View Full Version : Beginner's Advice Pt. II
Phenix_Rider
07-05-2008, 11:47 PM
Apparently, I've been spending too much time on riderforums, and all the other noob/squid hangouts on teh netz. The rash of morons trading up after a few thousand miles of stupid posts and blowing half again what the bike is worth in mods is wearing extremely thin. Maybe someone would like to sticky this over here, if so, great.
:rant:
Too many people are pissing around with pretty mods (stickers, paint, cowls, fat tires, deleting fenders, lights, custom fairings) and silly "power" mods (exhaust, PCIII, clutch and lighter chain) instead of learning not to drop it in the driveway.
I realize this isn't a popular position, but get out and ride the damn thing! Put as many miles on as you can instead of washing it and posing and doing burnouts. Get some sticky tires and race plastics and hit the track so you can learn what it will really do, instead of worrying about some car passing you on the interstate, or a cruiser with monster pistons beating you off a light. Find some empty backroads if you can't go to the track. Don't get pissed when you get a ticket though. Cops are only doing their job- your attitude makes things harder on you.
If you're making payments on a bike, at least wait till it's paid off to think about getting a bigger, faster one!
No you have not reached the limits of the bike in 5,000 miles and a (whole entire) year of riding on the street, I don't care if you're 18 or 80. Not unless you race every weekend are you going to plumb the limits of a 650's power or handling. The software -YOU, the rider- needs upgraded long before the hardware (the bike, it's engine, suspension, brakes, etc.) Books will go a long way in building your personal database, but there's no replacement for experience. NO, watching Biker Boyz, Torque, and stunt videos will not make you a better rider. Neither will scuffing your kneepucks to look good in the bike hangout. You know what? Try avoiding the hangout! Some schmuck bragging about his scars doesn't give you anything useful. A garage party doing suspension or valve adjustments is a lot more fruitful.
Your gear is the second most important thing you can spend money on. The first is rider training. An MSF or equivalent course will instruct you on basic low speed handling and traffic positioning- ensuring that you don't get hit because you were riding in a cage's blindspot, or drop your bike in a parking lot or intersection and look like a fool. A dozen tankfuls of fuel will make you a hundred times faster and smoother than new levers, stainless brake lines, or a louder exhaust. Gear keeps you from becoming an asphalt crayon when you dick up- and you will. Motorcycles tend to let you know when you make a bad input. How hard you hit, and how much skin you lose is really the only thing that changes.
Ride everything you can. You'll probably decide your bike is perfect for you. If not, you'll eventually find one that is. That's what demo days are for. There's nothing like putting hundreds of miles on someone else's bikes. You find what you like in an engine style and displacement, and what makes a bike unrideable- for you- others may love it. Talk to everyone you can at the demo- they will have ridden bikes you haven't. They will also have different impressions of bikes you just rode.
:rant:
What demo days lets you put hundreds of miles on their bikes?
azoomm
07-06-2008, 10:45 AM
Thank you. That probably needs to be said more often than it is...
anyexcuse2ride
07-06-2008, 11:11 AM
I wish I would have put my money in my suspension first, Now I am scrambling to get that done. I understand your rant and wish I did things differently than what I did. Its all a learning experience and some learn and some dont.
What demo days lets you put hundreds of miles on their bikes?
I would like to demo some and go to the track:rockout: show up in the morning and ask for a demo and start taping it up and see what they say:whistle:
Its all a learning experience and some learn and some dont.
Exactly.
itgirl
07-06-2008, 08:08 PM
riding is definately an ongoing learning experience. knowledge is power. however, i also don't see anything wrong with giving your bike a personal touch. not everyone buys these bikes with the desire to be a faster rider. some just want the freedom of the open road and the chance to love a shiny, two-wheeled machine. oops, now my harley roots are showing. :lol:
Phenix_Rider
07-07-2008, 07:11 AM
What demo days lets you put hundreds of miles on their bikes?
If you ride enough of them, it adds up. 30 miles per bike x 6 bikes... I went to Thunder in the Valley and did nothing but ride demos all day. I could have fit in a few more rides if I got there earlier.
Phenix_Rider
07-07-2008, 07:33 AM
riding is definately an ongoing learning experience. knowledge is power. however, i also don't see anything wrong with giving your bike a personal touch. not everyone buys these bikes with the desire to be a faster rider. some just want the freedom of the open road and the chance to love a shiny, two-wheeled machine. oops, now my harley roots are showing. :lol:
meh. My issue is with noobs that immediately throw on an exhaust and rip out the sub throttle plates and add blingy grips and three different types of handlebars and a colored windscreen and fender eliminator and colored turn signals before they do the first oil change. The same ones that can't figure out why there's no dipstick and can't find the master cylinder sight hole and drop their bike on both sides before they've had it a month. People that can't budget money for proper gear or insurance, yet find money for the exhaust and rim stripes they "need."
:sorry: But I'm beginning to understand why some riders have such an elitist view. When I hear of someone that got outrun on the freeway, or outlaunched by a bike making twice the torque in town, so they have to get a "better bike to save face." These supposed adults that fail to make the simplest financial decisions and then bitch when they get caught with lapsed insurance or no registration, or an expired license when they get hit or hit someone else.
OneSickPsycho
07-07-2008, 09:15 AM
The best thing you could ever buy for your bike... Gas.
The 650 in stock config is very easy to outride even as just a sometimes track rider. The suspension is utter crap, the power on the straights isn't very good. To get either of these things up to par with a bike you want as a normal track rider, you have to drop some serious cash into it that will put you over the purchase cost of a 600. Personally, I wouldn't make a blanket statement that you need to be a racer to outride a stock 650. Especially in the suspension dept. A properly tuned suspension is one of the best performance mods for comfort and ridability of the bike and is very beneficial to a noobs confidence when riding the bike. Riding a bike setup for a 150 lbs person when you are 250+ lbs is not fun or will give you much confidence in your handling.
Rider
07-07-2008, 09:59 AM
I'm only doing cosmetic mods to my bike right now. It has more power stock than I could ever use on the street. Sure ,I could spend a couple grand in bolt on mods, but the only thing that will get me is more speeding tickets. I may eventually start small with a BMC filter and some velocity stacks, then maybe a PCIII down the road. Full exhaust sytems are claiming 14rwhp gains... I dont need that........yet. :dthumb:
Phenix_Rider
07-07-2008, 09:46 PM
Especially in the suspension dept. A properly tuned suspension is one of the best performance mods for comfort and ridability of the bike and is very beneficial to a noobs confidence when riding the bike. Riding a bike setup for a 150 lbs person when you are 250+ lbs is not fun or will give you much confidence in your handling.
Everything I've read says that unless you're content to have a pro set it once and leave it that way, fiddling with suspension is only going to make things worse. Makes sense to me. If you're blaming the suspension for the rear/front end getting loose, or the back coming up too fast on the brakes, or your feet/ pegs grinding, you're not paying attention to body position, grip strength, or how much weight you have on the bars.
I'm sure Lee Parks, Nick Ianetsche, and all the others each said it their own way: "upgrade the software before the hardware." Meaning, a new rider simply doesn't know enough to deal with the basic inputs he's getting. He needs to bank more to the experience account before he spends the little he has on dealing with new hardware.
That said, most of the good beginner bikes have non-adjustable (or very limited adjustment) suspension. I can see upgrading it after a few track days, or a lot of street miles, but it's just not an immediate mod. Plus, a proper suspension upgrade is worth a lot more than a shiny exhaust right off the showroom floor.
It wouldn't take terribly much money to get a good suspension either. (less than an exhaust and hugger and fender eliminator) As a quick example, I can throw a Penske rear shock on my 650R for $750, and Racetech springs and emulators for $220. The 650R retails for $6,499, while the ZX6R is $9,099. A $2,500 difference. A 650 will never be in the same class as a SuperSport 600, no matter what you do to it.
I'm only doing cosmetic mods to my bike right now. It has more power stock than I could ever use on the street. Sure ,I could spend a couple grand in bolt on mods, but the only thing that will get me is more speeding tickets. I may eventually start small with a BMC filter and some velocity stacks, then maybe a PCIII down the road. Full exhaust sytems are claiming 14rwhp gains... I dont need that........yet. :dthumb:
I don't understand the concept of velocity stacks.
azoomm
07-07-2008, 11:42 PM
:sorry: But I'm beginning to understand why some riders have such an elitist view. When I hear of someone that got outrun on the freeway, or outlaunched by a bike making twice the torque in town, so they have to get a "better bike to save face."
Right. And, the guys at one of my last trackdays learned the hard way it has nothing to do with the equipment they all *upgraded* to when they were all passed by a couple 11-year-olds on 80cc motards. Adults *sigh*
Then there are the HUGE guys on Busas that want to get different wheels because they are 10lbs less. How about take 10lbs off your wide butt first - much cheaper and makes you more healthy in the long run!!
Phenix_Rider
07-08-2008, 07:29 AM
Right. And, the guys at one of my last trackdays learned the hard way it has nothing to do with the equipment they all *upgraded* to when they were all passed by a couple 11-year-olds on 80cc motards. Adults *sigh*
Then there are the HUGE guys on Busas that want to get different wheels because they are 10lbs less. How about take 10lbs off your wide butt first - much cheaper and makes you more healthy in the long run!!
:lol: at 11yo motards and "wide butts."
I agree- forget about carbon fiber wheels and titanium fasteners, if a rider carries an extra 10 lbs, that's several hundred/thousand dollars in weight savings if he can lose it.
Everything I've read says that unless you're content to have a pro set it once and leave it that way, fiddling with suspension is only going to make things worse. Makes sense to me. If you're blaming the suspension for the rear/front end getting loose, or the back coming up too fast on the brakes, or your feet/ pegs grinding, you're not paying attention to body position, grip strength, or how much weight you have on the bars.
I'm sure Lee Parks, Nick Ianetsche, and all the others each said it their own way: "upgrade the software before the hardware." Meaning, a new rider simply doesn't know enough to deal with the basic inputs he's getting. He needs to bank more to the experience account before he spends the little he has on dealing with new hardware.
That said, most of the good beginner bikes have non-adjustable (or very limited adjustment) suspension. I can see upgrading it after a few track days, or a lot of street miles, but it's just not an immediate mod. Plus, a proper suspension upgrade is worth a lot more than a shiny exhaust right off the showroom floor.
It wouldn't take terribly much money to get a good suspension either. (less than an exhaust and hugger and fender eliminator) As a quick example, I can throw a Penske rear shock on my 650R for $750, and Racetech springs and emulators for $220. The 650R retails for $6,499, while the ZX6R is $9,099. A $2,500 difference. A 650 will never be in the same class as a SuperSport 600, no matter what you do to it.
Seriously, get your piece of shit suspension upgraded after you go to the track once with it bottoming the fuck out even when you are in the perfect stance and then when you actually have a decent ride at the track come back and tell me that suspension shouldn't be on the same level as having tires good enough for track use. Riding track is a lot different than fucking off on the street. Having a suspension that is not suitable for you can be just as dangerous as having questionable tires. Not everyone weighs anywhere close to the stock setup and some people need to adjust their suspension immediately before they set rubber on the track. Having hardware that is suitable for track use is very much important to developing the software to ride track.
Having your suspension tuned is one of those things that you didn't realize how bad you needed it until you got it tuned. Same goes with a lot of things on bikes. You didn't realize you needed it until you actualy swap it out or tune it up.
Having your suspension tuned is one of those things that you didn't realize how bad you needed it until you got it tuned. Same goes with a lot of things on bikes. You didn't realize you needed it until you actualy swap it out or tune it up.
Yep, the only people that seem to promote the don't waste your money on suspension immediately idea is the people that have never had suspension setup.
Out of all the money I spent on the SV, pilot powers and everything, putting in the suspension and getting it tuned was the very best thing I ever did to it. It made the bike so much more rideable.
Rider
07-08-2008, 09:27 AM
Having your suspension tuned is one of those things that you didn't realize how bad you needed it until you got it tuned. Same goes with a lot of things on bikes. You didn't realize you needed it until you actualy swap it out or tune it up.
I tuned my own to the setting recommended in Sport Rider magazine. Seems to be pretty sweet. The only thing I didn't do was change the amount of fork tube showing above the triple clamp. SR recommends 10mm. stock is about 4mm and I left it alone. It turns in fast enough. Oh and I left the rear spring preload alone. I dont have the tool to change that and I don't want to fuck it up using the flat head screw driver method I did on my dirt bike.
And to answer you question about velocity stacks, it smooths out the air going in to the intake. See pic below.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8a/Velocity_stack_workings.GIF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack
OneSickPsycho
07-08-2008, 09:51 AM
Everything I've read says that unless you're content to have a pro set it once and leave it that way, fiddling with suspension is only going to make things worse. Makes sense to me. If you're blaming the suspension for the rear/front end getting loose, or the back coming up too fast on the brakes, or your feet/ pegs grinding, you're not paying attention to body position, grip strength, or how much weight you have on the bars.
I'm sure Lee Parks, Nick Ianetsche, and all the others each said it their own way: "upgrade the software before the hardware." Meaning, a new rider simply doesn't know enough to deal with the basic inputs he's getting. He needs to bank more to the experience account before he spends the little he has on dealing with new hardware.
That said, most of the good beginner bikes have non-adjustable (or very limited adjustment) suspension. I can see upgrading it after a few track days, or a lot of street miles, but it's just not an immediate mod. Plus, a proper suspension upgrade is worth a lot more than a shiny exhaust right off the showroom floor.
It wouldn't take terribly much money to get a good suspension either. (less than an exhaust and hugger and fender eliminator) As a quick example, I can throw a Penske rear shock on my 650R for $750, and Racetech springs and emulators for $220. The 650R retails for $6,499, while the ZX6R is $9,099. A $2,500 difference. A 650 will never be in the same class as a SuperSport 600, no matter what you do to it.
There is a balance between retuning your suspension and buying Ohlins shit. Well sorta... Everyone needs their suspension tuned and most everyone will never need Ohlins shit.
Phenix_Rider
07-08-2008, 02:31 PM
Out of all the money I spent on the SV, pilot powers and everything, putting in the suspension and getting it tuned was the very best thing I ever did to it. It made the bike so much more rideable.
Okay, I rode the SV650. That suspension is weak shit. It felt vague and depressing, on the mushy side of all the bikes I've ridden. But fine for the street for a new rider. Anyway, the 650R's suspension is much stiffer, and far less likely to bottom.
I wasn't talking about more experienced riders or riders with several track days completed. I know a racer (CCS) at work that ran SVs. His lap times with fully adjustable upgraded GSXR suspension were barely faster than with the stock SV stuff. And he was winning races.
I'm not saying "don't waste your money on suspension." I am saying It's not a necessity when you don't know what you're doing on the stock equipment.
Okay, I rode the SV650. That suspension is weak shit. It felt vague and depressing, on the mushy side of all the bikes I've ridden. But fine for the street for a new rider. Anyway, the 650R's suspension is much stiffer, and far less likely to bottom.
I wasn't talking about more experienced riders or riders with several track days completed. I know a racer (CCS) at work that ran SVs. His lap times with fully adjustable upgraded GSXR suspension were barely faster than with the stock SV stuff. And he was winning races.
I'm not saying "don't waste your money on suspension." I am saying It's not a necessity when you don't know what you're doing on the stock equipment.
I fully disagree because you never know what the stock or shop or previous owner did in some cases to the stock suspension. I am not about to advise anyone to start riding track on an untuned bike, it should be one of the first things to be checked out and set up for you before you set rubber on a track. It should at least be tuned as closely as it can, because you can get it closer to your need even if you can't get it perfect. It's like going out on tires you don't know the air pressure.
itgirl
07-08-2008, 03:29 PM
i suppose that's why i like fender eliminators and new exhausts. i don't need to be a good rider to use that stuff properly. :)
ceo012384
07-08-2008, 05:53 PM
While I agree with what you're saying in some sense... you've never even done a track day, have you?
Also I think what you're speaking out against is the extreme... absolutely no riding ability and tons of mods... right? I agree with that..
Because I could ride my bike in completely stock form and not reach it's limits for years... does that mean I'm one of the people you're saying you dislike because I've been modding my bike recently?
Your statements are a bit too general, but I think I know what you mean.
It really depends on what you want out of the bike. If you are going down to the local hooters for bike night every thursday and barely riding 2 miles a week and just want the bling, mod the crap out of your bike and be happy. If you are interested in learning to ride, then yeah there are better things you can do with your money. I am not going to tell people what to do with their bike though. I didn't listen to any of this advice and knowing what I know now, I probably still wouldn't listen to any of us because I would do what I wanted to do with my money and my bike.
Dnyce
07-09-2008, 02:12 PM
my money and my bike.
thats the bottom line.
and vice versa, if its not your money, and not your bike, who fucking cares?
dReWpY
07-09-2008, 09:48 PM
plus one for having your suspension tuned, makes a world of difference, well not really im still slow so :idk: :lol: feels much better kudos to wheeler
Phenix_Rider
07-10-2008, 07:52 AM
While I agree with what you're saying in some sense... you've never even done a track day, have you?
Also I think what you're speaking out against is the extreme... absolutely no riding ability and tons of mods... right? I agree with that..
Because I could ride my bike in completely stock form and not reach it's limits for years... does that mean I'm one of the people you're saying you dislike because I've been modding my bike recently?
Your statements are a bit too general, but I think I know what you mean.
I should have my shit together in time for one in august. I've been trying, and slowly building up to it. Just heard back about the back protector I'm getting, should be a week till I have that. Next paycheck is going to track plastics- yes I know they're not necessary, but I trashed my stockers once and I'm not doing that again.
I didn't mean to start a riot- not here anyway :whistle: But you're right, people blowing 5 grand on paint, or making their bike exactly like everyone else's and calling it "unique" pisses me off. The "no riding ability, tons of mods" "rolling art" "catalog custom" people are just lame. Like a Harley I saw today "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"- total bullshit. I've seen that bike out twice this season. At this point, I'm just happy to see a bike that's mostly stock that has obviously done a lot of miles. I've seen real and fake NOS bottles and turbos- on a 650- WTF!? Get a 600 and you get more performance at less cost with more reliability.
You're out riding your bike, and trying to become a better rider- nothing against that. It's what everyone should be doing. A real crash is the perfect reason to make modifications. I'm not against mods to make the bike more rideable or track ready.
I say forget the image shit, let's go play!
I don't understand the concept of velocity stacks.
velocity stacks help tune the rpm of the powerband (short = high, long = low) put some longer stacks in your r6 and you should see a midrange torque bump. in my blade the stockers are long as shit and the #4 is partially blocked by the airbox top soooo, i have a set of shorter factory pro stacks on order in preperation for other planned mods :rockout:
Right. And, the guys at one of my last trackdays learned the hard way it has nothing to do with the equipment they all *upgraded* to when they were all passed by a couple 11-year-olds on 80cc motards. Adults *sigh*
Then there are the HUGE guys on Busas that want to get different wheels because they are 10lbs less. How about take 10lbs off your wide butt first - much cheaper and makes you more healthy in the long run!!
10 lbs off the wheels doesnt equal ten pounds anywhere else, rotating mass increases at speed so those ten pounds saved could effectively equal 50 or more
I should have my shit together in time for one in august. I've been trying, and slowly building up to it. Just heard back about the back protector I'm getting, should be a week till I have that. Next paycheck is going to track plastics- yes I know they're not necessary, but I trashed my stockers once and I'm not doing that again.
I didn't mean to start a riot- not here anyway :whistle: But you're right, people blowing 5 grand on paint, or making their bike exactly like everyone else's and calling it "unique" pisses me off. The "no riding ability, tons of mods" "rolling art" "catalog custom" people are just lame. Like a Harley I saw today "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"- total bullshit. I've seen that bike out twice this season. At this point, I'm just happy to see a bike that's mostly stock that has obviously done a lot of miles. I've seen real and fake NOS bottles and turbos- on a 650- WTF!? Get a 600 and you get more performance at less cost with more reliability.
You're out riding your bike, and trying to become a better rider- nothing against that. It's what everyone should be doing. A real crash is the perfect reason to make modifications. I'm not against mods to make the bike more rideable or track ready.
I say forget the image shit, let's go play!
Remember this, it's not your money and it's not your bike. Maybe people are happy modding their bike over riding it. It's not really your call to tell them they can't and it is a supreme waste of energy to even worry about it.
marko138
07-10-2008, 10:45 AM
Remember this, it's not your money and it's not your bike. Maybe people are happy modding their bike over riding it. It's not really your call to tell them they can't and it is a supreme waste of energy to even worry about it.
I agree with this statement. Who gives a FUCK what other people do?
OneSickPsycho
07-10-2008, 10:50 AM
I agree with this statement. Who gives a FUCK what other people do?
I do. Cause I'm the Douche Police.
marko138
07-10-2008, 10:51 AM
I do. Cause I'm the Douche Police.
I do not give one fuck about anyone else or what they do so long as it doesn't involve me.
I do. Cause I'm the Douche Police.
well it is always fun to make fun of them, but I am not going out of my way to try and teach em. Darwin does that for me.
Phenix_Rider
07-10-2008, 12:37 PM
well it is always fun to make fun of them, but I am not going out of my way to try and teach em. Darwin does that for me.
Well, I gave it a shot. Now I'll cut way back on posting on that forum, because it got really boring.
At least there are good riders over here.:dthumb:
Well, I gave it a shot. Now I'll cut way back on posting on that forum, because it got really boring.
At least there are good riders over here.:dthumb:
LOL, I thought you would of gotten that from TWF. It's useless, I use to be the same way try and convince people to ride properly and wear gear, but I learned quickly it's a losing battle and not worth our time.
Phenix_Rider
07-11-2008, 07:58 AM
LOL, I thought you would of gotten that from TWF. It's useless, I use to be the same way try and convince people to ride properly and wear gear, but I learned quickly it's a losing battle and not worth our time.
hmmmm maybe I'll post it over there and on kawiforums too. Just stir things up and let them stew. Seems like any time VS takes over a forum, the same thing happens. Squids and noobs take over and the regulars leave.
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