MSF should put people on 600SS bikes to learn on? lol, i've had students wheelie the 125s, IN A BRAKING EXERCISE........

true. but many also learn on their own figuring as they go along and hit the streets , so which is a better option?

and i and many inst. tell students that now "they're parking lot certified"

[Trip]

I unlike msf would just refuse to teach someone that couldn't handle basic control.

I would probably give the first lesson on controls with my fiddy. Its more responsive at low speed than a sportbike.

Msf isn't the end all be all of moto training. Sorry it just isn't worth the money if you have someone who can train you just as easily unless you can recoup the costs.

[Rangerscott]

I'd rather learn on a ninja 250 than a cruiser. They may stop/start the same but they do not handle the same.

[skiergirl]

I took the MSF course many many years ago at the Harley Davidson plant in York PA, and we rode 250's....Not Harley's or anything remotely Cruiser-like...

[Cutty72]

We were on Kawasaki 125 Eliminators, and there was one 250 Kymco something. Looked like a mini Vrod.

OH, and yes, the Eliminator WILL wheelie, but damn do you have to try! :lol:

[karl_1052]

I'd rather learn on a ninja 250 than a cruiser. They may stop/start the same but they do not handle the same.

But then every time the bike is dropped, you have to replace the fairings. Your $500 course just became $1000.

There are a few reasons sportbikes are not used(cost, complexity, userfriendliness)

[Smittie61984]

I'd rather learn on a ninja 250 than a cruiser. They may stop/start the same but they do not handle the same.

Most courses around here have you on a Ninja 250 and I think the Harley places even use the Buell Blasts.

I tried the "cool" two finger thing coming up on a deer and I did the highest stoppie I have ever done. I would have died if I tried the 4 fingers and my bike's brakes where worn out on a 1996 model.

[Rangerscott]

But then every time the bike is dropped, you have to replace the fairings. Your $500 course just became $1000.

There are a few reasons sportbikes are not used(cost, complexity, userfriendliness)


I've never heard of a customer having to pay for damage at a "learning" msf course.

[RACER X]

I unlike msf would just refuse to teach someone that couldn't handle basic control.

I would probably give the first lesson on controls with my fiddy. Its more responsive at low speed than a sportbike.

Msf isn't the end all be all of moto training. Sorry it just isn't worth the money if you have someone who can train you just as easily unless you can recoup the costs.

you teaching people once in a while includes "oh yeah, you need to learn to do this" "and another thing you need to do is" and so on, you have no regimented routine, it's off the cuff.

is the MSF the only way to learn, NO, but it's better then you or any other person throwing out there personnal idea's. and who's to say you or another home schooled teacher is teaching the right technique. trust me, not everybody is as good as you are. i've heard of people teaching rear brakes only.

http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~john/vfr/hurt.html

a synopsis of the hurt report

"22. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents. "

I've never heard of a customer having to pay for damage at a "learning" msf course.

no the students wouldn't pay up front, but the cost of overhead has gone up to replace plastics, who's gonna end up paying?

[101lifts2]

Is this chick 50 years old?

[Avatard]

Yes.

[RACER X]

tell her to go ride a bicycle as fast as she can, and practice making turns and such.

[Trip]

you teaching people once in a while includes "oh yeah, you need to learn to do this" "and another thing you need to do is" and so on, you have no regimented routine, it's off the cuff.

is the MSF the only way to learn, NO, but it's better then you or any other person throwing out there personnal idea's. and who's to say you or another home schooled teacher is teaching the right technique. trust me, not everybody is as good as you are. i've heard of people teaching rear brakes only.

http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~john/vfr/hurt.html

a synopsis of the hurt report

"22. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents. "

no the students wouldn't pay up front, but the cost of overhead has gone up to replace plastics, who's gonna end up paying?

Yes, because you know my teaching methods... nice ASSumption there buddy.

I am a freakin engineer, and to add to that I am a freakin engineer that works in the nuclear industry. If anything, I don't do anything off the cuff. I write procedures on how to turn a screw driver. I can guarantee if I decided to teach someone, they would get a more rigorous training than MSF to the point where they would be telling me to shut up and let them ride already.

MSF is very basic training. It's nothing that spectacular or revolutionary and most people on this board can give the same type or better of training if they put their heads into it. As you said, you are just parking lot trained. There is still a lot to learn and you will need those same friends to get you to the point where you are comfortable being on the road.

[Avatard]

As you said, you are just parking lot trained.

I wonder if he's even house trained.

[RACER X]

I am a freakin engineer, and to add to that I am a freakin engineer that works in the nuclear industry. If anything, I don't do anything off the cuff. I write procedures on how to turn a screw driver. I can guarantee if I decided to teach someone, they would get a more rigorous training than MSF to the point where they would be telling me to shut up and let them ride already.

.

so, my parents are engineers and i work(ed) w/ alongside them all day long, and we design/build plants that go BOOM also.

my B-I-L is also a technical writer, he writes manuels on how to turn screws too, but he's not an engineer.

all talk no action and yes you're right, it's not hard to teach (i'm proof) but it's been thought out over 40 something yrs w/ alot of diff. people involved. vs you and ? yrs of riding.

all i see is talk from you about how you'd do, but it reality it's talk and you haven' done anything but that.........everybody knows better but has never done it.

like i said, is it an end all to training, NO, but it is a good foundation, sure you can do better, prove it.

[RACER X]

this is fact:

"22. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents. "

your results may vary.

[Apoc]

Fact: 88% of all statistics are made up.

[RACER X]

http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~john/vfr/hurt.html

like i said, it's a synopsis of the "hurt report"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurt_Report

[Apoc]

Wait, did you just try to use wikipedia as a credible source?

[RACER X]

its a start

the hurt report is a real study

the maids report is the newest one. its 435 pages

http://www.maids-study.eu/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAIDS_report

[Tmall]

Remember when Derf posted this
http://www.twowheelfix.com/showthread.php?t=14085 ?

It's a recent report saying that you have a 10% higher chance of being in a fatal accident if you've been trained.

[RACER X]

Remember when Derf posted this
http://www.twowheelfix.com/showthread.php?t=14085 ?

It's a recent report saying that you have a 10% higher chance of being in a fatal accident if you've been trained.

"•The frequency of insurance collision claims for riders younger than 21 is 10 percent higher in states that require riders this age to take a training course before they become eligible for a license to drive a motorcycle, compared with states that don't require training. Although this difference isn't statistically significant, it contradicts the notion that training courses reduce crashes. A potential explanation is that riders in some states are fully licensed once they finish training. This might shorten the permit period so that riders end up with full licenses earlier than if training weren't mandated."

ins. claims are diff then fatalities.

[Tmall]

"•The frequency of insurance collision claims for riders younger than 21 is 10 percent higher in states that require riders this age to take a training course before they become eligible for a license to drive a motorcycle, compared with states that don't require training. Although this difference isn't statistically significant, it contradicts the notion that training courses reduce crashes. A potential explanation is that riders in some states are fully licensed once they finish training. This might shorten the permit period so that riders end up with full licenses earlier than if training weren't mandated."

ins. claims are diff then fatalities. You're right, I just went by Derf's quick description. However there are facts stating that trained people under 21 are 10% likelier to make a claim. Claims usually indicate accidents.

[Trip]

What level of training is the euro report referring too? Euro training and testing is leaps and bounds better than the msf.

Sorry racer your bias can only carry you so far but the Limitations of msf are glaring.

[racedoll]

Ya know, while I recommend the MSF to everyone, I dont understand this automatic response everyone has to the dreaded teaching a loved one the basics.

Hubby taught me for the most part. I had moments were I got mad and directed it toward him. Fortunately he knew that I wasn't actually mad at him, but at myself and only taking out on him. It didn't turn out to be too bad for either of us. I did pick up on some of his habits. They aren't really bad, just not proper techniques.

On the flip side, this doesn't work so well when I'm trying to help him with math. He is better off learning from someone other than me.

If she refuses to take the MSF and wants to street ride, get her out in some VERY quiet neighborhoods and let her lead you around at her own pace till her skills improve and she's ready for a more fast pace.

I'm glad somone else does this. I see so many guys bring their wives home from MSF and then hop on bikes and say "honey follow me" then proceed to take off like a bat out of hell. One guy left his wife behind in the mountains in Tenn in the rain on a ride we were on. I wound up riding down with her just to make sure she made it. I think trying to keep up is one of the major causes of newbie accidents.

I rode around his apt parking lot for an entire weekend or so and then in a large parking lot. When I did venture out on the road we would stay on back roads that had less traffic. It was quite a while before he would let me go into town and our towns aren't very big.

He followed me and sometimes that made me feel like I was being pushed. I preferred when he would lead, which was at a comfortable pace for me. He knew the limits and knew I wouldn't push mine.

Or, be a real friend, and take the MSF course with her. God forbid, you might learn something!

Good idea, but could also intimidate her even more too.

The MSF costs that much in Canada? Total Rider here in Austin only charges $195.

It's around $440 right now.

$250 here. That open field is sounding good.

HOLY CRAP!!! Ohio is $25 and has been since 2002. If you are under 18 it is mandatory and I think maybe free. In 2000 or so they changed it so you can now get your endorsement after passing the course.

My GF doesn't know how to ride. She's a spaz (totally).

I've told her what to do, and I've shown her. Somehow, deep in my heart I know this isn't enough.

I have a little 100cc dirt bike for her to learn on (perfect), but she is hitherto completely uninitiated in the use of a clutch, on any vehicle.

What suggestions can you folks offer me? What's worked for you guys in the past, when teaching others?

I hate spending the day in the emergency room. Should I just not attempt this? Are some just not meant to ride?

:lmao:

Kind of sounds like maybe she shouldn't be riding :shrug: But I don't know her or you so I can't make an accurate judgement.
I would say there are some that are "just not meant to ride". Is this your GF? Maybe, maybe not. Again, I don't know either of you.

I would say that if she persists in learning and goes through the MSF or even has you teach her that you have a little more faith in her. She will definitely pick on you doubting her abilities which will piss her off more, especially if she is struggling. Be supportive and helpful.

[RACER X]

What level of training is the euro report referring too? Euro training and testing is leaps and bounds better than the msf.

Sorry racer your bias can only carry you so far but the Limitations of msf are glaring.

glaring.......lol

it's a public service, is it the end all, NO, is it better then nothing, YES

you can make a diff. since you're so knowledgable. join the ranks.

whatever man, we call talk like we'll do something grand and make a better mousetrap, but in the end it's all talk.

[Trip]

glaring.......lol

it's a public service, is it the end all, NO, is it better then nothing, YES

you can make a diff. since you're so knowledgable. join the ranks.

whatever man, we call talk like we'll do something grand and make a better mousetrap, but in the end it's all talk.

There is better, there is lots better. There are all sorts of better training classes out there that are more in depth. However they require far more money and time. Something a lot of people don't want to give to this training.

The problem with MSF is it's pricing itself above it's value. It's a decent course sub $100, but in most markets it's well over that now. Sorry, but it's just not worth it. For the type of fees they are charging, you should get a lot more value for your money.

I don't have the time to do MSF and why would I support something I don't believe in anyway?

I am not looking to train everyone out there. I am not looking train all the sportbikers. I am only giving advice to those that ask for it. If you have an experienced rider that is willing to spend far more time with you than MSF and monitor your training beyond the parking lot, you can be better off than taking the MSF and then trying to figure wtf you are suppose to do on the road.

I believe avatard has enough experience to train his girl far better than what's offered in MSF. If they will have the patience to allow for this is a whole other question that I wouldn't know because I don't know him to that level.

[racedoll]

If you have an experienced rider that is willing to spend far more time with you than MSF and monitor your training beyond the parking lot, you can be better off than taking the MSF and then trying to figure wtf you are suppose to do on the road.

I believe avatard has enough experience to train his girl far better than what's offered in MSF. If they will have the patience to allow for this is a whole other question that I wouldn't know because I don't know him to that level.

I'll agree with this but I will also say this. Maybe Avatard doesn't have the patience to teach his GF to ride a bike? If that is the case, then her taking the MSF to start is a good foundation that he can then build upon to take her beyond the parking lot. She will have a basic knowledge to get less frustrated when he is helping her.

Then again, maybe not.

[Trip]

I'll agree with this but I will also say this. Maybe Avatard doesn't have the patience to teach his GF to ride a bike? If that is the case, then her taking the MSF to start is a good foundation that he can then build upon to take her beyond the parking lot. She will have a basic knowledge to get less frustrated when he is helping her.

Then again, maybe not.

Yeah I can't answer that question, not really knowing them. That's also why I tell people to take MSF, because with my lack of free time I don't really have the patience to teach most people. If it was someone important to me, I would make the time though. If I found we couldn't work together properly, I would also advise them to continue training through MSF.

[Rangerscott]

I taught myself to ride. That means any asshole out there can. So get on that bike and join the other asshole out there on the road. It'll be grand.

[RACER X]

The problem with MSF is it's pricing itself above it's value. It's a decent course sub $100, but in most markets it's well over that now. Sorry, but it's just not worth it. For the type of fees they are charging, you should get a lot more value for your money.

.

sub $100, you realize its about 15-16hrs total of classroom/riding, w/ the maj. of it being riding?

how much should it be?

like i said, it's state subsidized, some states free some more. i bet most of the $400 are HD;s riding program w/ the HD price (Riders Edge).

as for better programs, sure they are "better" programs for already able riders, i can't think of any that start out w/ "this is the ft brake, this is the throttle"

http://www.ridelikeaprohouston.com/

$100 for 5 hrs

heck even these guys recommend taking MSF

"Every rider should sign up for as many MSF, or ERC classes, as you can. Knowledge is power, the more information riders get from the videos, books and classes, the better, safer and more skilled riders you become"

[Trip]

sub $100, you realize its about 15-16hrs total of classroom/riding, w/ the maj. of it being riding?

how much should it be?

like i said, it's state subsidized, some states free some more. i bet most of the $400 are HD;s riding program w/ the HD price (Riders Edge).

as for better programs, sure they are "better" programs for already able riders, i can't think of any that start out w/ "this is the ft brake, this is the throttle"

http://www.ridelikeaprohouston.com/

$100 for 5 hrs

heck even these guys recommend taking MSF

"Every rider should sign up for as many MSF, or ERC classes, as you can. Knowledge is power, the more information riders get from the videos, books and classes, the better, safer and more skilled riders you become"

It should be sub $100 for the amount of people they put in the class.

Europe has much better training programs. That don't revolve around bruh bruh bruh bruh riders either. We just have shit for training here in the states.

Personally, I think the learn in the dirt when you are a kid is the best way to go about things.

I don't really give a damn what some guys who put on a class in Houston think really.

[Avatard]

I'll agree with this but I will also say this. Maybe Avatard doesn't have the patience to teach his GF to ride a bike? If that is the case, then her taking the MSF to start is a good foundation that he can then build upon to take her beyond the parking lot. She will have a basic knowledge to get less frustrated when he is helping her.

Then again, maybe not.

Nah, I have the patience, but she locks up easy. I dunno if it's a touch of dyslexia, or what...but often there's a comm. fail too. That only makes it worse...but I've seen her lock under even mild pressure. Some people are solid under pressure (I am)...she's a doe in headlights.

Trust me, I'm a good judge of this, and she's a prime candidate for the 'ole "twist and freeze".

[Archren]

Nah, I have the patience, but she locks up easy. I dunno if it's a touch of dyslexia, or what...but often there's a comm. fail too. That only makes it worse...but I've seen her lock under even mild pressure. Some people are solid under pressure (I am)...she's a doe in headlights.

Trust me, I'm a good judge of this, and she's a prime candidate for the 'ole "twist and freeze".

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, man, but maybe she is the LAST person you want on a motorcycle.

Someone at that age with that kind of twitchiness isn't going to just get over it. Particularly with the nature of motorcycling involving quick thinking and quick reactions to several things at once (for instance, making the quick decision to quick stop or dodge, depending on if you have a car riding your ass behind you). Freezing has a high chance of being deadly.

Just my opinion.

I am a fan of the MSF myself. But then I learn better in a regimented environment where there are other noobs around me so I don't feel like as much of an idiot. :lol: It is just a very BASIC course, but it's a good start, and you can always supplement what she learns from the course. Again, just an opinion.

[101lifts2]

this is fact:

"22. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents. "

your results may vary.

As others pointed out, according to this study, the claim is the opposite of what you stated. http://www.kfbb.com/news/local/90432134.html#commentbox

But the accident rate of these people taking the MSF IMO has nothing to do with taking a course or being a more educated rider. Riders taking courses as such tend to be more sportbike oriented and as a result will push their limits. Also, a large reason people take the MSF course is to get out of taking the DMV road test, which is inherently harder on a sportbike.

[RACER X]

It should be sub $100 for the amount of people they put in the class.

Europe has much better training programs. That don't revolve around bruh bruh bruh bruh riders either. We just have shit for training here in the states.

Personally, I think the learn in the dirt when you are a kid is the best way to go about things.

I don't really give a damn what some guys who put on a class in Houston think really.

ok, so how much should a class cost? 12 students, how much you gonna pay instructors , one's that ride motorcycles (which tends to be a more affluent group then the avg car drivers).

and i agree eur. has a better system, but it ain't happening here, tiered licensing.........i wish........longer course.........lol , people can barely sit thru 2 days here.........

As others pointed out, according to this study the claim is the opposite of what you stated. http://www.kfbb.com/news/local/90432134.html#commentbox

But the accident rate of these people taking the MSF IMO has nothing to do with taking a course or being a more educated rider. Riders taking courses as such tend to be more sportbike oriented and as a result will push their limits. Also, a large reason people take the MSF course is to get out of taking the DMV road test, which is inherently harder on a sportbike.

that link is useless, the one derf put up is better

so who do riders that crash but don't claim it on ins. tell that they've crashed? most accidents are single bike. hell, i took msf crashed and told nobody so theoretically i would add to their stat but i didn't make a claim. so of ALL the crashes how many are unaccounted for and not in the stat? i would bet alot.

sportbike riders are the minority in class. cuz young guys already know everything........lol or don't make it a priority vs a cool bike.

before texas mandated MSF to get a license, the road course could be go down the street and back.....hard i know. if you think MSF class is weaksauce, you outta see the state tests.....lol

[Trip]

ok, so how much should a class cost? 12 students, how much you gonna pay instructors , one's that ride motorcycles (which tends to be a more affluent group then the avg car drivers).

sub $100, based on my experience MSF teachers don't necessarily have to be quality riders so paying a premium for them isn't a necessity.

Get a better course that is more in depth that is worth the extra cost for quality experienced riders as teachers and I would have no issue with a high cost.

[RACER X]

sub $100, based on my experience MSF teachers don't necessarily have to be quality riders so paying a premium for them isn't a necessity.

Get a better course that is more in depth that is worth the extra cost for quality experienced riders as teachers and I would have no issue with a high cost.

lol, people are scoffing at $100-200 now, you think raising the price is gonna fly.....even w/ "improved" riding.......this is the land of WAL-MART.......and instant gratification.

what do you want to see more indepth?


who's talking about quality, these instructors for the most part have real jobs and do MSF on the weekend , who's gonna stand in the hot sun (or cold rain) for 12-13hrs walk a few miles after working 40hrs for $10/hr........not me.

[Trip]

lol, people are scoffing at $100-200 now, you think raising the price is gonna fly.....even w/ "improved" riding.......this is the land of WAL-MART.......and instant gratification.

what do you want to see more indepth?

who's talking about quality, these instructors for the most part have real jobs and do MSF on the weekend , who's gonna stand in the hot sun (or cold rain) for 12-13hrs walk a few miles after working 40hrs for $10/hr........not me.

I am not about what the cruiser people and people who want the lifestyle want, that's why I don't mind sending those people toward MSF. If someone I liked chose to learn, I would point them in what I would consider a more appropriate direction that would get them on the street safely.

Everything, the course is too minimalistic. It's a very basic overview of motorcycle operation when one should expect a motorcycle street training course.

It's the instructors choice to continue this system. No one is forcing them out there. I have no interest in supporting it and could careless what they do for how little they get paid.

[RACER X]

I am not about what the cruiser people and people who want the lifestyle want, that's why I don't mind sending those people toward MSF. If someone I liked chose to learn, I would point them in what I would consider a more appropriate direction that would get them on the street safely.

Everything, the course is too minimalistic. It's a very basic overview of motorcycle operation when one should expect a motorcycle street training course.

It's the instructors choice to continue this system. No one is forcing them out there. I have no interest in supporting it and could careless what they do for how little they get paid.

so whats your actual experience w/ the MSF? ever taken the class?

so where do you send them if not MSF?

crazy, it's called teh BASIC rider course (BRC)

not understanding this "continue the system", there are yearly updates, not that basic riding changes alot.

most courses are aligned w/ the state riding test and the testing criteria is set by the state.

going outside the parameter's set by the state would mean jeopordizing your license.

the reality is that the test MSF gives at the end of the course is way harder then the state riding test, at least in TX. and i would guess most states.

we made $425 for a weekend, and many places are short inst. cuz for many it's not worth the time, it wasn't for me last yr, so i didn't teach any last yr. so i'm not even sure if i'm still an inst. since you have to teach 1-2 yr to keep up your certification.

[101lifts2]

....that link is useless, the one derf put up is better...

The one he posted was regarding ABS, but contained one small paragraph about riders taking a course. The one I posted was all about how rider courses do not decrease claims.

...sportbike riders are the minority in class. cuz young guys already know everything........lol or don't make it a priority vs a cool bike.

before texas mandated MSF to get a license, the road course could be go down the street and back.....hard i know. if you think MSF class is weaksauce, you outta see the state tests.....lol

Not in CA. The DMV test is harder. You basically have to go 2mph around cones and make figure 8s. One foot down and you fail.

[RACER X]

Not in CA. The DMV test is harder. You basically have to go 2mph around cones and make figure 8s. One foot down and you fail.

MSF you have to
1) make a fig. 8 in a box.
a) demonstrate a swerve (after exiting the fig 8), w/ a specific speed
3) quick stop from a specific speed also downshifting from 2nd to 1st
4) make it thru 2 turns w/o going outside the lines at a specific speed, slow look press and roll and technique is critiqued.

thru the test, points are being taken off for "doing it wrong", putting your foot down in the box, taking to long to stop, crossing the lines in the corner.

only way to fail automatically is touch the bike down, crash or run over an inst.

[101lifts2]

I am not about what the cruiser people and people who want the lifestyle want, that's why I don't mind sending those people toward MSF. ....


What is the difference between riding a cruiser or sportbike on the street if you are doing the speed limit? I'll answer..nothing, which is exactly what the MSF targets: street riding.

If a sportbiker wishes to go faster and learn how to lean farther/hang off, then take a track school. If you want to wheelie then take a wheelie school.

[Trip]

so whats your actual experience w/ the MSF? ever taken the class?

so where do you send them if not MSF?

crazy, it's called teh BASIC rider course (BRC)

not understanding this "continue the system", there are yearly updates, not that basic riding changes alot.

most courses are aligned w/ the state riding test and the testing criteria is set by the state.

going outside the parameter's set by the state would mean jeopordizing your license.

the reality is that the test MSF gives at the end of the course is way harder then the state riding test, at least in TX. and i would guess most states.

we made $425 for a weekend, and many places are short inst. cuz for many it's not worth the time, it wasn't for me last yr, so i didn't teach any last yr. so i'm not even sure if i'm still an inst. since you have to teach 1-2 yr to keep up your certification.

I took the BRC because I didn't know anyone to teach me. Then I about killed myself on the street til I found someone to actually teach me to ride on the street.

There really isn't a better place to send people in the states. That's why I send people I don't care to teach (which is pretty much everyone) to MSF.

[RACER X]

I took the BRC because I didn't know anyone to teach me. Then I about killed myself on the street til I found someone to actually teach me to ride on the street.

There really isn't a better place to send people in the states. That's why I send people I don't care to teach (which is pretty much everyone) to MSF.

ok, so was that MSF's fault or yours? i took MSF (having never ridden before) and rode to work MON after class thru rush hour traffic and home in the rain. crashing 8000mi later, still in my first yr of riding. and i chalk it up to MSF teaching me good basic skills. i crashed cuz i was riding stupidly on the streets. and had no rider friends before starting to ride to "teach me", nor really any after taking MSF. just peeps i ran the streets w/, but none gave me any real pointers.

so where do you send people who you "do care about" if not MSF, and since you don't teach?

[Trip]

ok, so was that MSF's fault or yours? i took MSF (having never ridden before) and rode to work MON after class thru rush hour traffic and home in the rain. crashing 8000mi later, still in my first yr of riding. and i chalk it up to MSF teaching me good basic skills.

so where do you send people who you "do care about" if not MSF, and since you don't teach?

this is like the 2nd or 3rd time i've asked.......:?:

It's not MSF's, it's my fault for not researching the lack of training offered there and not finding trying to find a suitable alternative. The suitable alternative ended up being fellow riders.

I would teach someone I cared about as I have said before, but there aren't many I care about that much.

[Avatard]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, man, but maybe she is the LAST person you want on a motorcycle.

Someone at that age with that kind of twitchiness isn't going to just get over it. Particularly with the nature of motorcycling involving quick thinking and quick reactions to several things at once (for instance, making the quick decision to quick stop or dodge, depending on if you have a car riding your ass behind you). Freezing has a high chance of being deadly.

Just my opinion.

I am a fan of the MSF myself. But then I learn better in a regimented environment where there are other noobs around me so I don't feel like as much of an idiot. :lol: It is just a very BASIC course, but it's a good start, and you can always supplement what she learns from the course. Again, just an opinion.

She has no aspirations to ride on the street. I have a little 100cc dirt bike she wants to try out. I'm certainly not enrolling her in a course. She very well may be one of those that has no business riding, hence my mentioning that in the OP...but I can tell she wishes she could conquer it.

Obviously, I would put her in full gear, and in a big grass field, with nothing to hit, for starters.

I was just wondering if anyone had any pointers for teaching the basics of controls, etc.

[Trip]

She has no aspirations to ride on the street. I have a little 100cc dirt bike she wants to try out. I'm certainly not enrolling her in a course. She very well may be one of those that has no business riding, hence my mentioning that in the OP...but I can tell she wishes she could conquer it.

Obviously, I would put her in full gear, and in a big grass field, with nothing to hit, for starters.

I was just wondering if anyone had any pointers for teaching the basics of controls, etc.

Well that's easy, there is definitely no need to send her to MSF. Fuck MSF. My wife has never driven a manual trans car. I had her zipping around on my fiddy that is full manual not the semi-auto stock in no time.

Don't have any links for you, there are all sorts of good books out there though.

[RACER X]

I would teach someone I cared about as I have said before, but there aren't many I care about that much.

so other then yourself, and since your unwilling to get involved, are there really any other options for a "friend" your mildly care about? lol

[Trip]

so other then yourself, and since your unwilling to get involved, are there really any other options for a "friend" your mildly care about? lol

As previously said, since you seem to have a reading problem, if I don't really care I would send them to MSF.

[RACER X]

here's a start

i guess you can skip past all the first part to about pg 15


http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Riding_Tips.pdf

As previously said, since you seem to have a reading problem, if I don't really care I would send them to MSF.

so really there is no better place? then MSF that is, other then your own imaginary awesome training program.

[Trip]

so really there is no better place? then MSF that is, other then your own imaginary awesome training program.

Why are you so butt hurt about my opinion of MSF? It's an opinion, just like your awesome view of a shitty program.

Yes, there are really no other "official" programs out there. That doesn't mean someone can't train another person better than the MSF.

[RACER X]

Yes, there are really no other "official" programs out there. That doesn't mean someone can't train another person better than the MSF.

the realty is that 92% of those "taught" indiv. crash, sure there is the 8% that don't. i'm sure once you get your wife outta the fields and off that 50, she'll be in the latter w/ your tutelage.

you think the program sucks, i think diff. so were debating it.
neither of us is going to change each others mind, we're just wasting time

[Amorok]

Tard, let her practice clutch in, clutch out in an empty field until she can start
moving without stalling. Then have her practice power walking. Once you get her comfortable with that have her brake while she power walks, then eventually you can add in real riding and shifting. Should take a couple days with a couple hours a day.

Trip, what would you add to an MSF course to make it better? Did you take the BRC or the sport bike course? The BRC is not designed to teach you advanced techniques, it's designed to let you practice the basic physical and mental skills needed to move a motorcycle around safely. Ever studentthat graduates my course gets contact information to several riding groups in the area to help further their training, and sport bike riders get information about track days and why they need to go to one. I don't think the MSF is perfect by any means, but it's the best course of it's type out there. If you can think of ways for me to improve it by all means, let me know. And as for the money, I teach it for free and don't get paid, I don't have an opinion about pricing. But if you're in my area, and you bring your bike I'll put you through a course on my range if you want.

[RACER X]

Tard, let her practice clutch in, clutch out in an empty field until she can start
moving without stalling. Then have her practice power walking. Once you get her comfortable with that have her brake while she power walks, then eventually you can add in real riding and shifting. Should take a couple days with a couple hours a day.

Trip, what would you add to an MSF course to make it better? Did you take the BRC or the sport bike course? The BRC is not designed to teach you advanced techniques, it's designed to let you practice the basic physical and mental skills needed to move a motorcycle around safely. Ever studentthat graduates my course gets contact information to several riding groups in the area to help further their training, and sport bike riders get information about track days and why they need to go to one. I don't think the MSF is perfect by any means, but it's the best course of it's type out there. If you can think of ways for me to improve it by all means, let me know. And as for the money, I teach it for free and don't get paid, I don't have an opinion about pricing. But if you're in my area, and you bring your bike I'll put you through a course on my range if you want.

days and hours, lol, you know we get them "riding" in the 1st 1/2 hr.

too bad the sportbike class is military specific.

you teach for free WOW, is that part of your military duty? cuz you can make decent side $ teaching on weekends, alot better then delivering pizza.

[Trip]

the realty is that 92% of those "taught" indiv. crash, sure there is the 8% that don't. i'm sure once you get your wife outta the fields and off that 50, she'll be in the latter w/ your tutelage.

you think the program sucks, i think diff. so were debating it.
neither of us is going to change each others mind, we're just wasting time

I've crashed and I took the damn MSF. Most people crash, it's part of riding a motorcycle.

She's already crashed the fiddy, but that's definitely part of fiddy riding.

What do you think of Valentino Rossi? He isn't a MSF graduate.

[Amorok]

Yeah, it's a requirement to ride on base, so it's offered for free on base, I teach it for free but the military paid for me to get certified and any professional development seminars or other further training I get will be free for me. They really take the safety thing seriously, and so do I, that's why I got involved with it. The stuff I learned in the BRC and ERC has saved my life several times, and I'm pretty stoked that I can help other people out the same way.

[Trip]

Trip, what would you add to an MSF course to make it better? Did you take the BRC or the sport bike course? The BRC is not designed to teach you advanced techniques, it's designed to let you practice the basic physical and mental skills needed to move a motorcycle around safely. Ever studentthat graduates my course gets contact information to several riding groups in the area to help further their training, and sport bike riders get information about track days and why they need to go to one. I don't think the MSF is perfect by any means, but it's the best course of it's type out there. If you can think of ways for me to improve it by all means, let me know. And as for the money, I teach it for free and don't get paid, I don't have an opinion about pricing. But if you're in my area, and you bring your bike I'll put you through a course on my range if you want.

Look at Europe training courses, it's not the best course out there of it's kind. It doesn't even prepare you to ride properly on the street. It's a parking lot course. It needs more of everything, but most Americans are unwilling to devote that much time and money that would be necessary.

[RACER X]

Yeah, it's a requirement to ride on base, so it's offered for free on base, I teach it for free but the military paid for me to get certified and any professional development seminars or other further training I get will be free for me. They really take the safety thing seriously, and so do I, that's why I got involved with it. The stuff I learned in the BRC and ERC has saved my life several times, and I'm pretty stoked that I can help other people out the same way.

it was like $100 for course material and a week of vaction time.

thats commitment to the cause to give up weekends to teach for free.

It doesn't even prepare you to ride properly on the street. It's a parking lot course. It needs more of everything, but most Americans are unwilling to devote that much time and money that would be necessary.

did i mention i rode to class on sunday morn. , after having had the bike delivered to me sat. evening, and riding 100mi sat. night.

some people are ready after the class, some aren't.

and you are correct on part 2 of your comment. but i've also had foreign students (licensed in their home country) who wanted to get their license and were very impressed w/ the progress that students made over the course of the weekend.

[Trip]

did i mention i rode to class on sunday morn. , after having had the bike delivered to me sat. evening, and riding 100mi sat. night.

some people are ready after the class, some aren't.

So did you illegally ride? If you have never ridden a bike before and didn't have your license, you were basically riding around with no license and no experience since the first day doesn't really bring you that far along.

That's great advice when complaining about people teaching their friends and family....

[RACER X]

So did you illegally ride? If you have never ridden a bike before and didn't have your license, you were basically riding around with no license and no experience since the first day doesn't really bring you that far along.

That's great advice when complaining about people teaching their friends and family....

I'm sure places like Texas and Florida with their straight roads helps out too, negotiating tight and technical roads isn't an issue.

yup, rode illegal for the first week, till i took the DMV test sometime that week.

it is what it is.

or maybe it's a testament to how good the course material was, that taught me enough by end of day 1 to get around, i think i only stalled the bike 1x that night out.

generally by end day 1, starting, stopping, some basic cornering and emergancy braking are covered.

so when i got my bike sat. evening, my cousin who rides (cruisers vs my VFR800), came over, he test rode the bike, made sure it was alright. paid, then we went to deserted streets and practiced what i had learned from MSF for an hour or so, and took off riding. rode to class sun morn. and have been riding since.

and to set the record straight, i did ride my cousins cruiser around the grass, in a park for like 1 lap. hadn't ridden a motorized bike before that, not even dirtbikes or scooters. though i was riding/racing bicycles back then.

[Trip]

yup, rode illegal for the first week, till i took the DMV test sometime that week.

it is what it is.

or maybe it's a testament to how good the course material was, that taught me enough by end of day 1 to get around, i think i only stalled the bike 1x that night out.

generally by end day 1, starting, stopping, some basic cornering and emergancy braking are covered.

so when i got my bike sat. evening, my cousin who rides (cruisers vs my VFR800), came over, he test rode the bike, made sure it was alright. paid, then we went to deserted streets and practiced what i had learned from MSF for an hour or so, and took off riding. rode to class sun morn. and have been riding since.

and to set the record straight, i did ride my cousins cruiser around the grass, in a park for like 1 lap. hadn't ridden a motorized bike before that, not even dirtbikes or scooters. though i was riding/racing bicycles back then.

LOL and you are complaining about me wanting more in depth training and training with friends. Basically you just forfeited all your debate. Win for me. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... Nice to fuck up your arguments when you didn't even wait for the MSF to end, you got out there with your friends before you even finished the course. Thanks for admitting it.

[RACER X]

ok if you say so.

[Archren]

She has no aspirations to ride on the street. I have a little 100cc dirt bike she wants to try out. I'm certainly not enrolling her in a course. She very well may be one of those that has no business riding, hence my mentioning that in the OP...but I can tell she wishes she could conquer it.

Obviously, I would put her in full gear, and in a big grass field, with nothing to hit, for starters.

I was just wondering if anyone had any pointers for teaching the basics of controls, etc.

Gotcha. I think I'm tracking. Amorok made some good points (clutch/friction zone practice). I don't know how mechanically inclined she is, but a few times of letting her practice just the "routine" of getting the bike started will help, and work your way from there. Once she feels comfortable with a particular task, move on to the next, and then put it all together. Kinda like learning a new piece of music. You learn measure by measure, and then you put the measures together. But a sheet of music doesn't do you much good if you can't read the notes. Ok, I have no idea where I was going with that analogy, but I think I mean you may really have to break it down for her Barney style if she's as skittish as you make her sound. Once she feels confident with the small stuff, maybe it be easier for her to move on to the more complex things without as much chance of her freezing up if something goes awry.

You're much more patient person than I. While I learn things quickly, I have a hard time imparting that knowledge to others because once I learn something it's like it becomes intuitive/second nature to me... so when people don't "get it", I start to get frustrated. :lol: Good luck, hope it goes well. :D

[Amorok]

Look at Europe training courses, it's not the best course out there of it's kind. It doesn't even prepare you to ride properly on the street. It's a parking lot course. It needs more of everything, but most Americans are unwilling to devote that much time and money that would be necessary.

What specific European courses are you referring to? Is there a company or curriculum you can refer me to? Give me some referencesa and not only will I see whether it can be integrated into my course, I'll send it up to MSF.

As for it being a "parking lot" course, yes it is. Low speed practice is safer for beginners, and it's a proven fact that low-speed practice will improve higher-speed skill. The point of the BRC/ERC is not to teach someone how to roar down the twisties, wear out a trail on a dirt bike or destroy the track, the point is to teach someone how to get on their bike and ride to work or somewhere else. The point of MSF is to teach people how to ride safely in the most common situations such as commuting or a weekend cruise. If you want to go out and ride like a bat out of hell on a sport bike then MSF won't help you accomplish that. It doesn't mean the course doesn't meet anyone's needs, just that it doesn't meet your needs.

[Trip]

What specific European courses are you referring to? Is there a company or curriculum you can refer me to? Give me some referencesa and not only will I see whether it can be integrated into my course, I'll send it up to MSF.

As for it being a "parking lot" course, yes it is. Low speed practice is safer for beginners, and it's a proven fact that low-speed practice will improve higher-speed skill. The point of the BRC/ERC is not to teach someone how to roar down the twisties, wear out a trail on a dirt bike or destroy the track, the point is to teach someone how to get on their bike and ride to work or somewhere else. The point of MSF is to teach people how to ride safely in the most common situations such as commuting or a weekend cruise. If you want to go out and ride like a bat out of hell on a sport bike then MSF won't help you accomplish that. It doesn't mean the course doesn't meet anyone's needs, just that it doesn't meet your needs.

MSF won't go this far. It's a tiered system and they bring you off the parking lot. There is classroom and on road training out of the parking lot on the road. It's a lot longer and more involved. It's not like the USA, there isn't one accepted school. There are hundreds of them out there. Just search for some.

[Amorok]

OK, I understand your issue a little more now. But think of this - MSF is designed for a beginning rider with limited experience to be able to go to a class and get some instruction. MSF is a tiered system but we aren't taking you out on the road. I'm not sure what insurance is like in Europe but there isn't a way for me to get a course covered if I'm taking students who are assumed to have limited experience/skill out on the road. The point of MSF is to allow newbs to make their mistakes in a low-speed, traffic-free environment. If you took the course as an experienced rider you'd be one of the first I've known who didn't get anything out of the course, but it's possible that you're so good, that your skills are so advanced that the course has nothing to offer you. If that's the case then I can totally understand your hatred and disdain for a course that has helped thousands of less experienced riders learn and improve their skills. And I can totally understand how my personal safety, improving my skillset, and getting an insurance for the rest of my riding career is pales in comparison to a few hundred bucks. After all, it's much smarter to spend that few hundred bucks to buy gear to protect myself in case I go down rather than spend it on training that might help me not go down. And the phrase that some training is better than nothing? Totally not true, if it's not up to a certain standard then it's a waste of time.

Sorry for the flame, but the motorcycle safety program at out base gets almost no attention. Me and the one other instructor at Keesler kill ourselves teaching out in the heat and chill, get sunburns and headaches to help people be safer. All the while my supervisor bitches every time I go to teach, wondering why none of the other instructors on base can teach instead of me (cause I've never wondered that myself) hell, threatening to make me take leave to teach. I'm starting weekend classes every month this summer, all to try to make people a little safer. It pisses me off that the one thing I can do to help gets slammed by people who's opinion I respect. Probably should have avoided reading this thread.

[Trip]

MSF is not a tiered system. It's one class/one tier. The tiered system in Europe allows you to advance through the levels of bikes and progress.

There is no progression plan in the MSF. It's here's some basic shit, now go out into the world.

The euro training courses I am referring to, does go through the noob basics and you progress to actual street riding and further beyond that. It's a true progression of skill to the point where you are qualified to ride on the road safely without needing further training where as the average rider is not ready for the street right out of MSF.

Another reason for my dislike is the level of skill of the teachers that I experienced. I don't know the skill of racer x, but I am sure it is high level. That's not the case in my class. The ridercoaches I came in contact with, weren't high level riders. Yey, they can read from a book and give basic commands. Congrats, you deserve to teach people something you can barely do yourself... Sorry, if someone I care about is going to learn to ride, I want a teacher who actually has a sufficient amount of skill in the subject.

Knowing what I know now about the area and what the ridercoaches told us in class, it makes me laugh. They were the ones that actually believe and relayed the misinformation/rumors about deals gap and they did that in class.

[Dnyce]

has anyone taken the advanced course where u bring your own bike?

[Trip]

has anyone taken the advanced course where u bring your own bike?

It's pretty much the same exercises, but with your own bike.

[Rangerscott]

Can you bring your own bike to the regular msf?

[Trip]

Can you bring your own bike to the regular msf?

BRC - no, you can't ride it in the class
ERC - yes

[101lifts2]

MSF you have to
1) make a fig. 8 in a box.
a) demonstrate a swerve (after exiting the fig 8), w/ a specific speed
3) quick stop from a specific speed also downshifting from 2nd to 1st
4) make it thru 2 turns w/o going outside the lines at a specific speed, slow look press and roll and technique is critiqued.

thru the test, points are being taken off for "doing it wrong", putting your foot down in the box, taking to long to stop, crossing the lines in the corner.

only way to fail automatically is touch the bike down, crash or run over an inst.

Let me rephrase...the DMV test is harder because if you touch a foot down, you fail. In the MSF class, you can score a 16 outta 20 and still pass.

[101lifts2]

As previously said, since you seem to have a reading problem, if I don't really care I would send them to MSF.

I'm not sure why you are raking on the MSF so much. It really is a good starter class that teaches the basic principles of motorcycling and legal guidlines within your state, doing what it is designed to do. If you are comparing the MSF to tiered European classes, then you have have no comparisoin because that isn't what the MSF is about. It sounds like you are arguing Walmart sucks because it doesn't have the tire selection like that of the Tire Rack. It's not their core buisness to sell high end tires just as the MSF's core buisness isn't to produce track riders.

I took a Harley sponsored MSF course over 3 days in Michigan. It was very well taught and I learned alot. I then took a MI state run Advanced MSF course shortly after. Learned more there as well.

The course is a beginner course which teaches motorcycle operation. I'm not understanding what you are expecting of the class. The only real experience is to just go out and ride and ask some buddies on specific questions you may have. Most people don't have the patience nor the teaching technique to instruct a new rider. Also, when a bunch other people are new to riding, the person learning feels less pressured and more relaxed to learn IMO.

[Tsunami]

Avatard, can she ride a regular bicycle?

[101lifts2]

Yeah, it's a requirement to ride on base, so it's offered for free on base, I teach it for free but the military paid for me to get certified and any professional development seminars or other further training I get will be free for me. They really take the safety thing seriously, and so do I, that's why I got involved with it. The stuff I learned in the BRC and ERC has saved my life several times, and I'm pretty stoked that I can help other people out the same way.

You teach a sportbike specific training class? Are the speeds faster than the parking lot speeds?

[101lifts2]

LOL and you are complaining about me wanting more in depth training and training with friends. Basically you just forfeited all your debate. Win for me. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... Nice to fuck up your arguments when you didn't even wait for the MSF to end, you got out there with your friends before you even finished the course. Thanks for admitting it.

He said he practiced what HE LEARNED FROM THE MSF. No win.

[Avatard]

Avatard, can she ride a regular bicycle?

Yes, but not in a manner that inspires me to ride closely alongside ;)

[Tsunami]

Yes, but not in a manner that inspires me to ride closely alongside ;)

:lol

I think she should work on one skill at a time on separate days and have her stop for the day when she has done well and feeling good about it. That way she doesn't go home and stew about doing something wrong and get discouraged.

How are you teaching her about clutch control? Have her clutch out until she feels the bike move and clutch in again and like Amorok said, have her control it and walk with the bike. When she gets comfortable teach her how to use the brakes. Maybe front brake first before the rear (so she doesn't get confused and then both). Let her clutch out in first, ride straight away from stuff she can crash into and then clutch in and brake.

I wouldn't even teach her how to shift until she can get that done.

How does she feel about you teaching her to ride? Do you make her more nervous because she feels like she has to meet or exceed your expectations?

I know I learn better from people I am not related to. But mostly because they can't teach and they end up making me want to punch them. My mom tried teaching me how to drive once but gave no instructions other than turn the wheel. After we both wanted to kill each other after 5 minutes she sent me to driving school and I learned really quickly.

After MSF, my friend took me to the parking lot a couple of times and then on quiet neighborhoods. Then I moved back to NY and met my husband who tried to cram 15 years of riding experience at me at one time. I remember one of the first times we went out together he tried to teach me about lane positioning, at the stop sign, yelling through his helmet and when all I could think about was stopping and not tipping over. Talk about nerve wracking. It got to the point that I had to ride with other people (with him not around or in front where he couldn't see what I was doing) that I got more comfortable and I didn't get comfortable until we stopped riding together and I would go out alone.

[Rangerscott]

My ER-6N would make a great teaching bike. It's like you're sitting on a stool and the power delivery isn't, "my head is 6ft behind me."

[Trip]

He said he practiced what HE LEARNED FROM THE MSF. No win.

Yes win, he was out on the road illegaly with the help of his friends beyond what the MSF teaches before the course was even over. That's a win.

[azoomm]

This thread is why I want to develop a new class at the track....

[wildchild]

He followed me and sometimes that made me feel like I was being pushed. I preferred when he would lead, which was at a comfortable pace for me. He knew the limits and knew I wouldn't push mine.

The idea is it's better to have your partner behind you, usually at a bit of a distance, rather then some idiot in his toyota who thinks all bikers are asshats and deserve to be pushed when possible.

[Trip]

The idea is it's better to have your partner behind you, usually at a bit of a distance, rather then some idiot in his toyota who thinks all bikers are asshats and deserve to be pushed when possible.

plus people in front of you make you want to keep up with them.

[azoomm]

plus people in front of you make you want to keep up with them.

Right. And, you and I know it makes sense... because we have experience. But, I've found that women [especially] have problems with being "watched." They feel they are being critiqued at every move. It might make it a bit easier if you let them know WHY you ride behind them, and that you might be watching - but we usually forget what you did after riding 100ft :lol:

[Trip]

Right. And, you and I know it makes sense... because we have experience. But, I've found that women [especially] have problems with being "watched." They feel they are being critiqued at every move. It might make it a bit easier if you let them know WHY you ride behind them, and that you might be watching - but we usually forget what you did after riding 100ft :lol:

Good point

[RACER X]

BRC - no, you can't ride it in the class
ERC - yes

you can bring your own bike to BRC in TX but we don't recommend it.

and of course have to sign waivers and pass a quick tech inspection and be road legal w/ ins.

[Trip]

you can bring your own bike to BRC in TX but we don't recommend it.

and of course have to sign waivers and pass a quick tech inspection and be road legal w/ ins.

That's a nice improvement. I didn't have a bike yet when I took it, but that would of been a nice option.

[RACER X]

recent (as in last yr) brit transplant
seasoned rider/seasoned racer

posted today.

so I took my MSF course at San Jac Central, Pasadena over the weekend.
I can't recommend them highly enough,
great team of instructors and Rick the head honcho is one of the funniest guys you could ever meet.
Learnt a lot about slow speed bike control and was pretty shocked at how many bad habbits I'd picked up over the years!!

[askmrjesus]

recent (as in last yr) brit transplant
seasoned rider/seasoned racer

posted today.

Also from today:


I took my MSF course this weekend. It was awful. I went to the one in Richmond Texas, and my instructor was some fat dude named "Ed". He kept grabbing my ass, and whispering "start small" in my ear . It made me very uncomfortable.

JC

[Archren]

Also from today:




JC

:rofl:

[Trip]

hahhahahahahahhahaha, awesome

[Avatard]

:lmao:

[Cruzergirl]

....I'm taking the ERC on the 13th of May. Practice doing slow maneuvers can't ever be a bad thing. I'd like to try a track day next.

[Amorok]

MSF is not a tiered system. It's one class/one tier. The tiered system in Europe allows you to advance through the levels of bikes and progress.

There is no progression plan in the MSF. It's here's some basic shit, now go out into the world.[QUOTE]There is progression, the same as the classes you described in Europe. The BRC teaches basic motorcycle skills such as clutch control, braking, etc. The ERC teaches more advanced skills such as anticipating curves, moving atg a higher rate of speed. And the parking lot speeds? In the ERC they're moving at much slower tht road speeds but they get up to 25 in some excercies. Coincidentally, this is the speed limit for most of the base.

[QUOTE=Trip;365934]The euro training courses I am referring to, does go through the noob basics and you progress to actual street riding and further beyond that. It's a true progression of skill to the point where you are qualified to ride on the road safely without needing further training where as the average rider is not ready for the street right out of MSF.[QUOTE]I agree that more training is needed, you're not ready to race out of an MSF course. That's why I give my students information on riding groups and encourage them to come ride with us.

[QUOTE=Trip;365934]Another reason for my dislike is the level of skill of the teachers that I experienced. I don't know the skill of racer x, but I am sure it is high level. That's not the case in my class. The ridercoaches I came in contact with, weren't high level riders. Yey, they can read from a book and give basic commands. Congrats, you deserve to teach people something you can barely do yourself... Sorry, if someone I care about is going to learn to ride, I want a teacher who actually has a sufficient amount of skill in the subject.

Knowing what I know now about the area and what the ridercoaches told us in class, it makes me laugh. They were the ones that actually believe and relayed the misinformation/rumors about deals gap and they did that in class.
I can't speak for that, I don't know your instructors. I do know that I have to be able to perform the exercises I put the students through with a high level of accuracy, and I do my best. I try not to relay misinformation, but nobody's perfect man, not even those vaunted European instructors. Like I said, at the rally this year I'm going to try to put together part of one of the exercises we do, we'll see how it works out.

To answer some others, you can ride your own bike in our BRC/ERC. I encourage it actually, since you should familiarize yourself with what you're riding.

You can score 20 points or below in the course, but it isn't one point for everything. In the quick stop you get one point per foot over the standard for your time. In the swerve you'll get ten points assessed if you hit the obstacle, five for braking during the swerve. So the points are assessed differently depending on the severity of the consequences of what you did. The worse the consequences of that mistake in the real world, the higher the points assessed in the simulation.You can ride the first three test exercises fine, but three mistakes in the cornering exercise will fail you. Which makes sense, since a high percentage of motorcycle accidents involving serious injuries are during turns. Likewise, there are at least five exercises where turning is practices and three or so for swerving (don't have my cards with me) but only two for quick stops.

I don't teach the sport bike course yet, but when they start putting people through the cert course here I have a slot reserved, which means I'm in the market for a sport bike (don't tell Ulu!) There is an MSF street riding course that goes beyond the ERC, there's also a cruiser specific school as well as a dirt bike school. So I can put you through a BRC, an ERC, a sport bike or cruiser course, and a street riding course. How much more tiered do you want?

[Trip]

So I can put you through a BRC, an ERC, a sport bike or cruiser course, and a street riding course. How much more tiered do you want?

The ERC is a refresher of the BRC. I can't imagine how fucked up the sportbike class is going to be if MSF is doing it. We already have those and they are quite good in track day and racing schools. MSF needs to stay away from that shit, that's for damn sure.

Do they take you to the bar in the cruiser course....pfft.

It's not tiered. It's not even close to tiered, I don't think you even understand what a tiered system is, I suggest you research it.

I got a question, were you an instructor when you came to the rally last year?

[Tsunami]

This thread is why I want to develop a new class at the track....

OOh details! Will you provide bikes? I would totally fly in to take your class.

[racedoll]

Let me rephrase...the DMV test is harder because if you touch a foot down, you fail. In the MSF class, you can score a 16 outta 20 and still pass.

I put a foot down, got 5 points knocked off which allowed me to pass with a 95. It was the only thing I did wrong.

The idea is it's better to have your partner behind you, usually at a bit of a distance, rather then some idiot in his toyota who thinks all bikers are asshats and deserve to be pushed when possible.

I know why he did it, this and to watch me. But it is like azoomm says below about women not like being watched. This is me, plus Erik is known to make a person feel about "yeah big" even if unintentional.

plus people in front of you make you want to keep up with them.

I never felt like I needed to keep up but I'm probably one of the few. Erik would slow down if he saw me not "keeping up".

Right. And, you and I know it makes sense... because we have experience. But, I've found that women [especially] have problems with being "watched." They feel they are being critiqued at every move. It might make it a bit easier if you let them know WHY you ride behind them, and that you might be watching - but we usually forget what you did after riding 100ft :lol:

Exactly.

[Trip]

I never felt like I needed to keep up but I'm probably one of the few. Erik would slow down if he saw me not "keeping up".

That's the correct thing to do, ride your ride, unfortunately not everyone does that.

[RACER X]

Licenced since 1981,
My dad taught me to ride and licences were far easier to come by back then!
The UK system is far far more expensive, currently approx $750 around my area as I recall!
The UK system or DAS as its called involves students actually getting out onto the highways in small groups with an instructor so they have some experience of street riding before the licence is awarded.
Only the CBT (Compulsory Basic Training), basicaly cone work, is restricted to an off street area.

..

[Tsunami]

That's the correct thing to do, ride your ride, unfortunately not everyone does that.

And not everyone wants to slow down for newbies. Its hard to ride your own ride when everyone is zooming past you. I don't get why guys leave their newbie SO's behind.

When I used to ride with the ex husband he would ride painfully slow in front of me to make sure I don't ride over my head. And when our riding group got bigger, the more experience ones will get together for more "spirited" rides but the same ones would at times just want to take it easy as well as ones that just like riding slower in general which were newbie friendly rides. Everyone kept each other in view of their mirrors so no one gets left behind. Nothing sucks more than to have a newbie push themselves too hard trying to keep up so you have to wait around later on for an ambulance or a tow truck.

[askmrjesus]

It's hard to ride your own ride when everyone is zooming past you.

Why? Are you being sucked into a vortex?

I don't get why guys leave their newbie SO's behind.

It's because they suck.

When I used to ride with the ex husband he would ride painfully slow in front of me to make sure I don't ride over my head. And when our riding group got bigger, the more experience ones will get together for more "spirited" rides but the same ones would at times just want to take it easy as well as ones that just like riding slower in general which were newbie friendly rides. Everyone kept each other in view of their mirrors so no one gets left behind. Nothing sucks more than to have a newbie push themselves too hard trying to keep up so you have to wait around later on for an ambulance or a tow truck.

Please pardon me for saying this, but fuck all that.

It's not anyone's responsibility to keep you from riding over your head.

Personally, I'm not going to waste time looking in the mirror for you. I have more important things to concentrate on, in the forward spectrum of vision.

Like, trees and shit.

I'll wait for you at all the intersections so you don't get lost, but aside from that, I'm riding my bike, and you're riding yours.

JC