Congresswoman shot in Arizona

[udman]

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot in the head outside a grocery store in Tucson while holding a public event, Arizona Public Media reported Saturday.

The Democrat, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting a "Congress on Your Corner" event at the Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

At least nine other people, including members of her staff, were hurt. Giffords was transported to University Medical Center in Tucson. Her condition was not immediately known.

Giffords was talking to a couple when the suspect ran up firing indiscriminately and then ran off, Michaels said.

The suspect was tackled by a bystander and taken into custody. He was not injured.

Giffords was first elected to represent Arizona's 8th District in 2006. The "Congress on Your Corner" events allow constituents to present their concerns directly to her.

More details to come.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona?ft=1&f=1001&sc=tw&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[goof2]

Just saw this as well. I'm curious to see what the shooter's issue was. No matter what it turns out to be the shooter should still fry.

[udman]

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona

NPR now saying 7 are dead and that the shooter is a "late teen" or in early 20's...

[udman]

...and the message boards are already blaming Sarah Palin and Sharon Angle

A K (Gumboz) wrote:

We don't know anything about the gunman or his motives. But we do know that Rep Giffords was one of the Democratic House members "targeted" with a "gun sight" on Sarah Palin's map. She said, "You know what to do." And now she'll say she's shocked -- SHOCKED -- that anybody would do such a thing.

Saturday, January 08, 2011 2:13:32 PM

Robin McMullen (RobinMcM) wrote:

Is Congresswoman Giffords's death one of the "Second Amendment remedies" that Sharron Angle advocated?

Saturday, January 08, 2011 2:13:18 PM

[goof2]

...and the message boards are already blaming Sarah Palin and Sharon Angle

I would have been surprised if they didn't, though that kind of speculation has been less than reliable in the past.

[udman]

Apparently Glenn Beck too...

im2fools 02:23 PM

Hey, Glenn Beck. Fuck you.

[Dave]

...and the message boards are already blaming Sarah Palin and Sharon Angle

it sickens me that this gal aint even cold yet before folks started trying to pull political value out of it. you should hear this douchbag david fitzsimmons comments on cnn.

[pauldun170]

someone may be taking something too seriously.

http://www.takebackthe20.com/
http://www.takebackthe20.com/candidates

[udman]

Hey ya'll should all stop hatin...unless you hate Republicans that is.
Robert Bruce (popculturizm) wrote:

As of 5 minutes ago (2:30pm EST) the CongressWoman was reported to have been still alive. I believe that anyone making a hate comment on this board needs to take a long hard look in the mirror, The Left is not known for being Gun Owners or Carriers, and the Right (extremists like the Neo-Cons and T-Partiers) are known for this, with out the facts I would not be surprise if the perpetrator of this act would not be a "right-winger" who else who carry a "Semi-automatic" weapon. Having said that - prayers should be sent out to those who have lost their lives, their families and for the state of this country, simply a despicable act!!!

Saturday, January 08, 2011 2:37:03 PM

[Avatard]

it sickens me that this gal aint even cold yet before folks started trying to pull political value out of it. you should hear this douchbag david fitzsimmons comments on cnn.

I haven't heard the story yet, and I haven't clicked on any links yet, BUT:

If another politico indeed called for this woman's death, I wouldn't characterize this as "people trying to put political value on it". It's already there.

If Palin did call for this woman's death, even if essentially only by suggestive graphic and the veiled suggestion of "you know what to do", then she should be clearly charged for complicity in any murders committed as a result of what could only be characterized as a rather blatant public incitement and inducement of murder.

I believe in free speech, but you can't yell fire in a theatre. Speech designed to cause death and harm to others is not protected. That's actually technically conspiracy/complicity to murder.

If this woman dies, Palin should be charged, if she indeed made these overt murder suggestions in a public forum.

I think it's fair to say that given her rather high public profile, she should be well aware that this type of incitement would likely lead to violence.

[udman]

I haven't heard the story yet, and I haven't clicked on any links yet, BUT:

If another politico indeed called for this woman's death, I wouldn't characterize this as "people trying to put political value on it". It's already there.

If Palin did call for this woman's death, even if essentially only by suggestive graphic and the veiled suggestion of "you know what to do", then she should be clearly charged for complicity in any murders committed as a result of what could only be characterized as a rather blatant public incitement and inducement of murder.

I believe in free speech, but you can't yell fire in a theatre. Speech designed to cause death and harm to others is not protected. That's actually technically conspiracy/complicity to murder.

If this woman dies, Palin should be charged, if she indeed made these overt murder suggestions in a public forum.

She wanted her voted out of office. Not Killed. But go ahead with the casting blame dumbass...

[Avatard]

Maybe you need to brush up on law, "dumbass".

Go use the word "bomb" in airport, asshole. See how far you get. Be sure to tell them you're only joking.

...But I'm the dumbass?

:lmao:

Douche.

[pauldun170]

If the reason is political and related to some website or message put out by Palin, its not because of Palin that this women is dead.
It would be because of the type of idiot people like Palin attract as followers.

However thats just speculation

[udman]

You're right. Arrest that man!!!

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/14/obama-if-they-bring-a-knife-to-the-fight-we-bring-a-gun/

Dumberasseser

[Avatard]

You don't yell fire in a theatre.

You don't say "bomb" at the airport.

If you're a politician, you don't even say the word assassination, let alone make jokes, or veiled suggestions about the assassinations of politicians.

It's EXACTLY the same thing, and it is NOT protected speech.

[Dave]

I haven't heard the story yet, and I haven't clicked on any links yet, BUT:

If another politico indeed called for this woman's death, I wouldn't characterize this as "people trying to put political value on it". It's already there.

If Palin did call for this woman's death, even if essentially only by suggestive graphic and the veiled suggestion of "you know what to do", then she should be clearly charged for complicity in any murders committed as a result of what could only be characterized as a rather blatant public incitement and inducement of murder.

I believe in free speech, but you can't yell fire in a theatre. Speech designed to cause death and harm to others is not protected. That's actually technically conspiracy/complicity to murder.

If this woman dies, Palin should be charged, if she indeed made these overt murder suggestions in a public forum.

I think it's fair to say that given her rather high public profile, she should be well aware that this type of incitement would likely lead to violence.

i was referring to the idiot political cartoonist they were interviewing on cnn who immediately blamed the right, america's "gun fetish", and said this was an inevitable event. try not to let your personal prejudices lead you into dumb statements

[askmrjesus]

However thats just speculation

Due to the low levels of carotene in desert climates, many Arizona democrats are mistaken for grizzly bears.

Palin + poor dietary habits = Murder.

JC

[Avatard]

You're right. Arrest that man!!!

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/14/obama-if-they-bring-a-knife-to-the-fight-we-bring-a-gun/

Dumberasseser

Wow, you're fucking stretching, huh?

I suppose if someone got hurt in a melee that might have ensued, a case could be made that he was partially at fault...although you're reaching like a motherfucker here, and it would be laughed at in court.

This scenario, not so laughable.

[Avatard]

i was referring to the idiot political cartoonist they were interviewing on cnn who immediately blamed the right, america's "gun fetish", and said this was an inevitable event. try not to let your personal prejudices lead you into dumb statements

Again, I have no knowledge of this other than what appears here.

I do know that if what was said here about what was supposedly posted on Palin's site is true, then that's incitement to murder, and not protected speech.

[goof2]

Maybe the shooter was motivated by Palin/Angle/Beck or maybe he wasn't. At this point guessing about the shooter's motives is nothing more than that, a guess. Don't forget when the Democratic Party headquarters in Colorado was vandalized. Democrats and the media immediately blamed Republicans who opposed healthcare reform for the act. As it turned out it had been carried out by a former Democratic canvasser apparently trying to make it look like a Republican. I am in no way saying that is what happened here, but trying to logically figure out the motivation for what is ultimately an illogical act can lead to the wrong conclusions.

The shooter is alive. I'm sure we will hear soon enough what motivated him.

[goof2]

This scenario, not so laughable.

Still pretty laughable.:shrug:

[Avatard]

Hmmm. One was a sports joke, no one got hurt.

This is a situation where people died.

Yeah, I suppose it's hilarious.

[askmrjesus]

At least we're still better than Pakistan...

JC

[Avatard]

Yeah, but the distinction is kinda fading, no?

[pauldun170]

Jared Lee LOUGHNER

"young, mid-to-late 20s (23), white, clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing."

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

[tallywacker]

Here is his youtube page

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

[Dave]

Jared Lee LOUGHNER

"young, mid-to-late 20s (23), white, clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing."

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

very republican sounding kid there :rolleyes:

[Avatard]

Jared Lee LOUGHNER

"young, mid-to-late 20s (23), white, clean-shaven with short hair and wearing dark clothing."

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

Yeah, I'm sure he was a shy, quiet kid, who kept mostly to himself...

[tallywacker]

Leftist the first to post a fake facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001935064664

[Dave]

Leftist the first to post a fake facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001935064664

lmao

[Avatard]

Leftist the first to post a fake facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001935064664

Needs "likes" for Sharron Angle.

[goof2]

Hmmm. One was a sports joke, no one got hurt.

This is a situation where people died.

Yeah, I suppose it's hilarious.

Your legal scenario is what I was referring to as laughable.:shrug:

[Avatard]

Yeah, funny guy, he shot a 9 year old, dead. It's hilarious, legally and otherwise.

Oh wait, no it isn't.

[goof2]

Yeah, funny guy, he shot a 9 year old, dead. It's hilarious, legally and otherwise.

Oh wait, no it isn't.

Is that the legal scenario you posted? Sure doesn't sound like it.:shrug:

[Particle Man]

Holy fuck (about the original post and the turn it's taken)

[Avatard]

He used a fucking auto, or semi-auto too, right? That will no doubt be used by rabid anti-gun fanatics to further that agenda. Fucking great.

[Kaneman]

He used a fucking auto, or semi-auto too, right? That will no doubt be used by rabid anti-gun fanatics to further that agenda. Fucking great.

Believe it was a semi-automatic handgun....no different than a revolver really.

[Trip]

Anyone have a decent reference for what palin and angle did? I see the comments, but would rather see an accurate representation, because I am unaware of this story.

Was it just a map targeting elections they wanted or was there more?

Terrible about the original story. Hope it wasn't something as stupid as politics that caused this kid to do this.

[askmrjesus]

He used a fucking auto, or semi-auto too, right? That will no doubt be used by rabid anti-gun fanatics to further that agenda. Fucking great.


The gun that was shown on his facebook page was a semi-auto pistol.

JC

[Avatard]

Watch the buzzword "semi-automatic" be in nearly every headline starting in 3; 2; 1

[Kaneman]

Watch the buzzword "semi-automatic" be in nearly every headline starting in 3; 2; 1

No kids were killed, it won't happen this time.

[askmrjesus]

Hope it wasn't something as stupid as politics that caused this kid to do this.

His youtube stuff seemed tea partyish to me.

"I hate my Community College teachers because they're illiterate and unconstitutional" and "I'm starting my own currency".

Sounds like the bats that flew out of Glen Becks mouth, found a belfry.

JC

[askmrjesus]

No kids were killed, it won't happen this time.

A nine year old was killed, start hoarding bullets.

JC

[Kaneman]

A nine year old was killed, start hoarding bullets.

JC

Man I missed that part. Shit.

[goof2]

Anyone have a decent reference for what palin and angle did? I see the comments, but would rather see an accurate representation, because I am unaware of this story.

Was it just a map targeting elections they wanted or was there more?

Terrible about the original story. Hope it wasn't something as stupid as politics that caused this kid to do this.

Palin had a map with important House seats marked on it using bullseyes. I believe Giffords' seat was one marked on the map.

Sharon Angle said the following on the radio "Our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason, and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government." and also "In fact, Thomas Jefferson said it's good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years. I hope that's not where we're going, but you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies."

[goof2]

His youtube stuff seemed tea partyish to me.

"I hate my Community College teachers because they're illiterate and unconstitutional" and "I'm starting my own currency".

Sounds like the bats that flew out of Glen Becks mouth, found a belfry.

JC

"I went to MEPS and was given a bible even though I told my recruiter I'm an atheist and he put NONE for my religion" sounds kind of leftist though. Either way the brainwashing and mind control aren't integral to either party's platform that I've seen. With the little out so far I'd guess his political affiliation is the insanity party.

[tallywacker]

"I went to MEPS and was given a bible even though I told my recruiter I'm an atheist and he put NONE for my religion" sounds kind of leftist though. Either way the brainwashing and mind control aren't integral to either party's platform that I've seen. With the little out so far I'd guess his political affiliation is the insanity party.

Yeah the guy is just a nutjob.

[Hydrant]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/Hydrant/sarahpac_0.jpg


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/sarah-palins-pac-puts-gun_n_511433.html

[tallywacker]

Naaah she most likely just the Anti-Christ and she will rise to world domination after this.

[tallywacker]

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/azstarnet.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/e/2e/b0f/e2eb0f94-2fb9-11df-8820-001cc4c002e0.image.jpg
Jackie Storrer, right, tries her best to figure out the clues on a giant crossword as Jared Loughner, a volunteer, stands in the background during the Tucson Festival of Books

There he is

[askmrjesus]

Either way the brainwashing and mind control aren't integral to either party's platform that I've seen. With the little out so far I'd guess his political affiliation is the insanity party.

Then again...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535927,00.html

JC

[tallywacker]

Then again...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535927,00.html

JC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82VIy44tDH8

She was anti-immigration. These people don't seem too happy about that.

[Trip]

That's the map, sorry I see no issue with that. There needs to be more to it than that for me to be upset about it. I don't believe in safety nazi sanitizing the world for nutjobs. Nutjobs will go nuts no matter what we do. He would of found another group to make him feel "a part of something" and went nutz on the con side of that.

[goof2]

Then again...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535927,00.html

JC

Do you see the difference between what I said and discussing a bill that never made it out of committee?

[goof2]

That's the map, sorry I see no issue with that. There needs to be more to it than that for me to be upset about it. I don't believe in safety nazi sanitizing the world for nutjobs. Nutjobs will go nuts no matter what we do. He would of found another group to make him feel "a part of something" and went nutz on the con side of that.

But didn't you hear, that map is as good as Palin pulling the trigger herself.:skep:

[tallywacker]

lol...a Arizona Congressman on CNN just said there is blood on Sarah Palin's hands. Lefty's are manning the political battle-stations.

[askmrjesus]

She was anti-immigration. These people don't seem too happy about that.

She was anti unprotected borders.

Not the same thing.

JC

[tallywacker]

=|
If there's no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown.
There's no flag in the constitution.
Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown.
Burn every new and old flag that you see.
Burn your flag!
I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed.
Watch this protest in reverse!
Ask the local police; "What's your illegal activity on duty?".
If you protest the government then there's a new government from protesting.
There's not a new government from protesting.
Thus, you aren't protesting the government.
There's something important in this video: There's no communication to anyone in this location.
You shouldn't be afraid of the stars.
There's a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green. The rarest bird on earth, there's no feathers, but small grey scales all over the body. It's with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there's only one, the gender is not female or male. The wings of this bird are beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die for. If you can see this bird then you will understand. You think this bird is able to chat about a government?
I want you to imagine a comet or meteoroid coming through the atmosphere.
On the other hand, welcome yourself to the desert: Maybe your ability to protest is from the brainwash of the current government structure.

Sounds sane

She was anti unprotected borders.

Not the same thing.

JC

Well of course not

[askmrjesus]

Do you see the difference between what I said and discussing a bill that never made it out of committee?

What I know so far is this:

A. The guy is some form of crazy.

B. He shot a bunch of Democrats, for as yet unknown reasons.

You think he just happened to be driving by the Safeway, and decided to shoot up the parking lot on a bipartisan basis?

I don't think so. The boy had an agenda of some sort.

JC

[Dave]

lol...a Arizona Congressman on CNN just said there is blood on Sarah Palin's hands. Lefty's are manning the political battle-stations.

Aaand with any luck rational people will see this a know how pathetically little they value their own colleague's life and which group of folks has really been breeding hate here. Aw hell who am I kidding? This is the land of the retards.

Did she have no security detail present? All reports say she was shot from "point blank range" and if true the lack/utter failure of security ought to negate the fact that a gun was used

What I know so far is this:

A. The guy is some form of crazy.

B. He shot a bunch of Democrats, for as yet unknown reasons.

You think he just happened to be driving by the Safeway, and decided to shoot up the parking lot on a bipartisan basis?

I don't think so. The boy had an agenda of some sort.

JC

From what I read of him his agenda seems to be against what was convieniantly available

[Avatard]

That's the map, sorry I see no issue with that. There needs to be more to it than that for me to be upset about it. I don't believe in safety nazi sanitizing the world for nutjobs. Nutjobs will go nuts no matter what we do. He would of found another group to make him feel "a part of something" and went nutz on the con side of that.

No, you're right. Nuts will be nuts.

But Politicians should never say anything, or even suggest anything in regards to killing, or assassination, in regards to themselves or others in public. It's just not done. Just like saying "bomb" at the airport. You just don't do that, and adults generally know better.

She has always used incendiary militant language, and that kind of thing feeds freaks. She should know better, but she's profoundly fucking stupid, that bitch.

[tallywacker]

Read this link...

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/murder-in-arizona-live-blogging.html


A former friend of Loughner's has a Twitter feed.

I haven't seen him since '07. Then, he was left wing.

As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy.

he was a pot head & into rock like Hendrix,The Doors, Anti-Flag.

[Avatard]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2041408,00.html

[Avatard]

"Various Palin sites are frantically removing various incendiary materials - which is both gratifying, but also, it seems to me, an acknowledgment of previous rhetorical excess. TakeBackThe20.com is in meltdown, images like these are being removed ASAP, and Palin's Facebook page simply cannot cope with the number of commenters blasting her."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20147e162ddb4970b

[tallywacker]

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20147e162ddb4970b

Wasn't this already posted? It's from june and many people are taking it way out of context.

[Avatard]

Well, Palin's political career is dead.

[tallywacker]

Well, Palin's political career is dead.

Hopefully

[Avatard]

Wasn't this already posted? It's from june and many people are taking it way out of context.

Again, I haven't read too much here. I was quoting what I found relevant from the article you just posted above.

[tallywacker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnNx0WThoF0

This doesn't sound right-wing to me

[Trip]

No, you're right. Nuts will be nuts.

But Politicians should never say anything, or even suggest anything in regards to killing, or assassination, in regards to themselves or others in public. It's just not done. Just like saying "bomb" at the airport. You just don't do that, and adults generally know better.

She has always used incendiary militant language, and that kind of thing feeds freaks. She should know better, but she's profoundly fucking stupid, that bitch.

Politicians have the same right as us and what her staff did with that map is hardly anything to blame an actual attack on her for. This is the pussification of America and you are being the prime example of it. They shouldn't be held accountable for nutjobs. Her little map with target points doesn't mean go kill people and any sane person understands this. Just as selling Grand Theft Auto to kids doesn't mean they should go murder hookers after having sex with them and running people over with cars just for the fun of it. OMG they made battleground references, this is just terrible. People are going to start a war because Ohio is a battleground state.

"Various Palin sites are frantically removing various incendiary materials - which is both gratifying, but also, it seems to me, an acknowledgment of previous rhetorical excess. TakeBackThe20.com is in meltdown, images like these are being removed ASAP, and Palin's Facebook page simply cannot cope with the number of commenters blasting her."

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20147e162ddb4970b

Well yeah, a nutjob went fucking nuts. They are being respectful of the deaths. Me and a friend made a joke website before 9/11 making fun of islamic terrorists. It was about Civil Unrest National Terrorists and the leader was Saddam Eyesmee. I didn't support the nutjobs that did 9/11, but I took down that website in respect to the people that died.

Well, Palin's political career is dead.

We can only hope. No way she would of won president anyway. I don't think she would of even got the repub nomination.

[Avatard]

I'd bet TLC is cancelling her show as we speak.

[Particle Man]

Watch the buzzword "semi-automatic" be in nearly every headline starting in 3; 2; 1
They're probably mad that they can't use "high powered rifle" so "semi-automatic" will have to do.

The media LOVES that one more then semi-auto.

[goof2]

What I know so far is this:

A. The guy is some form of crazy.

B. He shot a bunch of Democrats, for as yet unknown reasons.

You think he just happened to be driving by the Safeway, and decided to shoot up the parking lot on a bipartisan basis?

I don't think so. The boy had an agenda of some sort.

JC

I agree that he had a reason of some sort that made sense to him. That doesn't mean it was political and I'm guessing it isn't going to be anything resembling rational either. If you read back on my posts I haven't made any claim or suggestion about what those reasons may be.

Could he be a right wing tea partying lunatic who did this out of a wildly misguided sense of patriotism? Sure. Could he have done this because the government is responsible for making his bananas too yellow? Sure. At this point it is pure speculation. The guy is alive and his reasons will most likely come out. One thing I will claim is that when they do they still won't make any sense because this is ultimately a senseless act.

Back to what we were discussing. I was asking if you saw the difference between this guy thinking the government was brainwashing people and controlling their minds and what you posted, discussion of potential ramifications of a bill that never made it out of committee.

[goof2]

I'd bet TLC is cancelling her show as we speak.

I didn't read any of the stories but CNN, MSN, and a few other websites have had headlines for the last couple days indicating the show wasn't coming back next year.:shrug:

[derf]

Palin's show was cancelled, or at least not renewed for season 2. The explination given has nothing to do with the shooting

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b219540_sarah_palins_alaska__shot_down_after.html

[goof2]

They're probably mad that they can't use "high powered rifle" so "semi-automatic" will have to do.

The media LOVES that one more then semi-auto.

I get the feeling they love "semi-automatic" more since it allows them to occasionally forget the "semi" and label it an "automatic handgun".

[Avatard]

I didn't read any of the stories but CNN, MSN, and a few other websites have had headlines for the last couple days indicating the show wasn't coming back next year.:shrug:

Well, I'd say her political career is now also officially canceled then.

[Trip]

Well, I'd say her political career is now also officially canceled then.

Did you actually believe she had a shot? I know she was delusional enough to think that, but did you honestly believe she had a shot before this?

[Avatard]

I don't know if she really had a shot [insert tasteless joke here], but I'm about as sick of that cunt as I am sick of the fucking Kardashians, and Justin Beiber.

[goof2]

Well, I'd say her political career is now also officially canceled then.

I doubt this will have much of an effect on Palin's political career unless the shooter gives "I did it for Sarah!" as his reason. I also didn't think she had a shot at winning the Republican nomination before this either though.

[Trip]

I don't know if she really had a shot [insert tasteless joke here], but I'm about as sick of that cunt as I am sick of the fucking Kardashians, and Justin Beiber.

Honestly I think for the Democrats, they should want her in the election. The republicans are just as tired of that bitch and the right leaning moderates won't vote for that bitch. They would go Obama in a big way. He would coast to victory easily against Palin.

I would vote Obama over Palin.

[Avatard]

I hear ya, and if I was really partisan, I'd probably be pulling for her, for just that reason. I'd rather see someone with a real chance run, but who is even remotely legit on the other team?

[goof2]

Did she have no security detail present? All reports say she was shot from "point blank range" and if true the lack/utter failure of security ought to negate the fact that a gun was used

From what I understand most members of the House don't travel home with security unless their is a credible threat against them. The Capitol Police, who provide security for them, said they were aware of no threats against Giffords otherwise they would have sent security with her.

[Trip]

I hear ya, and if I was really partisan, I'd probably be pulling for her, for just that reason. I'd rather see someone with a real chance run, but who is even remotely legit on the other team?

Honestly, there is no one I would vote for, I am tired of everyone that has the slightest shot.

Uh oh, Avy. The media is going to run with this one too.

His exact motivation was not clear, but a former classmate described Loughner as a pot-smoking loner who had rambling beliefs about the world.

Had to throw the pot-smoking in there, sure that's going to take a beating in the media too.

So basically pot smoking and guns are going to be attacked for the next few months.

[Avatard]

Pretty much.

[askmrjesus]

Back to what we were discussing. I was asking if you saw the difference between this guy thinking the government was brainwashing people and controlling their minds and what you posted, discussion of potential ramifications of a bill that never made it out of committee.

I see it.

But then, I'm not (that) crazy.

It all boils down to tone and inflection. I saw nothing in the bill that amounted to what I would consider active mind control. If, however, you are pre-disposed to being the poster boy for the "Homicidal White Loner Asshole Society", the shineola Beck's spitting out, could easily be construed as an affirmation of your paranoid delusions.

Beck is a fear monger. "The country is being destroyed, everyone is a Socialist, the Illuminati are coming, and we're all going to hell. Here, buy some Gold."

The man is a televised catalyst of evil.

JC

[Trip]

The more I hear about this, the more I see this spawning another patriot act. I hope we don't lose more freedoms cause of this dumbass.

[Avatard]

Of course we will. Shit like this causes fear. Fear is used as a tool by those who wish to control us, and they won't miss the opportunity to parlay this into some fucked up new legislation that makes us somehow less free.

This is pretty much a given, I'm afraid...

[quackPOT]

For the people foaming at the mouth over Palin's use of targets, please make sure you give equal foamage towards the Dems too... The Democratic Leadership Council did the same shit back in 2004.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171

http://www.dlc.org/upload_graphics/BP_0405_heartland1.gif

The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee has done it too, over a year ago...

http://www.verumserum.com/media/2010/03/DCCC-target-map.jpg

"Targeted Republicans"

http://www.verumserum.com/media/2010/03/DCCC-targeted-republican.jpg

It's funny and pathetic how many people are laying so much blame on both groups and individuals because of a SINGLE NUTJOB. This isn't about left or right, guns, or Sarah Palin, it's about some fucktard who went off the deep end. Get a grip people.

[Avatard]

Target =/= Gunsight.

You throw darts at a bulls-eye.

A scope is found on a gun.

[Trip]

Target =/= Gunsight.

You throw darts at a bulls-eye.

A scope is found on a gun.

They do make the same theme of using combative/war like language. I mean "Behind Enemy Lines." They were clearly making it seem like they were trying to get the exact same point across.

I have shot bullets and arrows at a bullseye. I have never thrown "darts." The bullseye looks nothing like a true dartboard. You are really reaching to try to pawn this one off instead of just admitting the obvious. Palin is not guilty of forcing anyone sane to pursue this method.

[Trip]

http://nancysneedlecrafts.com/sports_files/0512%20Dart%20Board.jpg

=/=

http://yesyesss.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/dartboard.gif

[Trip]

http://fototime.com/ECECC40B722C67B/standard.jpg

[Avatard]

Yep, you're right; the Democratic one looks like an archery target.

Palin's is unmistakably a gun scope.

I imagine that if the Democrats used inflammatory language also (like "RELOAD!"), they might have incited someone to nefarious "archery".

Or not.

[Trip]

Yep, you're right; the Democratic one looks like an archery target.

Palin's is unmistakably a gun scope.

The first one looks a lot like this too.

I have shot numerous times at a similar target at my local gun range with similar colors.

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/72655/72655,1231297063,2/stock-photo-shot-up-target-with-bulls-eye-22884709.jpg

[Avatard]

Are you familiar with the term disambiguation?

Palin's targets are not in any way ambiguous. The others are, you proved it here.

Just saying.

[Trip]

Are you familiar with the term disambiguation?

Palin's targets are not in any way ambiguous. The others are, you proved it here.

Just saying.

Just saying you are trying in every way possible to deflect any criticism of democrats. Why? You are supposedly Libertarian. Why do you try everything you can to make things acceptable for them and not for republicans? Sorry when I see a bullseye and see the word target, I take it as that's something you are going to aim to destroy, that same as I would a gun sight target.

If you are for neither party, just say, yep they pulled the same shit and move on with your day. Why is it so important to defend them?

I see no issue with either party using it, BTW. Just like Kellen Winslow saying he was a "fuckin soldier" after getting beat by UT in a football game. Did he mean he was a fuckin soldier killing enemy soldiers? fuck no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I82BPA5QAaQ

[tallywacker]

I think palin is a complete moron, but I also to think you're a moron if you think palin influenced this in anyway.

This guy was just insane.

[Avatard]

Freakshow was a leftist:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40980334/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

See bottom of article.

I think palin is a complete moron, but I also to think you're a moron if you think palin influenced this in anyway.

This guy was just insane.

Wasn't drawing conclusions, just stating facts. I'm reading this shit as it comes in, same as all of you.

[Trip]

Freakshow was a leftist:

Wasn't drawing conclusions, just stating facts. I'm reading this shit as it comes in, same as all of you.

So basically all of this thread is moot now. I wonder how the major networks are going to respond to this now that they know this had nothing to do with Palin's stupid map.

Shit happens, that's why I don't care about either party's target maps. They can't be held responsible for insane individuals. A sane person knows those maps don't actually mean target to kill.

[tallywacker]

Freakshow was a leftist:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40980334/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/


I posted this on page four of this thread.


I haven't seen him since '07. Then, he was left wing.

As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy.

he was a pot head & into rock like Hendrix,The Doors, Anti-Flag.

[Avatard]

Just saying you are trying in every way possible to deflect any criticism of democrats. Why? You are supposedly Libertarian. Why do you try everything you can to make things acceptable for them and not for republicans? Sorry when I see a bullseye and see the word target, I take it as that's something you are going to aim to destroy, that same as I would a gun sight target.

Mostly because Dems are usually anti-gun.

They might use words and phrases that stem from war and firearms, but probably don't do it while visualizing exactly that. Palin used to use the term "reload" and other suggestive wording in a context that often suggested taking up arms, as did Sharon Angle, and Jesse Kelly.


If you are for neither party, just say, yep they pulled the same shit and move on with your day. Why is it so important to defend them?

Because I haven't yet seen a Democratic politician so gleefully brandish firearms in the media, in such a political context as has Palin, and a few other right-leaning extremists.

Looks to me like this guy was in fact just nuts.

:shrug:

I'm genuinely surprised he's leftist in his beliefs, but crazy isn't blue or red.

[Avatard]

I posted this on page four of this thread.

Must have read too fast, and missed that part.

:shrug:

Although, he might have changed since '07 (I mean, changed affiliation, but remained crazy). Who knows...he ain't talking.

[Dave]

Yep, you're right; the Democratic one looks like an archery target.

Palin's is unmistakably a gun scope.

I imagine that if the Democrats used inflammatory language also (like "RELOAD!"), they might have incited someone to nefarious "archery".

Or not.

*cough*alan grayson*cough*

[Dave]

So basically all of this thread is moot now. I wonder how the major networks are going to respond to this now that they know this had nothing to do with Palin's stupid map.

Shit happens, that's why I don't care about either party's target maps. They can't be held responsible for insane individuals. A sane person knows those maps don't actually mean target to kill.

probably dump it in a week should it prove true :lol

im surprised he skipped catcher in the rye

[Homeslice]

Funny thing about all the Obama-haters is..............He's actually turned out to be less liberal than either Clinton or Carter.

The only reason people are crying "socialist" is because he came after such a right-wing adminstration.

Oh, and because he's "different" in other ways too.......:rolleyes:

Also........What does pot have to do with being liberal or conservative? Are you guys saying liberals do pot, while conservatives do......what exactly? Meth?

[goof2]

Funny thing about all the Obama-haters is..............He's actually turned out to be less liberal than either Clinton or Carter.

The only reason people are crying "socialist" is because he came after such a right-wing adminstration.

Oh, and because he's "different" in other ways too.......:rolleyes:

Also........What does pot have to do with being liberal or conservative? Are you guys saying liberals do pot, while conservatives do......what exactly? Meth?

By what measure do you say he is less liberal than Clinton?

[smileyman]

This just in, seems the congresswoman and bystanders were killed and wounded by 'natural causes', very similar to those that killed 100,000 birds in Arkansas and more than 2 million fish back East. Oh well no more conspiracy theory or political contraversy...

[Trip]

Funny thing about all the Obama-haters is..............He's actually turned out to be less liberal than either Clinton or Carter.

The only reason people are crying "socialist" is because he came after such a right-wing adminstration.

Oh, and because he's "different" in other ways too.......:rolleyes:

Also........What does pot have to do with being liberal or conservative? Are you guys saying liberals do pot, while conservatives do......what exactly? Meth?

The socialist stuff also really picked up steam with the Healthcare reform.

Most people associate pot smokers with hippies and such. It's got a very liberal view of the activity. It's stereotypical left. Conservatives do the more hypocritical I don't do drugs, but I actually do use drugs view.

[tallywacker]

Journalists urged caution after Ft. Hood, now race to blame Palin after Arizona shootings

On November 5, 2009, Maj. Nidal Hasan opened fire at a troop readiness center in Ft. Hood, Texas, killing 13 people. Within hours of the killings, the world knew that Hasan reportedly shouted "Allahu Akbar!" before he began shooting, visited websites associated with Islamist violence, wrote Internet postings justifying Muslim suicide bombings, considered U.S. forces his enemy, opposed American involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan as wars on Islam, and told a neighbor shortly before the shootings that he was going "to do good work for God." There was ample evidence, in other words, that the Ft. Hood attack was an act of Islamist violence.

Nevertheless, public officials, journalists, and commentators were quick to caution that the public should not "jump to conclusions" about Hasan's motive. CNN, in particular, became a forum for repeated warnings that the subject should be discussed with particular care.

"The important thing is for everyone not to jump to conclusions," said retired Gen. Wesley Clark on CNN the night of the shootings.

"We cannot jump to conclusions," said CNN's Jane Velez-Mitchell that same evening. "We have to make sure that we do not jump to any conclusions whatsoever."

"I'm on Pentagon chat room," said former CIA operative Robert Baer on CNN, also the night of the shooting. "Right now, there's messages going back and forth, saying do not jump to the conclusion this had anything to do with Islam."

The next day, President Obama underscored the rapidly-forming conventional wisdom when he told the country, "I would caution against jumping to conclusions until we have all the facts." In the days that followed, CNN jouralists and guests repeatedly echoed the president's remarks.

"We can't jump to conclusions," Army Gen. George Casey said on CNN November 8. The next day, political analyst Mark Halperin urged a "transparent" investigation into the shootings "so the American people don't jump to conclusions." And when Republican Rep. Pete Hoekstra, then the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, suggested that the Ft. Hood attack was terrorism, CNN's John Roberts was quick to intervene. "Now, President Obama has asked people to be very cautious here and to not jump to conclusions," Roberts said to Hoekstra. "By saying that you believe this is an act of terror, are you jumping to a conclusion?"

Fast forward a little more than a year, to January 8, 2011. In Tucson, Arizona, a 22 year-old man named Jared Lee Loughner opened fire at a political event, gravely wounding Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, killing a federal judge and five others, and wounding 18. In the hours after the attack, little was known about Loughner beyond some bizarre and largely incomprehensible YouTube postings that, if anything, suggested he was mentally ill. Yet the network that had shown such caution in discussing the Ft. Hood shootings openly discussed the possibility that Loughner was inspired to violence by…Sarah Palin. Although there is no evidence that Loughner was in any way influenced by Palin, CNN was filled with speculation about the former Alaska governor.

After reporting that Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik had condemned what Dupnik called "the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government," CNN's Wolf Blitzer turned to congressional reporter Jessica Yellin for analysis. The sheriff "singled out some of the political rhetoric, as you point out, in creating the environment that allowed this kind of instance to happen," Yellin told Blitzer. "Even though, as you point out, this suspect is not cooperating with investigators, so we don't know the motive. President Obama also delivered that message, saying it's partly the political rhetoric that led to this. So that's why we want to bring up one of the themes that's burning up the social media right now. On Twitter and Facebook, there is a lot of talk, in particular, about Sarah Palin. As you might recall, back in March of last year, when the health care vote was coming to the floor of the House and this was all heating up, Palin tweeted out a message on Twitter saying 'common sense conservatives, don't retreat -- instead reload.' And she referred folks to her Facebook page. On that Facebook page was a list of Democratic members she was putting in crosshairs, and Gabrielle Giffords was one of those in the crosshairs."

Yellin noted that Palin had "posted a statement on Facebook saying that 'my sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and other victims of today's tragic shooting in Arizona. On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families and for peace and justice.'" Yellin continued: "And I should point out that Republican leaders in Washington have said that this is not a partisan issue, this is about violence, as have some tea party groups. But clearly this is a moment to talk about our political rhetoric."

"It certainly is," Blitzer agreed. "But the question is, is there any evidence that the suspected shooter in this particular case was a Sarah Palin fan, read Sarah Palin's website, was a member on Facebook, watched her tweets, or anything like that?"

"None at all," Yellin responded. "And there is no evidence that this was even inspired by rage over health care, broadly. So there is no overt connection between Sarah Palin, health care, and the [shootings]."

Indeed, there is no "overt" or any other sort of connection between Loughner and Palin. If such evidence came to light, it would certainly be news. But without that evidence, and after a brief caveat, the CNN group went back to discussing the theory that Loughner acted out of rage inspired by Palin and other Republicans. Conclusions were jumped to all around.

And it wasn't just CNN. Other media outlets were also filled with speculation about the attack and pronouncements on the state of American political rhetoric. What a markedly different situation from 15 months earlier when, in the face of actual evidence that Maj. Hasan was inspired by Islamist convictions, many media commentators sought to be voices of caution. Where was that caution after the shootings in Arizona?

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/journalists-urged-caution-after-ft-hood-now-race-blame-palin-afte?utm_source=Tweetdeck&utm_medium=twitter#ixzz1AYcJdnf2

[Dave]

Journalists urged caution after Ft. Hood, now race to blame Palin after Arizona shootings

bet what ratings they still cling to dwindle after this.

[Dave]

The only reason people are crying "socialist" is because he came after such a right-wing adminstration.


right cause all the government buyouts and installation of czars is a totally normal capitalist free market thing to do :rolleyes:

[goof2]

Journalists urged caution after Ft. Hood, now race to blame Palin after Arizona shootings

I've noticed the same thing. You can also add in when a terrorist attack is carried out by someone affiliated with certain beliefs (trying to keep it News Desk friendly), even after it is confirmed the attack was in the name of those beliefs, the media is very quick to emphasize that the attacker is an individual and shouldn't be used as an indictment of the entire group (as they should). In this case the shooter has deliberately been used to indict a political belief system generally and Palin, Angle, Beck, and the Tea Party specifically despite there being zero evidence so far that he was involved in that political belief system or paid any attention to those specifically mentioned.

I find it absolutely pathetic that some in the media (and in politics) who separate the crazed acts of an individual from the group with which they identify have immediately used this crazed individual to indict groups with which there is zero evidence the shooter identified.:td:

That isn't as clear as I would like, but I'd hate to see this thread moved to the War Room as a result of something I said.

[goof2]

right cause all the government buyouts and installation of czars is a totally normal capitalist free market thing to do :rolleyes:

I think Slice's assertion is ridiculous, but not for the reasons you list. The Bush admin started the bailout/buyout thing with TARP, though the Obama admin did expand its scope. Also, the Bush admin had czars too, just not as many as the Obama admin has had.

[Dave]

I think Slice's assertion is ridiculous, but not for the reasons you list. The Bush admin started the bailout/buyout thing with TARP, though the Obama admin did expand its scope. Also, the Bush admin had czars too, just not as many as the Obama admin has had.

hes just as guilty. i dont defend him in the least

[goof2]

hes just as guilty. i dont defend him in the least

That's fine, but nobody was accusing him of being a socialist.:idk:

[Rangerscott]

I don't want to be thought as a northerner that thinks everyone is the south walks around shooting their gun in the air, but Arizona is open carry. I know this is a tiny place on the map with a very small fraction of human population but I would have thought someone would have had a gun on them.

[Dave]

That's fine, but nobody was accusing him of being a socialist.:idk:

Beck has but I don't think anyone cared about him back then

[tallywacker]

I don't want to be thought as a northerner that thinks everyone is the south walks around shooting their gun in the air, but Arizona is open carry. I know this is a tiny place on the map with a very small fraction of human population but I would have thought someone would have had a gun on them.

PA and Virgina are Open Carry states. Maybe the didn't think it was appropriate to meet the senator or they thought they would have to pass through a security search to talk to her so they didn't bring a weapon? I know I don't carry to a place where I believe I'm going to be searched.

[Rangerscott]

They were at a grocery store. I doubt they were searching people seeing that she now has a hole in her head.

[tallywacker]

They were at a grocery store. I doubt they were searching people seeing that she now has a hole in her head.

That wasn't my point. Reread my post. I was saying most LAW ABIDING gun carriers would purposely leave their gun in the car or at home ASSUMING there are usually security checks at these sorts of events.

Also she is a democrat, so not too many of her supporters are the gun toting type.

[Rangerscott]

I wasnt speaking down on you. May what you said is true but I wouldn't disarm myself. They have the right to carry so I was just expecting someone to be locked and loaded.

[Trip]

I wasnt speaking down on you. May what you said is true but I wouldn't disarm myself. They have the right to carry so I was just expecting someone to be locked and loaded.

Most people, even well trained gun owners, don't respond well to something like this. I have seen a study about what would happen if they had well trained gun owners with their guns in a classroom environment and all of them failed to stop the attacker. Most didn't even have time to draw. It usually happens faster than your brain can respond and a lot of people resort to flight as a first instinct.

[tallywacker]

Most people, even well trained gun owners, don't respond well to something like this. I have seen a study about what would happen if they had well trained gun owners with their guns in a classroom environment and all of them failed to stop the attacker. Most didn't even have time to draw. It usually happens faster than your brain can respond and a lot of people resort to flight as a first instinct.

Truth

[Particle Man]

Just saw that those WBC fucks are going to be picketing the funerals of the ones that died...

[tallywacker]

Just saw that those WBC fucks are going to be picketing the funerals of the ones that died...

People that actually deserve to be shot never do.

[Dave]

Just saw that those WBC fucks are going to be picketing the funerals of the ones that died...

naturally

[goof2]

Beck has but I don't think anyone cared about him back then

Beck seems to think anyone to the left of Joe McCarthy is a socialist.

[Particle Man]

People that actually deserve to be shot never do.

True

[Avatard]

Just saw that those WBC fucks are going to be picketing the funerals of the ones that died...

Motherfucker.

[Trip]

why can't a nutbag go nutz on them....

[Rangerscott]

Most people, even well trained gun owners, don't respond well to something like this. I have seen a study about what would happen if they had well trained gun owners with their guns in a classroom environment and all of them failed to stop the attacker. Most didn't even have time to draw. It usually happens faster than your brain can respond and a lot of people resort to flight as a first instinct.

Im talking about after the guy started shooting.

[goof2]

Im talking about after the guy started shooting.

I don't carry so I'm just giving my personal impressions. It seems to me most of those who do carry aren't going to be going to an open house for a Democratic candidate, even though Giffords was not the typical anti-gun Democrat. Those who do and were going would probably leave their weapon at home when going to talk to a politician. Those who are in the "I carry all the time, no matter what" crowd would probably avoid events where they might get hassled for carrying. All that said, that is why I suspect there probably weren't people carrying in attendance.

On the "after the guy started shooting" thing, even if he made it all the way through his first magazine (I've heard 30 rounds) the shooting may have been over seconds after it started. If the actual shooting lasted longer than 5-10 seconds I'd be surprised.

[Rangerscott]

Yall arent getting it. The guy didnt magically dissappear after shooting. He had to be taking up space in the universe. He had to get away. My poimt is im just surprised with a state with citizens fighting to have open carry and there was no one arm. Thats all.

[goof2]

Yall arent getting it. The guy didnt magically dissappear after shooting. He had to be taking up space in the universe. He had to get away. My poimt is im just surprised with a state with citizens fighting to have open carry and there was no one arm. Thats all.

What percentage of the population of Arizona do you think is carrying at any given time? Do you think that percentage drops at a Democratic political event?

[Trip]

Im talking about after the guy started shooting.

Yall arent getting it. The guy didnt magically dissappear after shooting. He had to be taking up space in the universe. He had to get away. My poimt is im just surprised with a state with citizens fighting to have open carry and there was no one arm. Thats all.

I was as well.

People don't react like they are badass internet warriors. They flee from the scene. Everyone talks a big game about being able to draw and kill someone, but that's not reality. The average gun owner will not draw and kill when something this happens, they duck and cover.

He didn't disappear, an unarmed citizen tackled his ass when he went to reload. As I clearly stated before, gun owners have been shown to not have the killer instinct. The choose flight over fight. Most of the time it takes someone trained to choose fight and draw to kill. Like an off duty or someone military trained. The average john smith with his carry license doesn't react well to pressure that a shooting brings on.

[Avatard]

The woman that tackled him was already wounded.

She's quite the fucking hero, actually.

[Particle Man]

why can't a nutbag go nutz on them....

Because that would make too much freaking sense.

[Homeslice]

Here's a more detailed analysis of his beliefs. For those who are attempting to portray him as liberal, that's pretty doubtful. A lot of what's described below seems pretty teabaggish, especially the NWO conspiracy thing. :idk:


Shooting suspect's nihilism rose with isolation
By JUSTIN PRITCHARD, Associated Press Justin Pritchard, Associated Press Sun Jan 9, 7:09 pm ET
TUCSON, Ariz. – At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"

Loughner was angry about her response — she read the question and had nothing to say.

"He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy," one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday.

Both friends spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they wanted to avoid the publicity surrounding the case. To them, the question was classic Jared: confrontational, nonlinear and obsessed with how words create reality.

The friends' comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner's own Internet postings: That of a social outcast with nihilistic, almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.

"If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem," the 22-year-old wrote Dec. 15, part of a wide-ranging screed that was posted in video form and ended with this: "What's government if words don't have meaning?"

On Sunday, Loughner was charged with the shootings a day earlier at a political event outside a Tucson supermarket. Aside from the six killed, 14 people were wounded. Doctors were optimistic about Giffords' chances for survival.

Loughner had at least one other contact with Giffords. Investigators said they carried out a search warrant at Loughner's home and seized a letter addressed to him from Giffords' congressional stationery in which she thanked him for attending a "Congress on your Corner" event at a mall in Tucson in 2007 — the same kind of event where officials say Loughner opened fire Saturday.

Other evidence seized from his home included an envelope from a safe with messages such as "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and the name "Giffords" next to what appears to be Loughner's signature.

His high school friends said they fell out of touch with Loughner and last spoke to him around March, when one of them was going to set up some bottles in the desert for target practice and Loughner suggested he might come along. It was unusual — Loughner hadn't expressed an interest in guns before — and his increasingly confrontational behavior was pushing them apart. He would send nonsensical text messages, but also break off contact for weeks on end.

"We just started getting sketched out about him," the friend said. It was the first time he'd felt that way.

Around the same time, Loughner's behavior also began to worry officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner began attending classes in 2005, the school said in a release.

Between February and September, Loughner "had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions," the statement said. He was suspended in September 2010 after college police discovered a YouTube video in which Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution. He withdrew voluntarily the following month, and was told he could return only if he met certain conditions, including getting a mental health professional to agree that his presence on campus did not present a danger, the school said.

To his friends, it had been a gradual alienation.

The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around. The crew smoked marijuana everyday, and when they weren't going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.

Mistrust of government was his defining conviction, the friends said. He believed the government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.

On his YouTube page, he listed among his favorite books "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World" — two novels about how authorities control the masses. Other books he listed in the wide-ranging list included "Mein Kampf," "The Communist Manifesto," "Peter Pan" and Aesop's Fables.

Over time, Loughner became increasingly engrossed in his own thoughts — what one of the friends described as a "nihilistic rut."

Loughner, an ardent atheist, began to characterize people as sheep whose free will was being sapped by the monotony of modern life.

"He didn't want people to wake up and do the same thing every day. He wanted more chaos, he wanted less regularity," one friend said.

The friend added that Loughner believed government was trying to get people to accept their meaningless lives so that they would stop dreaming — literally.

He told anyone who would listen that the world we see does not exist, that words have no meaning — and that the only way to derive meaning was during sleep.

Loughner began obsessing about a practice called lucid dreaming, in which people try to actively control their dreams. He kept a detailed journal about what he saw while asleep, and tried to get the friends involved.

Several people who knew Loughner at community college said he did not seem especially political, but was socially awkward. He laughed at the wrong things, made inappropriate comments. Most students sat away from him in class.

"He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class," said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring. Though he struck up a superficial friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.

Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a "kind of a bland" poem about going to the gym in wild "poetry slam" style — "grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room."

When other students read their poems, meanwhile, Coorough said Loughner "would laugh at things that you wouldn't laugh at." After one woman read a poem about abortion, "he was turning all shades of red and laughing," and said, "Wow, she's just like a terrorist, she killed a baby," Coorough said.

"He appeared to be to me an emotional cripple or an emotional child," Coorough said. "He lacked compassion, he lacked understanding and he lacked an ability to connect."

Cates said Loughner "didn't have the social intelligence, but he definitely had the academic intelligence."

"He was very into the knowledge aspect of school. He was really into his philosophy classes and he was really into logic and English. And he would get frustrated by the dumbed-down words people used in class," Cates said.

Loughner expressed his interest in grammar and logic on the Internet as he made bizarre claims — such as that the Mars rover and the space shuttle missions were faked.

He frequently used "if-then" constructions in making nonsensical arguments. For instance: "If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F."

Loughner also said in one video that government is "implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar." He said described America's laws as "treasonous," said the "every human who's mentally capable is always able to be treasurer of their new currency," and that "if the property owners and government officials are no longer in ownership of their land and laws from a revolution then the revolutionary's from the revolution are in control of the land and laws."

Loughner described himself as a U.S. military recruit in the video, but the Army released a statement indicating Loughner was not accepted.

"He attempted to enlist in the Army but was rejected for service. In accordance with the Privacy Act, we will not discuss why he was rejected," it said.

Loughner tried to enlist because it was one way of getting out of the "T-Loc" life — kicking around as a Tucson local — one of the friends said.

In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.

A year later he was charged with an unknown "local charge" in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Daily Star reported.

"He has kind of a troubled past, I can tell you that," Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.

[Dave]

Here's a more detailed analysis of his beliefs. For those who are attempting to portray him as liberal, that's pretty doubtful. A lot of what's described below seems pretty teabaggish, especially the NWO conspiracy thing. :idk:


Shooting suspect's nihilism rose with isolation
By JUSTIN PRITCHARD, Associated Press Justin Pritchard, Associated Press Sun Jan 9, 7:09 pm ET
TUCSON, Ariz. – At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people. According to two of his high school friends the question was essentially this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"

Loughner was angry about her response — she read the question and had nothing to say.

"He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy," one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday.

Both friends spoke on condition of anonymity, saying they wanted to avoid the publicity surrounding the case. To them, the question was classic Jared: confrontational, nonlinear and obsessed with how words create reality.

The friends' comments paint a picture bolstered by other former classmates and Loughner's own Internet postings: That of a social outcast with nihilistic, almost indecipherable beliefs steeped in mistrust and paranoia.

"If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem," the 22-year-old wrote Dec. 15, part of a wide-ranging screed that was posted in video form and ended with this: "What's government if words don't have meaning?"

On Sunday, Loughner was charged with the shootings a day earlier at a political event outside a Tucson supermarket. Aside from the six killed, 14 people were wounded. Doctors were optimistic about Giffords' chances for survival.

Loughner had at least one other contact with Giffords. Investigators said they carried out a search warrant at Loughner's home and seized a letter addressed to him from Giffords' congressional stationery in which she thanked him for attending a "Congress on your Corner" event at a mall in Tucson in 2007 — the same kind of event where officials say Loughner opened fire Saturday.

Other evidence seized from his home included an envelope from a safe with messages such as "I planned ahead," "My assassination" and the name "Giffords" next to what appears to be Loughner's signature.

His high school friends said they fell out of touch with Loughner and last spoke to him around March, when one of them was going to set up some bottles in the desert for target practice and Loughner suggested he might come along. It was unusual — Loughner hadn't expressed an interest in guns before — and his increasingly confrontational behavior was pushing them apart. He would send nonsensical text messages, but also break off contact for weeks on end.

"We just started getting sketched out about him," the friend said. It was the first time he'd felt that way.

Around the same time, Loughner's behavior also began to worry officials at Pima Community College, where Loughner began attending classes in 2005, the school said in a release.

Between February and September, Loughner "had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions," the statement said. He was suspended in September 2010 after college police discovered a YouTube video in which Loughner claimed the college was illegal according to the U.S. Constitution. He withdrew voluntarily the following month, and was told he could return only if he met certain conditions, including getting a mental health professional to agree that his presence on campus did not present a danger, the school said.

To his friends, it had been a gradual alienation.

The Loughner they met when he was a freshman at Mountain View High School may have been socially awkward, but he was generally happy and fun to be around. The crew smoked marijuana everyday, and when they weren't going to concerts or watching movies they talked about the meaning of life and dabbled in conspiracy theories.

Mistrust of government was his defining conviction, the friends said. He believed the government was behind 9/11, and worried that governments were maneuvering to create a unified monetary system ("a New World Order currency" one friend said) so that social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.

On his YouTube page, he listed among his favorite books "Animal Farm" and "Brave New World" — two novels about how authorities control the masses. Other books he listed in the wide-ranging list included "Mein Kampf," "The Communist Manifesto," "Peter Pan" and Aesop's Fables.

Over time, Loughner became increasingly engrossed in his own thoughts — what one of the friends described as a "nihilistic rut."

Loughner, an ardent atheist, began to characterize people as sheep whose free will was being sapped by the monotony of modern life.

"He didn't want people to wake up and do the same thing every day. He wanted more chaos, he wanted less regularity," one friend said.

The friend added that Loughner believed government was trying to get people to accept their meaningless lives so that they would stop dreaming — literally.

He told anyone who would listen that the world we see does not exist, that words have no meaning — and that the only way to derive meaning was during sleep.

Loughner began obsessing about a practice called lucid dreaming, in which people try to actively control their dreams. He kept a detailed journal about what he saw while asleep, and tried to get the friends involved.

Several people who knew Loughner at community college said he did not seem especially political, but was socially awkward. He laughed at the wrong things, made inappropriate comments. Most students sat away from him in class.

"He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class," said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring. Though he struck up a superficial friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.

Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a "kind of a bland" poem about going to the gym in wild "poetry slam" style — "grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room."

When other students read their poems, meanwhile, Coorough said Loughner "would laugh at things that you wouldn't laugh at." After one woman read a poem about abortion, "he was turning all shades of red and laughing," and said, "Wow, she's just like a terrorist, she killed a baby," Coorough said.

"He appeared to be to me an emotional cripple or an emotional child," Coorough said. "He lacked compassion, he lacked understanding and he lacked an ability to connect."

Cates said Loughner "didn't have the social intelligence, but he definitely had the academic intelligence."

"He was very into the knowledge aspect of school. He was really into his philosophy classes and he was really into logic and English. And he would get frustrated by the dumbed-down words people used in class," Cates said.

Loughner expressed his interest in grammar and logic on the Internet as he made bizarre claims — such as that the Mars rover and the space shuttle missions were faked.

He frequently used "if-then" constructions in making nonsensical arguments. For instance: "If the living space is able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F then the human body is alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. The human body isn't alive in the NASA Space Shuttle. Thus, the living space isn't able to maintain the crews life at a temperature of -454F."

Loughner also said in one video that government is "implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar." He said described America's laws as "treasonous," said the "every human who's mentally capable is always able to be treasurer of their new currency," and that "if the property owners and government officials are no longer in ownership of their land and laws from a revolution then the revolutionary's from the revolution are in control of the land and laws."

Loughner described himself as a U.S. military recruit in the video, but the Army released a statement indicating Loughner was not accepted.

"He attempted to enlist in the Army but was rejected for service. In accordance with the Privacy Act, we will not discuss why he was rejected," it said.

Loughner tried to enlist because it was one way of getting out of the "T-Loc" life — kicking around as a Tucson local — one of the friends said.

In October 2007, Loughner was cited in Pima County for possession of drug paraphernalia, which was dismissed after he completed a diversion program, according to online records.

A year later he was charged with an unknown "local charge" in Marana near Tucson. That charge was also dismissed following the completion of a diversion program in March 2009, the Daily Star reported.

"He has kind of a troubled past, I can tell you that," Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said.

Mmm communist manifesto, mein kampf, 9-11 was an inside job, and faked space missions? What were you saying about tea parties again? :lmao:

[Trip]

The woman that tackled him was already wounded.

She's quite the fucking hero, actually.

From what I have heard and read, a woman didn't tackle him. Two dudes tackled him. A old woman grabbed the magazine from him after two dudes tackled him. She wasn't shot, but she prevented him from reloading while struggling with the two guys.

Maisch was waiting in line with her husband to get a photo with Giffords at the meet-and-greet on Saturday morning.

Two men tackled the suspect — they were identified as Roger Sulzgeber, who was also in line, and Joseph Zimudie, who was at a nearby Walgreens and heard the shooting. The shooter reached for a magazine as he struggled with the men, Maisch said.

"Somebody said 'Get the magazine!' so I got the magazine, and I was able to secure that," Maisch said. "That's what needed to be done."

[101lifts2]

Funny thing about all the Obama-haters is..............He's actually turned out to be less liberal than either Clinton or Carter....

You tend to do that when ur a puppet of the ruling elite. He isn't running anything...

[Papa_Complex]

You tend to do that when ur a puppet of the ruling elite. He isn't running anything...

So politicians who lean to the right are all tools of the ruling elite?

[Dave]

So politicians who lean to the right are all tools of the ruling elite?

Perhaps, certaintly if they had the same gold spoon up your ass upbringing with similar mentors

[Homeslice]

Mmm communist manifesto, mein kampf, 9-11 was an inside job, and faked space missions? What were you saying about tea parties again? :lmao:

So because someone read the manifesto and mein kampf says whether they are left or right? Tons of people read things like that because they want to see how fucked up the opposing side is.

OK 9/11 maybe, but how is believing the moon landing was fake liberal or conservative?

[Dave]

So because someone read the manifesto and mein kampf says whether they are left or right? Tons of people read things like that because they want to see how fucked up the opposing side is.

OK 9/11 maybe, but how is believing the moon landing was fake liberal or conservative?

Read sure. Listed as favorite book? That's a bit different.

[Papa_Complex]

So because someone read the manifesto and mein kampf says whether they are left or right? Tons of people read things like that because they want to see how fucked up the opposing side is.

OK 9/11 maybe, but how is believing the moon landing was fake liberal or conservative?

"Mein Kampf" and "The Communist Manifesto" aren't exactly what I would call congruent works. In many ways they're diametrically opposed.

If you go by what's in people's libraries then I'm an Islamic (Koran) Christian Fundamentalist (New Plain English Bible) Witch (various books on Celtic and old English mythology) Serial Killer (Catcher in the Rye). That's leaving out my books on various Asian cultures, several other religious texts, a rather extensive SF and Fantasy novel collection, the collected works of William Shakespeare....

[goof2]

Here's a more detailed analysis of his beliefs. For those who are attempting to portray him as liberal, that's pretty doubtful. A lot of what's described below seems pretty teabaggish, especially the NWO conspiracy thing. :idk:

I haven't seen anyone really push him being a real lefty (I may have missed it though). If anything most of the political talk has been refuting the initial assumption, with absolutely nothing to back it up, that he is a hardcore Tea Partier who did this because Sharon Angle, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh told him to. Whatever political party it ends up he supports, if he even supports one, I haven't seen anything that indicates political affiliation had anything to do with why he did this.

I haven't seen too many on the right saying he did this because of people on the left, but I have seen the regular cast of characters on the left saying he did this because of people on the right. Either way I think both groups are wrong. Everything I'm seeing indicates he did this because he was mentally unstable. That may change as the investigation continues, but even the County Sheriff who got so much play initially for blaming the fired up political rhetoric has admitted they haven't seen anything so far that backs that assertion up.

[Papa_Complex]

I haven't seen anyone really push him being a real lefty (I may have missed it though). If anything most of the political talk has been refuting the initial assumption, with absolutely nothing to back it up, that he is a hardcore Tea Partier who did this because Sharon Angle, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh told him to. Whatever political party it ends up he supports, if he even supports one, I haven't seen anything that indicates political affiliation had anything to do with why he did this.

I haven't seen too many on the right saying he did this because of people on the left, but I have seen the regular cast of characters on the left saying he did this because of people on the right. Either way I think both groups are wrong. Everything I'm seeing indicates he did this because he was mentally unstable. That may change as the investigation continues, but even the County Sheriff who got so much play initially for blaming the fired up political rhetoric has admitted they haven't seen anything so far that backs that assertion up.

Rational political groups don't own the acts of irrational people so, whether he 'belongs' to either Dems or Reps, his evil is his own.

As to how people are reacting to this, read the comments that are attached to this Youtube vid. I'm thinking that the gene pool could use a hefty dose of bleach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_wmsaXJKp0

[Homeslice]

Anyone who doesn't have a regular social circle is more inclined to do something like this. That and the fact that if you aren't actively involved in your community, you tend to see government as some kind of manipulative system rather than a group of human beings.

[goof2]

Rational political groups don't own the acts of irrational people so, whether he 'belongs' to either Dems or Reps, his evil is his own.

You and I agree on this but it sure seems most of the media does not. There is zero evidence so far that he was in any way motivated by the right and similar rhetoric has come from the left. The majority of the media has decided, despite the above, that it is "fair" to discuss what hypothetical responsibility the political right should bear. It appears to me they have decided to play lip service to the facts as we currently know them while doing what they can to blame the right.

Maybe it is happening and I haven't come across it, but the political side of this discussion hasn't suggested that this guy did this because he is a lefty and was motivated by the left. What I have seen is "one side" saying he was a righty motivated by the right while the "other side" says he wasn't a righty, he may even have been a lefty (without saying that motivated him to do this), but his politics had nothing to do with this. I see that as a large distinction between the two sides of the discussion.

As to how people are reacting to this, read the comments that are attached to this Youtube vid. I'm thinking that the gene pool could use a hefty dose of bleach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_wmsaXJKp0

Are you telling me people post moronic things on the internet? My worldview has been shattered.

[Papa_Complex]

You and I agree on this but it sure seems most of the media does not. There is zero evidence so far that he was in any way motivated by the right and similar rhetoric has come from the left. The majority of the media has decided, despite the above, that it is "fair" to discuss what hypothetical responsibility the political right should bear. It appears to me they have decided to play lip service to the facts as we currently know them while doing what they can to blame the right.

Maybe it is happening and I haven't come across it, but the political side of this discussion hasn't suggested that this guy did this because he is a lefty and was motivated by the left. What I have seen is "one side" saying he was a righty motivated by the right while the "other side" says he wasn't a righty, he may even have been a lefty (without saying that motivated him to do this), but his politics had nothing to do with this. I see that as a large distinction between the two sides of the discussion.

The current political climate tends to fuel this, or be fuelled by it (chicken and the egg scenario). The guy attacked a Democrat, so the backlash is toward Republicans. The way that I see it, it's similar to people who blame religion for people who shoot abortion doctors, or blow up troops with IEDs. A marginal personality is a marginal personality. If politics didn't 'make' him kill someone then it would have been demonic rock music, TV, or violent video games.

Quite simply put, someone with his head screwed on straight doesn't do shit like that.

Are you telling me people post moronic things on the internet? My worldview has been shattered.

Pretty much :lol:

The thing is that sort of comment doesn't exactly douse the political fires, now does it? Making that sort of comment, even 'just' on the internet, isn't only stupid, it's FUCKING stupid.

[goof2]

The current political climate tends to fuel this, or be fuelled by it (chicken and the egg scenario). The guy attacked a Democrat, so the backlash is toward Republicans. The way that I see it, it's similar to people who blame religion for people who shoot abortion doctors, or blow up troops with IEDs. A marginal personality is a marginal personality. If politics didn't 'make' him kill someone then it would have been demonic rock music, TV, or violent video games.

Quite simply put, someone with his head screwed on straight doesn't do shit like that.

I'd like to think that you are right but I just don't. Most of the media seems to do an OK job when reporting facts, but with this story there really aren't many facts to report. The story is too big for the media to deal with other stories until more facts come in though. Since they still have to fill airtime/pages but they have no "news" to fill it with they resort to editorializing which is where they really fall down.

This is nothing but pure speculation on my part, but if this had been a Republican I believe the backlash would still be against Republicans. My theory is we would be hearing about how nobody deserves this and it isn't an excuse, but violence begets violence and the violent imagery from the right created an atmosphere where this kind of attack could happen. It would be nice if my theory was way off base and reporters avoided trying to place blame with absolutely nothing to back it up, but I really don't think that would happen and it certainly hasn't happened in this case.

Pretty much :lol:

The thing is that sort of comment doesn't exactly douse the political fires, now does it? Making that sort of comment, even 'just' on the internet, isn't only stupid, it's FUCKING stupid.

I don't think those comments really inflame the political fires either though. To paraphrase what you said above, someone with their head screwed on straight isn't going to be affected by that kind of garbage to begin with. People with any sense recognize that kind of crap as exactly that, crap.

[shmike]

As to how people are reacting to this, read the comments that are attached to this Youtube vid. I'm thinking that the gene pool could use a hefty dose of bleach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_wmsaXJKp0

Paraphrase a few of the comments you recall.

The comment section has been disabled for the video.

[goof2]

Paraphrase a few of the comments you recall.

The comment section has been disabled for the video.

"The Joos are the devil!"

[Papa_Complex]

"The Joos are the devil!"

That's definitely one of the themes; assholes saying that she's a Jew and deserves to die. Then there were the comments about how some hoped that the "socialist bitch would just die." After reading them, I was rather sick. When I said "chlorine for the gene pool", I really meant hydrochloric acid.

If it was just one comment, then I would just shrug it off. It was dozens, most by different user accounts (some repeats).

[Archren]

Several people who knew Loughner at community college said he did not seem especially political, but was socially awkward. He laughed at the wrong things, made inappropriate comments. Most students sat away from him in class.

"He made a lot of the people really uncomfortable, especially the girls in the class," said Steven Cates, who attended an advanced poetry writing class with Loughner at Pima Community College last spring. Though he struck up a superficial friendship with Loughner, he said a group of other students went to the teacher to complain about Loughner at one point.

Another poetry student, Don Coorough, said Loughner read a "kind of a bland" poem about going to the gym in wild "poetry slam" style — "grabbing his crotch and jumping around the room."

When other students read their poems, meanwhile, Coorough said Loughner "would laugh at things that you wouldn't laugh at." After one woman read a poem about abortion, "he was turning all shades of red and laughing," and said, "Wow, she's just like a terrorist, she killed a baby," Coorough said.

"He appeared to be to me an emotional cripple or an emotional child," Coorough said. "He lacked compassion, he lacked understanding and he lacked an ability to connect."

Cates said Loughner "didn't have the social intelligence, but he definitely had the academic intelligence."

"He was very into the knowledge aspect of school. He was really into his philosophy classes and he was really into logic and English. And he would get frustrated by the dumbed-down words people used in class," Cates said.

Am I the only one who thinks this kid might be autistic/aspergers at least a little bit?

[CasterTroy]

Am I the only one who thinks this kid might be autistic/aspergers at least a little bit?

Assburger w/cheese! fo sho!

VERY sad!:td:

[Avatard]

Am I the only one who thinks this kid might be autistic/aspergers at least a little bit?

No, I agree.

[udman]

He looks just like Avatards avatar.

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_loughner_mug_110110_main.jpg

[Avatard]

No he doesn't. He has a neck...lol

[derf]

The pot made him do it!

http://www.frumforum.com/did-pot-trigger-giffords-shooting



After horrific shootings, we hear calls for stricter regulation of guns. The Tucson shooting should remind us why we regulate marijuana.

Jared Lee Loughner, the man held as the Tucson shooter, has been described by those who know as a “pot smoking loner.”

He had two encounters with the law, one for possession of drug paraphanalia.

We are also learning that Loughner exhibited signs of severe mental illness, very likely schizophrenia.

The connection between marijuana and schizophrenia is both controversial and complicated. The raw association is strong:

Schizophrenics are twice as likely to smoke marijuana as non-schizophrenics.
People who smoke marijuana are twice as likely to develop schizophrenia as those who do not smoke.
But is correlation causation?

Increasingly experts seem to be saying: “Yes.”

Time had a good summary of the expert view in an article published in July 2010.

Marie-Odile Krebs, professor of psychiatry at the National Institute of Health and Medical Research (INSERM) laboratory in France, and her colleagues published a study in June that identified two broad groups of people with schizophrenia who used cannabis: those whose disease was profoundly affected by their drug use and those who were not.

Within Krebs’s study population of 190 patients (121 of whom had used cannabis), researchers found a subgroup of 44 whose disease was powerfully affected by the drug. These patients either developed schizophrenia within a month of beginning to smoke pot or saw their existing psychosis severely exacerbated with each successive exposure to the drug. Schizophrenia appeared in these patients nearly three years earlier than in other marijuana-users with the disease.

After the Tucson shooting, there may be renewed pressure to control the weapons that committed the crime. But what about the drugs that may have aggravated the killer’s mental disease? The trend these days seems toward a more casual attitude and easier access to those drugs. Among the things we should be discussing in the aftermath of this horror is the accumulating evidence of those drugs’ potential contribution to making some dangerous people even more dangerous than they might otherwise have been.

[Kaneman]

I think I called something like this happening (in relation to Cannabis) not too long ago on this board...

[Papa_Complex]

I think I called something like this happening (in relation to Cannabis) not too long ago on this board...

There are people up here, who are using it to push an anti-firearm agenda. Compared to Arizona, we practically don't have guns to start with. We're not even int he same country.

Opportunists will use any situation, in order to push their personal agenda.

[Avatard]

There's a link between pot and schizophrenia, but it's unclear.

Regardless, the data DOES NOT support the assumption that schizophrenia is CAUSED by cannabis (as much as some would love to ascribe it to that).

The proof is in the data:

"...here's the conundrum: while marijuana went from being a secret shared by a small community of hepcats and beatniks in the 1940s and '50s to a rite of passage for some 70% of youth by the turn of the century, rates of schizophrenia in the U.S. have remained flat, or possibly declined."

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2005559,00.html

[Dave]

There are people up here, who are using it to push an anti-firearm agenda. Compared to Arizona, we practically don't have guns to start with. We're not even int he same country.

Opportunists will use any situation, in order to push their personal agenda.

A crime that should be punishable by death

[goof2]

There are people up here, who are using it to push an anti-firearm agenda. Compared to Arizona, we practically don't have guns to start with. We're not even int he same country.

Opportunists will use any situation, in order to push their personal agenda.

Its happening here too. The people from the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence have started testing the waters with the argument that the Assault Weapons Ban's provisions against high capacity magazines allowed this. Pretty soon they will be on every network with the same argument. Again resorting to pure speculation, if the House was still Democrat controlled I believe there would be a very real chance of a new AWB getting rammed through.

[Papa_Complex]

Its happening here too. The people from the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence have started testing the waters with the argument that the Assault Weapons Ban's provisions against high capacity magazines allowed this. Pretty soon they will be on every network with the same argument. Again resorting to pure speculation, if the House was still Democrat controlled I believe there would be a very real chance of a new AWB getting rammed through.

People who make their bones by standing on other people's graves sicken me. We had a law, banning people under 21 from having ANY blood alcohol content in their blood while driving rammed through, because a father with money blamed other people for his son being a drunken lout, who took two of his friends with him when he drove into a river.

[Avatard]

No legislation will ever stop:

1) Terrorism
2) Risky behavior
3) Stupidity
4) Crimes of Morality

Lawmakers need to concentrate on what they CAN do to help, and stop pandering to alarm.

[Papa_Complex]

No legislation will ever stop:

1) Terrorism
2) Risky behavior
3) Stupidity
4) Crimes of Morality

Lawmakers need to concentrate on what they CAN do to help, and stop pandering to alarm.

While it would be nice, this will never happen. Humans are herd animals.

We react to perceived danger in a manner that is completely out of scale to the actual statistical possibility of harm. We worry that our children will be kidnapped or molested by some random stranger. We think that there's a massively impaired driver around every bend. There are terrorists in every small town, who are just waiting for the word to poison our water.

Because of this, governance by sound bite results in votes.

[goof2]

People who make their bones by standing on other people's graves sicken me. We had a law, banning people under 21 from having ANY blood alcohol content in their blood while driving rammed through, because a father with money blamed other people for his son being a drunken lout, who took two of his friends with him when he drove into a river.

That is the most effective, and really the only, tactic the anti-gun lobby has. They are dependent on emotional arguments swaying people. There are plenty of people who will support the anti-gun position, but when the argument is a logical one they can't get a majority. Hell, they are still trying to use the Virginia Tech massacre as a battering ram to close the so called "gun show loophole", even though that murdering bastard didn't buy any guns at a gun show.

Hopefully once cooler heads prevail people will realize that this murderer (and the VT murderer) are in the middle of two ideas that counter each other. Obviously guns shouldn't be sold to mentally unstable people, but medical privacy laws also mean that a legitimate gun retailer following all the rules isn't going to know about a diagnosis of mental instability even if such a diagnosis has been made.

[Papa_Complex]

That is the most effective, and really the only, tactic the anti-gun lobby has. They are dependent on emotional arguments swaying people. There are plenty of people who will support the anti-gun position, but when the argument is a logical one they can't get a majority. Hell, they are still trying to use the Virginia Tech massacre as a battering ram to close the so called "gun show loophole", even though that murdering bastard didn't buy any guns at a gun show.

Hopefully once cooler heads prevail people will realize that this murderer (and the VT murderer) are in the middle of two ideas that counter each other. Obviously guns shouldn't be sold to mentally unstable people, but medical privacy laws also mean that a legitimate gun retailer following all the rules isn't going to know about a diagnosis of mental instability even if such a diagnosis has been made.

The former mayor of Toronto, who just recently retired, was trying to push through a city-wide ban on firearms because of "all the gun related deaths in the city." Of course this left out some very important issues:

- gun control is not within the city's purview; it's Federal
- the vast majority of gun crimes were perpetrated with illegal firearms
- the vast majority of gun crimes were perpetrated by street gang members
- the vast majority of gun crimes were perpetrated ON street gang members
- the 'huge number' of murders, in Toronto, is a mere fraction of what can be found in a comparable US city

[goof2]

The former mayor of Toronto, who just recently retired, was trying to push through a city-wide ban on firearms because of "all the gun related deaths in the city." Of course this left out some very important issues:

- gun control is not within the city's purview; it's Federal
- the vast majority of gun crimes were perpetrated with illegal firearms
- the vast majority of gun crimes were perpetrated by street gang members
- the vast majority of gun crimes were perpetrated ON street gang members
- the 'huge number' of murders, in Toronto, is a mere fraction of what can be found in a comparable US city

Sounds about right. I'm just curious to see what, if any, legislation Congress attempts to pass over this massacre.

[101lifts2]

So politicians who lean to the right are all tools of the ruling elite?

Both sides....it's sad unfortunately. Except Libertarians. redflip

[askmrjesus]

Both sides....it's sad unfortunately. Except Libertarians. redflip

There's not much point in bribing someone who isn't going to get elected anyway. :lol:

JC

[Avatard]

True. Sad, but true.

[Trip]

Apparently they want mercedes benz logos instead of gun sights on Palin's map.

[Avatard]

Wow.

[Trip]

Wow.

I love it when people don't proofread, there is some great protest signs out there on both sides.

[Papa_Complex]

Apparently they want mercedes benz logos instead of gun sights on Palin's map.

Obviously you'll find more elites by looking for Mercedes, than you would looking for guns. They're just giving Palin some useful advice.

[Dave]

Apparently they want mercedes benz logos instead of gun sights on Palin's map.

proves just about everything ive had to say about those folks. retrograde humans ought to be eaten. :lol: doubt thered be any nutritional value in it though :lol:

[Avatard]

So freakshow's fucking parents are all over the news, whining and crying about how they had no idea.

Fucking really? Don't ya think that's odd, since everyone who ever ran into this freakshow said he was one of the most disturbed motherfuckers they ever met?

Fucking assholes raised a fucking mass murderer, and are now gonna pretend they had no clue?

Sorry, fuck you. Not buying it. In my mind, they bear some responsibility.

[Dave]

So freakshow's fucking parents are all over the news, whining and crying about how they had no idea.

Fucking really? Don't ya think that's odd, since everyone who ever ran into this freakshow said he was one of the most disturbed motherfuckers they ever met?

Fucking assholes raised a fucking mass murderer, and are now gonna pretend they had no clue?

Sorry, fuck you. Not buying it. In my mind, they bear some responsibility.

they can be eaten too

[Avatard]

With a fine Chianti and some fava beans?

[Dave]

With a fine Chianti and some fava beans?

i was thinking more like some pig slop :lol

[Papa_Complex]

So freakshow's fucking parents are all over the news, whining and crying about how they had no idea.

Fucking really? Don't ya think that's odd, since everyone who ever ran into this freakshow said he was one of the most disturbed motherfuckers they ever met?

Fucking assholes raised a fucking mass murderer, and are now gonna pretend they had no clue?

Sorry, fuck you. Not buying it. In my mind, they bear some responsibility.

The problem is that, after a human bomb like this guy goes off, suddenly EVERYONE says that they saw the warning signs. If they did, then why didn't they do something about it? Try to get some help for the person. Inform the authorities. Something.

Truth is that they just want their Warhol 15 minutes.

[Particle Man]

The problem is that, after a human bomb like this guy goes off, suddenly EVERYONE says that they saw the warning signs. If they did, then why didn't they do something about it? Try to get some help for the person. Inform the authorities. Something.

Truth is that they just want their Warhol 15 minutes.

Sorta this. Said "authorities" would probably just say that they can't do anything until he actually does something anyhow.

[Trip]

So freakshow's fucking parents are all over the news, whining and crying about how they had no idea.

Fucking really? Don't ya think that's odd, since everyone who ever ran into this freakshow said he was one of the most disturbed motherfuckers they ever met?

Fucking assholes raised a fucking mass murderer, and are now gonna pretend they had no clue?

Sorry, fuck you. Not buying it. In my mind, they bear some responsibility.

Parents of a friend of freakshow said that he was a nice attention/acceptance seeking kid. He was kind to them like he wanted acceptance from adults that his parents didn't give him. They also said they saw freakshow's mom in the store withe a 30+ case of beer every time they saw her. Alcoholic parents, probably abusive.

[udman]

Well, it seems our little freakshow was a fan of Zeitgeist and Loose Change.




Note found in home of Arizona shooting suspect called for Giffords to 'Die'

Published: Wednesday, January 12, 2011

TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) — The 22-year-old man accused of trying to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in a deadly shooting rampage wrote “Die, bitch” in a note found at his home, a sheriff’s official told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

Investigators believe Jared Loughner’s handwritten message was a reference to Giffords, Pima County Chief Rick Kastigar said. It was found in a safe alongside other ones, including “I planned ahead,” “My assassination” and the name “Giffords.”

Authorities also revealed other new information about the hours leading up to the Saturday shooting that killed six people and injured 14 others, including Giffords.

That morning, Jared Loughner’s father saw him take a black bag out of a car trunk, Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told the AP.

The father approached Loughner, and he mumbled something and took off running, Dupnik said. The father got in his truck and chased his son as he fled on foot.

Loughner took a taxi cab to the supermarket where the three-term Democrat was holding a meeting to hear the concerns of her constituents, authorities said earlier. Among those killed were a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl.

For all of it, Loughner’s parents, silent and holed up in their home since the shooting spree, apologized Tuesday.

“There are no words that can possibly express how we feel,” Randy and Amy Loughner wrote in a statement handed to reporters waiting outside their house. “We wish that there were, so we could make you feel better. We don’t understand why this happened.

“We care very deeply about the victims and their families. We are so very sorry for their loss.”

The apparent target of the attack, Giffords, 40, was able to breathe on her own Tuesday at an intensive care unit here, another hopeful sign of her progress, doctors said.

Meanwhile, the southern Arizona city shattered by the rampage prepared for an evening memorial service and a visit from President Barack Obama on Wednesday.

In addition the new details about the hours before the shooting, interviews on Tuesday with those who knew Loughner or his family painted a picture of a young loner who did try to fit in.

Before everything fell apart, he went through the motions as many young men do nowadays: Living at home with his parents, working low-wage jobs at big brand stores and volunteering time doing things he liked.

None of it worked. His relationship with his parents was strained. He clashed with co-workers and police. And he couldn’t follow the rules at an animal shelter where he spent some time.

One close high school friend who requested anonymity to avoid the publicity surrounding the case said he would wait outside 10 minutes for Jared to leave the house when they were going out.

When Jared would get into the car, he’d say that it took so long because his parents were hassling him.

The parents of another close friend recalled how Loughner’s parents showed up at their doorstep in 2008 looking for their son, who had left home about a week before and broken off contact.

While the friend, Zach Osler, didn’t want to talk with the AP, his parents Roxanne and George Osler IV did.

With the Loughners at their house, Zach Osler told them the name of the local hotel where their only child was staying, Zach’s father said. Jared moved back in, he said.

After that, Osler’s dad sometimes would see Mrs. Loughner at the local supermarket, though they didn’t chat much. He recalled that every time he saw her she had at least one 30-pack of beer in her cart.


Loughner, now 22, would come over several times a week from 2007 to 2008, the Oslers said.

The boys listened to the heavy metal band Slipknot and progressive rockers The Mars Volta, studied the form of meditative movement called tai chi, and watched and discussed movies.

Loughner’s favorites included little-known conspiracy theory documentaries such as “Zeitgeist” and “Loose Change” as well as bigger studio productions with cult followings and themes of brainwashing, science fiction and altered states of consciousness, including “Donnie Darko” and “A Scanner Darkly.”

Even in small talk, he struck the Oslers as unusual.

“He always said, ’Hi, Mrs. Osler. How are you today?’ When he left he made a point of coming over and saying, ’Thank you for having me over,“’ said Roxanne Osler, noting that was not typical for Zach’s friends. “Jared struck me as a young man who craved attention and acceptance.”

Once he shared with the Oslers a short story he had written about a reporter meeting an angel during the apocalypse.

George Osler IV read it, thought it was well written, but couldn’t identify the point.

“He seemed like he was kind of offended that I didn’t get the message,” George Osler said.

Meanwhile, the unfailingly polite kid they knew was getting into trouble.

Loughner was arrested in October 2008 on a vandalism charge near Tucson after admitting that he vandalized a road sign with a magic marker, scrawling the letters “C” and “X” in a reference to what he said was Christianity.


The police report said Loughner admitted to other acts of vandalism in the area.

The case was ultimately dismissed after he paid a $500 fine and completed a diversion program.

Even when Loughner tried to do good, it didn’t work out.

A year ago, he volunteered walking adoptable dogs at the county animal shelter, said Kim Janes, manager of the Pima Animal Care Center. He liked dogs; neighbors remember him as the kid they would see walking his own.

At the shelter, staff became concerned: He was allowing dogs to play in an area that was being disinfected after one had contracted a potentially deadly disease, the parvovirus.

“He didn’t think the disease was that threatening and when we tried to explain how dangerous some of the diseases are. He didn’t get it,” Janes said.

He wouldn’t agree to keep dogs from the restricted area, and was asked to come back when he would. He never returned.

Loughner also jumped from paid job to job because he couldn’t get along with co-workers, according to the close high school friend who requested anonymity. Employers included a Quiznos sandwich shop and Banana Republic, the friend said.

On his application at the animal shelter, he listed customer service work at Eddie Bauer.

Loughner grew up on an unremarkable Tucson block of low-slung homes with palm trees and cactus gardens out front. Fittingly, it’s called Soledad Avenue — Spanish for solitude.

Solitude found Loughner, even when he tried to escape it. He had buddies but always fell out of touch, typically severing the friendship with a text message. Zach Osler was one such friend.

Loughner’s father moved into the house as a bachelor, and eventually got married, longtime next-door neighbor George Gayan said. Property records show Randy Loughner has lived there since 1977.

Gayan said he and Randy Loughner had “differences of opinion but nothing where it was radical or violent.” He declined to provide specifics. “As time went on, they indicated they wanted privacy,” Gayan said.

Unlike other homes on the block, the Loughners’ is obscured by plants. It was assessed in 2010 at $137,842.

Randy Loughner apparently has not worked for years — at least outside his home. He did fix up cars. Gayan said he had three “show cars” and two of Jared Lougher’s friends said he bought a junker ’69 orange Chevrolet Nova and made it pristine.

Amy Loughner got a job with the county parks and recreation department just before Jared was born, and since at least 2002 has been the supervisor for Roy P. Drachman Agua Caliente Park on the outskirts of the city. She earns $25.70 an hour, according to Gwyn Hatcher, Pima County’s human resources director.

“She’s worked hard, done a good job of keeping it looking good,” said Charles Ford, a former Tucson City Council member who is a board member of Friends of Agua Caliente Park.

Linda McKinley, 62, has lived down the street from the Loughner family for decades and said the parents could not be nicer — but that she had misgivings about Jared as he got older.

“As a parent, my heart aches for them,” she said.

She added that when she was outside watering her plants she would see Jared riding down the street on his bike, often talking to himself or yelling out randomly to no one.

Once he yelled to some children on the street: “I’m coming to get you!” McKinley said.


TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) — The 22-year-old man accused of trying to assassinate Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in a deadly shooting rampage wrote “Die, bitch” in a note found at his home, a sheriff’s official told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

Investigators believe Jared Loughner’s handwritten message was a reference to Giffords, Pima County Chief Rick Kastigar said. It was found in a safe alongside other ones, including “I planned ahead,” “My assassination” and the name “Giffords.”

Authorities also revealed other new information about the hours leading up to the Saturday shooting that killed six people and injured 14 others, including Giffords.

That morning, Jared Loughner’s father saw him take a black bag out of a car trunk, Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told the AP.

The father approached Loughner, and he mumbled something and took off running, Dupnik said. The father got in his truck and chased his son as he fled on foot.

Loughner took a taxi cab to the supermarket where the three-term Democrat was holding a meeting to hear the concerns of her constituents, authorities said earlier. Among those killed were a federal judge and a 9-year-old girl.

For all of it, Loughner’s parents, silent and holed up in their home since the shooting spree, apologized Tuesday.

“There are no words that can possibly express how we feel,” Randy and Amy Loughner wrote in a statement handed to reporters waiting outside their house. “We wish that there were, so we could make you feel better. We don’t understand why this happened.

“We care very deeply about the victims and their families. We are so very sorry for their loss.”

The apparent target of the attack, Giffords, 40, was able to breathe on her own Tuesday at an intensive care unit here, another hopeful sign of her progress, doctors said.

Meanwhile, the southern Arizona city shattered by the rampage prepared for an evening memorial service and a visit from President Barack Obama on Wednesday.

In addition the new details about the hours before the shooting, interviews on Tuesday with those who knew Loughner or his family painted a picture of a young loner who did try to fit in.

Before everything fell apart, he went through the motions as many young men do nowadays: Living at home with his parents, working low-wage jobs at big brand stores and volunteering time doing things he liked.

None of it worked. His relationship with his parents was strained. He clashed with co-workers and police. And he couldn’t follow the rules at an animal shelter where he spent some time.

One close high school friend who requested anonymity to avoid the publicity surrounding the case said he would wait outside 10 minutes for Jared to leave the house when they were going out.

When Jared would get into the car, he’d say that it took so long because his parents were hassling him.

The parents of another close friend recalled how Loughner’s parents showed up at their doorstep in 2008 looking for their son, who had left home about a week before and broken off contact.

While the friend, Zach Osler, didn’t want to talk with the AP, his parents Roxanne and George Osler IV did.

With the Loughners at their house, Zach Osler told them the name of the local hotel where their only child was staying, Zach’s father said. Jared moved back in, he said.

After that, Osler’s dad sometimes would see Mrs. Loughner at the local supermarket, though they didn’t chat much. He recalled that every time he saw her she had at least one 30-pack of beer in her cart.

Loughner, now 22, would come over several times a week from 2007 to 2008, the Oslers said.

The boys listened to the heavy metal band Slipknot and progressive rockers The Mars Volta, studied the form of meditative movement called tai chi, and watched and discussed movies.

Loughner’s favorites included little-known conspiracy theory documentaries such as “Zeitgeist” and “Loose Change” as well as bigger studio productions with cult followings and themes of brainwashing, science fiction and altered states of consciousness, including “Donnie Darko” and “A Scanner Darkly.”

Even in small talk, he struck the Oslers as unusual.

“He always said, ’Hi, Mrs. Osler. How are you today?’ When he left he made a point of coming over and saying, ’Thank you for having me over,“’ said Roxanne Osler, noting that was not typical for Zach’s friends. “Jared struck me as a young man who craved attention and acceptance.”

Once he shared with the Oslers a short story he had written about a reporter meeting an angel during the apocalypse.

George Osler IV read it, thought it was well written, but couldn’t identify the point.

“He seemed like he was kind of offended that I didn’t get the message,” George Osler said.

Meanwhile, the unfailingly polite kid they knew was getting into trouble.

Loughner was arrested in October 2008 on a vandalism charge near Tucson after admitting that he vandalized a road sign with a magic marker, scrawling the letters “C” and “X” in a reference to what he said was Christianity.

The police report said Loughner admitted to other acts of vandalism in the area.

The case was ultimately dismissed after he paid a $500 fine and completed a diversion program.

Even when Loughner tried to do good, it didn’t work out.

A year ago, he volunteered walking adoptable dogs at the county animal shelter, said Kim Janes, manager of the Pima Animal Care Center. He liked dogs; neighbors remember him as the kid they would see walking his own.

At the shelter, staff became concerned: He was allowing dogs to play in an area that was being disinfected after one had contracted a potentially deadly disease, the parvovirus.

“He didn’t think the disease was that threatening and when we tried to explain how dangerous some of the diseases are. He didn’t get it,” Janes said.

He wouldn’t agree to keep dogs from the restricted area, and was asked to come back when he would. He never returned.

Loughner also jumped from paid job to job because he couldn’t get along with co-workers, according to the close high school friend who requested anonymity. Employers included a Quiznos sandwich shop and Banana Republic, the friend said.

On his application at the animal shelter, he listed customer service work at Eddie Bauer.

Loughner grew up on an unremarkable Tucson block of low-slung homes with palm trees and cactus gardens out front. Fittingly, it’s called Soledad Avenue — Spanish for solitude.

Solitude found Loughner, even when he tried to escape it. He had buddies but always fell out of touch, typically severing the friendship with a text message. Zach Osler was one such friend.

Loughner’s father moved into the house as a bachelor, and eventually got married, longtime next-door neighbor George Gayan said. Property records show Randy Loughner has lived there since 1977.

Gayan said he and Randy Loughner had “differences of opinion but nothing where it was radical or violent.” He declined to provide specifics. “As time went on, they indicated they wanted privacy,” Gayan said.

Unlike other homes on the block, the Loughners’ is obscured by plants. It was assessed in 2010 at $137,842.

Randy Loughner apparently has not worked for years — at least outside his home. He did fix up cars. Gayan said he had three “show cars” and two of Jared Lougher’s friends said he bought a junker ’69 orange Chevrolet Nova and made it pristine.

Amy Loughner got a job with the county parks and recreation department just before Jared was born, and since at least 2002 has been the supervisor for Roy P. Drachman Agua Caliente Park on the outskirts of the city. She earns $25.70 an hour, according to Gwyn Hatcher, Pima County’s human resources director.

“She’s worked hard, done a good job of keeping it looking good,” said Charles Ford, a former Tucson City Council member who is a board member of Friends of Agua Caliente Park.

Linda McKinley, 62, has lived down the street from the Loughner family for decades and said the parents could not be nicer — but that she had misgivings about Jared as he got older.

“As a parent, my heart aches for them,” she said.

She added that when she was outside watering her plants she would see Jared riding down the street on his bike, often talking to himself or yelling out randomly to no one.

Once he yelled to some children on the street: “I’m coming to get you!” McKinley said.

[shmike]

Well, it seems our little freakshow was a fan of Zeitgeist and Loose Change.



Sounds about right.

[goof2]

Not surprising.

[Rangerscott]

Ya'll think the Glifford family is gonna hold the dad responsible?

[derf]

Ya'll think the Glifford family is gonna hold the dad responsible?

No, she's a politician and hes a astronaut, they understand good and bad publicity, and holding the parents responsible would turn into bad publicity, especially without concrete proof. Maybe a few comments about his parents and his upbringing in the book the congressman is gonna write eventually about this but that should be it. As a dem she is gonna go holier than thou on gun control though, wouldnt surprise me to see some states require a psych eval before you can purchase a gun.

[goof2]

No, she's a politician and hes a astronaut, they understand good and bad publicity, and holding the parents responsible would turn into bad publicity, especially without concrete proof. Maybe a few comments about his parents and his upbringing in the book the congressman is gonna write eventually about this but that should be it. As a dem she is gonna go holier than thou on gun control though, wouldnt surprise me to see some states require a psych eval before you can purchase a gun.

I agree with most of this, but she may not go for the gun control thing. From what I understand she has been about as pro-gun as a Democrat is going to get. I figure its about 30/70 odds Giffords introduces gun control legislation named after Christina Green. I would put better odds, maybe 60/40, that if Giffords has most of her faculties after she recovers she will be running against Kyl for his Senate seat in 2012.

[pauldun170]

http://tv.gawker.com/5732292/jon-stewart-questions-lawmakers-reactions-to-the-arizona-shooting

[Avatard]

The problem is that, after a human bomb like this guy goes off, suddenly EVERYONE says that they saw the warning signs. If they did, then why didn't they do something about it? Try to get some help for the person. Inform the authorities. Something.

Truth is that they just want their Warhol 15 minutes.

Ennnnhhhh, not so much, as it turns out.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/12/5826284-records-show-fear-of-loughner-lack-of-mental-health-intervention

He was apparently already causing considerable alarm.

[Papa_Complex]

Ennnnhhhh, not so much, as it turns out.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/01/12/5826284-records-show-fear-of-loughner-lack-of-mental-health-intervention

He was apparently already causing considerable alarm.

Then this case is pretty different from the norm, and someone seriously dropped the ball.

[Archren]

Then this case is pretty different from the norm, and someone seriously dropped the ball.

Sounds akin to the Fort Hood shooter. Signs all over the place, but no one wanted to rock the boat and send the guy to mental health counseling.

Not sure that it would have been productive in this case - particularly since the kid had a "me vs. them" mentality, and any attempt to try and get through to him would probably have been dismissed.

[Kaneman]

Sounds akin to the Fort Hood shooter. Signs all over the place, but no one wanted to rock the boat and send the guy to mental health counseling.

Not sure that it would have been productive in this case - particularly since the kid had a "me vs. them" mentality, and any attempt to try and get through to him would probably have been dismissed.

There was a shooter at Fort Hood? Oh yea that's right....that one kinda got swept under the rug eh?

[derf]

There was a shooter at Fort Hood? Oh yea that's right....that one kinda got swept under the rug eh?

Dude hasn't even been tried yet

[Dave]

Dude hasn't even been tried yet

Gotta wait for those sharia courts

[Trip]

Dude hasn't even been tried yet

Stop stealing Sarah Palin's kids blood.

[derf]

Stop stealing Sarah Palin's kids blood.

No

[CasterTroy]

Sounds akin to the Fort Hood shooter. Signs all over the place, but no one wanted to rock the boat and send the guy to mental health counseling.



But he didn’t break any “student codes” or any laws :idk:

This is where you get into a gray area of intrusion into a person’s rights.

YEAH, you and I know this dude is mental, and needs some help…..but who are you and I?

I mean, I’m all for a law that says if 2 or more people think you’re doing something stupid, one of you get to slap him till he stops. Or if 2 or more people think you deserve to have your license revoked because you drive like an asshole, then BAM it happens.
But who are the 2 or more? Avatard and Paul? God help the republicans in the world! What if it were 101 and BabyG?
This is why the system sucks, but it’s better than nothing. It at least protects the people who AREN’T going to snap and kill ½ dozen people from the know-it-all’s of the world that think THEY know what’s best for everyone.
I mean really….would you like to see Sarah Palin with ultimate control like that?

However in this instance...it failed :(

[derf]

But he didn’t break any “student codes” or any laws :idk:

This is where you get into a gray area of intrusion into a person’s rights.

YEAH, you and I know this dude is mental, and needs some help…..but who are you and I?

I mean, I’m all for a law that says if 2 or more people think you’re doing something stupid, one of you get to slap him till he stops. Or if 2 or more people think you deserve to have your license revoked because you drive like an asshole, then BAM it happens.
But who are the 2 or more? Avatard and Paul? God help the republicans in the world! What if it were 101 and BabyG?
This is why the system sucks, but it’s better than nothing. It at least protects the people who AREN’T going to snap and kill ½ dozen people from the know-it-all’s of the world that think THEY know what’s best for everyone.
I mean really….would you like to see Sarah Palin with ultimate control like that?

However in this instance...it failed :(


In the Ft Hood case the guy was a military officer and he SHOULD be above reproach. If someone had a serious question about his mental abilities and current state yes, he should have been looked at. It's called a health and welfare inspection, and it can be used anytime by the command to look at a person.

Loughtner guy is a private citizen, yes if he slipped through the cracks there really is nothing anyone could have done

[Papa_Complex]

In the Ft Hood case the guy was a military officer and he SHOULD be above reproach. If someone had a serious question about his mental abilities and current state yes, he should have been looked at. It's called a health and welfare inspection, and it can be used anytime by the command to look at a person.

Loughtner guy is a private citizen, yes if he slipped through the cracks there really is nothing anyone could have done

I suppose that this sort of thing pretty much has to happen before a private citizen can get tossed in the quilted closet, if they don't remand voluntarily. We just had a homeless guy steal a snow plow in Toronto, then go on a rampage smashing up vehicles, before they finally caught him. He killed a cop who was trying to stop him, along the way.

[Hydrant]

They were saying on the radio that friends, teachers, counslers, and psychologists all said that he was mentally unstable. It was mentioned then how come none of the psychologists ever said anything to any authority and it pretty much came down to patient - doctor priviledges.

[goof2]

They were saying on the radio that friends, teachers, counslers, and psychologists all said that he was mentally unstable. It was mentioned then how come none of the psychologists ever said anything to any authority and it pretty much came down to patient - doctor priviledges.

Yeah, I talked about that a little in an earlier post referencing this guy and the Virginia Tech shooter. Creating laws that attempt to restrict gun ownership by the mentally unstable is nice, but ultimately useless. Even if Laughner had been diagnosed as such, medical privacy laws most likely would have prevented the store that sold him the gun from knowing anything about it anyway. The way it works now a mentally unstable person effectively has to decide on their own that they shouldn't have a gun because there is very little that can be done to prevent them from buying one.

[Papa_Complex]

Actually there is another possibility, but it's almost equally remote. If a person reveals to a medical professional that he's going to commit a crime, then patient confidentiality is waived.

For example: Mr. Bundy tells his psychiatrist that he's going to kill his neighbour, then store his meat in the freezer at his house. Said psychiatrist is obliged to inform the authorities.

[askmrjesus]

Actually there is another possibility, but it's almost equally remote. If a person reveals to a medical professional that he's going to commit a crime, then patient confidentiality is waived.

For example: Mr. Bundy tells his psychiatrist that he's going to kill his neighbour, then store his meat in the freezer at his house. Said psychiatrist is obliged to inform the authorities.

I think that may already be the case.

Actually, I know it is, but it doesn't work, if said nutbag has no doctor.

JC

[Homeslice]

They were saying on the radio that friends, teachers, counslers, and psychologists all said that he was mentally unstable. It was mentioned then how come none of the psychologists ever said anything to any authority and it pretty much came down to patient - doctor priviledges.

"Mentally unstable" is not an accepted medical diagnosis, it's a huge gray area.

Even words like "psychosis" don't mean anything. EVERYONE has a little psychosis in them. Look it up.

I don't want the government putting people on a special list because of bullshit "diagnoses" like that. The whole "sex offender" thing is bad enough.

[Papa_Complex]

I think that may already be the case.

Actually, I know it is, but it doesn't work, if said nutbag has no doctor.

JC

Sorry, that's what I was saying; that this is already the case. It also doesn't work if said nut-job doesn't say to his doctor, "I can't make next week's appointment, because I've got plans to run through a shopping mall with a katana. Can we reschedule?"

[Trip]

Sorry, that's what I was saying; that this is already the case. It also doesn't work if said nut-job doesn't say to his doctor, "I can't make next week's appointment, because I've got plans to run through a shopping mall with a katana. Can we reschedule?"

Have you been talking to my boss?

I said it like Lucy Lu on Kill Bill....Katananananannanananananannanana

[Papa_Complex]

Have you been talking to my boss?

I said it like Lucy Lu on Kill Bill....Katananananannanananananannanana

You'll have to be specific. I talk to lots of people. Unfortunately some of them can't be seen by others.