Solar, electric cars, batteries, and making money without trying.

[Avatard]

I've been thinking (always dangerous).

I've been considering solar, and a battery array. My house is literally all electric, and if I added enough panels, I might even end up with the electric company "paying my rent", if I can get the fucking meter spinning backwards fast enough.

I'm watching TV the other day, and they were talking about how today's modern electric/hybrid battery cars, with their huge storage capacities, and computer-run charging schemes, could not only be programmed to be charged at night, when current is cheaper...but that this battery array alternately could then be used to even power your house during the daylight hours, when current can actually cost double (depending on where you live).

So my thoughts went back simply to the storage battery array part of a typical solar home installation, and I thought; hmmmm:

What if you said fuck the car, fuck the solar panels, but just hook up a shitload of batteries? ...And then charge them at night when the rates are low, and sell that shit right back to the grid during peak hours...and fucking MAKE MONEY for doing absolutely SHIT (my single favorite concept of all time)?

Why not just "bank" current?

:skep:

[OneSickPsycho]

I'm guessing that with the cost of batteries and depending on your usage, you probably won't make shit.

[Papa_Complex]

Find and watch the video "Holmes on Homes - Lien on Me." You'll like what they did. A family's home was renovated by a "friend of the family" who did such a great job, that later inspection showed that it should probably be condemned. Holmes tore it down and built a new house using solar electric panels and solar water heating, an elevator (for when your joints are acting up), and tapped the whole thing into a huge UPS in the basement.

[derf]

By the time you get all the equipment bought it would cost thousands, and good luck making that back a few cents a night

[tommymac]

By the time you get all the equipment bought it would cost thousands, and good luck making that back a few cents a night

and thats comming from a jew :lol:

[Avatard]

Double. As in 100% return.

Use refurbished lead acid car batts, and the cost is quite low.

Since when is 100% a bad return?

You guys are gonna hafta do better than that to talk me outta this idea.

Which one of you slide-rule motherfuckers can shoot me down better than that?

[nhgunnut]

Double. As in 100% return.

Use refurbished lead acid car batts, and the cost is quite low.

Since when is 100% a bad return?

You guys are gonna hafta do better than that to talk me outta this idea.

Which one of you slide-rule motherfuckers can shoot me down better than that?

The lead acid car batteries are not ideal but here in New England there are several companies that would be happy to help you design a system. Solar systems tend to be to inconsistent and require a back up of some kind. A few of more "Self Reliant" off the Grid associates have systems , they also use wind and back up generators (one is a rather nice Diesel system and he process restaurant fryer oils into bio diesel) I looked into a system 100% is possible over about 15 years. If you don't count maintenance or have any critical failures. Let us know how it goes , I would love to see pictures

[defector]

So you would power your entire house from a bank of automotive type (DC) batteries?

What amount of amperage does your house use daily, and what kind of power loss will you experience using an inverter to convert it from DC to AC? I would think knowing this would give you an idea of how big a battery bank you would need.
I just picture a basement full of lead acid batteries, venting gas during the normal discharge / charge cycle.

[Papa_Complex]

So you would power your entire house from a bank of automotive type (DC) batteries?

What amount of amperage does your house use daily, and what kind of power loss will you experience using an inverter to convert it from DC to AC? I would think knowing this would give you an idea of how big a battery bank you would need.
I just picture a basement full of lead acid batteries, venting gas during the normal discharge / charge cycle.

For lighting there would be no need of a power inverter. LED lights are very efficient and now available with sufficient brightness. There are also a wide range of appliances available to run on 12VDC, for use in campers and on boats.

[Trip]

As long as you can perform the maintenance yourself and are equipped to handle a battery mishap, go for it. A battery bank can present a very real danger though. Make sure you have it secure from idiots/vandals and have an adequate location to contain a spill.

No way in hell I would try it with car batteries though.

Solar is still pretty costly for an average user, if you do it right and get the right tax credits and other benefits, you can make it pay off in a decade or two.

[Papa_Complex]

Which could kick in around retirement time, for a net gain. Sounds like a good timetable to me.

[Trip]

We have a pretty kick ass storage system at TVA. Look up Raccoon Mountain Pump Station.

It's a big hole we fill with water at night and pump it out through our generators during the day. It doesn't create any energy, actually uses more than it produces. It's purely a money making machine.

[Papa_Complex]

We have a pretty kick ass storage system at TVA. Look up Raccoon Mountain Pump Station.

It's a big hole we fill with water at night and pump it out through our generators during the day. It doesn't create any energy, actually uses more than it produces. It's purely a money making machine.

Every storage method uses more energy than it gives back, no? ;)

[Trip]

Every storage method uses more energy than it gives back, no? ;)

yes there are losses with any system. douche lol

[Avatard]

OK. Not being a rocket scientist, from what I can gather, if you have a 75% efficiency storage medium, and you double your money selling energy back at peak hours, then you are still at 50% net gain, no?

...and for the record, such a system really need not even be TOUCHED by your house electric, just act as a storage medium in order to sell power back to the grid.

It could be in a shack outside.

[Trip]

OK. Not being a rocket scientist, from what I can gather, if you have a 75% efficiency storage medium, and you double your money selling energy back at peak hours, then you are still at 50% net gain, no?

...and for the record, such a system really need not even be TOUCHED by your house electric, just act as a storage medium in order to sell power back to the grid.

It could be in a shack outside.

I would talk to your utility before you invest in this. Some will not want home built systems tied to the grid. Reliability and power stability reasons.

[Hydrant]

I would talk to your utility before you invest in this. Some will not want home built systems tied to the grid. Reliability and power stability reasons.


Also, backfeeding issues. When we had the windstorm in 08, and it knocked out power in some places for 3-5 weeks, the utility company said they were spending a lot of time in rural areas checking the power at every building. They were afraid of someone having a generator plugged into the washing machine outlet, feeding the house, but backfeeding into their system, meaning the linesmen could get hit. After the storm, they told everyone that if they are going to have an alternative power source, that you must have a disconnect going from the house, to utility lines.

[Dave]

I've been thinking (always dangerous).

I've been considering solar, and a battery array. My house is literally all electric, and if I added enough panels, I might even end up with the electric company "paying my rent", if I can get the fucking meter spinning backwards fast enough.

I'm watching TV the other day, and they were talking about how today's modern electric/hybrid battery cars, with their huge storage capacities, and computer-run charging schemes, could not only be programmed to be charged at night, when current is cheaper...but that this battery array alternately could then be used to even power your house during the daylight hours, when current can actually cost double (depending on where you live).

So my thoughts went back simply to the storage battery array part of a typical solar home installation, and I thought; hmmmm:

What if you said fuck the car, fuck the solar panels, but just hook up a shitload of batteries? ...And then charge them at night when the rates are low, and sell that shit right back to the grid during peak hours...and fucking MAKE MONEY for doing absolutely SHIT (my single favorite concept of all time)?

Why not just "bank" current?

:skep:

gets better than that, google srec. iirc you get one cert per kilowatt hour generated. then you sell it to the power company (in nj i believe you can sell to any state) http://www.srectrade.com/

[goof2]

Give it a shot. My guess is you will never get to break even, but I'm no expert either.

[caveman]

I would talk to your utility before you invest in this. Some will not want home built systems tied to the grid. Reliability and power stability reasons.

Trip, I can't believe that you haven't totally ripped this idea to shreds. This system would never work. Once you try to parallel your power source to the grid if you are not exactly in sync with the system grid you will back feed your system and KA-BLOOEY. That's why our Diesel Back-up generators that we use on the plant premesis for emergencies have sync-check breakers when we are running them parallel to the grid.

Once you install any sort of solar system with a battery bank, that part of the system is on a throwover switch that won't let you parellel with the grid. Because more than likely you will not be putting out enough power to overcome grid voltage and the back-feed will blow out your system and possibly light your house wiring like a christmas tree. Think about what would happen to your house if it weren't grounded properly and lightning struck it. ZZZZAAAAAPPPP!!!!!!!!!

The only thing with solar is for your own use. No selling back allowed and your local utility will tell you to :gofurslf: they are in the business of making CAISH MONEY, not paying out $$$ to peeps who think they can store their power and return it to them.

[karl_1052]

This guy did it.

http://www.bergey.com/Examples/Kemp.html

Although, he just does it for free electricity.

Don't forget wind generators. They are starting to become very popular in Ontario, and if Ontario Hydro thinks there is a profit in them, then there most likely is.

[Trip]

Trip, I can't believe that you haven't totally ripped this idea to shreds. This system would never work. Once you try to parallel your power source to the grid if you are not exactly in sync with the system grid you will back feed your system and KA-BLOOEY. That's why our Diesel Back-up generators that we use on the plant premesis for emergencies have sync-check breakers when we are running them parallel to the grid.

Once you install any sort of solar system with a battery bank, that part of the system is on a throwover switch that won't let you parellel with the grid. Because more than likely you will not be putting out enough power to overcome grid voltage and the back-feed will blow out your system and possibly light your house wiring like a christmas tree. Think about what would happen to your house if it weren't grounded properly and lightning struck it. ZZZZAAAAAPPPP!!!!!!!!!

The only thing with solar is for your own use. No selling back allowed and your local utility will tell you to :gofurslf: they are in the business of making CAISH MONEY, not paying out $$$ to peeps who think they can store their power and return it to them.

Some utilities do allow and endorse home solar/wind systems. They aren't going to let you connect your hillbilly 500 self designed system and they are going to have regulations on how you can do it, but some do allow it. A lot of the new solar homes connect to the grid. You do need a sync check system to tie on and off.

I am sure you are right on battery banks though, they won't dig it. They will force a throw over switch on that.

[Avatard]

Wow, it's as if no one knows how these systems work.

Sorry I asked here, I thought some of you guys might know something...

[OneSickPsycho]

Wow, it's as if no one knows how these systems work.

Sorry I asked here, I thought some of you guys might know something...

Are you butt-hurt because your idea won't work?

[Avatard]

No, shocked that no one even grasps WTF I'm speaking of.

Reading Is Fundamental. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_metering)

The systems in use are phase-coherent, and CAN connect directly to the grid.

If you don't know what you're talking about, then don't comment.

I asked if someone here knew specifically if the efficiency of a battery-only system would be profitable (approximate ROI).

If you don't even know WTF the technology does, don't be a fucking ass.

[Trip]

Wow, it's as if no one knows how these systems work.

Sorry I asked here, I thought some of you guys might know something...

What exactly do you want to know? You haven't really asked anything of substance just generalizations and pipe dreams. I can't give you anything of value in response to that crap.

Most of the stuff you want to do is heavily regulated and determined by your local utility if you actually want it on the grid. I can't answer for a utility I do not have any connection or relation to, that's why you have to call them.

[Avatard]

What exactly do you want to know?

Essentially this:

I asked if someone here knew specifically if the efficiency of a battery-only system would be profitable (approximate ROI).



Most of the stuff you want to do is heavily regulated and determined by your local utility if you actually want it on the grid. I can't answer for a utility I do not have any connection or relation to, that's why you have to call them.

Actually, it's mandated by Federal law that they hafta buy back juice.

I was wondering about efficiency of a battery-only energy "banking" system, VS a full-on solar system, in regards to ROI.

I have a hunch it's ROI is actually better ;)

[Trip]

Essentially this:

Actually, it's mandated by Federal law that they hafta buy back juice.

I was wondering about efficiency of a battery-only energy "banking" system, VS a full-on solar system, in regards to ROI.

I have a hunch it's ROI is actually better ;)

The grid is not like a bank where you can just submit all the amps you want and it will take it. It all depends on if your area needs power. If your area can generate it's own energy without buying it from other areas or you, then it's possible you won't backfeed much during the day at all. You may essentially just end up staying neutral and having the needle sit still or slowly rotate in their favor if you don't have a large enough system to sustain your own house during the day since you said you have a lot of electronics. Without knowing your details on your usage, the area's usage and buying habits, and how large of a system you plan to build, it's an impossible calculation.

They will also not just let you attach anything to the grid. They will have to worry about your neighbors and that your system can adequately connect without compromising the stability of the grid. (your system going boom and blacking out the neighborhood)

Electricity isn't something to play with because you are bored and want a neato project. It's serious shit that is heavily regulated. That's why I suggest contacting your utility and asking for one of their guys that know exactly what their rules are for the area to discuss your options.

[Avatard]

Geez Trip, et tu?

You think I'm an idiot?

I'm talking about using grid approved systems, exactly like the type in use today, that routinely (by law) sell current back to the grid.

This isn't the fucking black art you make it out to be.

I'm only talking about taking the solar panels our of the existing "typical" rig - nothing else changes.

By charging the batts off the grid when current is cheap, and then selling it back when demand is high, you can profit. I just wanted to know if losses and ROI cost makes it prohibitive.

This is already being done with managed charging systems for plug-in hybrids, and in fact RUNS ON FUCKING WINDOWS on the car's own computer [SYNC].

Apparently, I know more about this shit than all you guys...sorry I bothered y'all.

[Trip]

Geez Trip, et tu?

You think I'm an idiot?

I'm talking about using grid approved systems, exactly like the type in use today, that routinely (by law) sell current back to the grid.

This isn't the fucking black art you make it out to be.

I'm only talking about taking the solar panels our of the existing "typical" rig - nothing else changes.

By charging the batts off the grid when current is cheap, and then selling it back when demand is high, you can profit. I just wanted to know if losses and ROI cost makes it prohibitive.

This is already being done with managed charging systems for plug-in hybrids, and in fact RUNS ON FUCKING WINDOWS on the car's own computer [SYNC].

I am leery to give anyone advice on electrical systems over the internet. I have seen the repercussions of fuck ups. I rather not have my name tied to anything I haven't seen or touched.

You still don't see how the grid works. You aren't going to discharge your batteries at the time you wish and then charge them at a time you wish. The grid doesn't work that way. It takes what it needs when it needs it from where it wants. It's a very very very large calculation to determine where power will go. It can be likely that your batteries won't discharge at all during the day and may discharge at night when the peakers go offline and the system needs more amps.

Ask any non electrical focused engineer and they will call electricity a black or invisible art. It's a very strange science when you get in depth into the theory of electron flow on the level of a major grid.

[Avatard]

You still don't see how the grid works.

No. I don't give a fuck how it works. That's what YOU aren't getting.

The fact is, I do understand how the law works, and the law says that they have to buy back your current.

As to "how" it's done...I really don't care. The fact remains that it IS done every single day, and that a number of approved systems already exist that CAN do this - so I don't NEED to know HOW.

Got it? I'm not looking to reinvent the fucking wheel here.

I need to know if a typical approved system would still be profitable to operate without the panels (ie. only as a "bank" of current).

If this is beyond your ken, say so...it's well beyond mine.

But my question is not one of HOW, it's one of efficiency and ROI on a panel-less system.

[Trip]

No. I don't give a fuck how it works. That's what YOU aren't getting.

The fact is, I do understand how the law works, and the law says that they have to buy back your current.

As to "how" it's done...I really don't care. The fact remains that it IS done every single day, and that a number of approved systems already exist that CAN do this - so I don't NEED to know HOW.

Got it? I'm not looking to reinvent the fucking wheel here.

I need to know if a typical approved system would still be profitable to operate without the panels (ie. only as a "bank" of current).

If this is beyond your ken, say so...it's well beyond mine.

But my question is not one of HOW, it's one of efficiency and ROI on a panel-less system.

I am answering your fucking question, you are too much of a dumbass to see what I am explaining.

If you want to power your house, sure you can not pay the utility for the usage you use from your system. If the grid doesn't need your current, you won't be selling them anything. They don't have to buy something they don't need and not receiving. If no current is flowing from your house on to the grid, then you don't sell them anything. They aren't using your batteries. You can connect it to the grid, but if it's not used, it's not used. Essentially, you don't make money.

Example time....

Independent generating peakers are usually online during the day and offline at night because the grid doesn't need them. If the grid isn't having a heavy usage day, like a cold front comes in during summer and people don't need the AC, then the independent peaker may not be needed that day and they won't sell anything.

Knowing the usage and needs of your local grid is very important to understanding the profitability of your system. Batteries just don't dump their load at your wish and charge at your wish...

You are not going to be base generation, you will be swing generation. Your selling and charging times will be dependent on the grid needs.

So answering your question on profitability of your system without knowledge of what is going on over there is impossible.

[Trip]

‘(11) NET METERING.—Each electric utility shall make available upon request net metering service to any electric consumer that the electric utility serves. For purposes of this paragraph, the term ‘net metering service’ means service to an electric consumer under which electric energy generated by that electric consumer from an eligible on-site generating facility and delivered to the local distribution facilities may be used to offset electric energy provided by the electric utility to the electric consumer during the applicable billing period.

Here is that law you keep bitching about.

See this part right here "electric energy generated by that electric consumer from an eligible on-site generating facility and delivered to the local distribution facilities."

Yeah, see that part "delivered" if your system isn't delivering power, you aren't getting paid. The grid decides when it will accept your power for it's use. Just cause you have a battery bank tied on, doesn't mean it's going to deliver the energy it holds on your whim. It will deliver it when the grid demands it. Knowing how the grid works is essential to knowing your profitability of the system.

[Avatard]

Trip, there are numerous systems running today (it's actually quite common) that sell current back to the grid. This isn't rocket surgery.

Cut the shit. Just say you don't know...

[Trip]

Trip, there are numerous systems running today (it's actually quite common) that sell current back to the grid. This isn't rocket surgery.

Cut the shit. Just say you don't know...

I have "So answering your question on profitability of your system without knowledge of what is going on over there is impossible."

I need much more information to make any sort of guess. How much usage you use, how large a bank you are going to be using, the grid demands, and generation.

Is it possible to save money? Yes, it's very possible to save money. Will you turn a profit over time after the cost of the sysem is canceled out? That's up in the air. I have no idea with the information you have given us. It's not a possible calculation. That's what makes power generation such a risky venture.

If it's not rocket surgery, go get your EE degree and get a job in the field. Power sales and power prediction is a very demanding and lucrative job. Many many companies have failed to accurately do it.

[Flexin]

Trip, I can't believe that you haven't totally ripped this idea to shreds. This system would never work. Once you try to parallel your power source to the grid if you are not exactly in sync with the system grid you will back feed your system and KA-BLOOEY. That's why our Diesel Back-up generators that we use on the plant premesis for emergencies have sync-check breakers when we are running them parallel to the grid.

Once you install any sort of solar system with a battery bank, that part of the system is on a throwover switch that won't let you parellel with the grid. Because more than likely you will not be putting out enough power to overcome grid voltage and the back-feed will blow out your system and possibly light your house wiring like a christmas tree. Think about what would happen to your house if it weren't grounded properly and lightning struck it. ZZZZAAAAAPPPP!!!!!!!!!

The only thing with solar is for your own use. No selling back allowed and your local utility will tell you to :gofurslf: they are in the business of making CAISH MONEY, not paying out $$$ to peeps who think they can store their power and return it to them.

Some countries are able to sell extra power from a windmill back to the power company.

James

[Trip]

Some countries are able to sell extra power from a windmill back to the power company.

James

Don't mind him, he is subject to the regulation of nuclear and hasn't seen the wonderland that is regular old fashion power generation. We can't do shit in nuclear without written permission to do so by 40 managers, 3 senior reactor operators, and the NRC.

[101lifts2]

.....What if you said fuck the car, fuck the solar panels, but just hook up a shitload of batteries? ...And then charge them at night when the rates are low, and sell that shit right back to the grid during peak hours...and fucking MAKE MONEY for doing absolutely SHIT (my single favorite concept of all time)?

Why not just "bank" current?

:skep:

1. There are heat losses. So you are going to transfer 3 phase A/C current to DC then back to three phase current with lead acid batteries? Ummm...yeah.

2. They probably charge you more for the night wattage then what they would pay you for the day wattage current you would be giving them.

This is how a typical musician thinks ....and we wonder why 90% of buisnesses fail. lol

[Captain Morgan]

Trip, there are numerous systems running today (it's actually quite common) that sell current back to the grid. This isn't rocket surgery.

Cut the shit. Just say you don't know...

Good grief, you're being a dumbass. I don't know shit about power generation or consumption, yet I can still understand what trip is saying. And I can see that he's answered your question, but you refuse to accept his answer.

You can't just "charge at night" and "sell during the day" because the system doesn't work like that. If it was that simple, every Joe Schmoe would buy a damn bank of batteries and sit on his ass making money. Hell, you might never make a profit because your system might just charge during the day and sell at night, thus, costing you money. Figure out how the system works in your area and then you'll get an idea whether it's even possible to make a profit.

[Avatard]

:lmao:

I'm the dumbass? That's rich.

You're right about one thing though, you don't know shit.

[caveman]

No. I don't give a fuck how it works. That's what YOU aren't getting.

The fact is, I do understand how the law works, and the law says that they have to buy back your current.

As to "how" it's done...I really don't care. The fact remains that it IS done every single day, and that a number of approved systems already exist that CAN do this - so I don't NEED to know HOW.

Got it? I'm not looking to reinvent the fucking wheel here.

I need to know if a typical approved system would still be profitable to operate without the panels (ie. only as a "bank" of current).

If this is beyond your ken, say so...it's well beyond mine.

But my question is not one of HOW, it's one of efficiency and ROI on a panel-less system.

what the hell Federal Mandate states that the utility HAS to buy the current back? Cause last time I checked, you don't have to have electricity. You can actually opt out of buying power from the utility, and go completely self-sufficient. So where on God's green earth did you read an ACTUAL law that states some one has to buy anything from you.

I am not from Missouri but you need to SHOW ME that F'in law in writing.

[Avatard]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20003421-54.html

"BYD has also designed grid storage units that can store power made at off-peak times for local distribution."

Now, add that technology to the solar panel systems that sell unused power back to the grid, you you MAY being to understand WTF it is I'm speaking of.

I say you CAN "game" the fucking system, and make money with a bank of nothing more than batteries, by selling the current back at peak hours.

Now, I just wanna know where the break-even mark is, and whether it's practical.

Now, if anyone who actually knows what the fuck it is I'm even talking about can help with the idea, please do, if not, please stop telling me how fucking stupid "I" am.

[Captain Morgan]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20003421-54.htmlI say you CAN "game" the fucking system, and make money with a bank of nothing more than batteries, by selling the current back at peak hours.

IF you charge at non-peak hours when it's cheap and IF the company buys it back DURING the peak hours.

However, they don't have to buy it back from you at peak just because you want to sell it to them at peak.

That was trip's point, but apparently you can't understand that. Is it really THAT fucking difficult to understand? Just because YOU want to sell it at peak, doesn't mean it's going to be bought at peak. Does that make sense, or do I need to figure out a different way to say it?

[Homeslice]

Point is: Just because you CAN sell something, doesn't mean someone NEEDS it. Your "right" to sell power is meaningless if the utility doesn't need it.

[Flexin]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20003421-54.html

"BYD has also designed grid storage units that can store power made at off-peak times for local distribution."

Now, add that technology to the solar panel systems that sell unused power back to the grid, you you MAY being to understand WTF it is I'm speaking of.

I say you CAN "game" the fucking system, and make money with a bank of nothing more than batteries, by selling the current back at peak hours.

Now, I just wanna know where the break-even mark is, and whether it's practical.

Now, if anyone who actually knows what the fuck it is I'm even talking about can help with the idea, please do, if not, please stop telling me how fucking stupid "I" am.

"BYD has also designed grid storage units that can store power made at off-peak times for local distribution. An 800-kilowatt system, which fits into a tractor trailer, costs $450,000, Austin said."

That isn't a cheap system.

I think you need to look at what Trip is saying. If your area has no problem making enough power there might not be anything to sell. Cali seems like a good place for something like this if they are still having energy problems.

James

[Trip]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20003421-54.html

"BYD has also designed grid storage units that can store power made at off-peak times for local distribution."

Now, add that technology to the solar panel systems that sell unused power back to the grid, you you MAY being to understand WTF it is I'm speaking of.

I say you CAN "game" the fucking system, and make money with a bank of nothing more than batteries, by selling the current back at peak hours.

Now, I just wanna know where the break-even mark is, and whether it's practical.

Now, if anyone who actually knows what the fuck it is I'm even talking about can help with the idea, please do, if not, please stop telling me how fucking stupid "I" am.

God damn, how many times do I have to say it. Captain gets it. The grid will still have to need it, to actually use it. These tractor trailer systems are peakers. They use them during peak times in areas that NEED peakers. Does your area need peakers? This is information you haven't told me or know for yourself. Find out more about your area, does your utility need the power or is it selling power to other utilities. If it is selling more than it is buying, there is a good chance you won't be providing all of the juice from your batteries to a load that will make you money. Your amperage doesn't just get magically used and the company pays you for it. It needs a computer, a air conditioner, a toaster, etc... for it to be consumed.

The biggest bang for your buck will come from somewhere that has issues providing power to it's customers and relies on buying from outside. New York City is a prime spot that just devours power.

[pauldun170]

God damn, how many times do I have to say it. Captain gets it. The grid will still have to need it, to actually use it. These tractor trailer systems are peakers. They use them during peak times in areas that NEED peakers. Does your area need peakers? This is information you haven't told me or know for yourself. Find out more about your area, does your utility need the power or is it selling power to other utilities. If it is selling more than it is buying, there is a good chance you won't be providing all of the juice from your batteries to a load that will make you money. Your amperage does just get magically used and the company pays you for it. It needs a computer, a air conditioner, a toaster, etc... for it to be consumed.

:pwsign:

[Trip]

she scares me

[Flexin]

If there is an affordable system that can provide more then what you can use and your in an area that can use it then that might work. If the system can be set to use off peak rates (I think here the off peak rates are just during the winter but I could be wrong) and then run your house from it using the cheap power you bought. That will save you some money there which doesn't put money in your pocket but it takes less out. Then you might make some off of power that is sold to the power company.

I think you said you wanted to not use it and just sell it but if your using it during peak times then is pretty much the same thing.

James

[Trip]

I think you said you wanted to not use it and just sell it but if your using it during peak times then is pretty much the same thing.

James

that would be correct, they pay you off a net meter. Any usage you had would be subtracted from what you put on the system. You would have to build a system that had the ability to offset your own usage. It could pay off if you invested a lot of money initially, had the ability to maintain it, and lived in a good area for it.

[pauldun170]

she scares me
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100701073822AAoGIJX

[Trip]

From your wiki article, you may need to read more and talk to more people about this as well.

Net metering enables small systems to result in zero annual net cost to the consumer provided that the consumer is able to shift demand loads to a lower price time, such as by chilling water at a low cost time for later use in air conditioning, or by charging a battery electric vehicle during off-peak times, while the electricity generated at peak demand time can be sent to the grid rather than used locally (see Vehicle-to-grid). No credit is given for annual surplus production.

The last sentence is key.

[Flexin]

that would be correct, they pay you off a net meter. Any usage you had would be subtracted from what you put on the system. You would have to build a system that had the ability to offset your own usage. It could pay off if you invested a lot of money initially, had the ability to maintain it, and lived in a good area for it.

I tried to get info on systems before not to sell power (but I did think about it at times) but to power a house. I would love to have a house on an island but I don't want to give up on any of my 'electronic toys". So the system would need make some good power and or store it. If it was more like a high end cottage then it would have time to charge up a system for the next visit but it would still need to make/have enough power to last during my stay. I don't think what I want (including the house) would be cheap because of what I want and where it would be.

I think that would have to be a lotto win house or save a shit load for retirement to build.

James

[Trip]

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100701073822AAoGIJX

not all of them, the old spice guy is awesome and this, well this...........


*FAP* *FAP* *FAP* *FAP*

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/NrllAless/blog/news/covergirls/tyrasports3.jpg

[Trip]

More from that article:

Net purchase and sale is a different method of providing power to the electricity grid that does not offer the price symmetry of net metering, making this system a lot less profitable for home users of small renewable electricity systems.

Under this arrangement, two uni-directional meters are installed—one records electricity drawn from the grid, and the other records excess electricity generated and fed back into the grid. The user pays retail rate for the electricity they use, and the power provider purchases their excess generation at its avoided cost (wholesale rate). There may be a significant difference between the retail rate the user pays and the power provider's avoided cost

Looks like they may rig it against you. I would be interested in hearing the results from someone who has built a large system in their home. I've only heard of people going off the grid or just saving money, not actually making any.

[101lifts2]

Someone is getting seriously owned in this thread.

Fuck those chicks are nice.

[goof2]

Out of curiosity I ran some numbers on this.

There are a number of assumptions for this. I may have forgotten a few so most of them are listed below.
1) You can sell the power back whenever you want.
2) When they buy it back the power company pays you what they are charging at that time.
3) Peak cost for electricity is double off-peak cost.
4) Your normal usage before charging the batteries is 70% peak/30% off-peak.
5) You are using car batteries with a full charge of 100 Amp hours.
6) Those car batteries are 80% efficient (put in 1 unit and .8 of a unit comes out).
7) Your monthly electricity requirement before the batteries is 1000 kilowatt hours (about average)
8)There are no extra taxes or fees in your electricity bill, only the electricity itself.
9) You pay nothing for the batteries, nothing for the wiring, and nothing to maintain the system.

All that being said you would need around 700 batteries in your system just to be able to make enough money to pay for your normal electric bill. Good luck.

[Avatard]

THAT'S what I needed to hear.

Thanks goof. I figured it would take a shitload of batts.

[Avatard]

More from that article:



Looks like they may rig it against you. I would be interested in hearing the results from someone who has built a large system in their home. I've only heard of people going off the grid or just saving money, not actually making any.

That's what it sounds like.

I guess someone figured out that it may actually be possible to game the system, and made sure it's never gonna pass the break-even point.

It appears that the very best you can ever hope for is to break even on any costs of buying electricity.

[caveman]

Out of curiosity I ran some numbers on this.

There are a number of assumptions for this. I may have forgotten a few so most of them are listed below.
1) You can sell the power back whenever you want.
2) When they buy it back the power company pays you what they are charging at that time.
3) Peak cost for electricity is double off-peak cost.
4) Your normal usage before charging the batteries is 70% peak/30% off-peak.
5) You are using car batteries with a full charge of 100 Amp hours.
6) Those car batteries are 80% efficient (put in 1 unit and .8 of a unit comes out).
7) Your monthly electricity requirement before the batteries is 1000 kilowatt hours (about average)
8)There are no extra taxes or fees in your electricity bill, only the electricity itself.
9) You pay nothing for the batteries, nothing for the wiring, and nothing to maintain the system.

All that being said you would need around 700 batteries in your system just to be able to make enough money to pay for your normal electric bill. Good luck.

Just curious where did you get your numbers from? and where did you get the info for #2? I am only asking because there is no FACKING way a big corporation is gonna pay some retard that has 700 batteries wired to the grid making it more unstable than it already is when they can tell that whack job to take a flying leap off a short pier and disconnect them for possibly causing a grid instability that threatens the rest of said grid.

I work for a power company and I have looked into this stuff and there is no way in hell they would knowingly allow you let alone pay you for your power.

[goof2]

Just curious where did you get your numbers from? and where did you get the info for #2? I am only asking because there is no FACKING way a big corporation is gonna pay some retard that has 700 batteries wired to the grid making it more unstable than it already is when they can tell that whack job to take a flying leap off a short pier and disconnect them for possibly causing a grid instability that threatens the rest of said grid.

I work for a power company and I have looked into this stuff and there is no way in hell they would knowingly allow you let alone pay you for your power.

Some of the assumptions are based on a very little bit of research on google. As an example one website said a typical car battery stores around 100 amp hours so I used that number. Some of the assumptions aren't based on fact at all. Specifically numbers 1, 2, 8, and 9 on my list are there as a way to keep the calculations simple. Wherever I decided to do this I made it as favorable as possible for the consumer just to see what kind of number it gave.

Realistically numbers 1 and 2 are the smaller assumptions. Number 8 is pure fantasy and number 9 may as well be. If someone actually had to pay for them it would run around $35,000 just for the batteries (at $50 per). I didn't even consider ancillary issues like where the hell do you safely store 14 tons of batteries (figuring 40lbs each) primarily made of lead and acid that also happens to vent a flammable gas (hydrogen).

[Avatard]

Fuck those chicks are nice.

Same chick. Man, you're fucking observant. Nothing gets by you, eh?

[LeeNetworX]

This is all you need.

[goof2]

This is all you need.

:lol:

[Trip]

This is all you need.

I've actually seen a technician do that. It was a 200ft cord that he managed to run a good deal distance to where he needed it and back to plug it into itself. It was hilarious.

[Papa_Complex]

I've actually seen a technician do that. It was a 200ft cord that he managed to run a good deal distance to where he needed it and back to plug it into itself. It was hilarious.

We used to routinely have people plug both ethernet cables from a IP phone into the wall jacks; how to take an entire network stack down in 10 seconds, flat.

[pauldun170]

This is all you need.

:lol

POWER!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q2OlqsknXI

[LeeNetworX]

:lol

POWER!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q2OlqsknXI

Old Spice guy FTW