Libyan streets filled with blood

[tallywacker]

Report: Libya fighter jets attack protesters in Tripoli
2 pilots defect; death toll climbs; U.S. orders non-emergency embassy staff out

TRIPOLI — Libyan military aircraft fired live ammunition at crowds of anti-government protesters in Tripoli, Al-Jazeera television reported Monday.

"What we are witnessing today is unimaginable," said Adel Mohamed Saleh, an activist in the capital whose accounts could not be independently confirmed. "Warplanes and helicopters are indiscriminately bombing one area after another. There are many, many dead.

"Our people are dying. It is the policy of scorched earth," he said.

Fathi al-Warfali, the Libyan activist who heads the Swiss-based Libyan Committee for Truth and Justice, who was taking part in a protest outside U.N. European headquarters in Geneva, said he had heard the same reports.

The accounts came as deep cracks opened in Moammar Gadhafi's regime after more than 40 years in power, with diplomats abroad and the justice minister at home resigning, air force pilots defecting and a fire raging at the main government hall after the clashes in the capital Tripoli. Protesters called for another night of defiance in Tripoli's main square despite the government's heavy crackdown.

Arabiya television said the Tripoli clashes Monday left 160 dead.

Human Rights Watch said Monday that at least 233 people had been killed since the protests began last week, but opposition groups put the figure much higher. Most fatalities were in Benghazi, a region where Gadhafi's grip has always been weaker than elsewhere in the oil-producing desert nation.



Gadhafi's son vowed Sunday that his father and security forces would fight "until the last bullet."

An analyst for London-based consultancy Control Risks said the use of military aircraft on his own people indicated the end was approaching for Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
Story: What you need to know about the unrest in the Mideast

"These really seem to be last, desperate acts. If you're bombing your own capital, it's really hard to see how you can survive, " said Julien Barnes-Dacey, Control Risks' Middle East analyst.

"But I think Gaddafi is going to put up a fight ... in Libya more than any other country in the region, there is the prospect of serious violence and outright conflict," he said.

Gadhafi's regime appeared to be preparing a new major assault in the capital Monday night. State TV at nightfall announced that the military had "stormed the hideouts of saboteurs" and called on the public to back the security forces as protesters called for a new demonstration in central Green Square and in front of Gadhafi's Tripoli residence.

Snipers had taken position on the roofs of buildings around Tripoli, apparently to stop people from outside the capital from joining the march, according to Mohammed Abdul-Malek, a London-based opposition activist in touch with residents.

Communications into the capital appeared to have been cut, and mobile phones of residents could not be reached from outside the country. State TV showed images of hundreds of Gadhafi supporters rallying in central Green Square Monday evening, waving pictures of the Libyan leader and palm fronds.

Fighter pilots claim asylum
Reuters reported that two Libyan fighter jets flown by Libyan air force colonels were granted permission to land in Malta after asking for political asylum.

They had left from a base near Tripoli and had flown low over Libyan airspace to avoid detection. They arrived shortly after two civilian helicopters carrying seven people claiming to be French landed after a flight from Libya.

Sources said the fighter pilots defected because they would not fire on the Tripoli protesters.

U.K.-based opposition activist Ahmed Sawalem, who is keeping in touch with protesters in Libya, told msnbc.com that there were reports of planes bombing a weapons store south of Benghazi in Ajdabiya "so the protesters cannot get hold of them, to use them to fight." He said a number of people in the area were thought to have been killed in the attack.
Video: Violence in Libya, nearing civil war (on this page)

A suggestion that Gadhafi may have fled was fueled when British Foreign Secretary William Hague said he had "some information" the dictator was heading for Venezuela.


However a senior government source in Caracas denied that and a U.K. official said Hague had been referring only to unconfirmed media reports.

[tallywacker]

9:46pm: Confirmed - Ali al-Essawi, ambassador to India, has resigned. He has accused the government of deploying foreign mercenaries against Libyan citizens.

9:51pm: New airstrikes have hit Al Joumhouria [The republic] Street in Tripoli, eyewitnesses tell Al Jazeera Arabic.

10:03pm: Two senior diplomats at the Libyan embassy to Washington DC have reportedly resigned.

10:25pm: More on the resignation of the two diplomats from the embassy in Washington DC. Counsels Saleh Ali Al Majbari and Jumaa Faris denounced Gaddafi, saying he "bears responsibility for genocide against the Libyan people in which he has used mercenaries".

Short update

[Trip]

damn, shit is going crazy over there.

[shmike]

damn, shit is going crazy over there.

Has been for years.

They never got over Doc stealing their plutonium back in '85.

[LeeNetworX]

Has been for years.

They never got over Doc stealing their plutonium back in '85.

http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4816812/I-gave-those-Libyan-bitches-pinball-machine-parts-Libyan-bitches-LOVE-pinball-machine-parts.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=doc-brown

[Trip]

has been for years.

They never got over doc stealing their plutonium back in '85.

1.21 jiggawatts!

[CasterTroy]

:lol

[tommymac]

guess its the in thing now. egyptians protested and got a new govt so I guess everyone will over there.

[askmrjesus]

I'm conflicted.

On the one hand, it's not cool to shoot unarmed people, just because they think you're an asshole.

On the other hand, this is the same country that threw a party for the Lockerbie Bomber after his release from a Scottish prison, so...

Fuck 'em.

JC

[tommymac]

I'm conflicted.

On the one hand, it's not cool to shoot unarmed people, just because they think you're an asshole.

On the other hand, this is the same country that threw a party for the Lockerbie Bomber after his release from a Scottish prison, so...

Fuck 'em.

JC

had we taken him outy back in the 80's none of this would have ever happened, or was that if woody went straight to the police.

So get ready for 5 dollar a gallon gas prices now

[derf]

Yup, gonna be riding a bicycle to work this summer

[tommymac]

Yup, gonna be riding a bicycle to work this summer

hoping we get the wtc gig so I can take the train to work even though thats going up too.

[askmrjesus]

had we taken him outy back in the 80's none of this would have ever happened, or was that if woody went straight to the police.

So get ready for 5 dollar a gallon gas prices now

That's the problem with Band-Aid foreign policy. Reagan blew up one of his kids, but failed to pull the trigger on Daffy, (probably to keep oil prices stable).

Look how that worked out...

JC

[Amber Lamps]

had we taken him outy back in the 80's none of this would have ever happened, or was that if woody went straight to the police.

So get ready for 5 dollar a gallon gas prices now

I was on alert for over a week behind that crap!!! We thought for sure we were heading out to fuck that scruffy little bastard up!!!:rockwoot:

[pauldun170]

If I were a pilot ordered to bomb my fellow citizens I would not defect because as soon as you defect you not only lose your wings you end up unemployed.
If the economy was better then yes I'd defect but in this job market y'all better stay off the streets

[Mikey]

Fuck 'em.


This.

[goof2]

That's the problem with Band-Aid foreign policy. Reagan blew up one of his kids, but failed to pull the trigger on Daffy, (probably to keep oil prices stable).

Look how that worked out...

JC

Guided munitions are great and all but I don't think they were good enough in 1986 to selectively kill only certain members of a family running from the same house.:shrug:

[Papa_Complex]

I'm conflicted.

On the one hand, it's not cool to shoot unarmed people, just because they think you're an asshole.

On the other hand, this is the same country that threw a party for the Lockerbie Bomber after his release from a Scottish prison, so...

Fuck 'em.

JC

You've got to remember that frequently those "spontaneous shows of support" are government organized, in places like Libya.

[askmrjesus]

Guided munitions are great and all but I don't think they were good enough in 1986 to selectively kill only certain members of a family running from the same house.:shrug:

If at first you don't succeed...

You've got to remember that frequently those "spontaneous shows of support" are government organized, in places like Libya.

I know, this is why I'm conflicted.

I need to know which of the protesters was shouting "Death To America" before they decided to shout "Death To Kadafi", before I can decide which ones to feel sorry for.

JC

[Papa_Complex]

I know, this is why I'm conflicted.

I need to know which of the protesters was shouting "Death To America" before they decided to shout "Death To Kadafi", before I can decide which ones to feel sorry for.

JC

If what I've been told is anything to go by, feel sorry for most of the ones who don't work in the government. Government workers are frequently handed signs and then trucked out, to show "spontaneous support for the government."

[Dave]

If what I've been told is anything to go by, feel sorry for most of the ones who don't work in the government. Government workers are frequently handed signs and then trucked out, to show "spontaneous support for the government."

They have seiu too? :lmao:

[EpyonXero]

This was taken in Bahrain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1

[KSGregman]

This was taken in Bahrain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1

We've spent a fortune on essentially bribing the "King" of that shit hole into letting us base the US 5th fleet in his island "country."

Why?

To ensure our access to cheap Saudi oil....and don't even ask how much we've spent bribing/protecting THOSE assholes.

It's still amazing to me how many people drink the kool-aid...believe the lies our government tells us....that muslims hate us for our freedoms....for our different religion.

Maybe some of them do....but....

The vast majority of them hate us because we prop up dictators that do shit like what we just saw in that video because it suits our larger aims.

See?

Freedom and democracy are only words when access to oil is on the line. Otherwise, 100 million people living in Eygpt and elsewhere in the Middle East are only "equity to be managed" in the words of a member of government I saw on a Sunday morning talk show.

THEIR hopes? THEIR dreams of a better future for themselves or for their kids? Meaningless in OUR "big picture" of give us cheap oil. :td:

Their hatred of us is grounded in the REAL world and we're stupid to EVER believe otherwise.

[Sixxxxer]

It makes me absolutely sick to my stomach that we the fucking Unites states of america have to let Oil Speculators control the fucking price of Oil.

If it hits 5$ a Gallon You will flat out see millions of people just stop driving all together. Theirs no way to afford it. I will literally be on my motorcycle Rain or shine at that point. The Ram is a thirsty bitch.

And the thing I love the most, all these car companies boast Higer MPG cars and going green and doing better things...Aint gonna offset the Already rising gas prices we are dealing with...so you had a 12 MPG truck before when gas was 2 dollars a gallon...Now it gets 20MPG but gas is 5 dollars a gallon...

You'll see ALOT of theft happening and people trying to scam gas stations over what was said and what was put into the car.

Buckle your seatbelts. it gonna get ugly

[Dave]

And we still won't allow our own drilling

[Sixxxxer]

From what I gather...Alaska is just sitting there waiting to be raped and pillaged...And ALSO if we drilled within the USA it would tumble prices to damn near 1$ a Gallon again.

I'm sorry but Fuck the wildlife.

[Dave]

From what I gather...Alaska is just sitting there waiting to be raped and pillaged...And ALSO if we drilled within the USA it would tumble prices to damn near 1$ a Gallon again.

I'm sorry but Fuck the wildlife.

Don't forget all the shale lands in north flyover

[Sixxxxer]

Theres a mixed Argument...Half the assfucks who dont know for sure say it wouldnt make a difference, half of them say it would.

I say lets drill and supply ourselves and stop relying on countries who fucking hate us.

I can barely accept and afford 3$ a gallon...5$ is gonna make me contemplate trading my truck in.

[KSGregman]

It makes me absolutely sick to my stomach that we the fucking Unites states of america have to let Oil Speculators control the fucking price of Oil.

What should REALLY make you sick to your stomach is the fact that we've known all along that the TRUE cost of oil (including the cost of maintaining our Empire in the Middle East to protect our access to the oil) is far too high....both in dollars and morality. We've also known all along that oil is a finite resource and that there ARE alternatives available.

Have we made a "Manhattan Project" scale effort and unlocking the potential of any alternatives?

Nope.....

Why?

Because Big Oil doesn't want us to.

So we whore ourselves out to murderous dictators while preaching "FREEDOM!!" and "DEMOCRACY!!"....never realizing that it is exactly THIS hypocrisy that inspires those people to hate us.

[Sixxxxer]

Yeah...It all makes me sick. Fucking ridiculous. These Libiyan fucks are gonna drive prices up murder innocent people and demand the citizens of the country do what they say or well, you die.

Whats even worse is Ghadafi's Son...Dude is straight Postal...He's off his fucking rocker. That family isnt stepping down form anything anytime soon.

[tommymac]

I ma sure the oil companies and investors are quite content of the situation.

[Sixxxxer]

wouldnt you be? It just sickens me as a US citizen

[tommymac]

wouldnt you be? It just sickens me as a US citizen

corporate greed, plus they too know oil is a finite resource, might as well make as much while they can off of this

[Sixxxxer]

I think there gonna be making money off it for awhile...There desperately trying to control the upcoming electric/hybrid tech coming out of the auto manufactures.

I do like the new Chevy Volt...neat little car, Just dunno if I'd fit in one Lol

[tommymac]

I think there gonna be making money off it for awhile...There desperately trying to control the upcoming electric/hybrid tech coming out of the auto manufactures.

I do like the new Chevy Volt...neat little car, Just dunno if I'd fit in one Lol

Best part withthese situations is the prices shoot up right away yet will take months to go back down.

[goof2]

I think there gonna be making money off it for awhile...There desperately trying to control the upcoming electric/hybrid tech coming out of the auto manufactures.

I do like the new Chevy Volt...neat little car, Just dunno if I'd fit in one Lol

This doesn't make any sense. The best way to effectively combat electric and hybrid vehicles is to keep fuel prices low enough for the extra cost to not make sense. The most effective advertisement for the new technology was when oil was over $140 per barrel. At that point Prius' were flying out the door and dealerships couldn't give trucks and SUVs away. Expensive oil is counterproductive to continuing our nation's collective dependence on oil.

[Sixxxxer]

You would think. But think about it...If Electric/Hydrogen/Whatever takes over Gas powered cars..All the sudden those Speculators/Oil Tycoons/Everyone who makes money off of it...Starts to LOOSE money.


Makes sense, in a odd weird sort of way. I just dont agree with it.

[goof2]

You would think. But think about it...If Electric/Hydrogen/Whatever takes over Gas powered cars..All the sudden those Speculators/Oil Tycoons/Everyone who makes money off of it...Starts to LOOSE money.


Makes sense, in a odd weird sort of way. I just dont agree with it.

What is there to not agree with? What you said above is exactly what I'm saying, I just carried it out to its natural conclusion. Nothing pushes people toward those "Electric/Hydrogen/Whatever" cars more than high oil/gas prices.

[tommymac]

What is there to not agree with? What you said above is exactly what I'm saying, I just carried it out to its natural conclusion. Nothing pushes people toward those "Electric/Hydrogen/Whatever" cars more than high oil/gas prices.

Going to see everyone buying the hybrids and smart cars again esp if this thing doesnt resolve quickly.

[Dave]

corporate greed, plus they too know oil is a finite resource, might as well make as much while they can off of this

Again, just how the hell is oil finite? Or do you guys really believe the main ingredient is dinosaurs?

[tommymac]

Again, just how the hell is oil finite? Or do you guys really believe the main ingredient is dinosaurs?

As far as getting it out of the ground I would believe it is, unless there are some elves down there making more out of pixie dust :lol:

[Sixxxxer]

What is there to not agree with? What you said above is exactly what I'm saying, I just carried it out to its natural conclusion. Nothing pushes people toward those "Electric/Hydrogen/Whatever" cars more than high oil/gas prices.

I misunderstood you i thought you were questioning it.

I LOVE my truck...but 5 Bucks a fucking gallon, Makes me think about other options.

[tommymac]

I misunderstood you i thought you were questioning it.

I LOVE my truck...but 5 Bucks a fucking gallon, Makes me think about other options.

Also depends on your commute, with the er and side jobs I rack up a lot of miles so the ole priller will be doing a lot of commuting duty

[Sixxxxer]

The issue with me, Sometimes I get moved to Different stores...Right now its 16 Miles one way to work...I see the SixR getting ALOT of miles this year if they keep rising...Like I said even during the rain. I think the only time I'd drive the truck is if I needed to take people places or go to the store and couldnt fit what I was buying in my tailbag.

And If it was downright POURING then I'd drive the truck...Otherwise I'll take 36MPG over 13 Anyday...lol

[goof2]

I misunderstood you i thought you were questioning it.

I LOVE my truck...but 5 Bucks a fucking gallon, Makes me think about other options.

Your thinking about other options does a lot more damage to the petrolium industry than low oil prices.

[Sixxxxer]

I agree, B/c f I had lower Gas prices...Id drive a HELL of alot more than I do now

[tommymac]

I agree, B/c f I had lower Gas prices...Id drive a HELL of alot more than I do now

thats the trickle down effect, higher gas prices means fewer people traveling for vacations, companies passing on the higher costs to consumers for goods so people buy fewer or less of said goods.

[EpyonXero]

How about we truly put our money and effort into moving beyond oil instead of putting a band-aid over the problem by drilling or mining shale.

[Dave]

As far as getting it out of the ground I would believe it is, unless there are some elves down there making more out of pixie dust :lol:

elves no, giant fucking fission reaction yes

[Mikey]

The issue with me, Sometimes I get moved to Different stores...Right now its 16 Miles one way to work...I see the SixR getting ALOT of miles this year if they keep rising...Like I said even during the rain. I think the only time I'd drive the truck is if I needed to take people places or go to the store and couldnt fit what I was buying in my tailbag.

And If it was downright POURING then I'd drive the truck...Otherwise I'll take 36MPG over 13 Anyday...lol

My vehicles include my 15mpg truck, 20mpg car (that only takes premium) or 40mpg bike. I commute 50-70 miles per day. Guess what's about to start getting a lot more miles?

thats the trickle down effect, higher gas prices means fewer people traveling for vacations, companies passing on the higher costs to consumers for goods so people buy fewer or less of said goods.

My wife and I are already talking about cancelling the trip we had planned for May, and it was only two states over. Of course, one of those states is Texas, but still...

elves no, giant fucking fission reaction yes

Wut?

[azoomm]

Your thinking about other options does a lot more damage to the petrolium industry than low oil prices.

Except the petroleum industry owns the other options. So, good luck. Don't do it because you think you will hurt them. It's the only industry that throws money at a problem until the problem actually goes away [before the money runs out]. :whistle:

[tommymac]

Except the petroleum industry owns the other options. So, good luck. Don't do it because you think you will hurt them. It's the only industry that throws money at a problem until the problem actually goes away [before the money runs out]. :whistle:

they can just jack up prices so the money doesnt run out :lol:

Seems like kadahfy sp? is going to fight this so I got a feeling things will get a lot worse beofre they get better, and who knows if the new regime will be any better.

[shmike]

It's the only industry that throws money at a problem until the problem actually goes away [before the money runs out]. :whistle:

Really?

What about tobacco?

Pharmaceuticals?

Monsanto?

[goof2]

Except the petroleum industry owns the other options. So, good luck. Don't do it because you think you will hurt them. It's the only industry that throws money at a problem until the problem actually goes away [before the money runs out]. :whistle:

As I understand it they are involved in a portion of the other options but in no way do they "own" those other options. Just looking at electricity generation, yes the petroleum industry does natural gas too, but I don't believe they have much, if any, involvement in coal, nuclear or hydroelectric. While natural gas is continually gaining ground coal still accounts for almost half the electricity generated in this country. Either way it is better for the petroleum industry if we continue to use oil, an industry they (by definition) own 100%.

[Sixxxxer]

I'm still boggled at how people (at least anyone above the Mason dixon line on the east coast) can smoke...The cheapest pack of Ciggs in NJ that I've seen is damn near 6 dollars. And people literally pay me in Pennies and dimes at times just to get that pack of smokes.

Lord knows how High gas prices, Increasing costs of Food and Cost of living is going to "Help" our already struggling economy.

[Papa_Complex]

Lord knows how High gas prices, Increasing costs of Food and Cost of living is going to "Help" our already struggling economy.

Why trickle-down economics, of course :lol:

[tommymac]

I'm still boggled at how people (at least anyone above the Mason dixon line on the east coast) can smoke...The cheapest pack of Ciggs in NJ that I've seen is damn near 6 dollars. And people literally pay me in Pennies and dimes at times just to get that pack of smokes.

Lord knows how High gas prices, Increasing costs of Food and Cost of living is going to "Help" our already struggling economy.

it def wont help, I can see gas theft becomming a problem this time around. I was on my way to vir durring hte last gas price spike and they were staying on top of people trying to drive off without paying.

[shmike]

it def wont help, I can see gas theft becomming a problem this time around. I was on my way to vir durring hte last gas price spike and they were staying on top of people trying to drive off without paying.


Except in some very rural areas, isn't every gas station pay before you pump? :scratch:

[tommymac]

Except in some very rural areas, isn't every gas station pay before you pump? :scratch:

in NY they are, and theres no self serve in joisey. But this was on our way down to VIR so we were in some east bumblefuck areas heading down there :lol:

[Sixxxxer]

Except in some very rural areas, isn't every gas station pay before you pump? :scratch:

Like tommy said, Not in NJ...And Oregon.

[shmike]

in NY they are, and theres no self serve in joisey. But this was on our way down to VIR so we were in some east bumblefuck areas heading down there :lol:


I hear ya. :lol:

We were at a race at Jennings a few years back when gas was ~$4 a gallon and diesel was ~$5.

Most gas stations that had pay at the pump were to $50 or $75. Not real helpful when it takes almost $150 to fill up.

Teammate Bill walks inside to hand the lady his CC and she looks at him funny. He tells her that he knows the pumps are limited and she can keep the card until we are full.

She laughs and says: "Honey, we're in Georgia, look at our parking lot. EVERYONE here is over $100 to fill up. We don't have any silly limits. Just pay me when you are done."

[tommymac]

I hear ya. :lol:

We were at a race at Jennings a few years back when gas was ~$4 a gallon and diesel was ~$5.

Most gas stations that had pay at the pump were to $50 or $75. Not real helpful when it takes almost $150 to fill up.

Teammate Bill walks inside to hand the lady his CC and she looks at him funny. He tells her that he knows the pumps are limited and she can keep the card until we are full.

She laughs and says: "Honey, we're in Georgia, look at our parking lot. EVERYONE here is over $100 to fill up. We don't have any silly limits. Just pay me when you are done."

Nice :lol:

The way these prices are shooting up I dont feel as bad having a limited track season if I even get out at all.

[pauldun170]

Weren't people warned....like every year for the past ten years that we'd all be paying over $5 a gallon?

10 years is a long time to be prepare for an extra couple bucks at the pump....for pansies that is.

[dReWpY]

This was taken in Bahrain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1

holy shit

[Sixxxxer]

You could tell me we're gonna pay 10 dollars a gallon in 6 months.

I still wont fucking listen.

We as citizens have basically settled for these prices (frankly bc there isnt shit we can do) short of a massive decrease in demand for gas (which would basically require everyone to stop driving all together for well over a few years span) theres not shit we can do.

Boycotting wont do anything, Eventually your going to need gas no matter what. Sure we can start to carpool use Mass transit and drive less but these little things arent going to affect the gas companies unless EVERYONE does it.

Hell on my days off from work...I usually dont drive anywhere...and If i do I wait for my girl to come home and we take her Elantra instead of me driving my Ram.

[tommymac]

You could tell me we're gonna pay 10 dollars a gallon in 6 months.

I still wont fucking listen.

We as citizens have basically settled for these prices (frankly bc there isnt shit we can do) short of a massive decrease in demand for gas (which would basically require everyone to stop driving all together for well over a few years span) theres not shit we can do.

Boycotting wont do anything, Eventually your going to need gas no matter what. Sure we can start to carpool use Mass transit and drive less but these little things arent going to affect the gas companies unless EVERYONE does it.

Hell on my days off from work...I usually dont drive anywhere...and If i do I wait for my girl to come home and we take her Elantra instead of me driving my Ram.

If this stuff continues along with the expected increases anyway I think we will see more drastic measures. Everyone bitches about it but thats usualy as far as it goes. Given the current economy I think it will force more people to make some hard decisions on stuff.

[Sixxxxer]

Its ashame really...Because I enjoy Driving. I used to just drive around burn a tank of gas and go home...with no real destination.

Not so much anymore.

[tommymac]

Its ashame really...Because I enjoy Driving. I used to just drive around burn a tank of gas and go home...with no real destination.

Not so much anymore.

Sucks too becasue sometimes we put the baby in the car and drive around to get him to settle down.

Witht he warmer weather I can let him cry, go outside and drink a beer and let the cats deal with him :lol:

[pauldun170]

I've said every year that I don't care until it hits $5 a gallon. Once it hits $5.01 I'm whipping out my "I remember paying bout a buck a gallon to fill my first car up" card.

May even shake a stick at random passerby

[goof2]

Weren't people warned....like every year for the past ten years that we'd all be paying over $5 a gallon?

10 years is a long time to be prepare for an extra couple bucks at the pump....for pansies that is.

This is why I don't understand the whole "Its the oil companies/speculators/whoevers manipulating the market" thing. Expensive gas shouldn't be coming as a surprise. Demand is far outpacing supply. The only reason oil dropped back down from its 2008 highs was because the global economy got wasted and the demand for oil declined. There hasn't been any significant increase in supply since then and now that demand has rebounded we are right back where we were. Blaming the "speculators" is fine and all but it fails to recognize that they are most likely speculating accurately.

[Papa_Complex]

This is why I don't understand the whole "Its the oil companies/speculators/whoevers manipulating the market" thing. Expensive gas shouldn't be coming as a surprise. Demand is far outpacing supply. The only reason oil dropped back down from its 2008 highs was because the global economy got wasted and the demand for oil declined. There hasn't been any significant increase in supply since then and now that demand has rebounded we are right back where we were. Blaming the "speculators" is fine and all but it fails to recognize that they are most likely speculating accurately.

Perhaps because they aren't building refineries, to meet the demand? It's an artificial restriction.

[goof2]

Perhaps because they aren't building refineries, to meet the demand? It's an artificial restriction.

They claim it isn't by choice but due to over-regulation making building new refineries untenable. Its possible that is wrong but I tend to believe it. Add in that fluctuations in gas prices have pretty well mirrored the same in oil prices and I also tend to believe it is currently a raw material (oil) cost issue rather than production (refining) capacity issue anyway.

[Papa_Complex]

They claim it isn't by choice but due to over-regulation making building new refineries untenable. Its possible that is wrong but I tend to believe it. Add in that fluctuations in gas prices have pretty well mirrored the same in oil prices and I also tend to believe it is currently a raw material (oil) cost issue rather than production (refining) capacity issue anyway.

In other words they don't want to build if they have to meet today's environmental regulations, when their old refineries were very likely grandfathered?

I don't know about down there, but up here the 'fluctuations' haven't exactly followed the per-barrel price of oil. They've gone up in pace with the rises. They haven't fallen as much as they should have. As a result over the last several years gas has gone from the high $0.7X per Litre range, to a current price in excess of $1.15 per Litre.

[pauldun170]

This was taken in Bahrain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1

Meh...saw a similar video from gaza and thats all just fake.
Do yous see anyone get shot?
No
All you really see is the guy in the white shirt do the happy dance.

This is obviously staged to put the government in a bad light....

ok I cant even keep a straight face pulling that one outta my ass.


but seriously man in white shirt has serious happy dance....specially at 32 sec mark

[tallywacker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ80pmigNYU

[pauldun170]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ80pmigNYU

:lol:

bombs by casio!!!
Helicopters by south park!!

Can anyone name the fonts they used?

[goof2]

In other words they don't want to build if they have to meet today's environmental regulations, when their old refineries were very likely grandfathered?

I don't know about down there, but up here the 'fluctuations' haven't exactly followed the per-barrel price of oil. They've gone up in pace with the rises. They haven't fallen as much as they should have. As a result over the last several years gas has gone from the high $0.7X per Litre range, to a current price in excess of $1.15 per Litre.

In other words they can't build them profitably, or even get any kind of assurance that they will be able to build them at all, under today's environmental regulations. The reasons there aren't any new nuclear power plants under construction are the same given for why there are no new refineries under construction.

Concerning fluctuations take a look at the chart. It is from a website called gasbuddy.com that purports to be for consumers. I can't speak to the veracity of their chart but the oil prices seem to track pretty accurately. If the consumer gas prices listed are accurate then the chart pretty well tracks with what I'm saying about prices.

[Papa_Complex]

Correction: Overnight, gas prices in Toronto went to $1.21/L. That's $4.59/US Gal. With our dollar essentially at parity with yours, someone would have a very difficult time explaining to me why we pay so much more than you do, especially given that you get a hell of a lot of our oil. Now add in that it takes roughly 3 months before the price at the wellhead effects the price at the pumps...

They're paying $4.78/US Gal in Montreal, right now.

[dReWpY]

We jumped 10 cents over night

[Papa_Complex]

We jumped more like $0.20 overnight.

[EpyonXero]

Correction: Overnight, gas prices in Toronto went to $1.21/L. That's $4.59/US Gal. With our dollar essentially at parity with yours, someone would have a very difficult time explaining to me why we pay so much more than you do, especially given that you get a hell of a lot of our oil. Now add in that it takes roughly 3 months before the price at the wellhead effects the price at the pumps...

They're paying $4.78/US Gal in Montreal, right now.

Taxes?

[Papa_Complex]

Taxes?

Yes, we pay more tax on gasoline than you do, but the majority of the taxes are fixed by unit volume. A 10% increase in prices, over the course of a few days, CANNOT be written off to taxes.

[askmrjesus]

:lol:

Can anyone name the fonts they used?

Arial Bombardment.

(Bold).

JC

[pauldun170]

Arial Bombardment.

(Bold).

JC

:lol

[shmike]

Yes, we pay more tax on gasoline than you do, but the majority of the taxes are fixed by unit volume. A 10% increase in prices, over the course of a few days, CANNOT be written off to taxes.

You realize that oil is up 15% since a week ago, right?

[Papa_Complex]

You realize that oil is up 15% since a week ago, right?

You realize that oil doesn't hit the market for 3 months, right?

[shmike]

You realize that oil doesn't hit the market for 3 months, right?

And?

It still affects the price of the end product immediately.

There is no 90 day lag on goof's chart. I can't recall a time when there was.

[Papa_Complex]

Well there's certainly lag on price drops, if they ever come, when the per-barrel price drops.

[Triple]

From what I gather...Alaska is just sitting there waiting to be raped and pillaged...And ALSO if we drilled within the USA it would tumble prices to damn near 1$ a Gallon again.

I'm sorry but Fuck the wildlife.

Easy to say writing from a place like Jersey that's already been raped and pillaged. Let's put an entire ecosystem in jeopardy so you don't have to trade in your Dodge Ram...

The environment is more important than oil supply, period. The focus should be on alternate sources of energy; otherwise we'll just keep digging until the oil actually runs out, we'll have damaged huge sections of wilderness in the process, and we'll end up in the very same predicament we're facing now: oil demand outpacing available supply and scrambling to find an alternate energy source. Ruining the land doesn't just affect the migration of some herd of caribou; it changes the weather, it alters local economies, it pollutes the air/water/soil, etc.

You're lost in Candy Land if you think more drilling in the states would reduce gas prices to a dollar a gallon.

[shmike]

Well there's certainly lag on price drops, if they ever come, when the per-barrel price drops.

Maybe an extra day or so.

Papa,

I understand your frustration and I know it feels like "they" use any excuse to raise prices but the inverse doesn't seem to happen.

The numbers tell us otherwise. Look at goof's chart.

In my own experience, we were paying over $4/gal back in '08 and it was down into the low $2's last year. The increases/decreases may not be on a 1:1 ratio but the timing stays pretty true. :idk:

[goof2]

Maybe an extra day or so.

Papa,

I understand your frustration and I know it feels like "they" use any excuse to raise prices but the inverse doesn't seem to happen.

The numbers tell us otherwise. Look at goof's chart.

In my own experience, we were paying over $4/gal back in '08 and it was down into the low $2's last year. The increases/decreases may not be on a 1:1 ratio but the timing stays pretty true. :idk:

I don't totally trust that chart as I'm not familiar with the source. The U.S. Dept. of Energy though tracks average national gas prices weekly. According to them the average price for the U.S. was at $4.11 per gallon in the middle of July 2008. By the end of December 2008 it was back down to $1.61 per gallon. It went back up to the $2.50 range by the middle of 2009 and stayed there until this stuff started. Comparing that data to the chart shows they match up pretty well.

[shmike]

I don't totally trust that chart as I'm not familiar with the source. The U.S. Dept. of Energy though tracks average national gas prices weekly. According to them the average price for the U.S. was at $4.11 per gallon in the middle of July 2008. By the end of December 2008 it was back down to $1.61 per gallon. It went back up to the $2.50 range by the middle of 2009 and stayed there until this stuff started. Comparing that data to the chart shows they match up pretty well.

Yep.

I'm not touting your chart as the gospel of oil & gas prices but it matches the price fluctuations we have seen here pretty much exactly.

The reality is:
Crude prices up = pump prices up
Crude prices down = pump prices down

[Papa_Complex]

Maybe an extra day or so.

Papa,

I understand your frustration and I know it feels like "they" use any excuse to raise prices but the inverse doesn't seem to happen.

The numbers tell us otherwise. Look at goof's chart.

In my own experience, we were paying over $4/gal back in '08 and it was down into the low $2's last year. The increases/decreases may not be on a 1:1 ratio but the timing stays pretty true. :idk:

In the Toronto area we're talking WEEKS, if ever, that the price rebounds down and when it does, it never goes back to the level that the crude price would justify.

[Sixxxxer]

Easy to say writing from a place like Jersey that's already been raped and pillaged. Let's put an entire ecosystem in jeopardy so you don't have to trade in your Dodge Ram...

The environment is more important than oil supply, period. The focus should be on alternate sources of energy; otherwise we'll just keep digging until the oil actually runs out, we'll have damaged huge sections of wilderness in the process, and we'll end up in the very same predicament we're facing now: oil demand outpacing available supply and scrambling to find an alternate energy source. Ruining the land doesn't just affect the migration of some herd of caribou; it changes the weather, it alters local economies, it pollutes the air/water/soil, etc.

You're lost in Candy Land if you think more drilling in the states would reduce gas prices to a dollar a gallon.

Drilling where we currently ARE Allowed to seems to be working out great. Def not jeopardiizing our current ecosystems at all :skep:

I'm not in "candy land" I realize the implications behind it. Its my opinion. I've made it apparent Im an advocate of alternate energys...but the desire/need for gas will at least in my lifetime NEVER go away.

We were supposed to be in flying cars by now...You see how well that worked out.

[goof2]

Easy to say writing from a place like Jersey that's already been raped and pillaged. Let's put an entire ecosystem in jeopardy so you don't have to trade in your Dodge Ram...

The environment is more important than oil supply, period. The focus should be on alternate sources of energy; otherwise we'll just keep digging until the oil actually runs out, we'll have damaged huge sections of wilderness in the process, and we'll end up in the very same predicament we're facing now: oil demand outpacing available supply and scrambling to find an alternate energy source. Ruining the land doesn't just affect the migration of some herd of caribou; it changes the weather, it alters local economies, it pollutes the air/water/soil, etc.

You're lost in Candy Land if you think more drilling in the states would reduce gas prices to a dollar a gallon.

Why can't we do both? I'm all for research in to alternative sources of energy, but it isn't like with people off working on that there isn't anyone left to rape and pillage the ANWR. While we are at it we should have another group throwing up nuclear power plants too. Either way you are right there in Candy Land too if you think we aren't going to need tens of millions of barrels of oil every day anytime soon.

[Avatard]

I'm conflicted.

On the one hand, it's not cool to shoot unarmed people, just because they think you're an asshole.

On the other hand, this is the same country that threw a party for the Lockerbie Bomber after his release from a Scottish prison, so...

Fuck 'em.

JC

Oh, so completely and totally this.