8.9 Earthquake hits Japan [Archive]

tallywacker

03-11-2011, 02:13 PM

Timeline so far with reactor...

Original post: Ominous flash from Kyodo Wire:

The operator of the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant reported an abnormality Friday following a powerful earthquake which hit a wide area in northeastern Japan including Fukushima Prefecture, the industry ministry said.

The system to cool reactor cores in case of emergency stopped at the No. 1 and No. 2 reactors of the plant operated by Tokyo Electric Power Co., it said.

There are reports that the Japanese PM will declare a nuclear emergency.

Update: There's no evidence of any radioactive leakage, but officials have confirmed that the cooling process for the nuclear plant has not yet gone according to plan.

Update 2: Japan has declared a nuclear emergency.

Update 3: 2000 residents near the Fukushima Nuclear Plant have been urged to evacuate.

Update 4: According to reports, Japanese jets have been ordered to fly over the Fukushima Nuclear plant

Update 5: According to Reuters, a Dam has broken in the same region as the at-risk nuclear power plant.

Update 6: The owner of the plant, TEPCO, says the reactor pressure is rising, and there are risks of a radiation leak, according to Reuters.

Update 7: Now the trade minister says a leak is possible.

Update 8: Word is, Japanese authorities will release a small amount of radioactive vapor into the air to ease pressure.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/fukushima-nuclear-plant-2011-3#ixzz1GJtk3z70

tallywacker

03-11-2011, 02:15 PM

Another 6.6 quake hits Japan

tallywacker

03-11-2011, 02:16 PM

List of Japan earthquakes today

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/region/Asia_eqs.php

Particle Man

03-11-2011, 02:30 PM

Not a good scene at all...

defector

03-11-2011, 02:33 PM

According to my phone, they are having aftershocks of at least magnitude 5.0 or higher about every 5 minutes off the coast of Japan (near Honshu).
Last one was 6.1 about 1/2 hour ago.

tallywacker

03-11-2011, 02:36 PM

According to my phone, they are having aftershocks of at least magnitude 5.0 or higher about every 5 minutes off the coast of Japan (near Honshu).
Last one was 6.1 about 1/2 hour ago.

Two of them above 6.0 in the last 15 mins according to the USGS.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/region/Asia_eqs.php

defector

03-11-2011, 02:41 PM

Can't hear the news where I'm at, but it sounds like it has been pretty much constant since 3PM (Japan time)?

tallywacker

03-11-2011, 02:45 PM

Can't hear the news where I'm at, but it sounds like it has been pretty much constant since 3PM (Japan time)?

Yep shit is crazy

Gas Man

03-11-2011, 03:40 PM

WOW just WOW

Ninjakel

03-11-2011, 03:42 PM

geez.............:(

Trip

03-11-2011, 05:16 PM

Here is what I know about Fukushima I.

It's similar to the GE BWR plant we have at Browns Ferry. Except they have 6 units to our 3. 4-6 is in outages though. It's outage season for nuclear folks. When we do our refueling. They lost offsite power and diesel generators for Unit 1. Units 2 and 3 are shutdown successfully. US Air Force has brought in some new DGs for them. Looks like they are going to be ok. Should be able to keep water over the fuel. Release won't be too bad if they can do that.

I hate BWRs, radiation is everywhere. Rad water powers the turbine. Mine is a PWR, rad water is contained in it's own loop. It doesn't come on the electrical producing side of the house such as the turbine. I do not go in the rad areas very often. I have only gotten dose once cause I had to go check out the pump motors for the similar pumps that they can't keep running in this case.

Hope this doesn't can our Nuke plans in the USA.

goof2

03-11-2011, 06:27 PM

Full Throttle

03-11-2011, 10:41 PM

Trip

03-11-2011, 11:08 PM

The BBC is reporting that, in addition to this reactor at the Fukushima-Daiichi plant, the cooling systems for three reactors at the Fukushima-Daini plant are malfunctioning as well.

Without significant regulatory and legal shifts I think our nuke plans were canned long before this.

Yeah, I will be getting trained on this soon, I can see.

We were actually just getting off the ground for building more. We just rebuilt Browns Ferry Unit 1. My plant, Watts Bar, is bringing online a Unit 2 for the first time currently and Bellefonte is right behind it.

No actually Nuke plans were a go in the Southeast. Im pretty sure they have been planning several more Nuke Plants to go up and be controlled by TVA.

Just read this.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20110307/NEWS21/103070343/TVA-20-year-plan-calls-more-nuclear-power-less-coal-use

"Tennessee Valley Authority... recommends greater use of nuclear power, natural gas and renewable resources and less reliance on coal in the next two decades."

"The board has approved funding for initial engineering design and site preparation for a Unit 1 reactor at the Bellefonte plant."

You don't need to read it. I am an engineer at Watts Bar Unit 1 and can fill you in on anything you want to know about it.

Full Throttle

03-11-2011, 11:48 PM

Yeah, I will be getting trained on this soon, I can see.

We were actually just getting off the ground for building more. We just rebuilt Browns Ferry Unit 1. My plant, Watts Bar, is bringing online a Unit 2 for the first time currently and Bellefonte is right behind it.

You don't need to read it. I am an engineer at Watts Bar Unit 1 and can fill you in on anything you want to know about it.

Only posted the article cause its so recent and cause no one seems to really like word of mouth on here much.

pauldun170

03-12-2011, 12:15 AM

I never knew that trip was homer simpson

Particle Man

03-12-2011, 12:16 AM

I never knew that trip was homer simpson

The skin tone didn't give you enough of a hint? :lol:

Trip

03-12-2011, 12:25 AM

I never knew that trip was homer simpson

I don't like donuts.

lying...lol

101lifts2

03-12-2011, 01:38 AM

This is not going to turn out good working for a Japanese OEM. They are already in chaos over there because many trains are not functioning and now the fear is loss of electric due to the nuclear plant issue.

Trip

03-12-2011, 02:49 AM

Screenie of my local paper website. Poor Cali and Oregon. Japan's damage is overrated.

Love the fear mongering over nuke meltdown too.

Particle Man

03-12-2011, 08:04 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.earthquake.tsunami.earth/index.html?hpt=T1

Whoa...

goof2

03-12-2011, 09:59 AM

No actually Nuke plans were a go in the Southeast. Im pretty sure they have been planning several more Nuke Plants to go up and be controlled by TVA.

Just read this.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20110307/NEWS21/103070343/TVA-20-year-plan-calls-more-nuclear-power-less-coal-use

"Tennessee Valley Authority... recommends greater use of nuclear power, natural gas and renewable resources and less reliance on coal in the next two decades."

"The board has approved funding for initial engineering design and site preparation for a Unit 1 reactor at the Bellefonte plant."

Yeah, I will be getting trained on this soon, I can see.

We were actually just getting off the ground for building more. We just rebuilt Browns Ferry Unit 1. My plant, Watts Bar, is bringing online a Unit 2 for the first time currently and Bellefonte is right behind it.

You don't need to read it. I am an engineer at Watts Bar Unit 1 and can fill you in on anything you want to know about it.

Adding reactors to an existing plant is one thing. Creating a new plant will, in my opinion, be much more difficult. The NIMBY reaction seems to be significantly diminished when there are already operating reactors in someone's back yard. To this specific case I hadn't even heard about this new reactor. If a new plant were being built though, my guess is between the environmental impact, disaster modeling, and endless lawsuits trying to prevent it there would be national news coverage on and off for ten years or more.

goof2

03-12-2011, 10:08 AM

Kaneman

03-12-2011, 10:20 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.earthquake.tsunami.earth/index.html?hpt=T1

Whoa...

All those 2012 predictions are looking less and less silly eh....?

tallywacker

03-12-2011, 09:13 PM

All those 2012 predictions are looking less and less silly eh....?

Only if you're a moron

Homeslice

03-12-2011, 09:41 PM

Only if you're a moron

:zowned:

Trip

03-12-2011, 10:49 PM

Adding reactors to an existing plant is one thing. Creating a new plant will, in my opinion, be much more difficult. The NIMBY reaction seems to be significantly diminished when there are already operating reactors in someone's back yard. To this specific case I hadn't even heard about this new reactor. If a new plant were being built though, my guess is between the environmental impact, disaster modeling, and endless lawsuits trying to prevent it there would be national news coverage on and off for ten years or more.

Well considering Georgia Power is currently in process of building some new design AP1000s and TVA is going to be building two AP1000s and two old design Westinghouse PWRs at a site that currently has 0 reactors, I would say the coverage is being done poorly right now.

Trip

03-12-2011, 10:52 PM

Oh and about the reactor issues they are having in Japan, I am a bit concerned the Japanese aren't sharing the whole story. With the way their culture is they can make the Iraqi Information Minister (remember him?) look like the paragon of honesty. There could be a massive mushroom cloud (hyperbole on my part) in the background while a spokesman is saying it is a minor fluctuation that should be contained very soon.

They are sharing the whole story, just not with you. I have a very detailed description of what has been done up until this morning in my work inbox. You are public though, you scare easily. When we describe a situation you have no idea about, it can be extremely scary.

Seriously, what would the public do with knowing that pressure in the drywell is raising because wetwell is getting hotter? Theres a lot of shit you guys don't understand about which systems do what, so if they say reactor core isolation cooling pumps were lost. You guys would just to jump to the words reactor and cooling and then it's Chernobyl all over again splashed across the news.

Let's just say Japan has stopped trying to save the reactor for use. They are getting it under control by sacrificing it's ability to ever produce power again.

tallywacker

03-12-2011, 11:09 PM

Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LPGzzaSsbU

Gas Man

03-12-2011, 11:18 PM

WOW that is way F'in weird!!!

Are they still having quakes?

Kaneman

03-12-2011, 11:20 PM

Trip, what's your estimate of the damage that will happen from the meltdowns alone?

tallywacker

03-12-2011, 11:23 PM

WOW that is way F'in weird!!!

Are they still having quakes?

Yeah, continuously

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/region/Asia_eqs.php

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/region/Asia.php

tallywacker

03-12-2011, 11:29 PM

Tokyo (CNN) -- A meltdown may have occurred at at least one nuclear power reactor in Japan, the country's chief cabinet secretary, Yukio Edano, said Sunday, adding that authorities are concerned about the possibility of another meltdown at a second reactor.

"We do believe that there is a possibility that meltdown has occurred. It is inside the reactor. We can't see. However, we are assuming that a meltdown has occurred," he said about the No. 1 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear facility.

Hmmm

Gas Man

03-12-2011, 11:34 PM

It really makes you feel helpless. I am glad to see that our govt and it's many agencies are going to their aid. Seems like we have a great deal of military there helping them as well. I always like seeing human aid, especially for those that are deserving.

tallywacker

03-12-2011, 11:40 PM

Sunday, March 13, 2011
Meltdown Caused Nuke Plant Explosion: Safety Body

TOKYO (Nikkei)--The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said Saturday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core.

The same day, Tokyo Electric Power Co. (9501), which runs the plant, began to flood the damaged reactor with seawater to cool it down, resorting to measures that could rust the reactor and force the utility to scrap it.

Cesium and iodine, by-products of nuclear fission, were detected around the plant, which would make the explosion the worst accident in the roughly 50-year history of Japanese nuclear power generation.

An explosion was heard near the plant's No. 1 reactor about 3:30 p.m. and plumes of white smoke went up 10 minutes later. The ceiling of the building housing the reactor collapsed, according to information obtained by Fukushima prefectural authorities.

At a news conference Saturday night, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano discounted the possibility of a significant leak of radioactive material from the accident. "The walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode," Edano said.

The amount of radiation detected inside the plant after 4:00 p.m. slightly exceeded the dose people can safely receive in a year, according to information obtained by the Fukushima prefectural government.

The No. 1 reactor shut down automatically soon after a massive earthquake hit the area Friday, but its emergency core cooling system failed to cool the reactor's core sufficiently.

NISA is affiliated with the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry.

(The Nikkei March 13 edition)
http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110312D12JFF03.htm

tallywacker

03-12-2011, 11:47 PM

http://i.imgur.com/lijq4.jpg

Trip

03-13-2011, 12:06 AM

Trip, what's your estimate of the damage that will happen from the meltdowns alone?

First, you need to understand what the Media is calling a "meltdown."

This is what was taken from one of the articles. We don't use the term "meltdown" in the nuclear industry for what they are referring to.

A meltdown refers to a very serious collapse of a power plant's systems and its ability to manage temperatures. A complete meltdown would release uranium and dangerous byproducts into the environment that can pose serious health risks.

I think this is going to be a successful failure. They have mitigating worst case scenarios and in one unit they have resorted to calling the unit a loss and dumping sea water in it. That pretty much assures it will never be used again. The explosion, while bad, was not in the containment building. The containment building is still intact. It's nowhere near as bad as Chernobyl.

You got to understand there are several "buildings" inside of "buildings" in the overall reactor building. Where the explosion happened was in the concrete reactor building because they released gases with hydrogen from the containment building to relieve pressure. Those gases reacted badly and took down the concrete reactor building. There is also a very thick steel containment building thats inside the concrete building, which is still intact. This steel building has all the primary cooling systems and reactor vessel protected inside it. The vessel is the protection for the actual core.

Unit 3 to my knowledge is still salvageable, if they start dumping sea water in it as well, you know they have given up on it.

derf

03-13-2011, 01:20 PM

First, you need to understand what the Media is calling a "meltdown."

This is what was taken from one of the articles. We don't use the term "meltdown" in the nuclear industry for what they are referring to.

I think this is going to be a successful failure. They have mitigating worst case scenarios and in one unit they have resorted to calling the unit a loss and dumping sea water in it. That pretty much assures it will never be used again. The explosion, while bad, was not in the containment building. The containment building is still intact. It's nowhere near as bad as Chernobyl.

You got to understand there are several "buildings" inside of "buildings" in the overall reactor building. Where the explosion happened was in the concrete reactor building because they released gases with hydrogen from the containment building to relieve pressure. Those gases reacted badly and took down the concrete reactor building. There is also a very thick steel containment building thats inside the concrete building, which is still intact. This steel building has all the primary cooling systems and reactor vessel protected inside it. The vessel is the protection for the actual core.

Unit 3 to my knowledge is still salvageable, if they start dumping sea water in it as well, you know they have given up on it.

Video of the boom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjx-JlwYtyE

goof2

03-13-2011, 01:29 PM

Well considering Georgia Power is currently in process of building some new design AP1000s and TVA is going to be building two AP1000s and two old design Westinghouse PWRs at a site that currently has 0 reactors, I would say the coverage is being done poorly right now.

I guess we will see. I'd be surprised if the TVA site is generating any electricity in the next 12+ years.

Trip

03-13-2011, 01:34 PM

I guess we will see. I'd be surprised if the TVA site is generating any electricity in the next 12+ years.

Unit 1 at bellefonte is due to begin construction in 2013. After watts bar 2 is complete.

Tva is only building as we need the power. We got in a lot of debt by building too many sites a few decades ago.

101lifts2

03-13-2011, 05:10 PM

Unit 1 at bellefonte is due to begin construction in 2013. After watts bar 2 is complete.

Tva is only building as we need the power. We got in a lot of debt by building too many sites a few decades ago.

Are all nuclear powerplant facilities built in the same fashion with the levels of security needed in case of a "meltdown" or whatever else can happen? Or is it specific to the level of money the country/company has put into it. I guess I'm asking if there is some standardization that all plants try to conform to.

fasternyou929

03-13-2011, 06:28 PM

First, you need to understand what the Media is calling a "meltdown."

This is what was taken from one of the articles. We don't use the term "meltdown" in the nuclear industry for what they are referring to.

I think this is going to be a successful failure. They have mitigating worst case scenarios and in one unit they have resorted to calling the unit a loss and dumping sea water in it. That pretty much assures it will never be used again. The explosion, while bad, was not in the containment building. The containment building is still intact. It's nowhere near as bad as Chernobyl.

You got to understand there are several "buildings" inside of "buildings" in the overall reactor building. Where the explosion happened was in the concrete reactor building because they released gases with hydrogen from the containment building to relieve pressure. Those gases reacted badly and took down the concrete reactor building. There is also a very thick steel containment building thats inside the concrete building, which is still intact. This steel building has all the primary cooling systems and reactor vessel protected inside it. The vessel is the protection for the actual core.

Unit 3 to my knowledge is still salvageable, if they start dumping sea water in it as well, you know they have given up on it.
What was the difference, technically, between Chernobyl and Three Mile Island? Two completely unique scenarios or was the fallout from TMI contained because the surrounding structures were more robust? Which of the two is Japan's scenario more similar to?

The media doesn't know enough to give any usable details, and they refuse to educate themselves to the point they can speak about their news stories. No different than when they "report" on motorcycle accidents or anything else.

Trip

03-13-2011, 09:35 PM

Are all nuclear powerplant facilities built in the same fashion with the levels of security needed in case of a "meltdown" or whatever else can happen? Or is it specific to the level of money the country/company has put into it. I guess I'm asking if there is some standardization that all plants try to conform to.

Each plant is built to a unique standard. It's based on a ton of different factors such as proximity to fault lines, what natural disasters are common around it, and such. For meltdown, all plants I know about are built around 3 levels of protection. The fuel cladding, cooling system, and containment building.

What was the difference, technically, between Chernobyl and Three Mile Island? Two completely unique scenarios or was the fallout from TMI contained because the surrounding structures were more robust? Which of the two is Japan's scenario more similar to?

The media doesn't know enough to give any usable details, and they refuse to educate themselves to the point they can speak about their news stories. No different than when they "report" on motorcycle accidents or anything else.

Two completely unique scenarios.

Three mile island had poor indications and thought they had too much coolant instead of no coolant. They melted the fuel in the vessel and released solid radioactive products out of containment, but without any visible damage to the environment. It had little to no effect on the public. Just scared the shit out of them and ruined a reactor.

Chernobyl was running a bunch of tests that aren't normally run and they did it poorly. They blew the reactor and fuel all over the countryside.

azoomm

03-13-2011, 11:03 PM

Trip, thanks for some awesome info. My father worked for GE to install the The Tsuruga Nuclear Power Plant. He and I were talking about what was going on. It's all amazing.

Some of the pictures:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/13/world/asia/satellite-photos-japan-before-and-after-tsunami.html?hp

Quake moved Japan coast 8 feet, shifted Earth's axis:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.earthquake.tsunami.earth/index.html?iref=allsearch

goof2

03-13-2011, 11:29 PM

A few news outlets are reporting another huge explosion, this one at Fukushima's reactor 3.

Trip

03-13-2011, 11:31 PM

A few news outlets are reporting another huge explosion, this one at Fukushima's reactor 3.

Probably hydrogen in the reactor building again.

tallywacker

03-14-2011, 01:14 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx6IS0vrZOk

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/von%20havenstein/Reactor%203.jpg

CasterTroy

03-14-2011, 03:49 PM

Freaky ass video right here!!

http://www.wxii12.com/video/27185323/detail.html

Particle Man

03-14-2011, 03:56 PM

Freaky ass video right here!!

http://www.wxii12.com/video/27185323/detail.html

I don't know about you but I wouldn't be standing around fliming cracks opening up in the ground and moving like that :eek:

CasterTroy

03-14-2011, 03:57 PM

S'what I JUST said after posting it on FB :lol

OneSickPsycho

03-14-2011, 04:46 PM

I don't know about you but I wouldn't be standing around fliming cracks opening up in the ground and moving like that :eek:

Yeah, but really... what the hell would you do? Run around screaming? Ground opening up EVERYWHERE... pretty much fucked.

CasterTroy

03-14-2011, 04:56 PM

Yeah, but really... what the hell would you do? Run around screaming? Ground opening up EVERYWHERE... pretty much fucked.

Surely there was a chick within a few 100 yards! :hug:michael jackson

Or at least :neeb: or :gtfo:

njchopper87

03-14-2011, 05:24 PM

I only skimmed through this, but I learned a lot. Thanks for the info.

I've been keeping up with this event on the news and will donate a little to the cause later on tonight.

Particle Man

03-14-2011, 07:59 PM

Yeah, but really... what the hell would you do? Run around screaming?

That's one option, sure (and probably the one I'd pick)

Trip

03-14-2011, 08:02 PM

Here's a pretty cool graphic of the reactor building at Daichi:

http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h384/reactor1/BoilingWaterReactorDesign_3.jpg

MikeSP1

03-14-2011, 08:10 PM

WOW that is way F'in weird!!!

Are they still having quakes?

Yes

derf

03-15-2011, 12:14 AM

and now reactor #4 is on fire

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/14/japan.disaster/index.html?hpt=T1

tallywacker

03-15-2011, 12:51 AM

Radiation fears rise after blast

Japan's prime minister warned that radioactive levels had become high around an earthquake-stricken nuclear power plant after explosions at two reactors, while the French embassy in the capital warned that a low level of radioactive wind could reach Tokyo in about 10 hours.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/us-japan-quake-idUSTRE72A0SS20110315

tallywacker

03-15-2011, 01:33 AM

PM Kan urges those remaining near plants to leave

Prime Minister Naoto Kan has urged all residents to evacuate from within 20 kilometers of the disaster-stricken Fukushima No.1 nuclear power station. He told people living within 20 to 30 kilometers to stay indoors.

Kan issued a public appeal on Tuesday morning, saying 2 hydrogen explosions and a fire are raising the level of radioactivity released into the atmosphere. He said there's also an increased danger of more radioactive leaks.

The prime minister said most people who live within the 20-kilometer evacuation area have already taken refuge, but that he wants every single person to leave.

He said all-out efforts are being made to prevent further explosions or radioactive leaks, adding that plant workers are risking their lives to inject water to cool the reactor cores.

The prime minister said that although he understands people's anxiety, he wants the public to remain calm.

Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:39 +0900 (JST)

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/15_29.html

VatorMan

03-15-2011, 06:33 AM

They have raised the earthquake seismic factor to 9.0.

Trip

03-15-2011, 08:46 AM

There is only spent fuel in reactor #4.

Yukio Edano, Japan’s Chief Cabinet Secretary, during a live press conference at 10 p.m. EDT, said there is a fire at Fukushima Daiichi 4 that is accompanied by high levels of radiation between Units 3 and 4 at the site. The fire began burning at Unit 4 at around 6 a.m. Japan time on March 14 and is still burning. Fire fighters are responding to the fire. The reactor does not have fuel in the reactor, but there is spent fuel in the reactor (pool) and Edano said that he assumes radioactive substances are being released. “The substances are coming out from the No. 4 reactor and we are making the utmost effort to put out the first and also cool down the No. 4 reactor (pool).”

Edano said that a blast was heard this morning at Unit 2 at about 6:30 a.m. A hole was observed in the number 2 reactor and he said there is very little possibility that an explosion will occur at Unit 2.

“The part of the suppression chamber seems to have caused the blast,” Edano said. A small amount of radioactive substance seems to have been released to the outside.

TEPCO workers continue to pump sea water at 1, 2 and 3 reactors. “The biggest problem is how to maintain the cooling and how to contain the fire at No. 4.” At 10:22 a.m. Japan time, the radiation level between units 2 and 3 were as high as 40 rem per hour. “We are talking about levels that can impact human health.” Edano said.

Of the 800 staff that remained at the power plant, all but 50 who are directly involved in pumping water into the reactor have been evacuated.

the chi

03-15-2011, 09:18 AM

Trip

03-15-2011, 09:34 AM

It's no where near Chernobyl, but it is bad. The last two explosions were not good. The first two were not major concerns, the last two had direct effect on bad stuff getting out.

dubbs

03-15-2011, 10:07 AM

It's no where near Chernobyl, but it is bad. The last two explosions were not good. The first two were not major concerns, the last two had direct effect on bad stuff getting out.

The only thing I don't understand is why are these explosions and fires happening when the fail safe was to use sea water to flood the reactor and cool it down?

the chi

03-15-2011, 10:07 AM

Thanks for clearing that up for me. :dthumb: Are the reports I've heard about folks just being able to "wash off" the bad stuff true? My boss was telling me she saw a report that said if people just showered after being outside they would be fine. Or are they saying that to make ppl feel better?

(Yeah, I know, probably dumb questions, but Im not up on global disaster protocol.)

Papa_Complex

03-15-2011, 10:11 AM

So Im reading all this crap and it's basically greek. Trip, the media is saying this is the worst crisis since Chernobyl. Can I safely assume they are blowing things (pardon the term) way out of proportion?

Technically that's true, since it's the ONLY real major crisis since Chernobyl, but a great deal of it is hype. Reporting is all over the place, on this. Japanese media is rather calm. Western media, and even English language media in Japan, is tending toward the sensational.

Trip

03-15-2011, 10:12 AM

The only thing I don't understand is why are these explosions and fires happening when the fail safe was to use sea water to flood the reactor and cool it down?

Hydrogen. When they damage the fuel, it produces hydrogen. Hydrogen is very very violatile. The first two explosions were of little consequence. That part of the building is basically a protector against rain. The last two are bad, real bad.

Papa_Complex

03-15-2011, 10:14 AM

There are rumours spreading that this has been upgraded to a level 6. All that I've heard, from credible media and official sources, is that it was upgraded to a 5 since those explosions.

Trip

03-15-2011, 10:16 AM

Latest update as of 9:15am EST

UPDATE AS OF 9:15 A.M. EDT, TUESDAY, MARCH 15:
Fukushima Daiichi
Units 1 and 3 at Fukushima Daiichi are stable and cooling is being maintained through seawater injection. Primary containment integrity has been maintained on both reactors.

The Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA) reported an explosion in the suppression pool at Fukushima Daiichi Unit 2, at 7:14 p.m. EDT on March 14. Reactor water level was reported to be at 2.7 meters below the top of the fuel. The pressure in the suppression pool decreased from 3 atmospheres to 1 atmosphere. Radiation readings at the site increased to 96 millirem per hour.

Dose rates at Fukushima Daiichi as reported at 10:22 p.m. EDT on March 14 were:

Near Unit 3 reactor building 40 rem/hr
Near Unit 4 reactor building 10 rem/hr
At site boundary 821 millirem/hr.
Kitaibaraki (200 km south of site) 0.4 millirem/hr.

We are working on getting updated information on radiation and dose rates at and near the plant.

Station personnel not directly supporting reactor recovery efforts have been evacuated, leaving approximately 50 staff members at the site. Operators are no longer in the main control room due to high radiation levels.

Safety relief valves were able to be re-opened and seawater injection into the reactor core was restarted around 1 a.m. EDT on March 15 and is continuing.

At Unit 4 on March 14 at approximately 8:38 p.m. EDT, a fire was reported in the reactor building. It is believed to have been from a lube oil leak in a system that drives recirculation water pumps. Fire fighting efforts extinguished the fire. The roof of the reactor building was damaged.

Fukushima Daini
All four reactors at Fukushima Daini are being maintained with normal cooling using residual heat removal systems.

40 rem/hr is bad, very bad. The volunteers that stayed behind are brave brave individuals.

Papa_Complex

03-15-2011, 10:24 AM

The latest thing, that I heard, was that lack of fuel availability and transport was starting to impact the ability to pump sea water in for cooling.

Trip

03-15-2011, 10:30 AM

The latest thing, that I heard, was that lack of fuel availability and transport was starting to impact the ability to pump sea water in for cooling.

The Japs have asked formally for help, if they need fuel, that shit will get flown in there as quick as possible.

tommymac

03-15-2011, 10:33 AM

Latest update as of 9:15am EST

40 rem/hr is bad, very bad. The volunteers that stayed behind are brave brave individuals.

may be brave but will probably die of some funky nasty types of cancer.

Trip

03-15-2011, 10:34 AM

may be brave but will probably die of some funky nasty types of cancer.

Some of them might not have to wait for cancer.

tommymac

03-15-2011, 10:35 AM

Some of them might not have to wait for cancer.

They would be the lucky ones.

CasterTroy

03-15-2011, 10:35 AM

may be brave but will probably die of some funky nasty types of cancer.

They likely realize they're life expectancy is less than that of milk right now

Trip

03-15-2011, 10:36 AM

Looks like they getting things under control:

UPDATE AS OF 10:20 A.M. EDT, TUESDAY, MARCH 15:
The level of radioactivity at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant has been decreasing, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency.

At 8 p.m. EDT March 15, a dose rate of 1,190 millirem per hour was observed. Six hours later, the dose rate was 60 millirem per hour, IAEA said.

About 150 residents near the Fukushima Daiichi site have been checked for radiation and 23 have been decontaminated.

Japanese authorities have distributed potassium iodide tablets to evacuation center (see this page for more information on potassium iodide). If taken within several hours of ingesting radioactive iodine, potassium iodide can protect the thyroid gland.

z06boy

03-15-2011, 11:12 AM

Looks like they getting things under control:

Good...hope it's true.

Papa_Complex

03-15-2011, 11:13 AM

They likely realize they're life expectancy is less than that of milk right now

And that's where words like "hero" aren't abused, when used.

derf

03-15-2011, 12:39 PM

Papa_Complex

03-15-2011, 01:25 PM

I still think that the earthquake, and the ensuing tsunami were plans by the obama administration to wipe out hawaii and any question about his birth certificate, but it backfired and got japan instead..

Damned Democrats. If they had any respect for gun culture, then they might have developed decent aim.

EpyonXero

03-15-2011, 02:03 PM

Crazy tsunami video

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12725646

tommymac

03-15-2011, 02:12 PM

Crazy tsunami video

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12725646

thats some crazy devastation there, cars and boats being tossed like its nothing.

OneSickPsycho

03-15-2011, 02:22 PM

Most impressive video yet IMO... all the others it just looks like a gradual wash that grows into a torrent... this really shows how quickly it went from fucked, to beyond totally fucked.

tommymac

03-15-2011, 02:23 PM

Most impressive video yet IMO... all the others it just looks like a gradual wash that grows into a torrent... this really shows how quickly it went from fucked, to beyond totally fucked.

yeah, in par tof that vid you can see cars driving in the background, poor bastards prolly had no idea what was about to hit them.

tallywacker

03-15-2011, 10:46 PM

Another fire at No.4 reactor

Tokyo Electric Power Company said early on Wednesday that a fire had broken out at one of the reactor buildings at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant. The same building was the scene of a fire the day before.

The utility says a worker spotted flames at around 5:45 AM near the northwestern corner of the building that houses the No. 4 reactor.

It says, however, that the flames could not be confirmed half an hour later from several dozen meters away.

The fire broke out at around the same spot in the building as Tuesday's fire, where an instrument that adjusts the speed of a pump sending water to the reactor is located.

The company says workers cannot get any closer to the spot because the radiation level is higher there.

It says Tuesday's fire went out on its own, and that its cause is unclear.

The No. 4 Reactor was undergoing checks at the time of the quake, and was not operating. But the utility company has been having trouble cooling down a storage pool for spent nuclear fuel rods inside the building.

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:12 +0900 (JST)

Far from an under control situation.

tallywacker

03-15-2011, 10:47 PM

Fuel rods further damaged at Fukushima Daiichi

At the quake-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, it is feared that the fuel rods in two of its reactors are being rapidly damaged as they remain exposed due to the failed injection of coolant.

Tokyo Electric Power has estimated the extent of small holes or cracks in the fuel rods, based on the amount of radioactive material in the coolant.

It says 43 percent of the fuel rods in the No.1 reactor were possibly damaged at 1 PM on Tuesday, but the ratio had increased to 70 percent by 3:25 PM.
At the No.2 reactor, the ratio rose to 33 percent from 14.

In both reactors, the coolant levels are low, exposing the fuel rods. Sea water is being pumped into the reactors to cool them down, but the coolant level remains low, creating the risk of a meltdown.
Damaged fuel rods would leak radioactive material.

The pressure inside the reactors is sinking and Tokyo Electric Power is monitoring the data carefully while continuing to pump more sea water.

Wednesday, March 16, 2011 08:00 +0900 (JST)

This isn't good either

tallywacker

03-15-2011, 10:55 PM

All workers have been evacuated besides critical staff.

tallywacker

03-15-2011, 11:12 PM

ALL operators have now been ordered to leave. Looks like they are just going to let the reactors go because there is nothing left.

Japan has asked for all help from US military forces.

Gas Man

03-15-2011, 11:27 PM

What we going to do to it? Blow it up?

tallywacker

03-15-2011, 11:29 PM

What we going to do to it? Blow it up?

Right now two reactors are critical and one is believed to be leaking. 1000mSv of radiation have been detected. Which is enough for radiation poisoning and fatal.

goof2

03-15-2011, 11:39 PM

What we going to do to it? Blow it up?

As I understand it blowing up a nuclear reactor doesn't go well. The radioactive material effectively turns it in to a dirty bomb.

Gas Man

03-15-2011, 11:44 PM

Super bomb?

tallywacker

03-15-2011, 11:47 PM

They are now allowing the workers to go back. The think the spike in radioactivity has gone down again.

Trip

03-16-2011, 07:28 AM

Gas Man

03-16-2011, 07:30 AM

They are being tight lipped about info. Our NRC boys are going out there to help. I think we will find out about a lot of human errors once this is all said and done. This may be the end of any new nuke plans we had going forward.
Then that would be sad.

I don't see "alternative" sources of energy like sun & wind producing enough. So that leaves you with coal? Or coke burn which will just push up the price of crude oil.

tommymac

03-16-2011, 07:31 AM

They are being tight lipped about info. Our NRC boys are going out there to help. I think we will find out about a lot of human errors once this is all said and done. This may be the end of any new nuke plans we had going forward.

Do you think thats more of a knee jerk reaction to all this or theres more credibility that we shouldnt build mor enuclear plants?

Papa_Complex

03-16-2011, 07:40 AM

They are being tight lipped about info. Our NRC boys are going out there to help. I think we will find out about a lot of human errors once this is all said and done. This may be the end of any new nuke plans we had going forward.

Odds are that the "human errors" will involve dead humans not being able to do certain things. From the sounds of it, going in, the tsunami eliminated much of the equipment necessary to get the reactions under control.

Up here, one of our opposition parties is pushing for more studies and delays on plans to build two new nuclear power plants, because of the issues in Japan. Our CANDU reactors are built to take something like a 6.8 quake, when all that we've seen here is hundreds of times weaker. They use unenriched uranium fuel. The fuel rods are horizontal, rather than the vertical orientation that seems common in other reactors. As a moderator and certain separation of rods is required for sustained reaction this means that if a high temperature run-away situation occurs the rods will tend to slump, which will naturally slow or even halt the reaction.

They're obviously playing politics, as many of the issues raised are non-issues for us.

Trip

03-16-2011, 07:57 AM

Do you think thats more of a knee jerk reaction to all this or theres more credibility that we shouldnt build mor enuclear plants?

knee jerk reactions. The jap plant two very very significant natural disasters that were both over it's design criteria. No one planned for that level of an event.

tommymac

03-16-2011, 08:02 AM

knee jerk reactions. The jap plant two very very significant natural disasters that were both over it's design criteria. No one planned for that level of an event.

Thats kinda what I figured, its not like we have 8.9 earthquakes and 30 ft tsunamis every day, and considering japan is on a major fault line these things should be factored in somehow.

Gas Man

03-16-2011, 08:14 AM

knee jerk reactions. The jap plant two very very significant natural disasters that were both over it's design criteria. No one planned for that level of an event.
But I bet you have a "extreme case" event plan.

Trip

03-16-2011, 08:21 AM

But I bet you have a "extreme case" event plan.

Yes, but not on the level of what happened in Japan. We are built for a 5.something earthquake.

tommymac

03-16-2011, 08:31 AM

Yes, but not on the level of what happened in Japan. We are built for a 5.something earthquake.

if I am not mistaken you arent near any major fault lines either. I would assume that your plant is better prepared for other disasters that could hit the area like flooding or hurricaines.

Particle Man

03-16-2011, 08:33 AM

There's no such thing as a design that can anticipate every single event. All things considered, the damn things withstood a 9.0 quake and didn't split apart- that's pretty damn impressive in and of itself.

Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 and someone always steps up and says, "But you should have X"

if I am not mistaken you arent near any major fault lines either.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_brevard_fault_zone

Trip

03-16-2011, 08:34 AM

if I am not mistaken you arent near any major fault lines either. I would assume that your plant is better prepared for other disasters that could hit the area like flooding or hurricaines.

We are near a non active fault line. We don't worry about hurricanes. Tornado shielding and dam break flooding is more our thing.

Particle Man

03-16-2011, 08:38 AM

dam break flooding

mini tsunami-type stuff?

Trip

03-16-2011, 08:41 AM

mini tsunami-type stuff?

yeah, I guess it would be. They have 100 year/1000 year flood plans and such.

goof2

03-16-2011, 11:04 AM

They are being tight lipped about info. Our NRC boys are going out there to help. I think we will find out about a lot of human errors once this is all said and done. This may be the end of any new nuke plans we had going forward.

I'm not an engineer but I do have a casual interest (reading and watching TV) in engineering disasters. To me the most common trait shared by massive failures of complex systems with lots of redundancy is lots of errors, most innocuous, compounding to create a "this can't happen" outcome. Another common theme seems to be people getting in over their heads, but refusing to recognize that while it can still make a difference. My guess is we will see both those issues are key components in the eventual failure analysis.

Yeah, our nuke plans would have been difficult and expensive before. I think we can mark this disaster as the day those nuke plans died.

Oh and about the reactor issues they are having in Japan, I am a bit concerned the Japanese aren't sharing the whole story. With the way their culture is they can make the Iraqi Information Minister (remember him?) look like the paragon of honesty. There could be a massive mushroom cloud (hyperbole on my part) in the background while a spokesman is saying it is a minor fluctuation that should be contained very soon.

I haven't seen anyone put a story up about it, but from the way they were talking about the company that operates this plant on CNN last night I fear my concerns may have been justified.

CasterTroy

03-16-2011, 11:50 AM

I'm not an engineer

I am....and hold on before you think I'm pounding on my chest. Despite what people THINK...engineers get paid SQUAT and work for fee's that (on paper) have you losing twice the money you make every year.

How do you break even? 16hr days :td:

Fee's (you would think) should go up exponentially every year due to cost of living, inflation, general economy, yet in the last 12 years our fee's have remained the same, and generally get CUT by 1/3 if we want the job :skep:

I say all that to comment on THIS:
To me the most common trait shared by massive failures of complex systems with lots of redundancy is lots of errors, most innocuous, compounding to create a "this can't happen" outcome. Another common theme seems to be people getting in over their heads, but refusing to recognize that while it can still make a difference.

Now I haven't EVER done a nuclear facility, but I work with the government every day. Military bases, schools, federal facilites. And every SINGLE one is done with the most ABSOLUTE cheapest possible solution. (PM&E anyway)

Ideal: VAV boxes, hot gas reheat, 4 pipe systems.

What they end up GETTING? : 2-pipe systems and DX split systems out the ass :wtfru:

Not sure if Japan's Gov operates on the same trim and slim budget, but I for one am tired as hell of seeing the lowest bid get the work and settling for sub-par crap when we NEED to be designing the BEST system for the money.

This goes for HVAC & Plumbing (which is my specialty) or friggin nuclear plants, teachers, IRS workers.....what-the-hell ever.

So in response, I'm not saying you're WRONG, I'm saying that it's probably more likely DOLLAR (or Yen) driven more than it is design flaw. I'd almost bet there is paperwork where SOMEONE said "Oh yeah, it could happen, and we've designed for it" then some penny pincher came in and slashed the budget and told them to design around that penny on the floor.

Sorry...rant over

KSGregman

03-16-2011, 11:51 AM

It's honestly just further evidence, as if any additional evidence was required, of mankinds ultimate hubris....an insufferable arrogance about our ability to "control" the environment.

There is NOTHING that mankind can build that the forces of nature on this planet cannot destroy.

Period. To think otherwise is just foolishness.

They built a fucking nuke plant on the worlds largest subduction zone fault line....on the coast....well within range of tidal waves. Why? Because they believed that were that good....that they were that capable....that they had it ALL figured out....THEY are masters of the environment.

Uh huh....nature shit canned every bit of that.

goof2

03-16-2011, 12:31 PM

I am....and hold on before you think I'm pounding on my chest. Despite what people THINK...engineers get paid SQUAT and work for fee's that (on paper) have you losing twice the money you make every year.

How do you break even? 16hr days :td:

Fee's (you would think) should go up exponentially every year due to cost of living, inflation, general economy, yet in the last 12 years our fee's have remained the same, and generally get CUT by 1/3 if we want the job :skep:

I say all that to comment on THIS:

Now I haven't EVER done a nuclear facility, but I work with the government every day. Military bases, schools, federal facilites. And every SINGLE one is done with the most ABSOLUTE cheapest possible solution. (PM&E anyway)

Ideal: VAV boxes, hot gas reheat, 4 pipe systems.

What they end up GETTING? : 2-pipe systems and DX split systems out the ass :wtfru:

Not sure if Japan's Gov operates on the same trim and slim budget, but I for one am tired as hell of seeing the lowest bid get the work and settling for sub-par crap when we NEED to be designing the BEST system for the money.

This goes for HVAC & Plumbing (which is my specialty) or friggin nuclear plants, teachers, IRS workers.....what-the-hell ever.

So in response, I'm not saying you're WRONG, I'm saying that it's probably more likely DOLLAR (or Yen) driven more than it is design flaw. I'd almost bet there is paperwork where SOMEONE said "Oh yeah, it could happen, and we've designed for it" then some penny pincher came in and slashed the budget and told them to design around that penny on the floor.

Sorry...rant over

I'm not saying this crisis has been driven by design flaws, regardless of whether they were created through lack of thought or lack of money, though I'm sure they will be a factor. From my admittedly limited knowledge I'm much more likely to think it was compounding operational errors, rather than design flaws, that has allowed this problem to get so wildly out of control.

If my understanding of the accident at Chernobyl is correct it serves as a good example. Yes, in order to save money, time, whatever that reactor didn't have a containment vessel designed to prevent the release of radiation in case of a meltdown (storing spent fuel rods outside the containment vessel at the Japanese reactors may prove to have been a similar mistake). In order for the lack of a containment vessel to become a problem though it took days worth of operational errors, terrible decision making, institutional arrogance, and terrible training compounding upon itself. Of course it is with the benefit of hindsight, but looking at a timeline of Chernobyl it seems as if one or two more good decisions at almost any point could have prevented the meltdown in the first place.

Trip

03-16-2011, 12:39 PM

Engineering is a little different in the nuclear world in the USA. We get paid more than you non nuke folks, but we put up with a ton more paperwork. We are encouraged to whistle blow since TMI. This culture doesn't seem to be encouraged in Japan though.

If my understanding of the accident at Chernobyl is correct it serves as a good example. Yes, in order to save money, time, whatever that reactor didn't have a containment vessel designed to prevent the release of radiation in case of a meltdown (storing spent fuel rods outside the containment vessel at the Japanese reactors may prove to have been a similar mistake). In order for the lack of a containment vessel to become a problem though it took days worth of operational errors, terrible decision making, institutional arrogance, and terrible training compounding upon itself. Of course it is with the benefit of hindsight, but looking at a timeline of Chernobyl it seems as if one or two more good decisions at almost any point could have prevented the meltdown in the first place.

The major issue with Chernobyl was management direction to perform idiotic tests on the turbine/reactor that shouldn't have been performed.

goof2

03-16-2011, 01:42 PM

The major issue with Chernobyl was management direction to perform idiotic tests on the turbine/reactor that shouldn't have been performed.

OK, and that is where I understood the poor decision making started. My understanding though is that this was compounded by a ton of other decisions which led to the eventual meltdown. In my, again, amateur view there were a number of points further along the chain of events where one or two better decisions could have also averted the meltdown.

As an example, from what I understand there was an unusual demand for power at the time when management had scheduled the test requiring the test to be delayed. By the time they could run the test the workers who had been trained to perform the test had been replaced by another shift. Instead of waiting for a time when the trained staff returned, management decided to run the the dangerous and unnecessary test with untrained staff. That untrained staff ended up making further mistakes that allowed the meltdown.

We both agree that if the management hadn't run the test in the first place there wouldn't have been a meltdown at that point. We probably both agree that using staff trained for the test would have significantly reduced the chances of a meltdown. While the decision to run the test may have been the root cause of the meltdown, it didn't guarantee one. The meltdown required further mistakes building on top of one another in order to happen.

I realize I'm couching a lot of what I say with qualifiers, but it is necessary since I am in no way qualified to make definitive statements about any of this.

Trip

03-16-2011, 01:47 PM

OK, and that is where I understood the poor decision making started. My understanding though is that this was compounded by a ton of other decisions which led to the eventual meltdown. In my, again, amateur view there were a number of points further along the chain of events where one or two better decisions could have also averted the meltdown.

As an example, from what I understand there was an unusual demand for power at the time when management had scheduled the test requiring the test to be delayed. By the time they could run the test the workers who had been trained to perform the test had been replaced by another shift. Instead of waiting for a time when the trained staff returned, management decided to run the the dangerous and unnecessary test with untrained staff. That untrained staff ended up making further mistakes that allowed the meltdown.

We both agree that if the management hadn't run the test in the first place there wouldn't have been a meltdown at that point. We probably both agree that using staff trained for the test would have significantly reduced the chances of a meltdown. While the decision to run the test may have been the root cause of the meltdown, it didn't guarantee one. The meltdown required further mistakes building on top of one another in order to happen.

I realize I'm couching a lot of what I say with qualifiers, but it is necessary since I am in no way qualified to make definitive statements about any of this.

There is always a chain of events and lessons learned beyond the root cause, but the root cause is management being douchers.

EpyonXero

03-16-2011, 03:57 PM

Great explanation of whats going on with the reactors.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/12/world/asia/the-explosion-at-the-japanese-reactor.html?ref=asia

tallywacker

03-16-2011, 03:59 PM

Well the reactors aren't the only issue. The spent rod pools don't have any water.

Particle Man

03-16-2011, 04:09 PM

Great explanation of whats going on with the reactors.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/12/world/asia/the-explosion-at-the-japanese-reactor.html?ref=asia

pretty neat graphic explanation

of course, I only know about as much as I learned in college physics and stuff

Trip

03-16-2011, 04:57 PM

We got a briefing today. There are a lot of wtf were they doing questions.

Trip

03-16-2011, 08:03 PM

Things look extremely grim. Spent fuel pool of #4 is dry. This looks to be getting very very ugly.

tallywacker

03-16-2011, 08:32 PM

Things look extremely grim. Spent fuel pool of #4 is dry. This looks to be getting very very ugly.

It's been dry since yesterday.

Trip

03-16-2011, 09:06 PM

It's been dry since yesterday.

I don't follow speculation. NRC reported it today.

tallywacker

03-16-2011, 09:42 PM

I don't follow speculation. NRC reported it today.

It wasn't speculation, it was from the Japanese press releases from their government yesterday. Right now they discovered #3's pools are empty as well.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/

great place for everything, the Japanese media.

Also http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/index-e.html the power companies press releases.

We have a near 300page thread on www.offtopic.com dedicated to it. We have two reactor engineers on that site posting. Also many Japanese members translating to us.

You can't believe anything the US media is reporting, it's all wrong and retarded.

Particle Man

03-16-2011, 09:45 PM

Things look extremely grim. Spent fuel pool of #4 is dry. This looks to be getting very very ugly.

No containment vessle.. shit.

Wonder how long those suckers had been cooling before all this happened...

tallywacker

03-16-2011, 09:55 PM

No containment vessle.. shit.

Wonder how long those suckers had been cooling before all this happened...

The containment vessel is still there. Its the pools that keep the spent rods in the higher levels of the containment building that are comprimised. Right now they are continuously using helicopters to dump water on them.

http://otonly.com/x0311/spent%20fuel%20diagram.jpg

http://otonly.com/x0311/spent%20fuel%20pool.jpg

Particle Man

03-16-2011, 10:00 PM

The containment vessel is still there. Its the pools that keep the spent rods in the higher levels of the containment building that are comprimised. Right now they are continuously using helicopters to dump water on them.
I For some reason I thought the spent rods weren't in containment vessels.

tallywacker

03-16-2011, 10:03 PM

I For some reason I thought the spent rods weren't in containment vessels.

You drunk man?

Particle Man

03-16-2011, 10:06 PM

You drunk man?

I wish.

Can't think - still sick.

tallywacker

03-16-2011, 10:20 PM

SDF begins efforts to cool down nuclear plant

Two helicopters from Japan's Self-Defense Forces are dropping water on the Number Three building at the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The helicopters began dousing the damaged reactor-housing building at 9:48 AM on Thursday.

The SDF has dispatched two CH-47 helicopters equipped with a device for dropping 7.5 tons of water.

They're being accompanied by another helicopter that is measuring radiation levels above the plant. The first water-dropping operation was completed at around 10:15 AM.

Fears of radiation leaks are rising for the plant's two reactors, where water in the pool for spent nuclear fuel is believed to be vaporizing due to the failure of the cooling system.

This could expose the fuel rods, possibly causing them to melt and discharge radioactive material into the air. The government's emergency task force has asked the SDF and the police to cool down the reactor buildings by refilling the pool.

The SDF is also sending 11 high-pressure fire trucks from their bases across Japan to spray water on the reactor buildings.

A high-pressure fire truck from the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department is also set to begin spraying water onto the Number Four reactor building.

Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:34 +0900 (JST)

Water drop update.

Trip

03-16-2011, 10:20 PM

I For some reason I thought the spent rods weren't in containment vessels.

Uh, they are not, like he said. The spent rods are in pools outside of containment.

Tepco is now saying water is still in the spent fuel pool on 4

Crews began aerial water spraying operations from helicopters to cool reactor 3 at Fukushima Daiichi shortly before 9 p.m. EDT on Wednesday, March 16. The operation was planned for the previous day, but was postponed because of high radiation levels at the plant. News sources said temperatures at reactor 3 were rising. Each helicopter is capable of releasing 7.5 tons of water.

Spokesmen for TEPCO and Japan's regulatory agency, Nuclear and Industry Safety Agency, on March 17 Japan time refuted reports that there was a complete loss of cooling water in the used fuel pool at Fukushima Daiichi reactor 4.

The spokesmen said the situation at reactor 4 has changed little during the day today and water remained in the fuel pool. However, both officials said that the reactor had not been inspected in recent hours.

"We can't get inside to check, but we've been carefully watching the building's environs, and there has not been any particular problem," said TEPCO spokesman Hajime Motojuku.

At about 7 p.m. EDT, NISA spokesman Takumi Koyamada said the temperature reading from the used fuel pool on Wednesday was 84 degrees Celsius and that no change had been reported since then. Typically, used uranium fuel rods are stored in deep water pools at temperatures of about 30 degrees Celsius.

Recent radiation levels measured at the boundary of the Fukushima Daiichi plant have been dropping steadily over the past 12 hours, Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said on Wednesday night (U.S. time).

At 4 a.m. EDT on Wednesday, a radiation level of 75 millirem per hour was recorded at the plant's main gate. At 4 p.m. EDT, the reading at one plant site gate was 34 millirem per hour. By comparison, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's annual radiation dose limit for the public is 100 millirem. Radiation readings are being taken every 30 minutes.

Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary, Yukio Edano, said earlier today a radiation level of 33 millirem per hour was measured about 20 kilometers from the Fukushima Daiichi plant earlier this morning. He said that level does not pose an immediate health risk.

Edano said that TEPCO has resumed efforts to spray water into the used fuel pool at the damaged reactor 4.

TEPCO also continues efforts to restore offsite power to the plant, with up to 40 workers seeking to restore electricity to essential plant systems by Thursday morning, March 17.

tallywacker

03-16-2011, 10:24 PM

Uh, they are not, like he said. The spent rods are in pools outside of containment.

Tepco is now saying water is still in the spent fuel pool on 4

That's old, its Thursday morning in Japan.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

Live press conference coming on there streaming from the defense minister in the next few minutes.

tallywacker

03-16-2011, 10:27 PM

Its starting now

Particle Man

03-16-2011, 10:31 PM

Uh, they are not, like he said. The spent rods are in pools outside of containment.

so I'm NOT freaking nuts.

I just can't seem to string two coherant thoughts together.

My intent is to say "Shit, the stuff that's on fire is outside of the containment vessle which is bad" but it apparently didn't come out that way.

I hate the flu.

Trip

03-16-2011, 10:32 PM

That's old, its Thursday morning in Japan.

You should learn to read, look at the time zone...

I suggest these sources over TV.

http://nei.cachefly.net/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/

Trip

03-16-2011, 10:46 PM

tallywacker

03-16-2011, 10:47 PM

You should learn to read, look at the time zone...

I suggest these sources over TV.

http://nei.cachefly.net/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/

Yeah i see that.

Particle Man

03-16-2011, 10:48 PM

Trip

03-16-2011, 10:58 PM

Being broke > being dead

I really couldn't imagine some of those line crews over in japan though. They might have gotten along good with the japs though. They both have exreme sexual creativity in a disgusting direction.

derf

03-17-2011, 12:05 AM

They should of flown in some of the big country IBEW boys to rebuild the lines to the plant. Those fuckers would of been done 24 hours. They can run some lines in an emergency. Of course they would of costed a mint, the Japs may have not liked that part of it.

Whats an IBEW? I'm guessing some kind of specialist worker?

Being broke > being dead

Chance of fixing the problem for cheap > calling in others that cost $$$

Particle Man

03-17-2011, 06:19 AM

Whats an IBEW? I'm guessing some kind of specialist worker?

International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers..

Gas Man

03-17-2011, 08:46 AM

In typical Japanese fashion...erogense (sp?) is their biggest problem. Now it's a should of, would of, could of.

derf

03-17-2011, 09:01 AM

Ok so air dropping water? To me (i am not a nuclear scientist) doesnt seem like it will be all that effective. Won't the water dissipate by the time it hits the reactor?

Trip

03-17-2011, 09:06 AM

Ok so air dropping water? To me (i am not a nuclear scientist) doesnt seem like it will be all that effective. Won't the water dissipate by the time it hits the reactor?

It's not, have you seen the videos? It's not doing shit.

To make a real difference, they need to get offsite power and get those pumps running again.

KSGregman

03-17-2011, 09:25 AM

Dumping water on an overheated nuclear reactor with a compromised container vessel WILL do SOMETHING....it will likely get everyone aboard those helicopters a lethal dose of radiation and will ensure everyone of those helicopters get thrown into the Marianas Trench when this is over.

Trip

03-17-2011, 10:00 AM

tallywacker

03-17-2011, 11:32 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXqiw6EJUk

KSGregman

03-17-2011, 11:32 AM

true, lol

This TEPCO guy is the Iraqi Tank Man all over again. I wonder if they are related.

It's a suicide mission...the Russians did it at Chernobyl....and the people aboard the helicopters were dead to the last man. Except I think the Russians were dropping sand rather than water.

Trip

03-17-2011, 11:36 AM

It's a suicide mission...the Russians did it at Chernobyl....and the people aboard the helicopters were dead to the last man. Except I think the Russians were dropping sand rather than water.

Chernobyl didn't use water as a moderator, they used graphite. So water wasn't as important for that reactor. Didn't really matter, the reactor was blown across the country side.

goof2

03-17-2011, 11:41 AM

It's a suicide mission...the Russians did it at Chernobyl....and the people aboard the helicopters were dead to the last man. Except I think the Russians were dropping sand rather than water.

I think they tried both water and earth. Here is were those vehicles lie today.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?6742-Chernobyl-vehicle-graveyard

I foresee a similar vehicle graveyard in Japan's future.

Trip

03-17-2011, 02:02 PM

Conditions may be improving. Hope this is the direction this accident keeps going in.

UPDATE AS OF 1:30 P.M. EDT, THURSDAY, MARCH 17:

Radiation readings at the Fukushima Daiichi site boundary were measured today at a lower level, between 2 and 3 millirem per hour.

UPDATE AS OF 11:35 A.M. EDT, THURSDAY, MARCH 17:

Fukushima Daiichi

The reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi plant are in stable condition and are being cooled with seawater, but workers at the plant continue efforts to add cooling water to fuel pools at reactors 3 and 4.

The status of the reactors at the site is as follows:

Reactor 1's primary containment is believed to be intact and the reactor is in a stable condition. Seawater injection into the reactor is continuing.

Reactor 2 is in stable condition with seawater injection continuing. The reactor's primary containment may not have been breached, Tokyo Electric Power Co. and World Association of Nuclear Operators officials said on Thursday.

Access problems at the site have delayed connection of a temporary cable to restore off-site electricity. The connection will provide power to the control rod drive pump, instrumentation, batteries and the control room. Power has not been available at the site since the earthquake on March 11.

Reactor 3 is in stable condition with seawater injection continuing. The primary containment is believed to be intact. Pressure in the containment has fluctuated due to venting of the reactor containment structure.

TEPCO officials say that although one side of the concrete wall of the reactor 4 fuel pool structure has collapsed, the steel liner of the pool remains intact, based on aerial photos of the reactor taken on March 17. The pool still has water providing some cooling for the fuel; however, helicopters dropped water on the reactor four times during the morning (Japan time) on March 17. Water also was sprayed at reactor 4 using high-pressure water cannons. Reactors 5 and 6 were both shut down before the quake occurred. Primary and secondary containments are intact at both reactors. Temperature instruments in the spent fuel pools at reactors 5 and 6 are operational, and temperatures are being maintained at about 62 degrees Celsius. TEPCO is continuing efforts to restore power at reactor 5.

Fukushima Daini

All four reactors at the Fukushima Daini plant have reached cold shutdown conditions with normal cooling being maintained using residual heat removal systems.

I have also seen readings of 65 psig inside unit 2 containment which could prove to be an indication it hasn't been breached.

derf

03-17-2011, 06:17 PM

Papa_Complex

03-17-2011, 07:30 PM

As I understand it, they had exactly that. It was already hooked up to a set of super industrial sized generators, that got trashed in the tsunami. What you're talking about is just too big for it to be trucked in at a whim, even if the roads and infrastructure was still intact (which it wasn't), except maybe in a Godzilla movie.

Trip

03-17-2011, 07:59 PM

Hey I have another dumb question, keeping in mind that I'm not a nuclear scientist or anything like that, but if the big problem was running electrical lines, why isnt there a set of ready to hook up lines buried somewhere, where they can pull a couple of super industrial sized generators right up there and hook up, start running power, and go from there?

I mean I know that they cant fix every problem that may ever occur, but that kinda seems obvious.

These are high voltage power lines. 161kV+

They did bring in mobile diesel generators, it's just they don't supply enough amperage to run much and eat fuel like a mother fucker.

One 161kV line can power a fuck load of shit and requires no refueling onsite. The grid will keep the juice flowing and they can focus on stabilizing the plant instead of worrying about getting fuel out there.

As I understand it, they had exactly that. It was already hooked up to a set of super industrial sized generators, that got trashed in the tsunami. What you're talking about is just too big for it to be trucked in at a whim, even if the roads and infrastructure was still intact (which it wasn't), except maybe in a Godzilla movie.

Those are the emergency diesel generators. They are there to allow time to restore offsite power. You don't want to run on only them if you can help it. They are there to buy you time to restore offsite power.

Tsunami took them out. They were designed to survive a Tsunami a few meters lower.

Trip

03-17-2011, 08:04 PM

By the way, they got power to Units 5-6. They were able to get a diesel up and running and looks like power will be on at 2 soon.

Status of Fukushima plants

In Japan, engineers have laid a power line that can connect reactor 2 of the Daiichi facility to the off-site power grid, the International Atomic Energy Agency reported. Workers are working to reconnect the power to reactor 2 after they complete spraying water into the reactor 3 complex to provide additional cooling to the used fuel pool. Reconnecting to the power grid is expected to enhance efforts to prevent further damage at the plant.

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency reported on Thursday that the backup diesel generator for reactor 6 is working and supplying electricity to reactors 5 and 6. TEPCO is preparing to add water to the storage pools that house used nuclear fuel rods at those two reactors.

goof2

03-17-2011, 11:32 PM

These are high voltage power lines. 161kV+

They did bring in mobile diesel generators, it's just they don't supply enough amperage to run much and eat fuel like a mother fucker.

One 161kV line can power a fuck load of shit and requires no refueling onsite. The grid will keep the juice flowing and they can focus on stabilizing the plant instead of worrying about getting fuel out there.

Those are the emergency diesel generators. They are there to allow time to restore offsite power. You don't want to run on only them if you can help it. They are there to buy you time to restore offsite power.

Tsunami took them out. They were designed to survive a Tsunami a few meters lower.

As I understand it their most urgent need for power has been to run the pumps to get cooling water to the reactor cores. That being the case, is there anything in their electrical system that demands that kind of unique power or is it just done for more efficiency? Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but
if it were possible to use some more common generators it could have saved a whole lot of headaches. I'm not talking about something from the local Home Depot, but we do have a ton of military over there. I suspect they have some pretty powerful generators along with the helicopters to put them wherever they want.

Trip

03-18-2011, 12:15 AM

As I understand it their most urgent need for power has been to run the pumps to get cooling water to the reactor cores. That being the case, is there anything in their electrical system that demands that kind of unique power or is it just done for more efficiency? Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but
if it were possible to use some more common generators it could have saved a whole lot of headaches. I'm not talking about something from the local Home Depot, but we do have a ton of military over there. I suspect they have some pretty powerful generators along with the helicopters to put them wherever they want.

Yeah, we can truck in mobile diesel generators. They may just not had ones close enough to hook up that would be worth a damn.

tallywacker

03-18-2011, 12:18 AM

Yeah the generators they need were the connex contained diesel engine type like CAT makes and other companies, they would need to be trucked in. Glad to hear good news.

derf

03-20-2011, 05:39 PM

good infographic about radiation

http://betacache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/8/2011/03/xlarge_xkcd.jpg

EpyonXero

03-21-2011, 01:57 PM

New video. Pretty intense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct9GEaWAmJg&feature=player_embedded

Papa_Complex

03-21-2011, 02:14 PM

This one looks like a serious brown trousers issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bkNgXX17TY&feature=player_embedded#at=40

OneSickPsycho

03-21-2011, 02:27 PM

Worst fucking cameraman in the history of the world.

CasterTroy

03-21-2011, 02:39 PM

Worst fucking cameraman in the history of the world.

Doubt he was going for an Academy Award for Best Cinematography :nee:

OneSickPsycho

03-21-2011, 03:20 PM

Doubt he was going for an Academy Award for Best Cinematography :nee:

How about, not zooming all over the place and swinging the camera around over his head and making me want to vomit?

derf

03-22-2011, 06:28 PM

A new photo of the reactor that will be spawning its own line of Godzillas pretty soon

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2011/03/reactor4-water.jpg

derf

03-22-2011, 07:37 PM

http://usridernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/japanese-harley.jpg

http://usridernews.com/2011/03/22/motorcycle-dedication/

A Japanese man recovers his classic 1950s Harley Davidson motorcycle, which was washed away with his home in the earthquake and tsunami destroyed town of Onagawa, Miyagi Prefecture, northeastern Japan Sunday, March 20, 2011. (AP Photo/David Guttenfelder)

Particle Man

03-22-2011, 09:03 PM

http://usridernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/japanese-harley.jpg

http://usridernews.com/2011/03/22/motorcycle-dedication/

That is one of the saddest things I've ever seen :(

Trip

03-22-2011, 09:27 PM

That is one of the saddest things I've ever seen :(

No kidding, what a terrible choice in two wheels when you have so much access to Jap bikes that aren't available in the states.

Particle Man

03-22-2011, 09:31 PM

No kidding, what a terrible choice in two wheels when you have so much access to Jap bikes that aren't available in the states.

:D

derf

03-22-2011, 10:12 PM

No kidding, what a terrible choice in two wheels when you have so much access to Jap bikes that aren't available in the states.

So much sadnesss! :eek:

Gas Man

03-22-2011, 11:17 PM

Epic! So many emotions in that picture!

Gas Man

03-23-2011, 01:37 PM

HD pledges $250K to the cause....
http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/LATEST+NEWS/Harley-Davidson-pledges-250K-to-American-Red-Cross/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/712963?ref=25

Sixxxxer

03-23-2011, 03:42 PM

My company has Donated 50k To red cross

the chi

03-23-2011, 04:07 PM

Maybe HD will take pity on that poor guy and take care of getting his bike fixed back up. That would be pretty classy.

derf

03-23-2011, 05:54 PM

Maybe HD will take pity on that poor guy and take care of getting his bike fixed back up. That would be pretty classy.

Or if the guy is reallly lucky, honda

Homeslice

03-23-2011, 06:10 PM

No kidding, what a terrible choice in two wheels when you have so much access to Jap bikes that aren't available in the states.

It's because everyone poo-poos the vehicles of their home country.

Gas Man

03-23-2011, 10:53 PM

Or if the guy is reallly lucky, honda
Funny thing is... there is a huge HD culture in japan

derf

04-12-2011, 08:07 AM

derf

04-12-2011, 09:40 AM

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interactive/2011/04/world/gallery.japan.aftermath/images/lg.hrzgal.18.gi.jpg

WEEEEEEEEEE

fasternyou929

04-12-2011, 10:05 AM

Japan is almost as bad as chernobyl. Since that last aftershock the nuke disaster has been upgraded to chernobyl bad assery. In other news Nancy Grace will be letting us know that the east coast will be irradiated by next week.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/12_05.html

That's awful. :( I wonder just how large an area will be affected; I only had time to glance thorugh the article and saw "a large area" called out. Has anybody read predictions for the impact to sea life in the Pacific? I have no idea what the ocean currents are over there.