ATF Running Guns

[nhgunnut]

Is it annoying anyone besides me that most of the Liberal Press ( Not CBS) Is ignoring the fact that the ATF allowed thousand of guns into the hands of Mexican Drug Cartel buyers and strong armed honest dealer into sell to these clowns.
Now Holder seems to be trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug.
PLease write your congressman and call for a Special Prosecutor
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20039204-10391695.html?tag=mncol;lst;9

[pauldun170]

Is it annoying anyone besides me that most of the Liberal Press ( Not CBS) Is ignoring the fact that the ATF allowed thousand of guns into the hands of Mexican Drug Cartel buyers and strong armed honest dealer into sell to these clowns.
Now Holder seems to be trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug.
PLease write your congressman and call for a Special Prosecutor
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20039204-10391695.html?tag=mncol;lst;9

What do you propose as an alternative to gathering information on gun trafficking?

I also do not see anything about "thousand of guns".

So far the level of outrage doesn't quite match up to info provided.

[nhgunnut]

What do you propose as an alternative to gathering information on gun trafficking?

I also do not see anything about "thousand of guns".

So far the level of outrage doesn't quite match up to info provided. read the follow up stories CBS is reporting "Thousand" of guns. Also they a demanded that legitimate dealers allow the SAME buyer to purchase Ak's in lots repeatedly. So ATF knew the buyers and supply chain and could have rolled it up at any moment. One of these Guns killed a a ICE agent. I If you like Fox has a couple of stories as well. Additionally CBS published that the ATF issued after they knew CBS was going to publish (See the CBS site for the follow ups) Calling on agents to get any positive publicity it could for the agency.
This really does appear that Holder is doing his best to cover this up. Mexico's Senate has issued a Statement stating it had no idea that ATF was "Walking Guns into Mexico" There is a Mexican Senator calling for an international investigation. We are seeing none of this in our Media.
I am not usually a Conspiracy Theorist but I guess when Hillary Clinton said American Guns were fueling Mexican Crime she may have known the name of the person who ordered the guns go to Mexico!

[pauldun170]

read the follow up stories CBS is reporting "Thousand" of guns. Also they a demanded that legitimate dealers allow the SAME buyer to purchase Ak's in lots repeatedly. So ATF knew the buyers and supply chain and could have rolled it up at any moment. One of these Guns killed a a ICE agent. I If you like Fox has a couple of stories as well. Additionally CBS published that the ATF issued after they knew CBS was going to publish (See the CBS site for the follow ups) Calling on agents to get any positive publicity it could for the agency.
This really does appear that Holder is doing his best to cover this up. Mexico's Senate has issued a Statement stating it had no idea that ATF was "Walking Guns into Mexico" There is a Mexican Senator calling for an international investigation. We are seeing none of this in our Media.
I am not usually a Conspiracy Theorist but I guess when Hillary Clinton said American Guns were fueling Mexican Crime she may have known the name of the person who ordered the guns go to Mexico!

Were the guns purchased legally?

[nhgunnut]

Were the guns purchased legally?
They were purchased illealgy under the Strawman Purchasing Laws and the ATF was aware of it. When Dealers were trying to not sell to buyers they knew were in violation of the law, the ATF ordered the sales to go through. Yes the ATF ordered illegal sales, then rather than confiscate the weapons at the border "Walked" them across.
Clearly the ATF violated American Laws and it resulted in the Death of an American Law Enforcement office. Not to mention countless Citizens of Mexico.
Again since the supply chain was well established the buyers identified and easily arrested had those chosen to, it appears the only purpose of the actions was to Prove American Guns were at the Heart of Mexican violence. The guns were in Mexico because the ATF Ordered them to me there!

[pauldun170]

interesting read
http://www.publicintegrity.org/articles/entry/2976/

[pauldun170]

They were purchased illealgy under the Strawman Purchasing Laws and the ATF was aware of it. When Dealers were trying to not sell to buyers they knew were in violation of the law, the ATF ordered the sales to go through. Yes the ATF ordered illegal sales, then rather than confiscate the weapons at the border "Walked" them across.
Clearly the ATF violated American Laws and it resulted in the Death of an American Law Enforcement office. Not to mention countless Citizens of Mexico.
Again since the supply chain was well established the buyers identified and easily arrested had those chosen to, it appears the only purpose of the actions was to Prove American Guns were at the Heart of Mexican violence. The guns were in Mexico because the ATF Ordered them to me there!

By "Strawman purchasing laws" do you mean the Gun Control Act of 1968?

[pauldun170]

How does the Gun Control Act of 1968 apply to international trafficking of arms?

[Homeslice]

How exactly can a gov't agency force a dealer to sell to someone?

BTW, I would suspect that conservatives would be more likely to cover up a story like this than liberals would. Conservatives are the ones who always stick up for law enforcement.

[nhgunnut]

How does the Gun Control Act of 1968 apply to international trafficking of arms?
It is not the gun control act of 1968 is the 1988 law that make it a federal crime to procure a firearm for a person who could not otherwise purchase one legally.
The language was strengthened in 94 to the effect that the 4473 says you are the end user of the firearm. Meaning you can not under that law buy a firearm as a gift. ( as Sarah Brady did)
Since the the arms were known by the ATF to bound for Mexico and the ATF ordered multiple sales by the same straw man buyer it can't even be argued that this was an investigative tool.
A Federal Law Enforcement Agency (ATF)ordered that firearms be sold into a network of felons. In short they knowingly facilitated Multiple Felonies that resulted in the Death of a ICE Agent. As well as countless deaths of Mexican Citizens. SO Mr Holder appears to have no trouble facilitating the deaths of Mexicans in Mexico but has a problem when a Arizona Policeman ask to see ID .
As my screen name suggests I enjoy firearms. I am very very careful to to stay within the law at all times. When I filed a form 4 I pretty much gave permission to the ATF to come to my residence and inventory all of my firearms. If I as a citizen or agent of a licensed firearms dealer arranged even on straw man purchase I would eligible for a 15 year mandatory and have opened myself up to ever sort of Civil liability.
Keep in mind when I say this as a rule when I have dealt with the ATF agents they have been kind courteous and professional. More importantly it was an individual ATF Agent that blew the whistle on this horror.
But someone appears to have been using a Federal Agency for political reasons and has gotten a lot of people killed doing so.
Call for a Special Prosecutor make a prove it's all false or Lock some of these callous assholes hiding behind a Federal Desk UP
Again what annoys me is the fact that no one appears to be paying attention to this. It has been reported on briefly by Media at both Ends of the political spectrum CBS and Fox the main stream is ignoring it.

[goof2]

How exactly can a gov't agency force a dealer to sell to someone?

BTW, I would suspect that conservatives would be more likely to cover up a story like this than liberals would. Conservatives are the ones who always stick up for law enforcement.

Administrations covering their asses isn't a conservative or liberal trait, it is a government trait.

[nhgunnut]

Administrations covering their asses isn't a conservative or liberal trait, it is a government trait.
Agreed! For clarity sake it appears that on a much smaller scale of this operation where the guns we stopped at the border began in the last year of the Bush administration.
Again based on what is being presented by both ends of the Media it appears that under our current administration, the ATF allowed Thousands of guns to be bought Illegally here in the United States, enter Mexico, where all ability to trace them was lost (again no investigative value) and in one case the weapon re entered the US where is was used to Kill an ICE agent.
There needs to be a Special Prosecutor, because Holder is ultimately the Chief of the ATF.

[Papa_Complex]

Funny, but I don't tend to see this sort of outrage when police permit drugs to pass on down the line, so that they can track the flow and determine everyone who is involved in trafficking.

[nhgunnut]

Funny, but I don't tend to see this sort of outrage when police permit drugs to pass on down the line, so that they can track the flow and determine everyone who is involved in trafficking.
While I agree, that we here in States have a VERY Hypocritical view of drug culture, (Hell we are the only country on the planet to turn Drug running into a Competitive "Sport" NASCAR)
The Issue for me is two fold. First as a member of the fire arms community that enjoys building fire arms as well as shooting sport. I will say that we have been routinely vilified by this administration. They have been been very vocal in calling for more regulation, (yesterday they called for more in depth background checks citing the shootings in Arizona, completely ignoring the fact that ATF had instructed J&G of AZ sales to sell lots of 10 AKs at time to on 6 occasions to the same known cartel buyers). While they completely ignore the ones they have.
The other outrage and the one that is most infuriating is that Holder is not being held Accountable. This is rather like asking John Mitchel to investigate the Watergate Break In. Holder is the over all Chief of the Agency that apparently Committed these crimes.
Again I say appoint a Special Prosecutor, lets get a thorough investigation from someone outside of the Justice Department and the Current Administration to look this over.
The actions of whoever came up with the plan to let thousands of guns cross the border into Mexico has gotten people killed on both sides of the border.
I can not imagine how the US/Canadian Press would be treating this if these weapons had been allowed into Canada.

[Papa_Complex]

Breaking News: Guns have been getting into Canada, illegally, and killing people for decades.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/03/11/13190976-torsun.html

[nhgunnut]

Breaking News: Guns have been getting into Canada, illegally, and killing people for decades.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/03/11/13190976-torsun.html
Not breaking news, The ATF routinely sends alerts to shops in the along the Canadian Border with who and what they might be trying to buy to licensed dealers. It is routine for a dealer to be told when doing a background check not to allow a sale to go through if it is even hinted the the end user is Canadian. Also the press here in the US and Canada does a great job of pointing out when it happens. Oh and for the record the US sucks at reporting it when a gun Originating in Canada is used in a crime here in the US. (in the northeast about 1 in every 7500 crime guns) Again regardless of what side of the Gun Argument you are on, the Primary Agency here in the US responsible for keeping the Guns out of the hands of criminals Facilitated the MASS sale of Kalashnikov's AR 15's and assorted handguns to drug gangs. (These were not weapons tagged with GPS so that they could be traced or in any manner controlled) When the the firearms dealers tried to stop the sales they were told to let sales go through. Papa what would you be saying if the ATF ordered that Gun Dealer sell Canadian Gangs hundreds of what is routinely characterized as Assault Rifles and hundreds of Handguns told Us Border Agents to allow the weapons to cross in to Canada and never informed any Canadian Law Enforcement.

[Papa_Complex]

Not breaking news,

It was sarcasm ;)

[nhgunnut]

It was sarcasm ;)
I know, it was sarcasm, but it raises a a point well worth illustrating.
If this had gone on with US Law enforcement Agency actively allowing Canadian Criminals to import a thousand illegal guns into Canada Citizens on both sides of the border would be outraged, as they should be.
Where is that outrage in this situation? Are Mexican Lives worth less than Canadian or US lives.
Why are US citizens allowing the Ultimate Chief of the Agency that did this to head the investigation?
Again whether you are a Total Gun Control Believer or an Advocate for Second Amendment Rights what was done was Un-conscienceable!
Allowing the Chief of the Agency that did it and expecting anything like an unbiased result is silly, There needs to be Special Prosecutor

[Papa_Complex]

I know, it was sarcasm, but it raises a a point well worth illustrating.
If this had gone on with US Law enforcement Agency actively allowing Canadian Criminals to import a thousand illegal guns into Canada Citizens on both sides of the border would be outraged, as they should be.
Where is that outrage in this situation? Are Mexican Lives worth less than Canadian or US lives.
Why are US citizens allowing the Ultimate Chief of the Agency that did this to head the investigation?
Again whether you are a Total Gun Control Believer or an Advocate for Second Amendment Rights what was done was Un-conscienceable!
Allowing the Chief of the Agency that did it and expecting anything like an unbiased result is silly, There needs to be Special Prosecutor

And another question: How do you know where the guns are going, if you don't let them get there?

The same sort of tactic is used in tracking shipments of hard drugs. I ask again, why no outrage? While they may not kill someone with the obvious finality and immediacy of a bullet, they still kill.

[Homeslice]

Again, how can a gov't agency force a store/dealer to do business with someone? Not saying it can't happen, but..... Please describe the scenario.

[nhgunnut]

Again, how can a gov't agency force a store/dealer to do business with someone? Not saying it can't happen, but..... Please describe the scenario.
In the ATF's case they imply that they will can be there to Audit your books, raise a question about one of your sales, and inform you that that the investigation can take upward of 12 months to complete. You can be told that your class 7 licence to manufacture may not be renewed or that all the inventory you have inbound is suspect and will have to be held at a bonded warehouse until it can be cleared.
The can also when you do a call in background check (as all dealer have to do) order you to complete the sale. Despite the fact that you raise objections,
but also please understand we are not just talking about store front gun shops. J&G is a licensed wholesaler with a good national reputation. CBS also report they used stings and payoffs to to get criminal informants to facilitate these sales.
Again in my experience the Individual ATF Agent are professional and have never been capricious in there decisions but this agency answers to no one they are the IRS of the gun world here in the states and can crush you.

[Papa_Complex]

Can.

Did?

[nhgunnut]

And another question: How do you know where the guns are going, if you don't let them get there?

The same sort of tactic is used in tracking shipments of hard drugs. I ask again, why no outrage? While they may not kill someone with the obvious finality and immediacy of a bullet, they still kill.

As far as drugs go, Agreed and I have no answer beyond the US is in particular are a Drug Using Culture.
As far as tracking the guns form source to end user holds up for the first 10 guns perhaps , but when the same buyers are allowed to Purchase 60 AKs They knew who purchased them they knew where the guns were going, and they admit that once the weapons crossed the border they had know way of tracing them.
This really does to me appear to be an attempt to make a political point using the live of Mexican Citizens, ie American guns are being used in Mexican Drug Violence.
They proved the statement by making sure Mexican Drug Gangs could get the Guns from the US rather than getting them from Central America which had been the choice in the past.

[pauldun170]

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S2018691.shtml?cat=504

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/11/us-usa-mexico-guns-idUSTRE72A0BR20110311?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/feds_indict_mayor_police_chief_of_border_town_as_a tf_gunrunner_program_faces_heat.php?utm_source=fee dburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TPMmuckraker+%28TPMmuckraker% 29

[pauldun170]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-mayor-police-chief-charged-with-smuggling-guns-to-mexico/2011/03/11/ABMGgSR_story.html

[pauldun170]

I really hope this bust isn't the result of Project Gunrunner because then it would kind of take the fun out of this thread.

[nhgunnut]

I really hope this bust isn't the result of Project Gunrunner because then it would kind of take the fun out of this thread.

I don't know if the New Mexico bust was the result but it is irrelevant to who investigates this distaster.