Gas sucks

[upshift]

Thread title says it all. I paid $50 for a 16 gallon tank of gas yesterday. :rant: I cant wait till I am able to ride the bike around.

[DLIT]

Something needs to happen about this bullshit. People need to die.

[M1$3|2]

Fuck, I paid 55 for 14 gallons in Louisville, KY. I need to bring my bike up here.

[PiZdETS]

Yep, paid 55 bucks for a full tank in the truck, usually costs low 40's. :panic:
I'm seriously considering a euro spec diesel engine swap. It's an 89 toyota pickup and in euroland they had the hilux diesel engine which is supposedly even more bulletproof than the gas powered 22r ones we got here.
If I get diesel I can start hitting up local restaurants for used deep fryer oil and using that as fuel.

Driving around for free smelling like chinese food would be baller as fuck. :drool:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GOFbsaNeZps&feature=related

[OTB]

My Sprinter has a 25 gallon tank; Diesel is 4.62/ gallon here. .....smidge over $100 to fill up....

Now, I do get around 30mpg......but still......

You do have to process the oil, (free up some hydrogen by removing the glycol molecules; you need a processor and some chemicals, including ethanol) so it isn't "free", but at the price of diesel, it is getting advantagous to do so. Also, switching from diesel to biodiesel can cause some problems with coking, plugging filters, ect, so blends of biodiesel and diesel are recommended.

[itgirl]

Something needs to happen about this bullshit. People need to die.

amen!!

[OTB]

amen!!

Actually, we need to stop letting the eco-crazies dictate energy policy; drill Anwar, the Gulf, and start putting up Nuc Electric Power, and expand or refineries (haven't built one in the US in 35 YEARS due to the eco-nuts).

Increase supply and you automatically drop the price.....simple economics...

[Audiomechanic]

Actually, we need to stop letting the eco-crazies dictate energy policy; drill Anwar, the Gulf, and start putting up Nuc Electric Power, and expand or refineries (haven't built one in the US in 35 YEARS due to the eco-nuts).

Increase supply and you automatically drop the price.....simple economics...

Exactly. Kill the eco-crazies like DLIT said. Their bodies are biodegradable and will help the environment. :sniper:

[Dnyce]

Exactly. Kill the eco-crazies like DLIT said. Their bodies are biodegradable and will help the environment. :sniper:


kill em, use em as fertilizer to boost plant growth-get some more photosynthesis jumpin off, clean the air-tell theyre gonna die saving the world and they mite just kill themselves, saving us the trouble lol

[OTB]

kill em, use em as fertilizer to boost plant growth-get some more photosynthesis jumpin off, clean the air-tell theyre gonna die saving the world and they mite just kill themselves, saving us the trouble lol

Soylent Green:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

[Dnyce]

Soylent Green:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

sonuva bitch-i thought i was halfway original with that idea. fuckin old conspiracy theory hippies makin movies lol

its really funny that shit is set in 2022-and its based on a book thats set in 1999.

i wana see that movie now

[upshift]

My Sprinter has a 25 gallon tank; Diesel is 4.62/ gallon here. .....smidge over $100 to fill up....

Now, I do get around 30mpg......but still......

You do have to process the oil, (free up some hydrogen by removing the glycol molecules; you need a processor and some chemicals, including ethanol) so it isn't "free", but at the price of diesel, it is getting advantagous to do so. Also, switching from diesel to biodiesel can cause some problems with coking, plugging filters, ect, so blends of biodiesel and diesel are recommended.

I remember seeing some guy on TV a long time ago that converted his car into a biodiesel car. I think he said it cost him under a dollar to make it and he had huge tanks of it brewing in his garage. So yeah its not technically free but I think he said at the rate he made it he was in the 20cent/gallon range or some where around that. Another thing I think would be awesome to do is what the Mythbusters did. They took some cow manure and made a digester and used the methane given off to power a lawnmower and it actually worked. If we could somehow harness that we could use that for literally pennies per gallon.

Also I remember talking to a guy that said he heard that the only reason gas prices are like they are is because gas companies are fighting over the top rung on the industry ladder. Money is their only concern and they know we will pay $4+ per gallon because we need to. Dam oil compaines and their rich asses.

[OTB]

Also I remember talking to a guy that said he heard that the only reason gas prices are like they are is because gas companies are fighting over the top rung on the industry ladder. Money is their only concern and they know we will pay $4+ per gallon because we need to. Dam oil compaines and their rich asses.


Sometimes, you should not believe everything you hear.

The reasons that prices are as high as they are as follows:

Opec has curtailed production with the direct result of high prices per barrel.

The US Govt has restricted opening new fields (like Anwar and the Gulf Of Mexico), restricting domestic supply.

The demand for oil has increased fourfold in the last ten years for "developing" countries like China, India and the far east.

The lack of new refining production due to EPA restrictions.



I own a number of shares of several major oil companies, as well as some shares of oil wells. My dividends have not gone up. As a matter of fact, as a percentage of gross, they have actually decreased. If an average business got a lousy BT ROE of 8% like the major oil companies, they would get out of the business and go do something else.

WHO ARE THE OIL COMPANIES?

If you have a retirement program, belong to a union pension fund, own ANY mutual fund, well, then YOU are the oil company. That is who owns the majority of oil stock in this country.

Guess that make YOU and me the greedy bastages ,eh?

.

Money is their only concern and they know we will pay $4+ per gallon because we need to. Dam oil compaines and their rich asses.



Fact of the matter is, demand for gas is not inelastic (remember Intro to Economics?) fuel demand and consumption in the US is DROPPING, in direct response to higher prices.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0849549820080226

Dropping demand means lower sales, lower sales means LOWER profit.....

[upshift]

Yeah I hear alot of stuff where I work :lol: I had no idea if it was true but I was just going based on what I've heard through the grape vine. Guess its not really all cutthroat like I've heard. Nonetheless we still need to find a better/cheaper alternative than petroleum.

[OTB]

Yeah I hear alot of stuff where I work :lol: I had no idea if it was true but I was just going based on what I've heard through the grape vine. Guess its not really all cutthroat like I've heard. Nonetheless we still need to find a better/cheaper alternative than petroleum.

Opinions are like buttholes....everybody has one and most of them stink...:yes:

In the case of these things, like pricing, energy, economics and ecology; you need to look at the basis for what is it you are really talking about. WHO OWNS WHAT? WHO benefits from a given policy? In the case of publicly held companies, it is the SHAREHOLDERS who benefit (Them being you and me) .

In the case of a catastrophe like Enron, the shareholders(a lot of which were employees) got buffaloed by dishonest management (whom the shareholders hired, then didn't watch over) and everybody lost.

[NONE_too_SOFT]

how high do gas prices have to get before we actually see any change? at 4/gallon people still only seem miffed. Problem with prices rising slowly is that by the time we get used to the high price, they just raise it a little bit more. Its like we've been taking one step forward and two steps back for the last 5 years.

[OTB]

how high do gas prices have to get before we actually see any change? .


What kind of change? We've already seen a drop in demand.

If you are talking about how and how much Americans drive, you are looking at major cultural, geographic and infrastructure issues. In Europe, where gas is traditionally nearly double what we pay here (the difference is taxes; the cost of production in Europe is the same as here) you have always seen smaller, highly fuel efficient, space efficient cars with the emphasis on public transportation and an efficient inter-city rail system. Many of the countries in Europe are smaller than most US states and some states (like Alaska and Texas) are as large as all of Europe. Tell me you want to drive from Akron to
Miami in THIS $13,000 POS with two of your buddies:

http://blogs.cars.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/27/smart42500.jpg

or, you could always take AMTRAK..................NOT!

Like I said, we have geographical issues that the Europeans do not, we have a history of driving what we drive, and we have infrastructure in most cities and almost all intra-city situations, (with the exception of the Boston-Washington corridor) that supports individual transportation, rather that mass transit....... But we voted for it. Highway funding has always outstripped mass-transit. We've always wanted it that way. Now it's going to take years to get caught up.

You don't take a behemouth like the US and do an about-face overnight. We're talking DECADES of change.

[NONE_too_SOFT]

Im talking about more of a change in mentality. Yes we drive less because of the high prices, but isnt that kind of like putting a bandaide on a gunshot wound?

All the public really does about the high prices is bitch and moan. I was speaking more along the lines of when is it going to cost SO much that our political views change? when are we going to start rationalizing drilling in our well known oil reserves in various regions of our country.

I dont plan on driving any sort of hybrid any time soon, nor do i plan on driving an uncomfortable 2 seater like you showed, so you're dead on in that respect. but i do drive a smaller car with above average gas milage, and when i can i ride my bike, which has slightly better gas mileage (when im not riding agressively)

Yes people are opting to drive less. No cross country road trips, no sunday drives, no taking two cars to the family reunion, etc etc. But the majority of our driving is not leisure, i would think. The daily commute from suburbia and rural areas to our metropolitan areas, the trips to the grocery store, taking the kids to soccer practice, etc etc are things that most people dont consider themselves able to give up. These people are typically those with a greater disposable income, and simply do not NEED to cease thier driving paterns.

Unfortunatly in my area there is only the mentality that theres one choice, drive or dont drive. The public transportation on my area is used only by the lowest income bracket, there is no car-pool incentive, and the mentality that every family needs to own an SUV or a Minivan is as prevalant as always.

[OTB]

Now you enter the political arena, and to answer your question, "Likely not soon."

We have three presidential candidates; none of them are talking about opening up new reserves, drilling in Anwar (or anywhere else). We have all three of these goofs who all subscribe to the "global carbon credits" fraud (the bloody "Kyoto Protocols"), which is gauranteed to drive prices in to the $6-8.00 range in the SHORT term, let alone the damage it will do to the remaining manufacturing and energy production in this country.

We (the voting public) seem bent on economic suicide.

And we have a supposedly conservative lame duck president who, by putting the bloody polar bear on the Endangered Species list, has virtually guaranteed Anwar will not be developed anytime in the near future.

I think things are going to get much worse.

[NONE_too_SOFT]

The politics surrounding this subject are frightfully scarce. The most face time any idea concerning gas prices has gotten was the silly "gas tax holiday".

you are right though, its only a matter of time before not only our gas prices rise, but our entire economy will begin to falter. after all pretty much all of our industry is run on fuel we need to buy from other countries, because we are so bent on hoarding our resources for the benefit of our bleeding hearts.

More and more of our money will be used to produce overseas, and our money will continue to depreciate.

Viva le revolution.

[Audiomechanic]

I think things are going to get much worse.

I agree and it scares the hell out of me.

Let me ask you, OTB, as I'm not an economist, just an average schmuck, what do you realistically expect to happen when/if things get much worse?

You are far more intelligent than I and have more years of wisdom than I. I really do want to know what's coming from anyone who has a realistic view.

[PiZdETS]

If they do a tax holiday (which is ludicrous and ineffective long-term) or prices drop significantly in the next few months, I might buy a large drum, mount it in the truckbed temporarily and spend a couple hundred, maybe a grand to have cheap gas for months at a time. I'd just keep the gas in my backyard, maybe dig a small trench for it. I'm sure that's completely safe and legal right?:whistle:

I've heard of gas theft skyrocketing, from pumps and from private cars- people bringing a hose and sucking that shit into their car.

It's gonna be like madmax pretty soon.:rockout:
http://g.photos.cx/madmax-f1.jpg

[OTB]

I agree and it scares the hell out of me.

Let me ask you, OTB, as I'm not an economist, just an average schmuck, what do you realistically expect to happen when/if things get much worse?

You are far more intelligent than I and have more years of wisdom than I. I really do want to know what's coming from anyone who has a realistic view.

I am not an economist. I am not even particularly smart. I do read a lot.

I don't have a crystal ball.

Energy prices effect the price of EVERYTHING; food ( from the price of fertilizer to the cost of harvest, to the cost of the machines used for harvest to the cost of transpoting that food to the cost of manufacturing and storing that food to the cost of delivering it to the store), ALL manufacturing of anything, transportation, chemicals, phamacueticals,....well, EVERTHING!!

So, if the COST PRODUCING and DELIVERING EVERYTHING goes up, while everything else (like productivity) stays the same; then PRICES WILL GO UP. And, if everything else (like wages) stay the same (and they will have to if there is no increase in productivity) then we will spend more money on EVERYTHING without an increase in income. So people (like you and me) will spend more on essentials (food, housing, utilities, basic transportation), and have less for descretionary items (entertainment, bikes, hobbies, vacations, ect.). So what will happen is a great big shake-out of the entertainment, toy (like motorcycles, atv's, boats, ect) hobbies and the hospitality, service and vacation industries (which employ HALF of all Americans)

You tell ME what you think the results will look like.

[upshift]

Shoot, the U.S. is going down the drain big time. I agree with what OTB is saying, once gas prices get way up you will see a HUGE influx in other items as well. Take the food industry for instance. I work in a grocery store so I see how gas affects that branch of the economy first hand. Ever since gas prices have gone up, I have noticed that there are a substantial amount of people who do not shop as often as they used to. According to my boss, the store income has decreased in the last few months which I believe is because of the high gas prices. And like OTB said, if the American people's income is not adjusted to account for this influx we may be looking at a future where the average person on a decent income is starting to struggle. We may even (God willing) get to a point where two wheels is accepted over four and less and less cars are on the road. Until hybrids and hydrogen/electric vehicles get cheaper that is. Even then, if the income situation isn't resolved, we may be looking at only the wealthy or above average people being able to afford to drive. :panic:

I am in no way an animal rights activist nor do I condone the merciless slaughter or forced extinction of certain animals but I believe that if this is not resolved and it gets to be a much more ludicrous situation, we may have to push our environmental feelings aside and start drilling in Anwar.

[Audiomechanic]

I am not an economist. I am not even particularly smart. I do read a lot.

I don't have a crystal ball.

Energy prices effect the price of EVERYTHING; food ( from the price of fertilizer to the cost of harvest, to the cost of the machines used for harvest to the cost of transpoting that food to the cost of manufacturing and storing that food to the cost of delivering it to the store), ALL manufacturing of anything, transportation, chemicals, phamacueticals,....well, EVERTHING!!

So, if the COST PRODUCING and DELIVERING EVERYTHING goes up, while everything else (like productivity) stays the same; then PRICES WILL GO UP. And, if everything else (like wages) stay the same (and they will have to if there is no increase in productivity) then we will spend more money on EVERYTHING without an increase in income. So people (like you and me) will spend more on essentials (food, housing, utilities, basic transportation), and have less for descretionary items (entertainment, bikes, hobbies, vacations, ect.). So what will happen is a great big shake-out of the entertainment, toy (like motorcycles, atv's, boats, ect) hobbies and the hospitality, service and vacation industries (which employ HALF of all Americans)

You tell ME what you think the results will look like.

Not good I'd say. Not good at all. I better learn to fish, grow my food, and learn some tactical shooting maneuvers.

Thank you for letting me pick your brain a bit. I, like you, enjoy learning as much as possible.

Until hybrids and hydrogen/electric vehicles get cheaper that is.

Hybrids were a scam from the get go. The Prius gets about 40MPG and the Corolla gets about 38 to 40MPG. The ONLY advantage that a hybird has over a regular car is that it doesn't idle at a stop and it can regain a SMALL amount of it's battery upon braking. Other than that, it takes in the exact same energy every other car does: gasoline. So, energy in, energy out. It really is that simple.

[upshift]

Hybrids were a scam from the get go. The Prius gets about 40MPG and the Corolla gets about 38 to 40MPG. The ONLY advantage that a hybird has over a regular car is that it doesn't idle at a stop and it can regain a SMALL amount of it's battery upon braking. Other than that, it takes in the exact same energy every other car does: gasoline. So, energy in, energy out. It really is that simple.

I see what you're saying but hybrids really do have a leg up on the competition. You're not going to find many strictly gas cars that will do 40mpg BUT you will be able to extract much more energy using gas as a secondary energy source, in theory anyways. If you take a gas engine and use it to create electrical energy to power electric motors, you will no doubt create just as much or less energy than gas alone would. The thing is, however, that in theory, the electrical energy that is produced will be able to go farther than the gas used. So basically:

If 5 gallons of gas are used to create lets say 3 Megawatts of electrical energy, you will probably be able to use that 3 Megawatts for a distance of 120 miles plus that of the energy you can renewbut that 5 gallons may only get you 80 miles. (Note this situation is completely hypothetical)

My point is that the idea is good, its just the technology and the fine tuning that is required to make it work pretty good will not come overnight. Instead it will possibly take years to make it worth the extra money you spend. All in all people who design those cars are just trying to make a gallon of gas go farther. Its almost like creating a perpetual motion device tho; you can only get so close before it just wont work.

[Bassplayer]

im paying 4.12 today :panic:

[upshift]

im paying 4.12 today :panic:

:hss: I seriously hope you dont have a big truck to fill up or anything bro :panic:

[Audiomechanic]

I see what you're saying but hybrids really do have a leg up on the competition. You're not going to find many strictly gas cars that will do 40mpg BUT you will be able to extract much more energy using gas as a secondary energy source, in theory anyways. If you take a gas engine and use it to create electrical energy to power electric motors, you will no doubt create just as much or less energy than gas alone would. The thing is, however, that in theory, the electrical energy that is produced will be able to go farther than the gas used. So basically:

If 5 gallons of gas are used to create lets say 3 Megawatts of electrical energy, you will probably be able to use that 3 Megawatts for a distance of 120 miles plus that of the energy you can renewbut that 5 gallons may only get you 80 miles. (Note this situation is completely hypothetical)

My point is that the idea is good, its just the technology and the fine tuning that is required to make it work pretty good will not come overnight. Instead it will possibly take years to make it worth the extra money you spend. All in all people who design those cars are just trying to make a gallon of gas go farther. Its almost like creating a perpetual motion device tho; you can only get so close before it just wont work.

I agree with you that using a gas engine (diesel would be better) to power a generator to run electric motors would be better, but as far as I know, the gas engine in a hybrid is used to charge the battery AND propel the car forward. The main problem here that I see in a hybrid is weight. They are heavy SOB's due to having an added generator and electric motor plus a giant battery AND keeping a fairly standard drive train setup.

If I were to design one (since I'm not an engineer it's probably best that I don't. :D ), I would have a small diesel engine that would run at one continuous RPM (which is how a diesel really is supposed to run anyway), which would be it's RPM of peak efficiency, or WOT for a diesel, to turn a generator to power 2 or 4 smaller electric motors mounted centrally along the frame with drive shafts attaching them to each wheel. I see several benefits with this: 1) less weight as the only battery in the car would be for the accessories and starting the diesel engine, 2) less parasitic HP loss due to excessive drive train friction translating to greater efficiency and power output, 3) the diesel engine would run at peak efficiency all the time; only it's load would change, not it's speed. This is how diesel locomotives work and for the work they do, they're pretty darn efficient.

We totally hijacked this thread. Back on track: GAS PRICES SUCK!!! SOMEONE NEEDS TO BE A SACRIFICE FOR OUR FRUSTRATION!!!! .........I vote the eco-nuts.

im paying 4.12 today :panic:

:no:

[upshift]

I agree with you that using a gas engine (diesel would be better) to power a generator to run electric motors would be better, but as far as I know, the gas engine in a hybrid is used to charge the battery AND propel the car forward. The main problem here that I see in a hybrid is weight. They are heavy SOB's due to having an added generator and electric motor plus a giant battery AND keeping a fairly standard drive train setup.

If I were to design one (since I'm not an engineer it's probably best that I don't. :D ), I would have a small diesel engine that would run at one continuous RPM (which is how a diesel really is supposed to run anyway), which would be it's RPM of peak efficiency, or WOT for a diesel, to turn a generator to power 2 or 4 smaller electric motors mounted centrally along the frame with drive shafts attaching them to each wheel. I see several benefits with this: 1) less weight as the only battery in the car would be for the accessories and starting the diesel engine, 2) less parasitic HP loss due to excessive drive train friction translating to greater efficiency and power output, 3) the diesel engine would run at peak efficiency all the time; only it's load would change, not it's speed. This is how diesel locomotives work and for the work they do, they're pretty darn efficient.

We totally hijacked this thread. Back on track: GAS PRICES SUCK!!! SOMEONE NEEDS TO BE A SACRIFICE FOR OUR FRUSTRATION!!!! .........I vote the eco-nuts.

Yeah you have a good point and I agree with you 100%. The only thing is that hybrids do essentially the same thing just on an interval basis rather than a continuous one. I could make some points but for the sake of keeping this thread on topic I will keep my mouth shut :lol: It was a good little debate tho.

[Audiomechanic]

Yeah you have a good point and I agree with you 100%. The only thing is that hybrids do essentially the same thing just on an interval basis rather than a continuous one. I could make some points but for the sake of keeping this thread on topic I will keep my mouth shut :lol: It was a good little debate tho.

Twas. Twas indeed. :yes:

[NONE_too_SOFT]

I am not an economist. I am not even particularly smart. I do read a lot.

I don't have a crystal ball.

Energy prices effect the price of EVERYTHING; food ( from the price of fertilizer to the cost of harvest, to the cost of the machines used for harvest to the cost of transpoting that food to the cost of manufacturing and storing that food to the cost of delivering it to the store), ALL manufacturing of anything, transportation, chemicals, phamacueticals,....well, EVERTHING!!

So, if the COST PRODUCING and DELIVERING EVERYTHING goes up, while everything else (like productivity) stays the same; then PRICES WILL GO UP. And, if everything else (like wages) stay the same (and they will have to if there is no increase in productivity) then we will spend more money on EVERYTHING without an increase in income. So people (like you and me) will spend more on essentials (food, housing, utilities, basic transportation), and have less for descretionary items (entertainment, bikes, hobbies, vacations, ect.). So what will happen is a great big shake-out of the entertainment, toy (like motorcycles, atv's, boats, ect) hobbies and the hospitality, service and vacation industries (which employ HALF of all Americans)

You tell ME what you think the results will look like.

http://www.davers.org/stuff/upstream/gestures/thumbsup_arniesmall.jpg
???

[Bassplayer]

:hss: I seriously hope you dont have a big truck to fill up or anything bro :panic:

2001 GMC jimmy
avg city 17-18
avg hwy 22-26
:panic:

usually around 60-65 bucks to fillerup

now remember my previous car...
1984 chevy caprice wagon
20 gal tank
8-10mpg anywhere
70 or so bucks to fill up.
:panic:

[azoomm]

I say thank you to each and every one of you.

Well, in a way. See, my husband is gainfully employed in Oil & Gas. They have found a field in the Gulf that is suspected to be larger than that of the Saudi field. And, THAT field has been tapped now for how many decades? Well, it's a deep water drill... and they are moving a few swarms of semi-submersables there to tap it. With any luck, prices will drop because of it. We might need a few more refineries though ;)