I hope you die Polaris

[Gas Man]

From Cyril's Blog (http://www.cyrilhuzeblog.com/2010/12/25/fast-motorcycle-industry-news-38/#more-58226)

Polaris Industries Inc. has informed state of Wisconsin officials that it will begin the layoff of nearly 500 employees from its plants in Osceola on March 1, 2011. Medina, Minn.-based Polaris announced last May that it was exiting the Polk County operations in Osceola under a realignment of manufacturing operations that includes establishing a plant in Mexico and upgrades at factories in Roseau, Minn., and Spirit Lake, Iowa.


I wish them terrible sales and craptastic new year. Taking manufacturing out of this country. F them!

[tallywacker]

Everyone say it.... THANKS NAFTA!!!!

[smileyman]

even more corporate greed. Short term profit with long lasting detriment to our national GDP. Thanks Bildo!

[Amber Lamps]

Yea but there's also the unions and the American worker to blame for this...:idk: Corporate greed? You'd expect to turn a profit if you ran a business wouldn't you?:idk: These aren't charitable organizations you know, if it don't make dollars, it don't make sense.

[Dave]

Yea but there's also the unions and the American worker to blame for this...:idk: Corporate greed? You'd expect to turn a profit if you ran a business wouldn't you?:idk: These aren't charitable organizations you know, if it don't make dollars, it don't make sense.

Yeps

[Homeslice]

But, but.......manufacturing workers ALWAYS made good money, so they have the "right" to KEEP doing so, and the "right" to never need to undergo a career change throughout their entire lives, unlike the rest of us.


<sacarsm off>

[tommymac]

Yea but there's also the unions and the American worker to blame for this...:idk: Corporate greed? You'd expect to turn a profit if you ran a business wouldn't you?:idk: These aren't charitable organizations you know, if it don't make dollars, it don't make sense.

The unions always want it both ways and they never budge on anything then stuff like this happens and whos to blame ;)

[Amber Lamps]

The unions always want it both ways and they never budge on anything then stuff like this happens and whos to blame ;)

Exactly, it really sucks because it's usually the little guy that gets crushed! BTW wishing them a terrible sales year isn't going to do any favors for the other 90% of their workforce.... just saying.:idk:

[Amber Lamps]

But, but.......manufacturing workers ALWAYS made good money, so they have the "right" to KEEP doing so, and the "right" to never need to undergo a career change throughout their entire lives, unlike the rest of us.


<sacarsm off>

People at GM made $60k+ every year without ever graduating high school, with full benefits...until they closed the plant...

[Gas Man]

There is lots of blame to go around but this isn't the answer to the problem.

[Amber Lamps]

There is lots of blame to go around but this isn't the answer to the problem.

They can't cut wages/benefits without a strike... if your boss came to you and said that they need to cut your salary 30% in order to stay in business, what would you say?

[Gas Man]

Can I get a promotion?

[racedoll]

This sucks. I hate that manufacturing is taken out of this country.

The company I work for supplies Polaris though not enough to matter for our bottom line.

[smileyman]

I have no idea if Polaris workers have a union or not. I can tell you that the corps I refer to make a profit certainly. But selling out US jobs for cheaper foreign labor will eventually run them out of customers. No national economy can run off pure consupmtion. There has to be manufacturing, agriculture, and value added. Other wise the 2/3 s of our economy stimulated by consumer consumption stalls out and guess who we belong to then? The people that have the capitol to build and buy.

[Particle Man]

Meanwhile, Arctic Cat is bringing the manufacturing of their engines back INhouse.

[Amber Lamps]

We are so solving the world's social/economic woes here lately...:lol:

Bike sales are down, what would you have them do?:idk:

Btw Mexicans do buy things...just saying. I realize that we are huge but to say that a company will collaspe if they don't manufacture their products here is kinda silly, don't you all think?

There are several products on our shelves and in our homes that are only manufactured overseas. Those companies seem to be doing quite well, thank you very much.

There are several factors that have precipitated our loss of manufacturing in this country. You can't really point at one thing (like NAFTA) and say, "That's the reason". It's a process that has been building for decades. We went from inventing and monopolizing the television market to almost zero presence in under 30 years. Who's fault is that?:idk: When Curtis Mathis rolled the last totally American TV off the line back in the 80s (I think), NAFTA hadn't even been heard of. Yet the manufacture and sale of TVs seems to be flourishing... Gee how is that possible?:wink:

If the time comes when all motorcycles are made overseas, I seriously doubt that they will stop being sold here. What we have done in the past is what we will have to do in the future. Find new products to manufacture and sell...it's really that simple. We were #1 in electronics-not anymore. We were #1 in furniture-not anymore. We were #1 in automobiles-not anymore. We were #1 in motorcycles-not anymore. We can't keep crying over yesterday's spilled milk and continue to try and hold on to the past. Companies have to be run with a eye on the bottom line. Sentimate in business is an almost sure way to guarantee a company's demise. Would you rather they go out of business completely?:idk: Arai made hats, Suzuki made textile machines, Yamaha made pianos, Alpinestars made ski boots, BMW made airplanes, etc... We need to adapt or die, simple as that.

[Amber Lamps]

Meanwhile, Arctic Cat is bringing the manufacturing of their engines back INhouse.

Probably because it makes economic sense...

[Particle Man]

Probably because it makes economic sense...

Yep.

[nhgunnut]

While I hat the idea that 500 more are loosing their jobs, what often gets missed is that probably 10 of thousands of stockholders (that includes peoples pension plans) will either make a bit more or lose a little less.
None of this is new, HD has made sporters in central and south america for a while now as well as opening a plant in India.

[Particle Man]

None of this is new, HD has made sporters in central and south america for a while now as well as opening a plant in India.

But, but, HD is made in the USA and all other makes are EVIL!

[Gas Man]

This sucks. I hate that manufacturing is taken out of this country.


Exactly. When does it stop?

I have no idea if Polaris workers have a union or not. I can tell you that the corps I refer to make a profit certainly. But selling out US jobs for cheaper foreign labor will eventually run them out of customers. No national economy can run off pure consupmtion. There has to be manufacturing, agriculture, and value added. Other wise the 2/3 s of our economy stimulated by consumer consumption stalls out and guess who we belong to then? The people that have the capitol to build and buy.

Exactly as well. We can't just be a nation of consumers. How do we expect to survive when we don't make anything?

Meanwhile, Arctic Cat is bringing the manufacturing of their engines back INhouse.

Probably because it makes economic sense...

Of course it makes sense. They can capitalize on polaris moving their stuff to mexico.

While I hat the idea that 500 more are loosing their jobs, what often gets missed is that probably 10 of thousands of stockholders (that includes peoples pension plans) will either make a bit more or lose a little less.
None of this is new, HD has made sporters in central and south america for a while now as well as opening a plant in India.

The difference... HD does assembly in those countries to sell those assembled bikes in those countries to avoid those countries hefty import taxing. Good move by HD to increase sales in those countries and great move by those countries for securing jobs in their own country. We should take notes.

Don't blame nafta, don't blame the corperations... just blame the govt. A hefty import tax would level the playing field. Stock holders just want more profit, so just make it more profitable to keep jobs here!

[smileyman]

I'm not the least bit concerned with any companies survival. Only the countries survival and protecting our place in the global economy.

Simply, the company pays US workers who are taxed on their income. Then the worker buys goods and services, paying taxes yet again. If they dont earn, no amount of increase in their stock portfolio is gonna make up the difference and the wheel stops rolling.

Foreign workers dont pay us taxes, foreign workers dont spend there money here. US Corporations move their manufacturing out of country so they dont have to pay taxes, infrastructure costs and get cheaper labor. Meanwhile they dodge tarrifs by being 'an American owned subsidiary'. They take more out of our system than they put back. So that to me is greedy and irresponsible.

[Gas Man]

I'm not the least bit concerned with any companies survival. Only the countries survival and protecting our place in the global economy.

Simply, the company pays US workers who are taxed on their income. Then the worker buys goods and services, paying taxes yet again. If they dont earn, no amount of increase in their stock portfolio is gonna make up the difference and the wheel stops rolling.

Foreign workers dont pay us taxes, foreign workers dont spend there money here. US Corporations move their manufacturing out of country so they dont have to pay taxes, infrastructure costs and get cheaper labor. Meanwhile they dodge tarrifs by being 'an American owned subsidiary'. They take more out of our system than they put back. So that to me is greedy and irresponsible.
I love your wisdom...

Does that mean I heart you? I sure hope not.

[smileyman]

I think we are on the same page. And I think some in this thread missunderstand the problem or they would likely be in agreement as well. It is simple stewardship.

I learned along time ago that it isnt the hoarding of money that brings prosperity, it is the circulation that brings prosperity. It has to be collected and reinvested to bloom again.

[Gas Man]

Exactly

[Amber Lamps]

yea well what you guys don't seem to get is that companies hqve to mqke money to be able to invest. Yoi all are acting as if Polaris locked up all of their US operations and moved them overseas. There still thousands of employees for them to worry about. :idk:

Also to the idea that the "government" should impose heavy tariffs on foreign goods...um, do either of you economic geniuses know who pays those fees in the end? WE DO! Basically, instead of American companies making a product that I'd want to buy, you all want to make foriegn motorcycles too expensive so I'll forced to buy crappy US bikes. There you go, let's make things harder on the rest of us to prop up american companies. Great idea!

If Polaris made bikes that people wanted to buy they wouldn't have to lay people off.

[smileyman]

Eventually A.L. No one will be able to afford foreign or domestic if we dont have jobs to earn money. Simple as that.

Polaris is not going out of business, they are doing just what GM and alot of other corporations are doing. and that is maximizing their corporate balance sheet while investing capitol in China, South America, ect. Remember when GM was bankrupt? The paid that stimulus money back awfully quickly for a bankrupt company.
And I am not even touching the quality control issues of having mexicans assembling snow mobiles...

[Amber Lamps]

Eventually A.L. No one will be able to afford foreign or domestic if we dont have jobs to earn money. Simple as that.

Polaris is not going out of business, they are doing just what GM and alot of other corporations are doing. and that is maximizing their corporate balance sheet while investing capitol in China, South America, ect. Remember when GM was bankrupt? The paid that stimulus money back awfully quickly for a bankrupt company.
And I am not even touching the quality control issues of having mexicans assembling snow mobiles...

Uhuh...remember the quality control issues Toyota had recently? Guess where those parts were made...

I don't know about you but I grew up in a family of factory workers and I've worked in factories... Let me ask you this, what difference does it make if the factories are IN Mexico or if Mexicans work in them HERE?:idk: You're not going to convince me that Mexican workers take less pride in their work than American workers...again I've been in these factories. besides, look around your house, I guarantee that you have several things "Hencho en Mexico", some of them a hell of a lot more difficult to assemble than a fricken snowmobile...:lol: To say that Mexicans don't have the same work ethic or skill as American workers is just racist, ignorant and frankly unexpected from someone that I had a great deal of respect for...:sorry:

[anthonyk]

Exactly. When does it stop?


When the premium you pay to keep the work in the US is justified by some increase in quality over offshore workers. I know lots of people like to think that there's always a loss in quality when you send stuff overseas, but it's just not true. Sometimes you get the same quality with lower cost, and in some industries (e.g. programming) you can get better quality overseas.

[Amber Lamps]

When the premium you pay to keep the work in the US is justified by some increase in quality over offshore workers. I know lots of people like to think that there's always a loss in quality when you send stuff overseas, but it's just not true. Sometimes you get the same quality with lower cost, and in some industries (e.g. programming) you can get better quality overseas.

Exactly! I have no idea why people think that good products can't be made overseas? no offense to factory workers but it's not rocket science... I've worked in factories and it is repetetive, mind numbing and BORING!!! Anyone can do it. What we need to do is automate factory work and get busy educating our population better so they don't have to work in factories (or join the military :wink:) just to scrape up a living...

[smileyman]

All of the Toyota recall issues I am familiar with were design related and not QC issues...

Anyway I am not dissing foreign quality or trying to be racist. Mexican craftsman have skills, Italians hand make some of the graetest product ever, and everything I own that says made in Japan is high quality and built with pride.

I do think that companies like GM demand less or maybe expect less from products built overseas.

But that is not my arguement towards shifting jobs outsidethe US. My issue is that without jobs our economy can't turn around. Period.

[Amber Lamps]

All of the Toyota recall issues I am familiar with were design related and not QC issues...

Anyway I am not dissing foreign quality or trying to be racist. Mexican craftsman have skills, Italians hand make some of the graetest product ever, and everything I own that says made in Japan is high quality and built with pride.

I do think that companies like GM demand less or maybe expect less from products built overseas.

But that is not my arguement towards shifting jobs outsidethe US. My issue is that without jobs our economy can't turn around. Period.

Uhuh...as I noted in the other thread, it's alright for you to talk all this mess while you drive your foreign car, ride your bike that is 90% foreign, watch your Korean/Japanese TV, type away on your Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Korean computer... It's a vicious circle and I don't claim to have the answers either. You sure won't catch me riding a Victory anytime in the near future...:lol: I'm certainly not going to buy a product based solely on where it's made either. I will say this, if there are two equal products, at similar price points I will always buy the American made unit but that's as far as I'm willing to go. :sorry:

[azoomm]

You sure won't catch me riding a Victory anytime in the near future...:lol:

I led a demo at a local dealership here a few weeks ago... I'll just politely say it was an interesting day. They are certainly not BMW's

Any of you people complaining actually own businesses?

[Gas Man]

The mexican quality issues are racist. Its a proven fact. Further, a mexican engineer we know on our hhr forum said its not a mexican thing so much as the area of mexico where the hhr is assembled. That state of that area if u will. I can quote it later on a pc if needed.

[smileyman]

I wasnt trying to be racist at all but was making a sarcastic smart ass comment about snowmobiles made ina place that dont get snow. And yes I know Polaris makes products other than snow mobiles.
And wasnt saying BUY American either, buy the best product you can find. period.

American corporations that send jobs overseas still have my disdain tho, you aint talking me out of it either...

[Amber Lamps]

I wasnt trying to be racist at all but was making a sarcastic smart ass comment about snowmobiles made ina place that dont get snow. And yes I know Polaris makes products other than snow mobiles.
And wasnt saying BUY American either, buy the best product you can find. period.

American corporations that send jobs overseas still have my disdain tho, you aint talking me out of it either...

So you are saying that American corporations shouldn't cut their expenses even though we don't buy their products? Oh okay, they should stay "loyal" to us even though we aren't loyal to them. Gotcha. It's all clear to me now, American corporations should keep their factories here and we get to keep buying our cheap products from overseas. You made the point that our economy can't recover unless we have jobs, true but companies can't stay in business if no one buys their products.

[anthonyk]

How about we start by overhauling our education system, so we go back to being the best at making and designing stuff (not necessarily cars and whatnot, either).

I've got a bit of experience hunting for technical/customer support folks, both inside and outside the US. Just as a couple of examples, I've had one center in Dallas, and another in India. The Dallas site was plagued with terrible grammar and spelling, and an awful work ethic. And it was freakin' expensive to boot. The India site has its issues for sure, but the language skills are surprisingly decent, absenteeism is low, and the cost is much, much less. I'm all about keeping jobs in the US, but unless we can get competitive again in the world labor market, we're going to keep missing out on jobs.

[Particle Man]

Of course it makes sense. They can capitalize on polaris moving their stuff to mexico.



AC actually announced their intention to move away from Suzuki powerplants last year; well before Polaris' announcement.

[pickle.of.doom]

Dude imagine how many snowmobiles those mexicans are going to buy now though.....


.. oh wait


they don't know what snow is...

[Amber Lamps]

Dude imagine how many snowmobiles those mexicans are going to buy now though.....


.. oh wait


they don't know what snow is...

Whatever, and I guess that Polaris only makes snowmoblies...DUH!:lol: besides, who cares what the product is really? That's not the point. Foreign companies make a myriad of products I'm sure their workers have no idea what they are for... I've actually often wondered what Chinese workers must think about us while they are producing our junk.:lol:

I only have two points;

1. If we want American companies to manufacture goods here, we have to be economically feasible. We can't expect them to stay here out of some misplaced sense of nationalism or loyalty. it has to make good business sense.

2. If we want American companies to flourish we are going to have to buy their products. Period. If we are all out buying Nissans and Toyotas how in the fuck do you expect GM and Ford to survive? :idk: Quite frankly, SM, if you really gave a damn about American companies/jobs you would have told your wife that she was going to have to "make due" with an American car. What's with the SRX?

Now before you all consider me to be a hypocrite, I'm not the one complaining about Polaris...:wink: I think they did what they had to to stay in business...simple economics and business.

You can't have it both ways...

[pickle.of.doom]

Well, maybe its time to give the power to the American scab workers. Whatever the job is, there is probably someone willing to do it for a lot less than the current person is, and it will make it much more feasible for a company to make a profit here.

It worked in Gung Ho

[tommymac]

Well, maybe its time to give the power to the American scab workers. Whatever the job is, there is probably someone willing to do it for a lot less than the current person is, and it will make it much more feasible for a company to make a profit here.

It worked in Gung Ho

yeah but those are all the illegal mexicans :lol:

[nhgunnut]

Exactly. When does it stop?



Exactly as well. We can't just be a nation of consumers. How do we expect to survive when we don't make anything?





Of course it makes sense. They can capitalize on polaris moving their stuff to mexico.



The difference... HD does assembly in those countries to sell those assembled bikes in those countries to avoid those countries hefty import taxing. Good move by HD to increase sales in those countries and great move by those countries for securing jobs in their own country. We should take notes.

Don't blame nafta, don't blame the corperations... just blame the govt. A hefty import tax would level the playing field. Stock holders just want more profit, so just make it more profitable to keep jobs here!
The Central and South American Sportsters are being sold right here in the good ole US of A and count on the parts Made in India to make there way here to the US . Protectionism always Fails ask the USSR oh wait you can't. Countries that can't sell their products here won't sell our products there.
If we want American Companies to be competitive American worker has to be competitive. That means we lower his/her overhead. It is our age of entitlement that is killing us, The insanity that manual labor is worth 60k a year is a Huge part of the problem.
If Harley GM Ford or Chrysler wants to sell me a Product Produce something that preforms like I want it to, looks good, is priced reasonably and has a good service culture. NONE of them do. Their labor is over priced , administrative overhead bloated and with with damn few exceptions they all produce mediocre at best products. In the past 10 years we have owned Chrysler products GM products and ford Products, We have also owned Hyundai, Honda and Nissan Service in my experience GM Service was the worst Nissan second Chrysler third worst(it is telling that it is Chrysler best chance of survival is Fix It Again Tony FIAT) a close third and followed by Ford who I would rate fair (oddly enough they didn't need government money) Honda and the absolute best was Hyundai.
My experience with Polaris is with their Victory arm I like the product but like all American bikes I have ridden (HD Indian Victory and Borgett) When compared to their Japanese or European Counterparts they are crude and Unsophisticated and all are Overpriced by comparison. (it isn't the cost of labor my Goldwing is made right here in the good old USA and no American company gets Close to the sophistication or performance without spending 10k more) Worse NO American Company has made a sportbike that is competitive (when Buell got close HD killed them) Even the Korean bikes ar better in the sport market.
I saw hope a few years ago when Polaris had a chance to purchase a 33% of KTM but they blew it.
American companies want to be competitive get labor costs down (UAW is killing us) get Administrative Overhead Down. $1. a year salaries with Merit based bonus would help get something out of CEO's and managers.
Get the Government off the backs of Business and out of the pockets of the working guy.

[Particle Man]

Whatever, and I guess that Polaris only makes snowmoblies...Sure, but who cares about anything other than sleds and bikes :lol:

[Gas Man]

Sportsters are made in Kansas. India plant isn't making anything, only assembly. I'm sorry but your information is wrong.

[nhgunnut]

Sportsters are made in Kansas. India plant isn't making anything, only assembly. I'm sorry but your information is wrong.
Yes they are being made in Kansas but not all of them and the CA and SA are for sale right here in the good ole USA. India may not make anything yet you are right but no doubt they will.
Doesn't change the fact that the product is outsourced. Or that the Product simply isn't something I am willing to settle for (HD Victory or Indian)
BTW I am not slamming HD here they are simply doing as the market and business Demands

[Gas Man]

I just can't believe any brazil sportsters are running around the streets of the US. It would be suicide to HD to have that happen and who that bought a HD would want that over the Kansas built one? A company like HD that has crammed down our throats about buying their american bike can't go and give us something from out of the states. Many have accepted that some of the parts are made outside, mostly the electronics. But the overall % is USA.

And I don't have a problem with HD expanding globally. There is a demand for them there as the known "American Cult Bike" if you watch any global tv about HD. LOL.

Further it really should be known that it's the polaris side that is doing the move, currently all their Victory line up is still here in the states.

[smileyman]

I only have two points;

1. If we want American companies to manufacture goods here, we have to be economically feasible. We can't expect them to stay here out of some misplaced sense of nationalism or loyalty. it has to make good business sense.

2. If we want American companies to flourish we are going to have to buy their products. Period. If we are all out buying Nissans and Toyotas how in the fuck do you expect GM and Ford to survive? :idk: Quite frankly, SM, if you really gave a damn about American companies/jobs you would have told your wife that she was going to have to "make due" with an American car. What's with the SRX?

You can't have it both ways...[/QUOTE]

1. Business sense is not cutting your own throat. Mexicans aint going to be the booming sales market for Polaris products. China isnt gonna be huge in the sales profitability side for GM. And look at the Camaro, assembled in Canada and almost a loss leader for GM. In the meantime fewer sales here because they are contributing to the recession andunemployment rate.

2. The Rogue is assembled here same as the SRX with more features and options for almost 20,000 less. The wife wanted the Caddy but without a better income source than me, who makes less than most union factory workers do, she has to get by with the Rogue...

[Amber Lamps]

I only have two points;

1. If we want American companies to manufacture goods here, we have to be economically feasible. We can't expect them to stay here out of some misplaced sense of nationalism or loyalty. it has to make good business sense.

2. If we want American companies to flourish we are going to have to buy their products. Period. If we are all out buying Nissans and Toyotas how in the fuck do you expect GM and Ford to survive? :idk: Quite frankly, SM, if you really gave a damn about American companies/jobs you would have told your wife that she was going to have to "make due" with an American car. What's with the SRX?

You can't have it both ways...

1. Business sense is not cutting your own throat. Mexicans aint going to be the booming sales market for Polaris products. China isnt gonna be huge in the sales profitability side for GM. And look at the Camaro, assembled in Canada and almost a loss leader for GM. In the meantime fewer sales here because they are contributing to the recession andunemployment rate.

2. The Rogue is assembled here same as the SRX with more features and options for almost 20,000 less. The wife wanted the Caddy but without a better income source than me, who makes less than most union factory workers do, she has to get by with the Rogue...[/QUOTE]

Hahaha! Good enough, that totally goes back to my original point about american companies making products that we'll actually buy as well. This is a problem with many sides to it for sure but to "force" companies to manufacture here even when it makes poor business sense isn't the answer imho.

[smileyman]

I never really championed protectionism or isolationism. I am full against the government telling private business what to do.
I do wish the corporations were responible citizens. They should police themselves like hunters should when conserving game. You cant expect to be able to shoot every deer in a season or fish a lake stock out and hope to have anything to harvest next year. Same thing.
i agree with your statement above, and you can't address overhead to fix your corp. profitablility without looking to Sr managements compensation, poor product development, piss poor quality control.

its like cutting off a leg because its using to much blood flow. Cheaper foreign labor will help save you dough, but look at the whole effect to tax tables, infrastructure, ancillary services, ect. Maybe Polaris sees benefits in the short term but why are the struggling to start with? Why is GM? Why is every company outsourcing call centers to the middle east? I think we have alternatives that would benefit us all.