Plan B: Skip College

[EpyonXero]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/weekinreview/16steinberg.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

I agree 100%, we need more alternatives in this country.

Plan B: Skip College
By JACQUES STEINBERG
WHAT’S the key to success in the United States?

Short of becoming a reality TV star, the answer is rote and, some would argue, rather knee-jerk: Earn a college degree.

The idea that four years of higher education will translate into a better job, higher earnings and a happier life — a refrain sure to be repeated this month at graduation ceremonies across the country — has been pounded into the heads of schoolchildren, parents and educators. But there’s an underside to that conventional wisdom. Perhaps no more than half of those who began a four-year bachelor’s degree program in the fall of 2006 will get that degree within six years, according to the latest projections from the Department of Education. (The figures don’t include transfer students, who aren’t tracked.)

For college students who ranked among the bottom quarter of their high school classes, the numbers are even more stark: 80 percent will probably never get a bachelor’s degree or even a two-year associate’s degree.

That can be a lot of tuition to pay, without a degree to show for it.

A small but influential group of economists and educators is pushing another pathway: for some students, no college at all. It’s time, they say, to develop credible alternatives for students unlikely to be successful pursuing a higher degree, or who may not be ready to do so.

Whether everyone in college needs to be there is not a new question; the subject has been hashed out in books and dissertations for years. But the economic crisis has sharpened that focus, as financially struggling states cut aid to higher education.

Among those calling for such alternatives are the economists Richard K. Vedder of Ohio University and Robert I. Lerman of American University, the political scientist Charles Murray, and James E. Rosenbaum, an education professor at Northwestern. They would steer some students toward intensive, short-term vocational and career training, through expanded high school programs and corporate apprenticeships.

“It is true that we need more nanosurgeons than we did 10 to 15 years ago,” said Professor Vedder, founder of the Center for College Affordability and Productivity, a research nonprofit in Washington. “But the numbers are still relatively small compared to the numbers of nurses’ aides we’re going to need. We will need hundreds of thousands of them over the next decade.”

And much of their training, he added, might be feasible outside the college setting.

College degrees are simply not necessary for many jobs. Of the 30 jobs projected to grow at the fastest rate over the next decade in the United States, only seven typically require a bachelor’s degree, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Among the top 10 growing job categories, two require college degrees: accounting (a bachelor’s) and postsecondary teachers (a doctorate). But this growth is expected to be dwarfed by the need for registered nurses, home health aides, customer service representatives and store clerks. None of those jobs require a bachelor’s degree.

Professor Vedder likes to ask why 15 percent of mail carriers have bachelor’s degrees, according to a 1999 federal study.

“Some of them could have bought a house for what they spent on their education,” he said.

Professor Lerman, the American University economist, said some high school graduates would be better served by being taught how to behave and communicate in the workplace.

Such skills are ranked among the most desired — even ahead of educational attainment — in many surveys of employers. In one 2008 survey of more than 2,000 businesses in Washington State, employers said entry-level workers appeared to be most deficient in being able to “solve problems and make decisions,” “resolve conflict and negotiate,” “cooperate with others” and “listen actively.”

Yet despite the need, vocational programs, which might teach such skills, have been one casualty in the push for national education standards, which has been focused on preparing students for college.

While some educators propose a radical renovation of the community college system to teach work readiness, Professor Lerman advocates a significant national investment by government and employers in on-the-job apprenticeship training. He spoke with admiration, for example, about a program in the CVS pharmacy chain in which aspiring pharmacists’ assistants work as apprentices in hundreds of stores, with many going on to study to become full-fledged pharmacists themselves.

“The health field is an obvious case where the manpower situation is less than ideal,” he said. “I would try to work with some of the major employers to develop these kinds of programs to yield mastery in jobs that do demand high expertise.”

While no country has a perfect model for such programs, Professor Lerman pointed to a modest study of a German effort done last summer by an intern from that country. She found that of those who passed the Abitur, the exam that allows some Germans to attend college for almost no tuition, 40 percent chose to go into apprenticeships in trades, accounting, sales management, and computers.

“Some of the people coming out of those apprenticeships are in more demand than college graduates,” he said, “because they’ve actually managed things in the workplace.”

Still, by urging that some students be directed away from four-year colleges, academics like Professor Lerman are touching a third rail of the education system. At the very least, they could be accused of lowering expectations for some students. Some critics go further, suggesting that the approach amounts to educational redlining, since many of the students who drop out of college are black or non-white Hispanics.

Peggy Williams, a counselor at a high school in suburban New York City with a student body that is mostly black or Hispanic, understands the argument for erring on the side of pushing more students toward college.

“If we’re telling kids, ‘You can’t cut the mustard, you shouldn’t go to college or university,’ then we’re shortchanging them from experiencing an environment in which they might grow,” she said.

But Ms. Williams said she would be more willing to counsel some students away from the precollege track if her school, Mount Vernon High School, had a better vocational education alternative. Over the last decade, she said, courses in culinary arts, nursing, dentistry and heating and ventilation system repair were eliminated. Perhaps 1 percent of this year’s graduates will complete a concentration in vocational courses, she said, compared with 40 percent a decade ago.

There is another rejoinder to the case against college: People with college and graduate degrees generally earn more than those without them, and face lower risks of unemployment, according to figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Even those who experience a few years of college earn more money, on average, with less risk of unemployment, than those who merely graduate from high school, said Morton Schapiro, an economist who is the president of Northwestern University.

“You get some return even if you don’t get the sheepskin,” Mr. Schapiro said.

He warned against overlooking the intangible benefits of a college experience — even an incomplete experience — for those who might not apply what they learned directly to their chosen work.

“It’s not just about the economic return,” he said. “Some college, whether you complete it or not, contributes to aesthetic appreciation, better health and better voting behavior.”

Nonetheless, Professor Rosenbaum said, high school counselors and teachers are not doing enough to alert students unlikely to earn a college degree to the perilous road ahead.

“I’m not saying don’t get the B.A,” he said. “I’m saying, let’s get them some intervening credentials, some intervening milestones. Then, if they want to go further in their education, they can.”

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: May 17, 2010


An earlier version of this article misspelled Morton Schapiro's last name as Shapiro on the second reference.

[Particle Man]

I 'used' my college degree (ie was in a profession for which the little piece of paper says "This is what you do") for 2 years. Since then, I use probably 1% of what I learned in college for work. The little piece of paper has allowed me to climb the ladder, however.

[tommymac]

I 'used' my college degree (ie was in a profession for which the little piece of paper says "This is what you do") for 2 years. Since then, I use probably 1% of what I learned in college for work. The little piece of paper has allowed me to climb the ladder, however.

I never understood some of that stuff, its like you need a degree in something and we will hire you. Obviously in my case I use 100% of what I learned in school to do my job so I guess all of them should be that way.

Then again my bro in law has a degree in communications (we all laughed at him for that) and now he has worked as a pharmaceutical rep and now is working for his second oncology company.

[Particle Man]

I never understood some of that stuff, its like you need a degree in something and we will hire you.

Totally. And it can be anything.

[Homeslice]

Most people would be better off serving in the military before college.

[Kaneman]

I did one better....skipped the end of High School and college altogether. :lol:

[jtemple]

Most people would be better off serving in the military before college.That's what I did and I'll have to agree with you.

I'm only using about 50% of my degree (Computer Engineer working in software development), but my degree gives me some pretty good flexibility in the engineering field.

[Cutty72]

That's what I hate, to get a decent (read not entry level) job, you need a 4 year degree (many of which take 5+ to get)
I have worked in many fields and have a wide variety of experiences, including military, and yet get turned down for many jobs because I do not have that piece of paper.
There have even been jobs that the ad said required a 4 year degree, but it did not have to relate to the job field! WTF!! So if I have a 4 yr in underwater basket weaving, it qualifies me to be a construction engineer?

[Avatard]

I did one better....skipped the end of High School and college altogether. :lol:

Howdy brother.

[Captain Morgan]

Most people would be better off serving in the military before college.

Ditto. I wasn't ready for school yet, wasn't mature enough. Military changed that.

[tommymac]

Ditto. I wasn't ready for school yet, wasn't mature enough. Military changed that.

Prolly could have used it out of HS, took me a couple of years to get my shit together too.

[OneSickPsycho]

I 'used' my college degree (ie was in a profession for which the little piece of paper says "This is what you do") for 2 years. Since then, I use probably 1% of what I learned in college for work. The little piece of paper has allowed me to climb the ladder, however.

Same here... I am just now using my 2nd degree, but not really. It 'qualified' me for the position... frankly, my previous job and my high school computer technology class taught me more of what I use on a daily basis than either of my degrees.

I'd like to see high school vocational programs gain more steam... Plumbers, auto mechanics, etc... are skilled trades that can offer a kid a much better option than college.

[pauldun170]

So for those who might find value in attaining knowledge covering a broad array of subjects to broaden their horizons...go to college. Some of my favorite classes were the ones that had nothing to do with my major or job.

For those who just want a job prep course, go find a "vocational training facility" or a college that offers a program that is very specific at sticking to the typical fields covered by the major in question.

I can understand how some would see information that has nothing to do with helping them make money at work as "useless". I don't respect it nor would I want any of my children to take that adopt such an attitude, but I understand why some would choose to take that position. Common with the youngins.

[the chi]

I didnt not go to college, but thankfully have had the luck to get job positions (that are typically held by graduates) and have proven myself with my experience and skills alone. I plan to go back to school but havent gotten around to it yet.

This statement in the article i agree with wholeheartedly:

Professor Lerman, the American University economist, said some high school graduates would be better served by being taught how to behave and communicate in the workplace.

Dealing with the college students in my current profession makes me wonder daily what these idiots are learning when they have no social skills, no ability to function without mommy or daddy pulling the strings. These kids dont even know how to write a check! And working with them? Dear gawd. They have no social grace, they cant carry on a conversation with a coworker or client, no phone skills, they dont even have the sense to call in sick, instead opting to just not show up and then wonder why they got fired.

[tommymac]

I didnt not go to college, but thankfully have had the luck to get job positions (that are typically held by graduates) and have proven myself with my experience and skills alone. I plan to go back to school but havent gotten around to it yet.

This statement in the article i agree with wholeheartedly:



Dealing with the college students in my current profession makes me wonder daily what these idiots are learning when they have no social skills, no ability to function without mommy or daddy pulling the strings. These kids dont even know how to write a check! And working with them? Dear gawd. They have no social grace, they cant carry on a conversation with a coworker or client, no phone skills, they dont even have the sense to call in sick, instead opting to just not show up and then wonder why they got fired.


Interesting you say that, a friend of mine is a junior in the PA program I graduated from. She says on a whole its a young class so most of them havent had real jobs or real world expierences yet. So there already has been a lot of drama/problems with some of them, and its worse with the senior class. been hearing from preceptors about issues of professionalism among a few of them. I worked a shift with one of them, I told him a few things on how to handle himself but he didnt need my advice apparently. safe to say he got a real shitty eval.

[the chi]

It's standard. These kids think they can do whatever they want, talk to people in whatever manner they choose and they still expect to get good reviews. In my last 3 jobs I have had to train two persons completely on their interpersonal skills. As in, "we dont answer the phone with "yeah". We dont end phone calls with "whatever", and no matter how much we want to punch somone in the fae, we refrain. The not calling in sick thing really kills me tho. On what planet is it okay to just disappear? They have no sense of responsiblity or thoughts towards other people. As in, you dont show up, you just screwed your teammate. They just dont care.

Not only that, but no one has taught these kids how to dress either. How about an interviewee showing up in ratty torn jeans and a tank top for a professional municipal city position? Or showing up to work in an outfit like that.

*sigh* I am throwing away my soapbox. It drives me too nuts to even contemplate.

[OneSickPsycho]

It's standard. These kids think they can do whatever they want, talk to people in whatever manner they choose and they still expect to get good reviews. In my last 3 jobs I have had to train two persons completely on their interpersonal skills. As in, "we dont answer the phone with "yeah". We dont end phone calls with "whatever", and no matter how much we want to punch somone in the fae, we refrain. The not calling in sick thing really kills me tho. On what planet is it okay to just disappear? They have no sense of responsiblity or thoughts towards other people. As in, you dont show up, you just screwed your teammate. They just dont care.

Not only that, but no one has taught these kids how to dress either. How about an interviewee showing up in ratty torn jeans and a tank top for a professional municipal city position? Or showing up to work in an outfit like that.

*sigh* I am throwing away my soapbox. It drives me too nuts to even contemplate.

Work at a call center... it's not just kids... it's adults too... It's fucking SCARY. However, when someone comes in with the right mindset, discipline, and work ethic... especially a young one... it makes you appreciate that person much, much more.

There is one benefit to all of this... it just makes you and I all that much more marketable.

[sherri_chickie]

My first degree was utterly useless. But it did allow me to get a teaching job overseas, which made me realize that I did want to be a teacher back home. I came home and took an B. Ed afterwards. So in a way, my first ( psych) degree did lead to my current career where I do use my education and the degree.

I totally agree with you about people entering the work force today. At the previous school I worked for T.A's would not bother to show up and not call in. On what planet is that professionalism? The worse part is that it was accepted!!! If I had been the principal people would have been fired right left and centre there!

[Smittie61984]

I go to a tech school and have many people in my classes with bachelor degrees. A lot of them have useless degrees such as sociology, education, or an art degree. Now they are going for an associates in some kind of medical field.

On the High School level I think a GED actually looks better than a HS diploma. You actually have to try for a GED.

[Dave]

Most people would be better off serving in the military before college.

Now if we could finish of those pesky wars I might get to school this decade :lol:

[pauldun170]

On the High School level I think a GED actually looks better than a HS diploma. You actually have to try for a GED.

GED means you couldn't cut it in high school.
Ya might not wanna go flashing yur GED around a real job

[Smittie61984]

GED means you couldn't cut it in high school.
Ya might not wanna go flashing yur GED around a real job

GED means you didn't attend high school and tried later. HS diploma means you showed up. It was also meant to be sarcastic because our government education system is fucked up and a HS diploma means shit now.

[pauldun170]

GED means you didn't attend high school and tried later. HS diploma means you showed up. It was also meant to be sarcastic because our government education system is fucked up and a HS diploma means shit now.

Maybe your Government Education system sucks.
Not mine..

GED is still FTL round here.

[pauldun170]

Actually...I wouldn't know.
A lot has changed since I graduated high school.

[Homeslice]

GED was always considered the stoner/burnout route in my day.......

These days it's evolved into something different, like maybe someone had a child and needed to drop out of HS, or they decided to join the NBA, or do volunteer work overseas....

As to whether a HS diploma is better or worse than a GED, that would depend on the school system I guess. Some are better uses of time than others.

[Avatard]

My kid quit HS and took the GED test and passed a year early. She was just so far ahead of the school system here, that they were just holding her back.

[Tsunami]

“It is true that we need more nanosurgeons than we did 10 to 15 years ago,” said Professor Vedder, founder of the Center for College Affordability and Productivity, a research nonprofit in Washington. “But the numbers are still relatively small compared to the numbers of nurses’ aides we’re going to need. We will need hundreds of thousands of them over the next decade.”

Among the top 10 growing job categories, two require college degrees: accounting (a bachelor’s) and postsecondary teachers (a doctorate). But this growth is expected to be dwarfed by the need for registered nurses, home health aides, customer service representatives and store clerks. None of those jobs require a bachelor’s degree.


Though I agree a college degree isn't necessary to get a job...what is up with these 2 statements?

I'll take the college degree and become a surgeon...I can't afford to live off a nurse's aid's salary. They make like $10 here and not only wipe up shit but have to take a lot of shit....

Sure there are growing fields that don't require a degree, but for the jobs mentioned above, I rather get a degree and make more money. I am not going to forgo schooling to be a store clerk for the rest of my life. And you need a bachelors in nursing to get hired these days...

[pdog]

People get college degrees so they DON'T have to become a CSR or a store clerk. Those jobs suck.

[Homeslice]

Though I agree a college degree isn't necessary to get a job...what is up with these 2 statements?

I'll take the college degree and become a surgeon...I can't afford to live off a nurse's aid's salary. They make like $10 here and not only wipe up shit but have to take a lot of shit....

Sure there are growing fields that don't require a degree, but for the jobs mentioned above, I rather get a degree and make more money. I am not going to forgo schooling to be a store clerk for the rest of my life. And you need a bachelors in nursing to get hired these days...

I didn't even know you could become an RN without a Bachelor's :?:

[EpyonXero]

Though I agree a college degree isn't necessary to get a job...what is up with these 2 statements?

I'll take the college degree and become a surgeon...I can't afford to live off a nurse's aid's salary. They make like $10 here and not only wipe up shit but have to take a lot of shit....

Sure there are growing fields that don't require a degree, but for the jobs mentioned above, I rather get a degree and make more money. I am not going to forgo schooling to be a store clerk for the rest of my life. And you need a bachelors in nursing to get hired these days...

Thats a whole other topic, paying people a living wage to do the jobs we need them to.

[Fleck750]

If everyone aims for a degree, who's left to maintain the infrastructure of society?

Someone has to build, electrify, water and maintain that hospital so a few high paid doctors can screw with peoples health.

And the million dollar homes you aspire to live in? Someone has to dig the sewage, build the roads, plant the light poles that we all have grown accustom to.

I would be much prouder of my son for taking on a career that builds things over sitting on his ass all day making a $100k.

[pdog]

You should read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

If everyone aims for a degree, who's left to maintain the infrastructure of society?

[Fleck750]

You should read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demandAnd as there becomes fewer people that can do labor jobs, their pay shall also rise.

There are 100's of thousands of college educated people in this recession that have lost their jobs, homes and most of their savings. I know very few electricians that this has happened to. :p

[pauldun170]

If everyone aims for a degree, who's left to maintain the infrastructure of society?

Someone has to build, electrify, water and maintain that hospital so a few high paid doctors can screw with peoples health.

And the million dollar homes you aspire to live in? Someone has to dig the sewage, build the roads, plant the light poles that we all have grown accustom to.

I would be much prouder of my son for taking on a career that builds things over sitting on his ass all day making a $100k.


I would be even prouder if my son gets the 100K job telling your son what to do and how to do it.

If everyone aims for a degree, who's left to maintain the infrastructure of society?



Robots.

[Kaneman]

If everyone aims for a degree, who's left to maintain the infrastructure of society?

Someone has to build, electrify, water and maintain that hospital so a few high paid doctors can screw with peoples health.

And the million dollar homes you aspire to live in? Someone has to dig the sewage, build the roads, plant the light poles that we all have grown accustom to.

I would be much prouder of my son for taking on a career that builds things over sitting on his ass all day making a $100k.

Right on!! Its too bad that some of those who do opt for higher education instead honestly believe they are so much better than a good worker.

To me its kinda like when I see people shitting on servers and fast food workers, yet they still go out to eat.

[pauldun170]

There is nothing wrong with taking a low end job as long as you are happy living the lifestyle that the career choice can provide for.

Some people are quite content living with just the basics and there is honor in living a simple uncomplicated lifestyle.

[Kaneman]

There is nothing wrong with taking a low end job as long as you are happy living the lifestyle that the career choice can provide for.

Some people are quite content living with just the basics and there is honor in living a simple uncomplicated lifestyle.

Right on, right on. But when you say "low-end" do you mean low paying or just any job you can get without college. Men with trades can do very well.

[pauldun170]

Right on, right on. But when you say "low-end" do you mean low paying or just any job you can get without college. Men with trades can do very well.

low paying

[EpyonXero]

[QUOTE=Fleck750;374421]If everyone aims for a degree, who's left to maintain the infrastructure of society?

QUOTE]

The illegal immigrants who were are trying to run out of the country. Meanwhile the guys with socialogy degrees are on unemployment or living with their parents because they are above it or dont have the skills.

[Smittie61984]

Someone has to build, electrify, water and maintain that hospital so a few high paid doctors can screw with peoples health.

And the million dollar homes you aspire to live in? Someone has to dig the sewage, build the roads, plant the light poles that we all have grown accustom to.


A lot of times those people who dig the ditches, maintain eletricity, mow the lawns, etc make more than the doctors in the place or have the potential to.

I remember seeing a statistic that showed the most common vehicle driven by millionares is the F150 (the most common work truck). Infact I think it'd be safe to say that most millionares probably don't have a college degree (if even a HS diploma).

Then you have Union workers.

[Cruzergirl]

I know very few electricians that this has happened to. :p

Then they don't live in NW Florida. Everyone is hurting here.

:(

[pauldun170]

A lot of times those people who dig the ditches, maintain eletricity, mow the lawns, etc make more than the doctors in the place or have the potential to.

I remember seeing a statistic that showed the most common vehicle driven by millionares is the F150 (the most common work truck). Infact I think it'd be safe to say that most millionares probably don't have a college degree (if even a HS diploma).

Then you have Union workers.

I'd like to see those stats

Off the top of my head
Small business owner.
He owns the truck, his workers drive it.

[Homeslice]

Meanwhile the guys with socialogy degrees are on unemployment or living with their parents because they are above it or dont have the skills.

No those people take jobs at Barnes & Noble.

[Smittie61984]

I'd like to see those stats

Off the top of my head
Small business owner.
He owns the truck, his workers drive it.

The small business owner started somewhere. He didn't wake up and then send a crew out with a $10k lawmower or a $50,000 directional bore machine. Then look at the farmers out there who have a $500,000 tractor.

Usually those people paid their dues by being a worthless $8 an hour labor workers who learned the trade and got their own equipment and started work themselves to work themselves up to millionares.

Most college graduates (Bachelor or above) I know don't break above $60k (closest one is a mechanical engineer at 58k). I know a rad tech who was started at $60k with an associates degree.

The point being is if you want to be a milllionare the best way to get there is probably not a college route.

[EpyonXero]

Every small business I worked for was owned by a wealthy person who started the company with money from his parents or his wifes parents.

[Kaneman]

Every small business I worked for was owned by a wealthy person who started the company with money from his parents or his wifes parents.

So true. The whole American dream of building a business from the ground up and rising from the roots of near-poverty to being a successful business owner are largely bullshit. In fact, your chances of making it are probably about the same as winning the lotto.

It takes money to make money.

[shmike]

So true. The whole American dream of building a business from the ground up and rising from the roots of near-poverty to being a successful business owner are largely bullshit. In fact, your chances of making it are probably about the same as winning the lotto.

It takes money to make money.


I'm not sure that it takes money to make money but I do believe that there is a "money mentality" that people get locked into. Many of the poorer people will remain poor because that is how they were programmed.

I know several business owners that came from middle to upper class families that went to college and started their careers after graduation.

The first three I can think of "did it on their own". They didn't borrow money from their parents. However, they came from families with a solid financial background. They knew how to handle money. They worked hard and kept overhead low. They started at 0 (not in debt). They EXPECTED themselves to be sucessful because they came from success.

On the other hand, I have personally seen a business owner go from near poverty to a seven figure income. He went from working by himself in one truck to a big office and a fleet of trucks on the road. It actually came pretty easy. He's broke now. One big contract failed and the business crumbled.

His business, yacht, RV, multiple houses were all financed. Once the cash flow stopped, the lifestyle was over. He had a poor man's mentality and over a million a year in income couldn't break that.

:idk:

[pauldun170]

So true. The whole American dream of building a business from the ground up and rising from the roots of near-poverty to being a successful business owner are largely bullshit. In fact, your chances of making it are probably about the same as winning the lotto.

It takes money to make money.

(off the top of my head)
It takes talent and knowledge to get others to invest in your idea.
It requires planning and dedication to turn that idea into a successful business.
It takes knowledge to keep that business running smoothly.
It takes creativity, knowledge and dedication to make it grow.


Just thinking about all the folks I've known throughout the years who got into the "be my own boss" bandwagon (a nice wagon to be in if you can do it)

Folks under the age of 35 with just a high school education who tried to start a business.
% of who had a business plan - 0
% Who currently have a successful business - 0
% Who could tell me about the market they were trying to break into - 1

Folks with 2yrs or more education
% of who had a business plan - 80
% Who currently have a successful business - 60
% Who could tell me about the market they were trying to break into - 70

[pauldun170]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36335626/ns/business-small_business/

[Smittie61984]

So true. The whole American dream of building a business from the ground up and rising from the roots of near-poverty to being a successful business owner are largely bullshit. In fact, your chances of making it are probably about the same as winning the lotto.

It takes money to make money.

Then they suck.

My GF's grandpa started his own company and was an immigrant from Greece with no money (and didn't speak any English). Now he owns a company that is worth more than $100million. I know an ambulance owner who also started with nothing and he is worth well over 100mil. I believe the founders of home depot started with nothing or very little. A firefighter friend of mine started a pressure washing business and by himself brings in $250k a year. Same for an asshole landscaper I worked for who made $500k and his dad beat him for fun (his mom died giving birth)

A lot of succesful businesses I know of started with nothing. The difference is unlike you, me, and billions of others, they had the initiative to work hard and never give up and it is why they are wealthy now.

Yes, I know you have the Paris Hiltons of the world but over all people who are wealthy are wealthy because they stived for it.