shits gonna hit the fan now

[wildchild]

Wis senate called an emergency vote tonight. the budet repair bill is apparently passsed. public employees will no longer have bargaining rights. i have to say i agree with this, as they are public employees.

democrats had no vote as they are still on vacation in Ill

[tommymac]

Guess that little trick didnt work out for them. its like how unions wont budge on anything then they force the govts hand and guys get laid off. happened to a few NJ police depts and the teachers in ny will soon be getting laid off.

[goof2]

They couldn't vote on the entire budget repair bill since anything involving fiscal matters requires more members than they had with most of the Democrats gone. The only thing they passed were the restrictions on public sector collective bargaining. Since that had no financial aspect it didn't require as many members. Whenever the Democrats do return the Republicans would be smart to immediately pass the entire budget repair bill, including the collective bargaining provisions, to remove potential challenges to the way it was passed.

[EpyonXero]

About time those fat cat teachers got taken down a notch.

[wildchild]

They couldn't vote on the entire budget repair bill since anything involving fiscal matters requires more members than they had with most of the Democrats gone. The only thing they passed were the restrictions on public sector collective bargaining. Since that had no financial aspect it didn't require as many members. Whenever the Democrats do return the Republicans would be smart to immediately pass the entire budget repair bill, including the collective bargaining provisions, to remove potential challenges to the way it was passed.

thanks for the clarification. i just seen a blurb about it on the news. guess the dems got what they wanted then. they wanted bargaining removed because it wasn't fiscal. course they wanted to vote on that later, it must have given the repubs an idea to vote on that as non fiscal.

Madtown will live up to it's name for a while I'm sure.

[Particle Man]

About time those fat cat teachers got taken down a notch.

Sarcasm I hope...

[wildchild]

now they're trashing our capitol building. i think everyone of them on video should be charged with destruction of Gov't property.

instead of running more ads about how they don't like what the bill has to offer, they should offer to pay for the damage the protest has caused. Guess they think it's fair that taxpayers throughout the state should have to pay for the damage from their personal temper tantrums.

[azoomm]

now they're trashing our capitol building. i think everyone of them on video should be charged with destruction of Gov't property.

instead of running more ads about how they don't like what the bill has to offer, they should offer to pay for the damage the protest has caused. Guess they think it's fair that taxpayers throughout the state should have to pay for the damage from their personal temper tantrums.
:(

[fatbuckRTO]

About time those fat cat teachers got taken down a notch.
Teachers' unions have about as much concern for teachers as a sea sponge does. About as much concern as school and school board administrators, teachers' bosses, who take salaries that are 4 to 10 times as much as the teachers actually doing the work.

If the unions were really working for the union members, and really truly wanted, why would they need mandatory dues? Why would they fear having to vote on their existence every year? If they're really that important, needed, and wanted, it should be an easy vote.

Maybe, though, they realize that if the unions were held accountable for their merit, they'd wither into nothingness because teachers like my mom feel their "union dues" are money best spent elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, watching the morons on Fox calling teachers "overpaid" and "part-time workers" makes me want to punch some throats, but the union bosses aren't making life any better for teachers. Not from what I've seen.

['73 H1 Triple]

.....

Don't get me wrong, watching the morons on Fox calling teachers "overpaid" and "part-time workers" makes me want to punch some throats, but the union bosses aren't making life any better for teachers. Not from what I've seen.

It's time for the overly compensated teachers ( and especially the admins ) to get a dose of reality. WTF should they have a "golden parachute" of a retirement plan and pay next to nothing for for benefits when in the real world it doesn't work that way?

Don't give that bullshit of taking work home, they knew the "rules" when they picked that career.

[Papa_Complex]

I'm constantly amazed at people who seem to give proxy rights to someone else, to effectively raise their children, then get upset that the pittance these people get is somehow far too much. Many of these people get two degrees, in order to be able to secure such a job then make dirt compared to what they could, had they spent that time getting different degree(s).

And can the "they knew" talk. The rules of the game can change, after the fact, and wanting to do something meaningful with their lives, rather than just making money, shouldn't count against them.

People who are damaging property during their rallies, however, should be prosecuted for what they have done. It always chaps my ass that people who destroy property, during such incidents, frequently have it tossed as part of a final agreement.

[Trip]

There are always options, they can take a job in private schools that pay well, just like I have the option to remove any child I may have from going to those shit holes known as public school.

[Papa_Complex]

There are always options, they can take a job in private schools that pay well, just like I have the option to remove any child I may have from going to those shit holes known as public school.

Sure, they could, and then the 90% of the country, who can't afford private school, would be fucked. They serve a necessary purpose. They get paid shit. Grinding them down, even further than they already are, is a fucking stupid move when they frequently have more input into a child's life than his parents do.

[Trip]

Sure, they could, and then the 90% of the country, who can't afford private school, would be fucked. They serve a necessary purpose. They get paid shit. Grinding them down, even further than they already are, is a fucking stupid move when they frequently have more input into a child's life than his parents do.

That's why it's great to have freedom. If you hate the job or what it pays, move on. Why do you always care so much about what we do in our country? I don't give a fuck if ya'll decide to become nudist nazis in Canada, it's ya'll country.

[Papa_Complex]

That's why it's great to have freedom. If you hate the job or what it pays, move on. Why do you always care so much about what we do in our country? I don't give a fuck if ya'll decide to become nudist nazis in Canada, it's ya'll country.

Why do you bother to ask why someone cares about something, on the intarwebs?

[wildchild]

maybe Canadian teachers don't have it quite as well as American teachers. I work in the design field, I regularly take work home and have to work weekends, Tommy is in medical, he's always working, how many people here are in business or law? they work at night, at home and on weekends as well.
My girlfriend has a residential cleaning business and some of her best clients are teachers.
even if I sold all my toys I couldn't afford the houses these folks have. they do a very good job of going to school to teach in their compact sensible car and talk about how meager their wage is and how frugal they live their life.
go visit then some time. no joke at all, one of the teachers I know has a factory 5 cobra, a Harley, a beautiful house, and a toyota camry. guess what he drives to work?
Are they all filthy rich? of course not. are they dirt poor? absolutely not. they have state funded education, unbelieveable medical, dental and retirement benefits, a good salary and yes they get summers off during which they can travel, vacation or even work another job to make more bank. is that terrible that they work during the summer? no they do it by choice to make more money.
they do their job which they have chosen to do, they make a good salary. mostly what getting rid of thier union would do is make it possible to remove the teachers who have long ago lost their effectiveness.
we had one that finally after years of complaints was removed from the classroom and allowed to finish her tenure by monitoring the teacher's lounge. their union is very strong and there was no way to get rid of her entirely. is it right for tax payers to have to pay someone who is completely inept at their job simply because they have been there for years?

[Papa_Complex]

Actually Canadian teachers tend to have it quite a bit better than do American teachers.

[tommymac]

There are always options, they can take a job in private schools that pay well, just like I have the option to remove any child I may have from going to those shit holes known as public school.

Its not always that easy, sure most teachers would like a gig like that but they have to be able to get that job first.

On LI teachers have it prety good for the most part, they make tenure, they get paid rather well and most work in prety good school districts. On the flip side NYC teachers get paid a lot less, have to make duye with less and a lot work in prety crummy school districts. SO of course most of them want out and would kill for a gig out here in the burbs.

[wildchild]

i have a friend who quit here to go teach at the local tech school. life has never been better for him. he enjoys the job, the bennies, and the pay.

[Trip]

Why do you bother to ask why someone cares about something, on the intarwebs?

Just curious.

American teachers have lost any sympathy they had long ago. The public school system we have is just going in the shitter further an further and we can't really make changes thanks to their unions. Tenure is the biggest joke out there. Who else gets nice fat agreements to never get shitcanned when they are doing horrible jobs?

[wildchild]

Its not always that easy, sure most teachers would like a gig like that but they have to be able to get that job first.

On LI teachers have it prety good for the most part, they make tenure, they get paid rather well and most work in prety good school districts. On the flip side NYC teachers get paid a lot less, have to make duye with less and a lot work in prety crummy school districts. SO of course most of them want out and would kill for a gig out here in the burbs.


ok but (it may be different there) here what we do to get teachers in the inner city is we give them a free education, in return for 2 years of teaching in the city. then they are free to go where ever. the hope is and it works now and then, that they will like the job or truly want to help so they will stay for a while.
we have some good teachers in the city but they tend to get run out by unruly students and worse parents.
yes many of our teachers end up in the suburb schools and what they have done to equalize the education for everyone is allow school choice so inner city kids can be bussed out to suburbs if their parents choose.

[tommymac]

Just curious.

American teachers have lost any sympathy they had long ago. The public school system we have is just going in the shitter further an further and we can't really make changes thanks to their unions. Tenure is the biggest joke out there. Who else gets nice fat agreements to never get shitcanned when they are doing horrible jobs?

I know theyre pushing to do away with it here, or at least in nyc. Withthe current budget mess a lot of teachers will get the ax and its based on tenure/senority. Been hearing a lot of radio commercials looking ot make the layoffs merit based vs tenure.

Kinda how it should be but the unions wil never go for it. The funny/sad thing about it is I am actualy part of the teachers union for some reason. I guess the state employees at the hospital got lumped in with them.

[tommymac]

ok but (it may be different there) here what we do to get teachers in the inner city is we give them a free education, in return for 2 years of teaching in the city. then they are free to go where ever. the hope is and it works now and then, that they will like the job or truly want to help so they will stay for a while.
we have some good teachers in the city but they tend to get run out by unruly students and worse parents.
yes many of our teachers end up in the suburb schools and what they have done to equalize the education for everyone is allow school choice so inner city kids can be bussed out to suburbs if their parents choose.

I dont know about teachers but tha tpractice is done in the medical field. we pay your tuition and you give us 2-5 yrs in an underserved area.

I bet its the same here, teachers just get burnt out after a while and look to go elsewhere.

[Papa_Complex]

Just curious.

American teachers have lost any sympathy they had long ago. The public school system we have is just going in the shitter further an further and we can't really make changes thanks to their unions. Tenure is the biggest joke out there. Who else gets nice fat agreements to never get shitcanned when they are doing horrible jobs?

Tenure is a pretty sticky issue, for sure. Once you got it, even murder might not get you fired. How many actually get tenure though? Tenure isn't something a junior or high school teacher gets here.

It's a vicious circle. Teachers get ridden for the decline of the educational system, which demotivates them to make any improvements. They're rated on ridiculous testing standards, that are supposed to rate how well they teach the students, so they only teach the students how to write the tests.

[OneSickPsycho]

I don't pretend to know much about teachers wages, benefits, and whatnot across the US, but I do know this... Of ALL of the teachers I know... and I know several... If you factor in the fact that they work 3/4 of a year instead of a full year, they make just as much money - or more - than the middle class mean. Looking at the wages, people somehow always seem to forget that they do not work a full year... $30k/yr for 9 mos out of the year = $40k compared to the rest of us. That's a siginificant difference.

[Papa_Complex]

I don't pretend to know much about teachers wages, benefits, and whatnot across the US, but I do know this... Of ALL of the teachers I know... and I know several... If you factor in the fact that they work 3/4 of a year instead of a full year, they make just as much money - or more - than the middle class mean. Looking at the wages, people somehow always seem to forget that they do not work a full year... $30k/yr for 9 mos out of the year = $40k compared to the rest of us. That's a siginificant difference.

Leave that factor out because a teacher who doesn't do some work during that time off, including taking courses to improve personal standing, will be working double-time during the year.

If you don't make that money, then you don't make that money. It's not like you miraculously don't have to pay your mortgage/rent or buy food, for three months of the year.

[Particle Man]

Just curious.

American teachers have lost any sympathy they had long ago. The public school system we have is just going in the shitter further an further and we can't really make changes thanks to their unions. Tenure is the biggest joke out there. Who else gets nice fat agreements to never get shitcanned when they are doing horrible jobs?

Problem is, it's swinging in the opposite direction now: they're basing everything on test scores. So tenure is going away and everything depends on whether or not kids score high on standardized tests (at least here).

That means one of two things are going to happen:

1) teachers are only going to teach to tests and the kids won't learn jack shit except rote memorization

2) numbers will get fudged, especially on English exams or more subjective tests

You can't take a numbers based outcome approach to education, especially when you factor in each students' aptitude and ability. It just won't work.

This is why I left the teaching profession to begin with: I don't agree with basing everything on standardized testing.

[Trip]

Tenure is a pretty sticky issue, for sure. Once you got it, even murder might not get you fired. How many actually get tenure though? Tenure isn't something a junior or high school teacher gets here.

Tenure is a lot more common here. Elementary school teachers get it. My mother in law teaches 5th grade and has it.

[nhgunnut]

Sure, they could, and then the 90% of the country, who can't afford private school, would be fucked. They serve a necessary purpose. They get paid shit. Grinding them down, even further than they already are, is a fucking stupid move when they frequently have more input into a child's life than his parents do.

The issue is not the Teachers it is however the Unions and their Entitlements. BTW "Collective Bargaining" is an entitlement not a right.
The changes in Wisconsin place the Public Employees in precisely the same bargaining position as our Federal Employees. Unions there have lost the ability to demand that you join them, or collect dues from non members. They also now have to deal with each Community Individually and live within the means of those Communities.
For the Record I admire Teachers, I tech ins a corrections environment, I Don't believe society Values Teachers enough .
Unions here in the states however have grown from once being the protector of workers into power hungry organizations who routinely seek power and money at the expense of those they are supposed to represent. AFLCIO Chairmen makes declares a Salary (before bonuses and merit review) of $480k yearly.
If the US is to ever to get to a stable economy it needs to control the unions.
Oh and by the way if a teacher has more input in your child's life than you do , You are a Piss Poor Parent! and I or someone like me will in all likelihood will be getting to teach your kids at some point.

[Trip]

Problem is, it's swinging in the opposite direction now: they're basing everything on test scores. So tenure is going away and everything depends on whether or not kids score high on standardized tests (at least here).

That means one of two things are going to happen:

1) teachers are only going to teach to tests and the kids won't learn jack shit except rote memorization

2) numbers will get fudged, especially on English exams or more subjective tests

You can't take a numbers based outcome approach to education, especially when you factor in each students' aptitude and ability. It just won't work.

This is why I left the teaching profession to begin with: I don't agree with basing everything on standardized testing.

The standardized test method is horseshit too.

[Particle Man]

The standardized test method is horseshit too.

So what do you propose as a middle ground?

[Trip]

What the rest of us go through. Draw up a list of performance indicators based on all of the different areas that your job entails. A percentage will be tests of course, but it will be just that a percentage like it should be. Review the performance based on those areas. If you are a continuous underperformer, your ass gets the can.

[fatbuckRTO]

It's time for the overly compensated teachers ( and especially the admins ) to get a dose of reality. WTF should they have a "golden parachute" of a retirement plan and pay next to nothing for for benefits when in the real world it doesn't work that way?

Don't give that bullshit of taking work home, they knew the "rules" when they picked that career.
Well, for starters, when they picked that career part of the "rules" were they got a certain retirement package if they could put up with America's snot nosed punks for 20 years.

But, more to the point, what is this Kool-Aid that everyone seems to be drinking regarding teachers' compensation? My mother, who is generally up until midnight or later every week night grading papers or doing some other school related work, gets paid roughly $30,000 a year. She has been a teacher for 30 years. She works at school 9 hours or more a day, at least once a week sacrificing a lunch hour (actually, 25 minutes) to watch the affore mentioned snot nosed punks and make sure they're not hitting each other over the head with lead pipes, or some other such nonsense (thankfully, gun violence due to poor parenting has not made it to her school yet). Some weeks she gets to sacrifice an hour of sleep everyday to get there early and make sure your little darlings aren't jumping in front of busses before school.

Summers off? My ass. She has less than a month during the summer when she's not doing some sort of work for school. Factor in the unpaid overtime throughout the school year and I guarantee you it's a fucking wash with the hours you work. Besides which, summer "vacations" themselves are less than 2 1/2 months, after which time parents are generally jumping through their asses to get their "little angels" the fuck out of their hair and back to school so the teachers can deal with them.

Overly compensated? UAW workers get paid $30 an hour or more for job placement training. In other words, if their company wants to fire them or lay them off, they have to pay them to look for work, while they go through a job placement course that in the military we called TAMPS (and lasted a week or less). You want union fat cats, look at Detroit. You want overpaid government workers, look at TSA. I fucking guarantee you that you got more for your money from teachers like my mom over the years than you did from either of those two classes of extortionists.

[Particle Man]

What the rest of us go through. Draw up a list of performance indicators based on all of the different areas that your job entails. A percentage will be tests of course, but it will be just that a percentage like it should be. Review the performance based on those areas. If you are a continuous underperformer, your ass gets the can.

Agreed - now you've gotta convince the current regime of bean-counters that it isn't all based on standardized testing that can fit in neat excel spreadsheets and access databases - in other words, they need to have people actually PERFORMANCE MANAGE just like in the corporate world. .

[wildchild]

because a teacher who doesn't do some work during that time off, including taking courses to improve personal standing, will be working double-time during the year.




yep same as any other field. take courses to stay relevant and up to date or go away. the difference is we don't get 3 months of the year off to take courses we have to do it while working/parenting/being a spouse etc.

I agree with nhgunnut, it's not about are teachers good or evil. most people admire teachers for their job. the union makes them appear evil.

our senators have recieved death threats to themselves and their families.
would anyone here threaten a Gov't official for your job? probably not. think about it, how good do you have to have it before losing that benefit is worth threatening to kill someone?

this morning college students have filled locks on college buildings with superglue. lovely people involved in this protest. so respectful of property and others rights. guess they think they are the only ones in the state who matter.

[wildchild]

You want union fat cats, look at Detroit. You want overpaid government workers, look at TSA.

Exactly!! look at them and where are they? every hates TSA for their bullshit that they do to justify their job and Detroit? where is that? what did their union get them? the worst city in the nation now isn't it? businesses are closed, houses are foreclosed yep good examples. let's follow their lead.

[Trip]

We don't need to get rid of the TSA union, we need to get rid of the TSA.

[Papa_Complex]

yep same as any other field. take courses to stay relevant and up to date or go away. the difference is we don't get 3 months of the year off to take courses we have to do it while working/parenting/being a spouse etc.

Though most other types of workers don't need the amount of external prep time, that a teacher does either. You can't really compare a car salesman or a receptionist to a teacher, for example.

[fatbuckRTO]

yep good examples. let's follow their lead.
I'm sorry, did I give you the impression that I was citing them as examples to follow? My point is that there's a butt ton of fat to trim in this country before we should start worrying about "overpaid" teachers. And I mean public school, K-12 teachers here.

[Trip]

I'm sorry, did I give you the impression that I was citing them as examples to follow? My point is that there's a butt ton of fat to trim in this country before we should start worrying about "overpaid" teachers. And I mean public school, K-12 teachers here.

Pay is not really a concern for me. I want to get rid of their tenure and how they are performance reviewed with a little helping of ability to fire poor performers.

[Papa_Complex]

What the rest of us go through. Draw up a list of performance indicators based on all of the different areas that your job entails. A percentage will be tests of course, but it will be just that a percentage like it should be. Review the performance based on those areas. If you are a continuous underperformer, your ass gets the can.

It's rather difficult though, when the performance of someone else is what you'll be rated by.

Unfortunately it seems that our public education system is in a similar decline to yours. Back when I graduated high school, something like 6% of students made the honour role.

I recently heard a statistic that honours graduates were now up in the mid 50 percentile (can't remember the exact number). Trust me, when I say, that students definitely aren't 10x smarter than when I graduated. In fact I'm frequently dismayed at the complete lack of basic math and language skills, that I run into on a daily basis.

[Trip]

It's rather difficult though, when the performance of someone else is what you'll be rated by.

Gee, I wonder what that would be like. Oh yeah, I know, kinda like how my performance is majority based on the maintenance crew that performs all the servicing work on my breakers.

Lots of people get reviewed based on the performance of others. Pretty much all management is done this way. Why should teachers get a free pass?

[Papa_Complex]

Gee, I wonder what that would be like. Oh yeah, I know, kinda like how my performance is majority based on the maintenance crew that performs all the servicing work on my breakers.

Lots of people get reviewed based on the performance of others. Pretty much all management is done this way. Why should teachers get a free pass?

Those guys could be fired, if they didn't do a sufficiently good job. Right? I don't think that the same can be said of a student.

[Trip]

Those guys could be fired, if they didn't do a sufficiently good job. Right? I don't think that the same can be said of a student.

Kids can get failed or sent to a remedial class.

I am not a fan of no child left behind. Some kids deserve to be left behind.

[Particle Man]

Kids can get failed or sent to a remedial class.

I am not a fan of no child left behind. Some kids deserve to be left behind.

"But not MY kid!"

That goes back to pussification of society.

Heaven forbit Little Johnny actually fail and have to try again - can't have that, his FEELINGS might get hurt.

[Trip]

Oh, the crew has about as much of a chance of getting fired as teachers, hell probably even less of a chance. They are IBEW electricians. IBEW will fuck you up if you get in their way.

[Papa_Complex]

Kids can get failed or sent to a remedial class.

I am not a fan of no child left behind. Some kids deserve to be left behind.

Right; so a kid who under-performs, who can effect the status of a teacher's employment, gets held back to do it all over again.

Yes, some children should be left behind. They could be doing the manual labour, that is being done by illegal labour. For some bizarre reason our societies seem to believe that even little Johnny, of the 95 IQ, should "have all the opportunities" of Adam, the kid who won multiple scholarships and has a 145 IQ. And if Johnny really is smart, but a lazy ass, then the same thing applies. Not everyone needs, or can manage, a higher education.

[Trip]

If you draw up the performance indicators correctly, the bad eggs won't doom teachers and get them fired. Your job performance will be based on more than just performance of the students. It will be based on material presented, review of what work you made the students do, the lessons you are teaching them, continuing training you have taken to improve your performance, and so forth. A real review of the job performance. The type of typical job review most workers get in professional fields.

Hell it will also give the lazy ass administrators something to do as well.

[fatbuckRTO]

Kids can get failed or sent to a remedial class.
Not when your performance review is serverely adversely affected by the number of students who fail or get sent to a remedial class from your class. Or get bad grades.

If you got a bad review for giving your subordinates bad reviews, would you be so quick to be honest with your review system? Not every teacher has tenure. My mom doesn't, even after 30 years. I'd venture to say the vast majority of public school teachers don't, and will never.

I agree with you, an overhaul of teacher reviews is badly in order. But, for the current state of affairs in which 10th graders can't read or add, we have no one to blame but ourselves. As parents and voters. The actual teachers, for the most part, are just playing the shit hand we've dealt them.

[Papa_Complex]

Not when your performance review is serverely adversely affected by the number of students who fail or get sent to a remedial class from your class. Or get bad grades.

If you got a bad review for giving your subordinates bad reviews, would you be so quick to be honest with your review system? Not every teacher has tenure. My mom doesn't, even after 30 years. I'd venture to say the vast majority of public school teachers don't, and will never.

I agree with you, an overhaul of teacher reviews is badly in order. But, for the current state of affairs in which 10th graders can't read or add, we have no one to blame but ourselves. As parents and voters. The actual teachers, for the most part, are just playing the shit hand we've dealt them.

Good point, to which I'll add the question, "How many parents actually help their kids with their homework, these days?"

[Trip]

Then the teachers you are referring to, should actually be happy about what I am referring too. Their review gets better, they get to fail the asshats, and the shitty teachers that use to get tenure no longer get it.

[goof2]

I'm no fan of No Child Left Behind, but as I understand it there aren't a whole lot of other options. The feds want to improve schools, but the only real power they have is writing checks. They have little ability to dictate how schools should operate. The result is the feds have mandated a few tests, about the limit of their non-fiscal power, and made receiving federal funds conditional on schools meeting some basic standards. It is an attempt to hold schools accountable within the limited framework the federal government has to work in.

I'm all for changing how schools operate. They should have performance evaluations for personnel based on more than the results of a test. They should get rid of "tenure", actual and effective (even schools without it make it damn near impossible to fire under-performing teachers), and allow schools to hold teachers and administrators accountable for their performance. The problem is that has to be done at the state and local levels, something I just don't see happening.

America currently spends a ton of money on education. While we don't spend the most per student at the elementary and secondary level it is pretty close and we are top five. I don't think money is the issue, but at the federal level that is about all that can be controlled.

[EpyonXero]

It's time for the overly compensated teachers ( and especially the admins ) to get a dose of reality. WTF should they have a "golden parachute" of a retirement plan and pay next to nothing for for benefits when in the real world it doesn't work that way?

Don't give that bullshit of taking work home, they knew the "rules" when they picked that career.

I hate this argument. Just because the average worker has no job security or company help for their retirement other than putting a chunk of their paycheck in the stock market to help make the rich richer doesnt mean everyone who has benefits should lose theirs to make it fair.

[Particle Man]

If you draw up the performance indicators correctly, the bad eggs won't doom teachers and get them fired. Your

therein lies an even larger problem: right now, the folks drawing those indicators up are on a witch hunt (read: elected officials who are so busy KEEPING their jobs they aren't really DOING their jobs...)

[Trip]

therein lies an even larger problem: right now, the folks drawing those indicators up are on a witch hunt (read: elected officials who are so busy KEEPING their jobs they aren't really DOING their jobs...)

It's problem here too, they draw up indicators that are impossible from the start of it so we all get the basic CoL raise instead of a larger one. They also write enough wiggle room they can give their golden children bigger raises.

[wildchild]

Though most other types of workers don't need the amount of external prep time, that a teacher does either. You can't really compare a car salesman or a receptionist to a teacher, for example.


ok use a couple jobs that I didn't mention if you want to. you're right those two don't do much prep time, they don't make much money either.

the jobs I mentioned prior are all salary jobs that make a decent living and require extra input just like the teaching profession.

I'm sorry, did I give you the impression that I was citing them as examples to follow? My point is that there's a butt ton of fat to trim in this country before we should start worrying about "overpaid" teachers. And I mean public school, K-12 teachers here.

those are examples of what happens when unions run things and rather then give in a little will let people lose their jobs. let companies go out of business let homes be foreclosed on.

Pay is not really a concern for me. I want to get rid of their tenure and how they are performance reviewed with a little helping of ability to fire poor performers.



exactly!!

[fatbuckRTO]

those are examples of what happens when unions run things and rather then give in a little will let people lose their jobs. let companies go out of business let homes be foreclosed on.
I think you and Trip misunderstand me. Just because I don't think teachers are overpaid, and in fact believe they are underpaid in most cases, doesn't mean I want a teacher's union around fucking things up. I thought I was clear about that in my first post, but apparently not. It's like I said, my mom doesn't even belong to the local teachers' union because it's pretty much worthless; an organization that exists solely to keep existing (and likely making more money for the union leaders).

Like I said, the Wisconsin governor's proposed (and, I guess, passed) restrictions on the state worker unions don't seem unreasonable to me. If the workers really want their union around, how hard would it be to vote on its continued existence once a year? If they really want their union around, how hard would it be to raise funds without mandatory dues? If I'm understanding the situation correctly, I would have been pissed to be required to be a member of a union if I were a Wisconsin teacher.

My problem with a lot of the reporting in this case (read: a lot of the reporting from Fox News) is that they were very blatantly demonizing teachers, calling them "part-time" workers, and saying they were overpaid. I don't really know about Wisconsin, but in the states I've lived if you see a teacher driving a fancy car or living in a fancy house it's because her husband is a lawyer or doctor or some other highly paid profession. It sure as shit isn't from the teacher's 30K salary.

[wildchild]

yeah things are definitely dependant on what state you're in. my grandmother retired from teaching and my grandfather was a highway worker for the state. they lived very comfortably and retired to a very nice pension.

being here in wis I haven't seen anything yet demonizing the teaching profession. the only things we have seen here that could be considered derogatory is when people talk about teachers skipping work to protest.

even worse here I seen a group of teachers who were out to protest but didn't want the hassle so they went out to eat at a local restaurant instead.

we do have a lot of part time workers at the protest however. they are substitute teachers and what not. a lot of times I think people just want to protest something and get their face on tv. many of the people at the protests here have no reason to be ther. it won't affect them in any way yet they want to protest.

[Apoc]

Yep. Those evil unions, how dare they expect fair compensation for their work. Just horrible, horrible people.

30k for what they do is a fucking pittance. Its ridiculous. Nobody teaching in the school system should be making less than 45k year. Fuck, on 30k, I wouldnt be able to fucking live. You union haters are fucking ridiculous, but im guessing its mostly jealousy.

USW Local 7085. Union Proud.

[goof2]

Yep. Those evil unions, how dare they expect fair compensation for their work. Just horrible, horrible people.

30k for what they do is a fucking pittance. Its ridiculous. Nobody teaching in the school system should be making less than 45k year. Fuck, on 30k, I wouldnt be able to fucking live. You union haters are fucking ridiculous, but im guessing its mostly jealousy.

USW Local 7085. Union Proud.

Your post doesn't make sense. If these people are making "a fucking pittance", then what would "union haters" have to be jealous about? Additionally, why would these union members be fighting so hard over an organization that negotiated them that "fucking pittance" of a salary in the first place? Some other things to consider, this bill only covers public unions (people employed by the government) and even after this bill those unions still have the power to negotiate salaries. The members can still be "Union Proud" as their unions continue to negotiate them their "fucking pittance".

[tallywacker]

About time those fat cat teachers got taken down a notch.

LOL like teachers get paid enough for all the bullshit they deal with. Education should be the #1 priority of this nation.

[fatbuckRTO]

USW Local 7085. Union Proud.
Can I assume, then, that if your union were required to have a vote every year to stay in existence, you and your fellow union members would have no problem showing up to vote yea? And that you and your fellow union members would have no problem keeping your union funded through voluntary dues?

[pauldun170]

Here in the states you can demand rebates on dues for activities not related to collective bargaining.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=431&invol=209

[Papa_Complex]

Can I assume, then, that if your union were required to have a vote every year to stay in existence, you and your fellow union members would have no problem showing up to vote yea? And that you and your fellow union members would have no problem keeping your union funded through voluntary dues?

It would be fiscally irresponsible to have a scheduled vote for union continuance, every year. It forces the union to bear an unnecessary cost. Simply stating requirements for union decertification would be sufficient.

And that comes from a union member, who would prefer not to be one.

[fatbuckRTO]

It would be fiscally irresponsible to have a scheduled vote for union continuance, every year. It forces the union to bear an unnecessary cost. Simply stating requirements for union decertification would be sufficient.

And that comes from a union member, who would prefer not to be one.That argument makes sense, but it is not the argument generally being presented. The argument generally being presented, especially by the protestors, looks more to me like ZOMG YOU'RE ATTACKING UNIONS AND WORKERS AND DRIVING US TO SLAVE WAGES AND FORNICATING WITH OUR UNDERAGE DAUGHTERS YOU FASCIST PEDOPHILE!!!

Out of curiosity, do you think a three, five, or ten year period between votes for continuance would be feasible?

[pauldun170]

Even our "union free" districts have unions :lol:

Knowing plenty of teachers, including some principals I'd have to say I'm neutral on the teachers unions. Their compensation is reasonable for the area.

The big thing that seems to have fucked us (locally) over in terms of quality of education and cost of education are lawyers and No child Left Behind. Thats followed by idiots who think our schools have to be tachno whizbang state of the art. SO much money pissed right down the toilet because some old fucktard thinks we need state of the art this and state of the art that...

[goof2]

Even our "union free" districts have unions :lol:

Knowing plenty of teachers, including some principals I'd have to say I'm neutral on the teachers unions. Their compensation is reasonable for the area.

The big thing that seems to have fucked us (locally) over in terms of quality of education and cost of education are lawyers and No child Left Behind. Thats followed by idiots who think our schools have to be tachno whizbang state of the art. SO much money pissed right down the toilet because some old fucktard thinks we need state of the art this and state of the art that...

True. I dealt with a new high school that was being built a while back. The tech ed department in that district bought a computer for each desk in their two assigned classrooms, which cost around $100k. I was back about a month after the school opened and probably 10% of those computers were already broken. I heard the tech ed department eventually moved them to a magnet school where the students were actually interested in using them as computers rather than punching bags and fodder for "what happens if I shove my pencil in here" experiments.

[Papa_Complex]

That argument makes sense, but it is not the argument generally being presented. The argument generally being presented, especially by the protestors, looks more to me like ZOMG YOU'RE ATTACKING UNIONS AND WORKERS AND DRIVING US TO SLAVE WAGES AND FORNICATING WITH OUR UNDERAGE DAUGHTERS YOU FASCIST PEDOPHILE!!!

Out of curiosity, do you think a three, five, or ten year period between votes for continuance would be feasible?

I try to be reasonable, in my statements. It's one of the reasons why I'm not cut out for either government OR union work :lol:

If what I stated was done, then there would be no need for periodic votes, for the continuance of the union. An outside agency shouldn't be able to FORCE such a thing; it should be left to the members, in a given area/local.

[sherri_chickie]

I've taught in both the US and Canada. I definitely prefere to teach in Canada. No child left behind is a waste of money. I made 42k after 5 years teaching in Texas. I have two degrees. I spent half my summer at workshops taking training which was unpaid yet mandatory. I was at school by 7 am and rarely left before 430 or 5. I took home marking and planning with me every night. I spent half of sundays getting ready for monday and grading work. I was no part-time worker. I also worked in one of the highest paying districts around

Here I make almost double. Work more days. Just as much planning and marking time n similiar time requirements and 6 weeks off in summer. We also have a kick ass mandatory union that fights for us.

Teachers in the US don't make near what they deserve. Many states can't afford to provide teachers medical and dental benefits. I worked with a lot of people from different states that moved to Texas because they would have made much less than 30k a year and no benefits in their home state.