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NeonspeedRT
06-17-2008, 03:32 PM
I came across this post on the Sport Rider forums. It's a great post for a new rider. It's a long read, but has alot of great information and advice.

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"Have a read, and if it answers your questions, great. If not, post up and we'll all help out as best we can. Many thanks to Chris for going to the trouble to write it.

AT

One of the most common questions new sport bike riders have is, “What kind of sport bike should I get?” This question is asked so often that I have created a standardized response to it. Please keep in mind that these are the views and opinions of one person (albeit countless other also hold them) With that said, on we go…

Getting ANY modern 600cc sport bike for a first ride is a bad idea (far, far, far worse is a 1000cc bike for a first ride.) In fact, it may be nothing more than an expensive form of suicide. Here are a few reasons why.

1. Knowledge of Subject Matter

When anyone starts something new they find themselves at the most basic point of the “beginner’s mind”. This is to say that they are at the very start of the learning curve. They are not even aware of what it is that they don't know. A personal example of this is when I began Shotokan Karate. The first day of class I had no idea what an “inside-block” was, let alone how to do it with correct form, power, and consistency. After some time, and a lot of practice, I could only then realize how bad my form really was. Then, and only then, was I able to begin the process of improving it. I had to become knowledgeable that inside-blocks even existed before I was aware that I couldn’t do them correctly. It takes knowledge OF something in order to understand how that something works, functions, performs, etc. Now lets return to the world of motorcycles. A beginner has NO motorcycle experience. They are not even aware of the power, mistakes, handling, shifting, turning dynamics etc. of any bike, let alone a high performance sport bike. Not only do they lack the SKILL of how to ride a motorcycle, they also lack the knowledge of WHAT skills they need to learn. Acquiring those skills comes only with experience and learning from your mistakes. As one moves through the learning curve they begin to amass new information…they also make mistakes. A ton of them.

2. The Learning Curve

While learning to do something, you make mistakes. Without mistakes the learning process is impossible. A mistake on a sport bike can be fatal. The things new riders need to learn above all is smooth throttle control, proper speed, and how to lean going into turns. A 600cc bike can reach 60mph in about 3 to 5 seconds. A simple beginners mishap with that much power and torque can cost you your life (or a few limbs) before you even knew what happened. Grab a handful of throttle going into a turn and you may end up crossing that little yellow line on the road into on-coming traffic…**shudder**. Bikes that are more forgiving of mistakes are far safer (not to mention, more fun) to learn on.

Ask yourself this question; in which manner would you rather learn to walk on a circus high-wire A) with a 4x4 board that is 2 feet off the ground B) with a wire that is 20 feet off the ground? Most sensible people would choose “A”. The reason why is obvious. Unfortunately safety concerns with a first motorcycle aren’t as apparent as they are in the example above. However, the wrong choice of what equipment to learn on can be just as deadly, regardless of how safe, careful, and level-headed you intend to be.

3. “But I Will be Safe, Responsible, and Level-Headed While Learning".

Sorry, but this line of reasoning doesn’t cut it. To be safe you also need SKILL (throttle control, speed, leaning, etc). Skill comes ONLY with experience. To gain experience you must ride in real traffic, with real cars, and real dangers. Before that experience is developed, you are best suited with a bike that won’t severely punish you for minor mistakes. A cutting edge race bike is not one of these bikes.

Imagine someone saying, "I want to learn to juggle, but I’m going to start by learning with chainsaws. But don’t worry. I intend to go slow, be careful, stay level-headed, and respect the power of the chainsaws while I’m learning". Like the high-wire example, the proper route here isn’t hard to see. Be “careful” all you want, go as “slow” as you want, be as “cautious” as you want, be as “respectful” as you want…your still juggling chainsaws! The “level-headed” thing to do in this situation is NOT to start with chainsaws. Without a foundation in place of HOW to juggle there is only a small level of safety you can aspire towards. Plain and simple, it’s just better to learn juggling with tennis balls than it with chainsaws. The same holds true for learning to ride a motorcycle. Start with a solid foundation in the basics, and then move up. Many people say that “maturity” will help you be safe with motorcycles. They are correct. However, maturity has NOTHING to do with learning to ride a motorcycle. Maturity is what you SHOULD use when deciding what kind of bike to buy so that you may learn to ride a motorcycle safely.

4. “I Don’t Want a Bike I’ll Outgrow”

Please. Did your Momma put you in size 9 shoes at age 2? Get with the program. It is far better to maximize the performance of a smaller motorcycle and get “bored" with it than it is to mess-up your really fast bike (not mention messing yourself up) and not being able to ride at all. Power is nothing without control.

5. “I Don’t Want to Waste Money on a Bike I’ll Only Have for a Short Period of Time” (i.e. cost)

Smaller, used bikes have and retain good resale value. This is because other sane people will want them as learner bikes. You’ll prolly be able to sell a used learner bike for as much as you paid for it. If you can't afford to upgrade in a year or two, then you definitely can't afford to wreck the bike your dreaming about. At the very least, most new riders drop bikes going under 20MPH, when the bike is at its most unstable periods. If you drop your brand new bike, fresh off the showroom floor, while your learning (and you will), you've just broken a directional, perhaps a brake or clutch lever, cracked / scrapped the fairings ($300.00 each to replace), messed-up the engine casing, messed-up the bar ends, etc. It's better and cheaper to drop a used bike that you don’t care about than one you just spent $8,500 on. Fortunately, most of these types of accidents do not result in serious physical injury. It’s usually just a big dent in your pride and…

6. EGO.

Worried about looking like chump on a smaller bike? Well, your gonna look like the biggest idiot ever on your brand new, but messed-up bike after you’ve dropped it a few times. You’ll also look really dumb with a badass race bike that you stall 15 times at a red light before you can get into gear. Or even better, how about a new R6 that you can’t ride more than 15mph around a turn because you don’t know how to counter-steer correctly? Yeah, your gonna be really cool with that bike, huh? Any real rider would give you props for going about learning to ride the *correct* way (i.e. on a learner bike). If you’re stressed about impressing someone with a “cool” bike, or embarrassed about being on smaller bike, then your not “mature enough” to handle the responsibility of ANY motorcycle. Try a bicycle. After you've grow-up (“matured”), revisit the idea of something with an engine.

7. "Don’t Ask for Advice if You Don't to Hear a Real Answer".

A common pattern:
1. Newbie asks for advice on a 1st bike (Newbie wants to hear certain answers)
2. Experienced rider’s advise Newbie against a 600cc bike for a first ride (This is not what Newbie wanted to hear).
3. Newbie says and thinks, "Others mess up while learning, but that wont happen to me" (As if Newbie is invincible, holds superpowers, never makes mistakes, has a “level head”, or has a skill set that exceeds the majority of the world, etc).
4. Experienced riders explain why a “level head” isn’t enough. You also need SKILL, which can ONLY be gained via experience. (Newbie thinks he has innate motorcycle skills)
5. Newbie makes up excuses as to why he is “mature” enough to handle a 600cc bike”. (Skill drives motorcycles, not maturity)
6. Newbie, with no knowledge about motorcycles, totally disregards all the advice he asked for in the first place. (Which brings us right back to the VERY FIRST point I made about “knowledge of subject matter”).
7. Newbie goes out and buys a R6, CBR, GSX, 6R, etc. Newbie is scared of the power. Being scared of your bike is the LAST thing you want. Newbie gets turned-off to motorcycles, because of fear, and never gets to really experience all the fun that they truly can be. Or worse, Newbie gets in a serious accident.
8. Newbie was actually never really looking for serious advice anyway. What he really wanted was validation and approval of a choice he was about to make or had already consciously made. When he received real advice instead of validation he became defensive about his ability to handle a modern sport bike as first ride. Validation of a poor decision isn’t going to replace scratched bodywork on your bike. It isn’t going put broken bones back together. It isn’t going graft shredded skin back onto your body. It isn’t going to teach you to ride a motorcycle the correct way. However, solid advice from experienced riders, when heeded, can help to avoid some of these issues.

I’m not trying to be harsh. I’m being real. Look all over the net. You’ll see veteran after veteran telling new riders NOT to get a 600cc bike for a first ride. You’ll even see pros saying to start small. Why? Because we hate new riders? Because we don't want others to have cool bikes? Because we want to smash your dreams? Nothing could be further from the truth. The more riders the better (assuming there not squids)! The reason people like me and countless others spend so much time trying to dissuade new riders from 600cc bikes is because we actually care about you. We don't want to see people get hurt. We don't want to see more people die in senseless accidents that could have been totally avoided with a little logic and patients. We want the “sport” to grow in a safe, healthy, and sane way. We WANT you to be around to ride that R6, CBR600RR, GSX-1000, Habayasu, etc that you desire so badly. However, we just want you to be able to ride it in a safe manner that isn’t going to be a threat to yourself or others. A side note, you may see people on the net and elsewhere saying “600cc bike are OK to start with”. Look a bit deeper when you see this. The vast majority of people making these statements are new riders themselves. If you follow their advice you’ve entered into a situation of the blind leading the blind. This is not something you want to do with motorcycles. You may also hear bike dealers saying that a 600cc is a good starter bike. They are trying to make money off you. Don’t listen.

8. HELP IS ON THE WAY!!!

Speaking of help, this is a great time to plug the MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) course. The MSF course is an AMAZING learning opportunity for new riders. The courses are offered all over the USA. A link for their web site is listed at the bottom of this post (or do a Goggle search and check you local RMV web page.). The MSF course assumes no prior knowledge of motorcycles and teaches the basics of how to ride a bike with out killing yourself (and NO, just because you passed the MSF course it dose NOT mean your ready for an R6, GSX, CBR, etc). They provide motorcycles and helmets for the course. It is by far THE BEST way to start a life-long relationship with motorcycles. In some areas if you pass the course your motorcycle license will then be directly mailed to you. This means that you DON’T HAVE TO GO TO THE RMV, AT ALL!!!). That alone should be enough reason to take the course. Also, in some states you will get a discount on your insurance after you’ve taken the course. But wait, there is more! Some manufactures (Honda, Yamaha, etc) offer rebates if you take the course and then buy one of their bikes. Check their web sites / local dealers for details. I can’t plug the MSF course enough. It the best deal going for new riders. Period.

By the way, the short answer to the question, “What should I get for a first bike?” is as follows;
1. First choice, a used bike that is 500cc or under. A new 500cc bike is good, but it would suck if you dropped it. Plus, it will depreciate in value the second you drive off the dealers parking lot…not good when you want to resell it for that brand new R6, GSX600, CBR600, etc.
2. Any used OLDER 600cc sport bike (like 1980’s, early 1990’s).
3. Go here http://www.clarity.net/adam/buying-bike.html for the most compressive guide on “how to buy a used bike” that has ever been written.

Good “sport” type bikes for a first ride are as follows:
Honda: early 1990's Honda *** F3, *** 599
Kawasaki: Ninja 250cc, Ninja 500cc, early 1990’s ZX-6E or ZZR600.
Suzuki: GS500E, early 1990’s Katana 600cc, SV650*, SV650s*
Yamaha: early 1990’s Yamaha YZF600R*

*Suzuki’s SV650 and Yamaha’s YZF-600R can be quite a handful for a new rider, but they can also make great bikes.
4. Any other used “standard” style motorcycle.

Also, a GREAT book to check out is “The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Motorcycles, 3rd edition”. The book coves everything from picking out a first bike, simple repair, anatomy of an engine, how to buy a used bike, riding gear, tips for surviving on the road, racing, etc. You can check this book out almost any major bookstore, www.amazon.com, or www.idiotsguides.com MY ADAVICE FOR ANYONE LOOKING TO GET INTO MOTORCYCLES WOULD BE TO BUY THIS BOOK AND READ IT COVER TO COVER ABOUT 2 OR 3 TIMES. AFTER YOU HAVE DONE THAT, THEN TAKE THE MSF COURSE. You’ll go into the course with some great information that will greatly enrich and hasten your learning experience. It will also give you a HUGE advantage on the written test at the conclusion of the MSF course. Trust me on this one, buy the book. At the very least, go hang out at Barnes & Nobel for an afternoon and read as much of the book as you can until they kick you out of the store.

I haven’t even mentioned riding gear. Get it. Wear it. People who wear tank tops, flip-flops, and shorts while riding don’t look so cool when it comes time for a skin-graft (or when a bee goes up their shorts). There are two types of motorcycle rides: those who have crashed, and those who will. Dress for the crash, not the ride.

A number of people have emailed me recently and asked the following question, “I have ridden a friends street bike a few times, and grew up riding off-road bikes. With this history, would I be OK on a modern 600cc bike?” The answer is “No”. Off-road and street riding are totally different worlds. Granted, someone with off-road history knows things like shift patterns, how to use a clutch, etc but the power, weight, and handling of street bikes are a different ball game altogether."

-chr|s sedition
Boston, MA

DLIT
06-17-2008, 06:37 PM
Blah blah blah. How many times are we gonna hear this crap? Maybe my attitude is shitty because I got a brand new R6 for my first bike and I made it out okay, but how many times is the horse gonna be beat? The problem is people in the market don't come across articles like this and they buy it because they have friends that will tell them to get it or because, until now, the 250's looked like trash. I know when I bought my new R6 I knew I had to respect it, but wasn't aware of how much it can bite in the first place. The thing that's the deciding factor if it's gonna be an "expesive suicide" or not is the rider's brain.

rider76
06-17-2008, 06:49 PM
Don't forget douchebag salesmen at stealerships..... I have witnessed this dicks direct people straight to literbikes, to get the bigger sale.. they tell them to "take a safety course and you will be good to go" " grow into this bike instead of a girls bike" or " mostly women and old people buy 250s get a mans bike".

DLIT
06-17-2008, 06:52 PM
Don't forget douchebag salesmen at stealerships..... I have witnessed this dicks direct people straight to literbikes, to get the bigger sale.. they tell them to "take a safety course and you will be good to go" " grow into this bike instead of a girls bike" or " mostly women and old people buy 250s get a mans bike".

So true.

itgirl
06-17-2008, 07:41 PM
Blah blah blah. How many times are we gonna hear this crap? Maybe my attitude is shitty because I got a brand new R6 for my first bike and I made it out okay, but how many times is the horse gonna be beat?

...and with quite an ego as well. not everyone will be as lucky as you were though. no harm in trying to talk sense into people.

ceo012384
06-17-2008, 07:52 PM
The bike doesn't matter as much, it's the rider. If the person doesn't have the right attitude, the only question is how long the brain smear marks are going to be.... 100mph down to 0mph or 150mph down to 0mph.

This thread says I did everything wrong, wouldn't progress quickly, wouldn't develop my skills, and would ride outside my abilities. Hmm...

DLIT
06-17-2008, 08:43 PM
...and with quite an ego as well. not everyone will be as lucky as you were though. no harm in trying to talk sense into people.

Whatever.

MEDIC
06-17-2008, 10:21 PM
Well unlike the above comments , I think it's a great write up. I started out on a '06 R6 and yes I made out ok , a few low sides ending up in scratched up plastics and then finally totalling it out at the track But I feel like I would have done much better on a 250-500 cc machine.
would I have bought anything different if I would have known now what I do ..... Prob not but it's people like yourself that try to make a difference that could possibly save one from the agony of an expensive ER visit or replacing expensive plastics.

Dave
06-18-2008, 12:47 AM
i dont buy it, i started on an old 600 but jumped up to the 954 early with no ill effects. actually i was thinking about it today during my ride and i was thinking that in some cases it may be better to jump early while you still have a healthy fear of the bike. 600s and 1000s deliver power so different that id really hate to see what happens when a 600 guy jumps on one for the first time and treats it the same

Dnyce
06-18-2008, 01:36 AM
600s and 1000s deliver power so different that id really hate to see what happens when a 600 guy jumps on one for the first time and treats it the same

no1 ever mentions this. you have to rape a 600 (14k), but you can just finger a liter and get the same result.

OneSickPsycho
06-18-2008, 07:37 AM
A little different perspective... Have you ever met someone that was a skilled rider who regretted starting out on a 250 or 500? I haven't.

Rider
06-18-2008, 08:33 AM
I started out on a 750 and was fine. Of course I bought my bike before I joined any forums and I didn't know anyone who rode sport bikes at the time. I just wanted to ride. I was also ALOT more mature than most people buying a street bike for the first time.

Dnyce
06-18-2008, 11:48 AM
A little different perspective... Have you ever met someone that was a skilled rider who regretted starting out on a 250 or 500? I haven't.

my msf instructor. he gets down in the canyons on his goldwing, draggin footrest lol. although hes old, so when he told us go buy the biggest bike we can afford, i dont think he meant sportbikes.

he started on a cb350 and within two weeks he took it back for a 750 two stroke or somethin liter equivalent for the time period. i stopped listening, dont remember the rest, that was like 5yrs ago

Cutty72
06-18-2008, 11:55 AM
After track day one, I can say when track riding, starting out smaller will definatly improve your abilities more.
I found myself "making up" for my poor technique with the motor in the straights.
With a 600 or smaller one would be forced to learn better cornering to get the same lap times.

Dnyce
06-18-2008, 12:02 PM
i started to post somethin, but fuck this topic.

new 250's look sweet, and theyre cheaper than most used 600ss
problem solved.

DLIT
06-18-2008, 12:13 PM
The new 250's are tight, I have one in my garage. They're extremely fun, but I think they're fun because I know that I can hop on my 600 at any time. But if I had it as a first bike, I think I would get sick of how slow it is pretty fast...unless I brought it to the track, which most people don't. If you ever think your bike is slow, just track it and you'll either hate it or have a new-found love for it. It opens even more challenges for you to tackle.

NeonspeedRT
06-18-2008, 01:03 PM
my msf instructor. he gets down in the canyons on his goldwing, draggin footrest lol. although hes old, so when he told us go buy the biggest bike we can afford, i dont think he meant sportbikes.


If your MSF instructor really told you that, then it's time to retire from instructing. Thats not what the MSF teaches or believes in.

ceo012384
06-18-2008, 04:41 PM
After track day one, I can say when track riding, starting out smaller will definatly improve your abilities more.
I found myself "making up" for my poor technique with the motor in the straights.
With a 600 or smaller one would be forced to learn better cornering to get the same lap times.
This may be true if you only gauge your progress with lap times, but that is a silly thing to do anyways. I only barely started looking at them recently, and I still don't use them much. Smoothness and lines are a million times more important than laptimes. Pictures and video are priceless tools to help you gauge your progress.

One issue is that very small displacement bikes take very different lines and don't brake as much. Learning to brake hard and trailbrake is an important skill.

A 600 is not a bad bike to learn to ride on the track.

Cutty72
06-18-2008, 07:53 PM
This may be true if you only gauge your progress with lap times, but that is a silly thing to do anyways. I only barely started looking at them recently, and I still don't use them much. Smoothness and lines are a million times more important than laptimes. Pictures and video are priceless tools to help you gauge your progress.

One issue is that very small displacement bikes take very different lines and don't brake as much. Learning to brake hard and trailbrake is an important skill.

A 600 is not a bad bike to learn to ride on the track.

that's my point. Me learning on the 1125 is not the best. I can compensate with shear power.

Crazy
06-18-2008, 09:47 PM
blah blah blah... been there done that (I'm still on a "beginner bike", after a 250). people are going to get what they want and can pay for in the end, the best we can do is steer them towards the gear, get them to take the MSF, and try to give them some sort of understanding/ respect of the power of their bike.

No Worries
06-18-2008, 11:22 PM
Take a look at the horsepower/torque curves of mid-90's 600's. March, 1995 issue of Motorcyclist compared 600's and listed top torque average of 43 lb./ft. at 9,500, and horsepower around 90 at 11,500. Look at the latest 600 comparison I could find, the June, 2003 issue of Motorcyclist. Torque averages around 45 at 11,500, and horsepower averages around 105 at 13,000. The latest 600's are probably higher.

Anybody see a trend? The torque's about the same, but peaks 2,000 rpm higher on the newer bikes. Torque is what pulls you away from a stop. Torque is what newbies need. The lower in the rpm-band it occurs, the easier to ride from stop signs and around curves.

The racers are saying "what about the weight? What about the horsepower? Okay, the 1995's averaged 465 pounds, wet of course. The weights were thrown off by the heavy-487 pound Suzuki RF600R (the 600 Gixxer wasn't produced in 95). The 2003's averaged 425 pounds, thrown off by the "heavy" 445 pound 600RR. Who cares about horsepower on the street.

But even with the extra weight, those older 600's would be much easier for a newbie to learn on and enjoy, than the peaky, newer 600's. I would recommend an old F3 for a newbie, or even get one myself.