Go buy an MV Agusta now....

[Audiomechanic]

Cause soon they're gonna be better than anything else on the planet!!!!!!

http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=12597

[itgirl]

meanwhile harley cuts 700 jobs in america...

[Rider]

There were rumors of HD buying Ducati a year or so ago. :idk: I doubt the quality of the bike with go down. They just want to get there foot in the door with a quality sport bike manufacturer. Could help the development of Buell significantly.

[PiZdETS]

Very smart on Harleys part. Why develop a bespoke, high-quality, boutique sportbike brand when you can just buy one that's already established.
Doubt Harley would influence the design process, probably just retool advertising, marketing,, share dealerships, maybe help a couple new models get through.

[marko138]

Get over it. Harley is not a bad company. Do some research.

[Rider]

Get over it. Harley is not a bad company. Do some research.

Not one post here said they were a bad company....... the haters haven't chimed in.... yet.

[marko138]

Not one post here said they were a bad company....... the haters haven't chimed in.... yet.
I'm getting it in early.

[Audiomechanic]

Very smart on Harleys part. Why develop a bespoke, high-quality, boutique sportbike brand when you can just buy one that's already established.
Doubt Harley would influence the design process, probably just retool advertising, marketing,, share dealerships, maybe help a couple new models get through.

Well put. Things to ponder.

[fpzx10]

Not one post here said they were a bad company....... the haters haven't chimed in.... yet.

The OP was hatin.

And, I agree, Harley puts out good stuff these days (still overpriced) but good nonetheless

[FT BSTRD]

Look at it this way, Buell now has a 100% sportbike oriented dealership network stateside.

Now you won't have to wear your assless pants in to look at a sport bike or get weird looks when you show up at the dealership in your Power Rangers suit.

I believe this is the first step in separating the sportbike distribution from the cruiser distribution.

It will be easier to service the new generation of Buells inside a sportbike shop rather than trying to retrain Harley techs to service Rotax engines.

There will also be the ability to homogenize parts and accessories for sport bikes.

I see this as a VERY good move for HD and an even better move for Buell. Better this than HD selling Buell to MV Augusta.

I would expect the prices for MV Augustas to decline a little bit. HD has a rediculous ability to degotiate discounts on materials, components, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the components get sourced stateside. Means more American jobs.

[DLIT]

They just want to get there foot in the door with a quality sport bike manufacturer.

But buying the entire company?

[Rider]

But buying the entire company?

Why not? They are considerably smaller than the Japanese big 4 or even Ducati and Aprilia but they make high end bikes. I would think from a business standpoint, that where you want to invest. More return on a smaller investment. Could you imagine the popularity if they stated making the F4 in the 1098 or RSV price range? You'd kick the crap out of Ducati and Aprilia in terms of sales.

[pickle.of.doom]

Lets just hope they don't take a perfectly functional motorcycle and start slapping 1950's tech on it because it looks cool :)

[marko138]

Lets just hope they don't take a perfectly functional motorcycle and start slapping 1950's tech on it because it looks cool :)
I don't know if you're just being a wise guy...but HD puts out some very high tech stuff now a days.

[Audiomechanic]

The OP was hatin.

And, I agree, Harley puts out good stuff these days (still overpriced) but good nonetheless

changed the OP. Happy? Good. :)

My opinion: all the good stuff is wrapped up in the VRSC bikes and a one Sportster that won't even be sold here. Everything else is 1950's tech still (not counting Buell...but HD didn't come up with the innovations for Buell).

If they don't change the MV's, great! All for it. If they do, it'll ruin the MV's.

[BobTheBiker]

Dont get me wrong, HD makes some good stuff, but the pushrod V twin is old still ancient technology. its time to start throwing some more modern stuff in there. all I'm seeing is the same old motors, just fuel injected really and more electronic stuff. no real mechanical improvements in the last what's it been? 20+ years at least?

[FT BSTRD]

Harley Davidson is what happens when you take a company at the pinnacle of technological advancement and hit it in the soft spot with a hammer.

They've never had to evolve because their core buyer was buying "classic".

They understand the market for their cruisers. They understand that they don't know jack about sport bikes. Buell had to sell enough bikes to justify the expense of the Rotax development. You will see a continued movement away of Buell from Harley Davidson technologically.

You will not see HD tech on an MV Augusta or a Buell.

You might see MV Augusta and Buell tech on a Harley, though.


This is strictly a surface area/market exposure move. My guess is that there will be three distinct divisions, HD, Buell, MV Augusta.

Think Ford, Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo.

[Audiomechanic]

Except Mazda's, Jaguar's, and Volvo's are all built on Ford platforms. In this example, the host company cloned their product under the acquired smaller companies' names.

Not saying that will happen (hope not). If it doesn't and more advanced tech shows up on Harleys, than I'm all for it and love the idea. If it goes the way of Ford, say goodbye to a nice Italian brand.

[BobTheBiker]

All I'm really saying is I'd LIKE A LOT to see some innovations and use of this modern technology available to us on those Harley motors. They can keep the old school stuff for the fans of classic products, but I'd like a new line of HD motors introduced for those of us who want a cruiser that is modern.

I honestly hope they just keep MV Agusta alive and well, while not really trying to change the bikes. MV makes a very refined and mighty machine that throws down what? 190 to the tire? which is like ZX14 territory with a lot less weight.

[Amber Lamps]

Look at it this way, Buell now has a 100% sportbike oriented dealership network stateside.

Now you won't have to wear your assless pants in to look at a sport bike or get weird looks when you show up at the dealership in your Power Rangers suit.

I believe this is the first step in separating the sportbike distribution from the cruiser distribution.

It will be easier to service the new generation of Buells inside a sportbike shop rather than trying to retrain Harley techs to service Rotax engines.

There will also be the ability to homogenize parts and accessories for sport bikes.

I see this as a VERY good move for HD and an even better move for Buell. Better this than HD selling Buell to MV Augusta.

I would expect the prices for MV Augustas to decline a little bit. HD has a rediculous ability to degotiate discounts on materials, components, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the components get sourced stateside. Means more American jobs.

Overall I like the idea but to say that this will bring in American jobs is a bit optimistic. The new Buell is maybe 20% American made. They don't buy American made parts for their "American" sportbike. Why would HD cut out the current vendors,whom to my knowledge,provide MV with excellent parts and start sourcing parts here in the U.S.? How could it possibly be more cost effective for them to buy parts here instead of all the producers in Europe. Besides,MV and Cagiva produce approximately 5000 bikes a year. You'd have to be pretty hard up as a parts manufacturer to pay for all the Cad/Cam and die costs for that few parts. Plus you'd still have to sell them at a price LOWER than they are getting them currently.

The biggest positive for me is the possibility that MVs could become easier for us to purchase and maintain with a larger dealer network behind them. To be honest tho',my guess is that HD is looking to sell more bikes over there rather than bring more bikes over here.

[Rider]

To be honest tho',my guess is that HD is looking to sell more bikes over there rather than bring more bikes over here.

Good point. But if they can bring the price down on the MV, they could sell more of those... How they go about that I have no idea.

[Cutty72]

Except Mazda's, Jaguar's, and Volvo's are all built on Ford platforms. In this example, the host company cloned their product under the acquired smaller companies' names.

Not saying that will happen (hope not). If it doesn't and more advanced tech shows up on Harleys, than I'm all for it and love the idea. If it goes the way of Ford, say goodbye to a nice Italian brand.

Not ALL mazda's are on ford platforms... in fact, only the Mazda 6 (Fusion) and the B series pickup (Ranger) share a platform with Ford.

[Amber Lamps]

Harley Davidson is what happens when you take a company at the pinnacle of technological advancement and hit it in the soft spot with a hammer.

They've never had to evolve because their core buyer was buying "classic".

They understand the market for their cruisers. They understand that they don't know jack about sport bikes. Buell had to sell enough bikes to justify the expense of the Rotax development. You will see a continued movement away of Buell from Harley Davidson technologically.

You will not see HD tech on an MV Augusta or a Buell.

You might see MV Augusta and Buell tech on a Harley, though.


This is strictly a surface area/market exposure move. My guess is that there will be three distinct divisions, HD, Buell, MV Augusta.

Think Ford, Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo.

BAD example,I'm sure someone else pointed this out but Ford has run the Jag name into the ground. In fact in car terms,I've yet to see an American company buy a smaller foreign maker and have it be an improvement of the smaller brand's quality/design.

[FT BSTRD]

Except Mazda's, Jaguar's, and Volvo's are all built on Ford platforms. In this example, the host company cloned their product under the acquired smaller companies' names.

Not saying that will happen (hope not). If it doesn't and more advanced tech shows up on Harleys, than I'm all for it and love the idea. If it goes the way of Ford, say goodbye to a nice Italian brand.


Yeah, but those cloned platforms were all for nearly the same type of car (sedans, coupes, etc.).

I'm pretty sure that there won't be a single frame for all purposes. Then we'd be back to the UJM days. Want a cruiser, here are a set of buckhorns. Want a club racer, here are a set of clip ons. Want a standard, that's how they came from the factory.

There are virtually no shared parts between Buell and HD. Those that are shared are mainly fasteners and washers. I was missing a T27 body panel bolt. I called the local HD shop and they said that they didn't have a single bolt that would fit. I said "nothing?".

"Nope".

Overall I like the idea but to say that this will bring in American jobs is a bit optimistic. The new Buell is maybe 20% American made. They don't buy American made parts for their "American" sportbike. Why would HD cut out the current vendors,whom to my knowledge,provide MV with excellent parts and start sourcing parts here in the U.S.? How could it possibly be more cost effective for them to buy parts here instead of all the producers in Europe. Besides,MV and Cagiva produce approximately 5000 bikes a year. You'd have to be pretty hard up as a parts manufacturer to pay for all the Cad/Cam and die costs for that few parts. Plus you'd still have to sell them at a price LOWER than they are getting them currently.

The biggest positive for me is the possibility that MVs could become easier for us to purchase and maintain with a larger dealer network behind them. To be honest tho',my guess is that HD is looking to sell more bikes over there rather than bring more bikes over here.

Buell is working to source parts domestically. The frame for the XBs was produced in Italy. The 1125R frames are sourced in the US now. The XB engines were produced in Milwaukee. The Rotax engines will be sourced in Austria. Eventually, engine production will go the way of Aprilia and be brought in house. The wheels are still produced by Enkei in China.

I agree completely that the play is for territory in Europe, but there will be benefits here as well. I'd have to imagine that there would be some price savings for MV's coming here. If there may be a reduction on import duties as well as benefits in exchange rates. I suspect that MV will remain largely unchanged.

Now if they could just get the "potato, potato, potato" out of the harleys and get the cacophony of F4 auditory sex into their Harleys. That would be a feat!

BAD example,I'm sure someone else pointed this out but Ford has run the Jag name into the ground. In fact in car terms,I've yet to see an American company buy a smaller foreign maker and have it be an improvement of the smaller brand's quality/design.

Saab. Opel. Volvo.


Look at the quality of these vehicles prior to being taken over. Granted none of them have become Honda or Toyota, but they are much better than they were prior to purchase.

[Amber Lamps]

Yeah, but those cloned platforms were all for nearly the same type of car (sedans, coupes, etc.).

I'm pretty sure that there won't be a single frame for all purposes. Then we'd be back to the UJM days. Want a cruiser, here are a set of buckhorns. Want a club racer, here are a set of clip ons. Want a standard, that's how they came from the factory.

There are virtually no shared parts between Buell and HD. Those that are shared are mainly fasteners and washers. I was missing a T27 body panel bolt. I called the local HD shop and they said that they didn't have a single bolt that would fit. I said "nothing?".

"Nope".



Buell is working to source parts domestically. The frame for the XBs was produced in Italy. The 1125R frames are sourced in the US now. The XB engines were produced in Milwaukee. The Rotax engines will be sourced in Austria. Eventually, engine production will go the way of Aprilia and be brought in house. The wheels are still produced by Enkei in China.

I agree completely that the play is for territory in Europe, but there will be benefits here as well. I'd have to imagine that there would be some price savings for MV's coming here. If there may be a reduction on import duties as well as benefits in exchange rates. I suspect that MV will remain largely unchanged.

Now if they could just get the "potato, potato, potato" out of the harleys and get the cacophony of F4 auditory sex into their Harleys. That would be a feat!



Saab. Opel. Volvo.


Look at the quality of these vehicles prior to being taken over. Granted none of them have become Honda or Toyota, but they are much better than they were prior to purchase.

OOPS!! I belong to a long line of "GM" people and I can argue this one forever! But I won't. Suffice it to say that I would like to see some data on these "quality" improvements my friend.

Oh and I've owned two Opels. Both Mantas,a '77 and a '81, both OUTSTANDING cars that were a ball to drive! As far as I know,Opel was an overseas brand name for GM products. They may have been an acquisition many,many years ago like Buick or Pontiac but GM didn't just buy Opel,not in my lifetime anyway. Most of the "Opels" they sell overseas now are just re-badged U.S. models. I don't consider a Malibu Maxx an improvement over the Opel Manta Gt I drove on the Autobahn when I was overseas.

Saab got better after GM bought them? I don't think so. Saabs were renowned for their longevity and lack of maintenance and were considered on par with BMW and Mercedes in the 70s and 80s in Europe. They also had a similar price tag... In fact,Saab was originally an airplane manufacturer and used some of the same motors in their cars back in the day. When I was in Germany during the early 80s,half the Sgts on post were buying Saabs because you were allowed to ship 1 vehicle for free back to the States and you could sell a Saab for double or triple what you paid because they were in demand and hard to get.

I'll give you Volvo because I'm not familiar with that brand personally but I will say that I thought VW owned them along with Porche...

Btw I appreciate your enthusiasm and patriotism! I daresay that if GM bought BMW you would say that their quality was vastly improved due to their association with GM!

[OneSickPsycho]

meanwhile harley cuts 700 jobs in america...

Perhaps if unions would stop demanding $25/hr for a job a trained monkey could do, they wouldn't have to do that.

changed the OP. Happy? Good. :)

My opinion: all the good stuff is wrapped up in the VRSC bikes and a one Sportster that won't even be sold here. Everything else is 1950's tech still (not counting Buell...but HD didn't come up with the innovations for Buell).

If they don't change the MV's, great! All for it. If they do, it'll ruin the MV's.

Throttle by wire is 1950's tech?

Dont get me wrong, HD makes some good stuff, but the pushrod V twin is old still ancient technology. its time to start throwing some more modern stuff in there. all I'm seeing is the same old motors, just fuel injected really and more electronic stuff. no real mechanical improvements in the last what's it been? 20+ years at least?

The engines have been considerably changed over the past 20 years... and they have a bike called VROD that uses newer technology... Now if they can sell more of them than any other bike in their line-up, maybe they'd have motivation to change.

All I'm really saying is I'd LIKE A LOT to see some innovations and use of this modern technology available to us on those Harley motors. They can keep the old school stuff for the fans of classic products, but I'd like a new line of HD motors introduced for those of us who want a cruiser that is modern.

I honestly hope they just keep MV Agusta alive and well, while not really trying to change the bikes. MV makes a very refined and mighty machine that throws down what? 190 to the tire? which is like ZX14 territory with a lot less weight.

Again, they will make what will sell. There's a reason the big four all have push rod v-twins in their line-ups... they sell. People stop wanting the old tech, HD will start creating all sorts of new shit. That's how the VROD came into play... and again, if VROD's start outselling Sportsters, the product line will evolve.

I don't see them doing shit to change anything about MV... Why would they? It works. They leave Buell to do their own thing for the most part so odds are, MV will remain unchanged.

[FT BSTRD]

I'll give you Volvo because I'm not familiar with that brand personally but I will say that I thought VW owned them along with Porche...

Btw I appreciate your enthusiasm and patriotism! I daresay that if GM bought BMW you would say that their quality was vastly improved due to their association with GM!

I only know OPEL and Saab stories from mechanic buddies. I am not as familiar as you are with them. Sounds like I may be way off base.

I'm not a big US auto manufacturer fan. Until recently, they have been largely uncompetitive with lack luster designs and abysmal quality. The UAW and poor management have made them what they are.

VW owns VW, Audi, Bently, Bugatti, Lamborghini, SEAT, and Skoda.

Porshe has a large stake in VW.

Volvo is definitely Ford. They were sucky before Ford. They are slightly less sucky now.


I'd say that GM purchasing BMW would have same effect as Chrysler buying MB.

Ford and GM are not evil companies nor are they magical in their ability to make acquired companies better. Likewise, I doubt that HD's affiliation with MV will automatically be good or automatically be bad.

One thing that HD has is money. Yes, they layed some employees off, but largely, they were positions that needed to be trimmed regardless.

[Amber Lamps]

I only know OPEL and Saab stories from mechanic buddies. I am not as familiar as you are with them. Sounds like I may be way off base.

I'm not a big US auto manufacturer fan. Until recently, they have been largely uncompetitive with lack luster designs and abysmal quality. The UAW and poor management have made them what they are.

VW owns VW, Audi, Bently, Bugatti, Lamborghini, SEAT, and Skoda.

Porshe has a large stake in VW.

Volvo is definitely Ford. They were sucky before Ford. They are slightly less sucky now.


I'd say that GM purchasing BMW would have same effect as Chrysler buying MB.

Ford and GM are not evil companies nor are they magical in their ability to make acquired companies better. Likewise, I doubt that HD's affiliation with MV will automatically be good or automatically be bad.

One thing that HD has is money. Yes, they layed some employees off, but largely, they were positions that needed to be trimmed regardless.

Ok I think we're on the same page!

[Audiomechanic]

Perhaps if unions would stop demanding $25/hr for a job a trained monkey could do, they wouldn't have to do that.



Throttle by wire is 1950's tech?

Which typical Harley has fly-by-wire?

The engines have been considerably changed over the past 20 years... and they have a bike called VROD that uses newer technology... Now if they can sell more of them than any other bike in their line-up, maybe they'd have motivation to change.

Understood and I mentioned the V-Rod as being the only forward innovation (other than buell) in a number of years. Too bad Harley didn't even design most of the VRSC (the engine anyway).

Again, they will make what will sell. There's a reason the big four all have push rod v-twins in their line-ups... they sell. People stop wanting the old tech, HD will start creating all sorts of new shit. That's how the VROD came into play... and again, if VROD's start outselling Sportsters, the product line will evolve.

This point is completely valid and makes perfect sense. I agree.

I don't see them doing shit to change anything about MV... Why would they? It works. They leave Buell to do their own thing for the most part so odds are, MV will remain unchanged.

Hope you're right.

[marko138]

Any one ever work on a push rod twin? Easy as fuck.


Oh....and the new XR1200 Harley (which America is not getting and is bullshit b/c I'd seriously consider buying it).....there are Buell parts in that engine!

[Audiomechanic]

Any one ever work on a push rod twin? Easy as fuck.


Oh....and the new XR1200 Harley (which America is not getting and is bullshit b/c I'd seriously consider buying it).....there are Buell parts in that engine!

I've worked on plenty of the push rod Vtwins. Both sporty's and big twins and you're right, they are easy to work on. Doesn't mean they're great or new motors.

I gotta admit, I like the XR as well! But I don't think Harley would sell any here. OSP helped me realize, the market and roads are different here. That's why Europe gets all the good stuff. Americans are perfectly content going no faster than 55 in a straight line, as loudly as possible for 7 hours straight.

[FT BSTRD]

I've worked on plenty of the push rod Vtwins. Both sporty's and big twins and you're right, they are easy to work on. Doesn't mean they're great or new motors.

I gotta admit, I like the XR as well! But I don't think Harley would sell any here. OSP helped me realize, the market and roads are different here. That's why Europe gets all the good stuff. Americans are perfectly content going no faster than 55 in a straight line, as loudly as possible for 7 hours straight.


The XR1200 IS coming to the US. Dealers are beginning to take orders.

If you want one, drop your deposit.

[Cutty72]

I've owned two Opels. Both Mantas,a '77 and a '81, both OUTSTANDING cars that were a ball to drive! As far as I know,Opel was an overseas brand name for GM products. They may have been an acquisition many,many years ago like Buick or Pontiac but GM didn't just buy Opel,not in my lifetime anyway. Most of the "Opels" they sell overseas now are just re-badged U.S. models. I don't consider a Malibu Maxx an improvement over the Opel Manta Gt I drove on the Autobahn when I was overseas.



Actually, that's backwards. Many of GM's current offerings are rebadged Opel's.

The XR1200 IS coming to the US. Dealers are beginning to take orders.

If you want one, drop your deposit.

Serious? I'm game. :dthumb:

[marko138]

The XR1200 IS coming to the US. Dealers are beginning to take orders.

If you want one, drop your deposit.
Bullshit. Where did you find this info? Every article I've read says it's not coming here....yet atleast. And it's not on the US Harley website....only the Euro site.

[Audiomechanic]

The XR1200 IS coming to the US. Dealers are beginning to take orders.

If you want one, drop your deposit.

NICE! Won't be buyin it though, but I hope it sells!

[FT BSTRD]

Bullshit. Where did you find this info? Every article I've read says it's not coming here....yet atleast. And it's not on the US Harley website....only the Euro site.

From several dealers. My understanding is that it's supposed to be a late release 2009 model.

We'll see. The dealer show is coming up in a couple of weeks. We will know with certainty after that.

[Amber Lamps]

Actually, that's backwards. Many of GM's current offerings are rebadged Opel's.



Serious? I'm game. :dthumb:

You're refering to the fact that alot of Gm's sedans share the same platform right? Um,the Pontiac G6, Opel Vectra (sp?),Malibu Maxx (which I mentioned earlier), Saab 9-3,etc. Having the same platform doesn't make them the same car but anyway,you're kinda making my point. Gm isn't taking great cars and making them "better,higher quality".They are buying an established make with a strong following and making it a GM product with a foreign maker's name on it. Which is what some people are afraid HD is going to do with MV. You see,the Saabs,Opels,etc that you see now aren't Saabs,Opels,etc. They are Malibus and Saturns with another brand's name on them. Oh and Saturns were modified Opels initially but now they are almost one and the same model for model.Are we ready for a Cagiva or Mv that is really a Buell Lighting with different badging?:hangman:

[Amber Lamps]

Oh and here is the coolest car Opel has out,look familiar? Man,I still love it!

[Amber Lamps]

Sorry Opel fan here! My first three cars were a Opel Manta,Opel Manta GT and a Alfa Romero Alfasud V4. Oh and Opel has been a part of GM since 1929 but began production in 1899... So it's kinda silly to say that GM is making Opel cars. That would be like saying GM is making re-badged Pontiacs.

[Cutty72]

You're refering to the fact that alot of Gm's sedans share the same platform right? Um,the Pontiac G6, Opel Vectra (sp?),Malibu Maxx (which I mentioned earlier), Saab 9-3,etc. Having the same platform doesn't make them the same car but anyway,you're kinda making my point. Gm isn't taking great cars and making them "better,higher quality".They are buying an established make with a strong following and making it a GM product with a foreign maker's name on it. Which is what some people are afraid HD is going to do with MV. You see,the Saabs,Opels,etc that you see now aren't Saabs,Opels,etc. They are Malibus and Saturns with another brand's name on them. Oh and Saturns were modified Opels initially but now they are almost one and the same model for model.Are we ready for a Cagiva or Mv that is really a Buell Lighting with different badging?:hangman:


The Saturn line is mostly what i was talking about.

The new Astra is an Opel... still has all the euro shit on it, turn signals, radio etc.
I belive the Vue is an Opel as well...

Aura still an "american" made car.

[Amber Lamps]

The Saturn line is mostly what i was talking about.

The new Astra is an Opel... still has all the euro shit on it, turn signals, radio etc.
I belive the Vue is an Opel as well...

Aura still an "american" made car.

Nope you're right except the Aura is also an Opel (Vectra,I think) but they also share the platform with the G6,Saab and Malibu. Is the Saturn a re-badged Opel which is a re-badged Malibu? Are we gonna end up with MVs that are really re-badged Buells, Buells that are really re-badged MVs,both,neither? Who knows? Oh and I'm on five sportbike forums and at least one person per forum is convinced that this buyout will make MVs more affordable....exactly when did HD start making motorcycling affordable? Now if that Chinese company that bought Benelli had bought MV then you might have something there... Even if HD decided to make MVs more affordable,they couldn't do it with "buying power". If they go to MV's existing vendors and say,we need the normal number of widgits,the vendor is gonna sell them at the normal price no matter who shows up to buy.

For example,let's say that MVs come with Blackstone rims (my fav!) and MV still only produces 5000 bikes for a total sale of 10,000 rims. Just because it's HD at the door doesn't mean that BST is gonna cut them a better deal does it? Now,if HD knocks on the door and says give us 50,000 rims because we are gonna start using them on Buells then sure they can get a better price. Unfortunately,we all know that most likely HD will stop buying expensive and beautiful BST and start putting Chinese made Enkeis on the MV. MV uses expensive Brembo premium brake components on their bikes now and Buell uses Nissin (I believe),which do you think will happen,Buell gets Brembo or MV gets Nissin? Ohlins vs whatever is on the Buells,etc. I'm saying that IF HD wants to bring the price down on MVs,serious component downgrades will be necessary. You will never be able to buy a 312 for $11,399....:sorry:

[Dnyce]

harleys have alota gd shit internally. externally, it looks the same, bcuz thats what their main consumer wants. the vrod is forward thinkin in harley terms, but ALOT of diehard harley guys hated it when it came out. "wtf? a radiator? get that jap crap outta here!" took em awhile to warm up to it.

i think itll make the buells better(especially in the sales dept), and mv will probably remain unchanged. maybe alil less overall bikes produced, makin them alil rarer, but its not gonna be like when amf bought harley

[marko138]

From several dealers. My understanding is that it's supposed to be a late release 2009 model.

We'll see. The dealer show is coming up in a couple of weeks. We will know with certainty after that.
That would be awesome. I hope it sells.

[BobTheBiker]

I talked to someone today about this who owns an HD, his view on it is that its just a marketing thing to expand their networks even farther across the globe.

Personally, I think they MAY integrate technologies and design between the MV and Buell lines to further improve both, which would justify the expensive pricetag. Hey, it'd be nice to see a Buell designed with an F4 motor throwing down more HP than a ZX14, yet have better cornering ability than an EX250 fully set up for the track with a midget riding it.

[OneSickPsycho]

Which typical Harley has fly-by-wire?

Understood and I mentioned the V-Rod as being the only forward innovation (other than buell) in a number of years. Too bad Harley didn't even design most of the VRSC (the engine anyway).

This point is completely valid and makes perfect sense. I agree.

Hope you're right.

Screamin' Eagle Road King and Ultra Classic Electriglide's both have throttle by wire for '08... It'll trickle down to the other models within the next couple years.

Who gives a fuck if HD designed the VROD engine or not?... What does that have to do with anything? They don't build race engines, are not setting out to do so, so they contract out someone who knows the technology better... Why spend the money on R&D when someone's already done the legwork for you? Pay them, use their technology, and make money. Win, win, win.

Any one ever work on a push rod twin? Easy as fuck.

Oh....and the new XR1200 Harley (which America is not getting and is bullshit b/c I'd seriously consider buying it).....there are Buell parts in that engine!

Exactly. The simplicity of the Buell is part of what attracted me to it... I am a mere mortal and do not require a machine so sophisticated and beyond my skill level.

Sorta... many of the parts are similar and based upon Buell tech, but they aren't necessarily straight from Buell.

[marko138]

Screamin' Eagle Road King and Ultra Classic Electriglide's both have throttle by wire for '08... It'll trickle down to the other models within the next couple years.

Who gives a fuck if HD designed the VROD engine or not?... What does that have to do with anything? They don't build race engines, are not setting out to do so, so they contract out someone who knows the technology better... Why spend the money on R&D when someone's already done the legwork for you? Pay them, use their technology, and make money. Win, win, win.



Exactly. The simplicity of the Buell is part of what attracted me to it... I am a mere mortal and do not require a machine so sophisticated and beyond my skill level.

Sorta... many of the parts are similar and based upon Buell tech, but they aren't necessarily straight from Buell.
I've read some, including the cams, are directly from Buell.

[Amber Lamps]

I've read some, including the cams, are directly from Buell.

Which means they're straight from Rotax? Btw don't get me wrong,I applaud HD for realizing that they'll never produce a viable sportbike engine in-house and going to someone who could. I just think that the heart and soul of a motorcycle is the engine and if that isn't yours then the bike really isn't either. Basically,you're a "bike assembler",like OCC, at that point in my narrow-minded book.

To be honest,it really doesn't matter to me what happens with this buyout. I'll probably never own a MV,HD or Buell. I'll never be able to justify the price tags of either the MV or HD and Buell's stying has never been to my taste. I keep dreaming that Polaris/Victory will come out with a "American" sportbike or that Moto-Czysz and/or Fischer can somehow produce a viable sportbike for around the same money as the Japanese.

[FT BSTRD]

Nope you're right except the Aura is also an Opel (Vectra,I think) but they also share the platform with the G6,Saab and Malibu. Is the Saturn a re-badged Opel which is a re-badged Malibu? Are we gonna end up with MVs that are really re-badged Buells, Buells that are really re-badged MVs,both,neither? Who knows? Oh and I'm on five sportbike forums and at least one person per forum is convinced that this buyout will make MVs more affordable....exactly when did HD start making motorcycling affordable? Now if that Chinese company that bought Benelli had bought MV then you might have something there... Even if HD decided to make MVs more affordable,they couldn't do it with "buying power". If they go to MV's existing vendors and say,we need the normal number of widgits,the vendor is gonna sell them at the normal price no matter who shows up to buy.

For example,let's say that MVs come with Blackstone rims (my fav!) and MV still only produces 5000 bikes for a total sale of 10,000 rims. Just because it's HD at the door doesn't mean that BST is gonna cut them a better deal does it? Now,if HD knocks on the door and says give us 50,000 rims because we are gonna start using them on Buells then sure they can get a better price. Unfortunately,we all know that most likely HD will stop buying expensive and beautiful BST and start putting Chinese made Enkeis on the MV. MV uses expensive Brembo premium brake components on their bikes now and Buell uses Nissin (I believe),which do you think will happen,Buell gets Brembo or MV gets Nissin? Ohlins vs whatever is on the Buells,etc. I'm saying that IF HD wants to bring the price down on MVs,serious component downgrades will be necessary. You will never be able to buy a 312 for $11,399....:sorry:

What HD is good at doing is reducing costs through volume. When negotiation with shipping companies, you can get them to give you a better volume price when they are shipping 500,000 units, so you get a better price for the 10,000 or so MV's you ship. When looking at fasteners, there is a homogenization of fasteners that can reduce the number of specialized fasteners and the use of common fasteners. You can then reduce the cost per common fastener. There are reductions in frame manufacturing by common sourcing frames. Once the frame design has been completed by the engineers, is there anything unique about how MV welds their frames vs. Buell vs. Harley? Plastic and carbon fiber body panels can be common sourced providing discounts. Tires can be common sourced for discounts. 10,000 tires doesn't provide the same discount that 500,000 tires would. Electrical components can be common sourced providing discounts. HD would also be able to supply engineering and technical support that can help reduce the costs of R&D for MV. CAD and CAM resources could be shared between the companies rather than keeping them separate. Raw materials sourcing can also be shared. How much could be saved for MV by getting a discount on aluminum, titanium, and magnesium for engine casting and component machining. When you purchase aluminum for 500,000 bikes, you can get a discount for that material that you couldn't get for 10,000. Machining tools can also be bought with volume discounts.

I don't know that any of this will make that much of a difference, but it could. The question is whether HD will chose to pass any of these discounts down to us domestically. They could chose to keep the price high in order to keep it a high end marque and simply pocket the cost savings as profit. Conversely, how many more bikes could MV sell with equal per bike profit were the savings passed on to the buying public? What if they could reduce the price by 15-20% due to cost savings and this resulted in 50% more bikes sold?

None of these savings would necessarily cause a cheapening of MV bikes from a quality stand point. They would only need to gain enough of a discount to make a difference. This is what HD is very good at doing.


We'll see what happens. They may simply treat MV as a separate entity and provide it with absolutely no savings in common sourcing. I kinda doubt it, but it could happen.

Which means they're straight from Rotax? Btw don't get me wrong,I applaud HD for realizing that they'll never produce a viable sportbike engine in-house and going to someone who could. I just think that the heart and soul of a motorcycle is the engine and if that isn't yours then the bike really isn't either. Basically,you're a "bike assembler",like OCC, at that point in my narrow-minded book.

To be honest,it really doesn't matter to me what happens with this buyout. I'll probably never own a MV,HD or Buell. I'll never be able to justify the price tags of either the MV or HD and Buell's stying has never been to my taste. I keep dreaming that Polaris/Victory will come out with a "American" sportbike or that Moto-Czysz and/or Fischer can somehow produce a viable sportbike for around the same money as the Japanese.

There is less than a 2% part similarity between any Buell model and and HD model. Mostly fasteners. The cams would only transition between pushrod air/oil-cooled engines.

The similarity between the 1125R and the XB line is probably like 10-15% parts similarity with most of those being fasteners, wheels, brake, and body components.

My understanding is that after 2010, the air/oil-cooled XB line will be no more. At that point Buell will have as much to with HD as MV will. MV and Buell will become much more similar. Perimeter brake MV? Dual rotor Brembo Buell? Trellis frame Buell? Fuel in frame MV?

What a cool parts bin it will be between MV and Buell. I can't wait to see what beast comes out of that marriage.:drool:

[Amber Lamps]

Ummm...Neither HD nor Buell manufacture the frames for Buell,nor the rims,nor the motors,nor the plastics,nor the brakes,nor the electronic components,etc,etc,etc. I thought you owned a Buell. How can HD's "buying power" of raw materials affect the price of a bike when they outsource most of the components? Your proposal COULD make some sense if,as I said,HD got their existing vendors to start making parts for MVs. What you are failing to understand is that most(if any) of the components aren't made by HD, Buell, or MV but by outside vendors. Heck,the motor that is provided by Rotax for the 1125 is ASSEMBLED by Rotax from components sourced from factories from all over the world. Haven't you ever worked in a factory? No company that sells anything of any complicity produces all of the components in house. If MV buys their pistons from factory "A" and HD buys their pistons from factory "B",HD's "buying power" at factory "B" will have no effect on the price they pay for a piston at factory "A". The only way volume could affect the price of MV's pistons is if HD starts having MV's pistons made at factory "A". Btw don't MVs come with Pirelli tires? Are you suggesting that they start putting Dunlops on them so they can get in on HD's volume discount? I've toured the HD factory years ago,guess what? They don't manufacture much of ANYTHING,they assemble parts from various vendors to produce motorcycles that are "assembled in America". You're talking like blocks of steel,aluminum,plastic,etc go in one side of HD's factory and motorcycles come out the other side!:whistle:

[pickle.of.doom]

Don't confuse HD and Buell.


HD's do have high tech shit on them, but only if its somewhere the customer won't see it. Things like carbs, brakes, pipes, have to remain 1950's tech or the customer base will start bitching...

[marko138]

Tigger, could you try not writing a book every time you post.

[Amber Lamps]

Tigger, could you try not writing a book every time you post.

Yes sir.

[Cutty72]

Btw don't MVs come with Pirelli tires? Are you suggesting that they start putting Dunlops on them so they can get in on HD's volume discount?

Buell's come with Pirelli tires :whistle:

[marko138]

Buell's come with Pirelli tires :whistle:
Sure do.

[Dave]

Exactly. The simplicity of the Buell is part of what attracted me to it... I am a mere mortal and do not require a machine so sophisticated and beyond my skill level.


eh? ive never had any problems working on I4s. probably easier in some cases. hell i had my hurricane less than 48 hours when i stripped it apart and swapped out every filter, plugs, wires, oil and just generally went over things. easy peasey

I just think that the heart and soul of a motorcycle is the engine and if that isn't yours then the bike really isn't either. Basically,you're a "bike assembler",like OCC, at that point in my narrow-minded book.

To be honest,it really doesn't matter to me what happens with this buyout. I'll probably never own a MV,HD or Buell. I'll never be able to justify the price tags of either the MV or HD and Buell's stying has never been to my taste. I keep dreaming that Polaris/Victory will come out with a "American" sportbike or that Moto-Czysz and/or Fischer can somehow produce a viable sportbike for around the same money as the Japanese.

i dont quite agree with this one either, i cant quite see the aprilia rsv-r as "assembled" however i do agree that id like to see motocyz and fischer make it though i still think that motocyz is reaching way too far in trying to make a viable racing team right off the bat. fischer def has a better plan...kinda like a buell lite

[FT BSTRD]

Ummm...Neither HD nor Buell manufacture the frames for Buell,nor the rims,nor the motors,nor the plastics,nor the brakes,nor the electronic components,etc,etc,etc. I thought you owned a Buell. How can HD's "buying power" of raw materials affect the price of a bike when they outsource most of the components? Your proposal COULD make some sense if,as I said,HD got their existing vendors to start making parts for MVs. What you are failing to understand is that most(if any) of the components aren't made by HD, Buell, or MV but by outside vendors. Heck,the motor that is provided by Rotax for the 1125 is ASSEMBLED by Rotax from components sourced from factories from all over the world. Haven't you ever worked in a factory? No company that sells anything of any complicity produces all of the components in house. If MV buys their pistons from factory "A" and HD buys their pistons from factory "B",HD's "buying power" at factory "B" will have no effect on the price they pay for a piston at factory "A". The only way volume could affect the price of MV's pistons is if HD starts having MV's pistons made at factory "A". Btw don't MVs come with Pirelli tires? Are you suggesting that they start putting Dunlops on them so they can get in on HD's volume discount? I've toured the HD factory years ago,guess what? They don't manufacture much of ANYTHING,they assemble parts from various vendors to produce motorcycles that are "assembled in America". You're talking like blocks of steel,aluminum,plastic,etc go in one side of HD's factory and motorcycles come out the other side!:whistle:


HD and Buell currently contract out with component manufacturers for nearly all of the components for their bikes. The more parts the contract with a manufacturer, frames, plastics, engine castings, rims, etc, the better price break they get per part. MV Augusta doesn't produce EVERY component in house. They do the frames and engines as far as I know. The carbon fiber is probably produced in house, but I'd bet they aren't forging bolts, casting wheels, pouring plastics, or creating electronic components out back. I suspect that the frames will be produced outside as soon as HD can arrange it with their current frame suppliers. Beyond initial R&D, there is no reason not to produce them outside. Mass producing the frames will provide cost savings and volume buying (add 10,000 MV frames to the 500,000 HD frames and a lower per unit price is available). For raw materials, each of these components, engine, frame, plastics, etc., must all come from somewhere. When HD places a large order with a production partner, they in tern go to the open market to find the raw materials they need to produce that part. The larger the order the greater the amount of raw materials that can be ordered at one time. When large quantities are being ordered at a time, volume discounts are given. Think 5 gallon bucket of mayonase at Sam's.

My wife owns a children's clothing line. She produces NOTHING in house. She designs the clothing by creating a prototype. She then designs what the fabric patterns and materials will be. She sends the prototypes and electronic specifications for the fabric to the manufacturer. The manufacturer's minimum order count is 30,000 units. For every 10,000 units ordered over 30,000 there is a volume discount. Why is this? The clothing manufacturer is able to reduce the cost in part because there is less retooling time between sewing jobs. The manufacturer is also able to reduce the cost per unit as a result of the savings provided by suppliers. The manufacturer cuts and sews the garment but doesn't produce the fabrics. The manufacturer receives the fabric from the printer. The printer uses fabric dyes, color fast agents, and softeners. The more of these chemicals the printer can order at the same time, the cheaper per gallon these chemicals are. The larger the clothing order the larger the fabric order the lower the per fabric dying per unit. The fabric printer gets the fabric from the cotton mill. The cotton mill weaves cotton and nylon thread to produce the fabric. The larger the fabric order the more cotton and nylon thread the mill orders at one time. The larger the cotton and nylon thread order the lower the per unit cost of thread and the lower the per unit cost of fabric. The cotton and nylon thread is produced by the thread manufacturer. The thread manufacturer buys raw cotton and synthetic polymers to produce the cotton and nylon thread. The larger the order of cotton and synthetic polymers the lower the per unit price and the lower the thread cost.

Volume discounts are the way companies are able to produce more profit. It's called Economies of Scale. These economies of scale provide for a lower final end unit price. Given supply and demand, the demand for a product increases as the price for a product decreases.

The second the ink was dry on the agreement for HD to take over MV, the procurement department began pouring over the inventory of fasteners, parts, and components for every MV model. Their specific goal is to common source every part possible to provide volume discounts. Similarly, they were eliminating accounting, management, sales, advertising, programming, and executive positions to save costs.

There will be unique parts that MV's have the Buells and HDs don't. I can guarantee, though, that any part that can be sourced from a similar parts supplier will be.


Sorry for the book.:pwhore2:

Nearly all motorcycle and automobile manufacturers are "assemblers". Those that aren't are luxury and beyond the reach of most of us.

Even those source parts from everywhere in the world. Why would you not want your manufacturer to source parts from the best suppliers with the highest skills?

If MV didn't produce the engines and frames in house and yet was able to produce a bike of equal or better quality to what is being produced today at 15-25% less price, wouldn't we all win?

The only people who lose are the ones who buy an MV simply BECAUSE it's more expensive. I'm sure we can find them something to spend their money on.

[Amber Lamps]

MV doesn't produce much of anything in house either(remember piston factory "A" vs "B"). They assemble outsourced parts as well. You wrote a long post explaining why I'm right. MV,HD,GM,etc run their companies just like you explained and I've said all along.

If your wife starts a new line of clothes using a fabric that her normal supplier doesn't handle,she'll be forced to use a different supplier that won't give her a volume discount based on her business with the first supplier. I don't understand what you are trying to say. First you stated that Harleys and Buells DON'T share the same parts but now you're saying that HD will common source parts for MV? Look up where all the components for the new Buell are made and explain to me how this created American jobs and then explain why if they couldn't source parts for an "American" motorcycle in this country,how they are gonna source parts for an Italian motorcycle here? For Christ's sake they had to outsource the motor for the V-Rod!

Anyway,HD should phase out MV and start using their manufacturing facilities to make European HDs and Buells to avoid shipping and tariff costs and expand their dealer network overseas. I'm sorry but MV is a losing proposition IMHO.

I'm sorry Marko if you want to put me back on "punishment" I understand....

[Amber Lamps]

i dont quite agree with this one either, i cant quite see the aprilia rsv-r as "assembled" however i do agree that id like to see motocyz and fischer make it though i still think that motocyz is reaching way too far in trying to make a viable racing team right off the bat. fischer def has a better plan...kinda like a buell lite

Yeah Rotax is/was making the motors for Aprillia,besides,like every other company,parts come in from various vendors and are put together at the Aprillia factory too. Why are you all so resistive to this concept? HD,GM,Aprillia, Suzuki,Honda,Boeing,etc don't manufacture much of anything,they design a product(some companies don't even do that),source the parts,and assemble the finished product. Heck,when I worked at Keeler I spent entire shifts assembling headlights for Neons from parts we outsourced and made on site. I bet at least four different companies were involved with making components just for that headlight. I'd wager that at least 30 companies are involved with manufacture of a motorcycle.

[FT BSTRD]

MV doesn't produce much of anything in house either(remember piston factory "A" vs "B"). They assemble outsourced parts as well. You wrote a long post explaining why I'm right. MV,HD,GM,etc run their companies just like you explained and I've said all along.

If your wife starts a new line of clothes using a fabric that her normal supplier doesn't handle,she'll be forced to use a different supplier that won't give her a volume discount based on her business with the first supplier. I don't understand what you are trying to say. First you stated that Harleys and Buells DON'T share the same parts but now you're saying that HD will common source parts for MV? Look up where all the components for the new Buell are made and explain to me how this created American jobs and then explain why if they couldn't source parts for an "American" motorcycle in this country,how they are gonna source parts for an Italian motorcycle here? For Christ's sake they had to outsource the motor for the V-Rod!

Anyway,HD should phase out MV and start using their manufacturing facilities to make European HDs and Buells to avoid shipping and tariff costs and expand their dealer network overseas. I'm sorry but MV is a losing proposition IMHO.

I'm sorry Marko if you want to put me back on "punishment" I understand....

I know the frames are made in-house.


You don't have to have the same part on every bike to common source from a supplier.

In my wife's example, the manufacturer doesn't care how many different items are produced as long as there are 30,000 units total. I'm sure that if there were 30,000 individual items, they would pitch a fit, but there are 1,000 different items in my wife's current line providing 30 of each is fine for the manufacturer.

Any parts that can be common, fasteners, washers, wiring, etc., will be. Individual components common only to MV, Buell, and HD will still be sourced by the same supplier (frames, engine castings, plastics, etc.).

Some of those suppliers may be US suppliers. Some off those suppliers may be Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese etc.

MV lacks the production capacity to be able to produce sufficient units to fulfill European demand.

American jobs may be created in expanded supplier units and raw materials sourcing. Additionally, additional support positions in accounting, IT, finance, sales and marketing, and R&D will be created.


One of the major benefits for MV in making their units less expensive is the ability to secure financing at potentially better interest rates. HD is a cash cow. HD corporate can loan money to MV for production at rates below what MV could secure independently. By absorbing MV's debt, HD has made the company more efficient. MV had $109M in debt. At 7%, that's $7.6M in intereset service on that debt. Divide that by 10,000 production units, and that's $763/bike. Another way to state it is that by removing the debt, MV has saved a little over 5% on a Brutale or over 3% of a 312. So let's say that MV could lower the price of a Brutale by 20%, a completely doable number, (financing savings plus supplier sourcing savings), that would put the base Brutale in the $11,595 range. That puts it within $1,200 of a Speed Triple.

For an extra $1,200, I'd bet more people would chose the Brutale over the speed triple. Now HD/MV may chose to only reduce the MSRP by 10% and pocket the rest. This would still make MV's more attractive from a pricing standpoint than they are currently, and it would provide more profit to the company allowing more R&D, new designs, etc.


Sorry. Another book.

[fnfalman]

I have a feeling that MV prices will go up because of the HD ownership. HOWEVER, hopefully parts availability will also go up as well. Hopefully.

[FT BSTRD]

Let's just hope the chrome part count doesn't go up.

[NONE_too_SOFT]

ya i think i'll pick this up.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MV-Agusta-Mint-MV-Agusta-F4-1000-w-Custom-Fairing-set-and-Extras_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ159596QQihZ004QQ itemZ140248820659QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[Cutty72]

Hey tigger, not to fuel the fire, but I have worked in production before as well.
Worked for IMAR, the company that made Sugar Sand Jet boats and Gekko tow boats.

When a new design was made, we R&D'd everything (except the engine and drive system) in house, and then sent it off to a supplier to be mass produced. The engines we just spec'd out to a vendor (Mercury) what we wanted, and they gave us options after that.

Not all built in house... but designed. and that's where the R&D costs come in.

[Amber Lamps]

Hey tigger, not to fuel the fire, but I have worked in production before as well.
Worked for IMAR, the company that made Sugar Sand Jet boats and Gekko tow boats.

When a new design was made, we R&D'd everything (except the engine and drive system) in house, and then sent it off to a supplier to be mass produced. The engines we just spec'd out to a vendor (Mercury) what we wanted, and they gave us options after that.

Not all built in house... but designed. and that's where the R&D costs come in.

Exactly in line with what I was saying. I know that the posts were long but that's my point. As far as switching vendors btw,unless the customer owned the dies,the new supplier would have to absorb die making and re-tooling costs. Not to mention new production line goof-ups and delays.

Anyway,MV is MV because of the way they are made and the use of nothing but top-notch components. Sure possibly HD could come in and start cost cutting and buying cheaper parts from dubious suppliers instead of using the established first class vendors that MV uses now. They could stop using the best brakes,suspension,fuel injection,rims,etc to save money. Who knows,they could sell you a bike for $10,000 with MV stickers on it...would it be the same bike? I don't think so.

[FT BSTRD]

Exactly in line with what I was saying. I know that the posts were long but that's my point. As far as switching vendors btw,unless the customer owned the dies,the new supplier would have to absorb die making and re-tooling costs. Not to mention new production line goof-ups and delays.

Anyway,MV is MV because of the way they are made and the use of nothing but top-notch components. Sure possibly HD could come in and start cost cutting and buying cheaper parts from dubious suppliers instead of using the established first class vendors that MV uses now. They could stop using the best brakes,suspension,fuel injection,rims,etc to save money. Who knows,they could sell you a bike for $10,000 with MV stickers on it...would it be the same bike? I don't think so.

Volume discount does not equal lower quality parts.

[Amber Lamps]

Volume discount does not equal lower quality parts.

I'm really developing a deep hatred of you...:whistle: j/k I did say "switching vendors/suppliers" not getting existing suppliers to give a better price.

Last attempt,you use a "pail of mayo" analogy,I'll try that...

If I buy a quart of Helman's (my fav) at the store,it costs $2 but if I buy a gallon it costs $7. That's volume discount. If I get married and my wife takes over the shopping and buys a quart of generic mayo for $1.50. That's switching vendors to save money and that's how I think HD would lower the cost of an MV IF they were to do so. Am I saying that generic mayo isn't as good as Helman's? Not necessarily but I am saying that it isn't HELMAN'S. When I go to the store and buy Helman's,I know exactly what I am getting. I've already tried shopping around and found that other brands of mayo aren't up to my strict quality standards. I'm trying to make a premium sandwich here. If I bought generic I would be concerned with consistency and with quality. When I make a sandwich using that product,it will not be the same sandwich I made using the Helman's mayo. Simple. Period.

From your previous examples,you seem to view this as large corporation taking over smaller company that produces a sub-standard product,ie your Ford to Volvo statement. I see it as Ford taking over Porsche and putting Mustang parts on a 911.

[FT BSTRD]

I'm really developing a deep hatred of you...:whistle: j/k I did say "switching vendors/suppliers" not getting existing suppliers to give a better price.

Last attempt,you use a "pail of mayo" analogy,I'll try that...

If I buy a quart of Helman's (my fav) at the store,it costs $2 but if I buy a gallon it costs $7. That's volume discount. If I get married and my wife takes over the shopping and buys a quart of generic mayo for $1.50. That's switching vendors to save money and that's how I think HD would lower the cost of an MV IF they were to do so. Am I saying that generic mayo isn't as good as Helman's? Not necessarily but I am saying that it isn't HELMAN'S. When I go to the store and buy Helman's,I know exactly what I am getting. I've already tried shopping around and found that other brands of mayo aren't up to my strict quality standards. I'm trying to make a premium sandwich here. If I bought generic I would be concerned with consistency and with quality. When I make a sandwich using that product,it will not be the same sandwich I made using the Helman's mayo. Simple. Period.

From your previous examples,you seem to view this as large corporation taking over smaller company that produces a sub-standard product,ie your Ford to Volvo statement. I see it as Ford taking over Porsche and putting Mustang parts on a 911.

No need to hate. We're having a great exchange.

Do you believe that the frames manufactured for HD are inferior quality to those produced by MV?

Do you believe that the engine components manufactured for HD are inferior quality to those produced my MV?


If so, that is inaccurate. HD moving production of components from MV's suppliers to HD's suppliers would not necessitate a decline in quality. They don't have to go lower quality to save money. They could, but I'd bet they won't.

Why?

If people stop looking at MV as a quality, sought after motorcycle marque, people will stop coming into the MV showrooms. If people aren't coming into the MV showrooms, they won't be looking at HD models either. It would negate what HD is trying to do.

[6doublefive321]

I'm not sure where all the "price cutting" talk came from. In terms of value, MV's are priced better than HD's. For the same amount of money, you can get either a Brutale 910 or a Fat Bob. One has ~140 hp, weighs ~420 lbs., and has modern suspension. The other doesn't even list hp, only torque, weighs over 700 lbs., and has the same suspension as my 1986 Yamaha Radian. Guess which one is which. Granted, HD may resource parts or restructure current business arrangements, but don't expect any of that to filter down to the end user.

A lot of folks (including myself) will slam HD for their designs, and lack of modernization. However, they know how to run their business. I have no fear that the MV brand will be tainted in any way. If anything, HD's financial stability will help MV stay a low volume, high end bike maker. In the long run, MV fans will be glad that HD took over and allowed MV's to still roll onto the street.

[OneSickPsycho]

I'm not sure where all the "price cutting" talk came from. In terms of value, MV's are priced better than HD's. For the same amount of money, you can get either a Brutale 910 or a Fat Bob. One has ~140 hp, weighs ~420 lbs., and has modern suspension. The other doesn't even list hp, only torque, weighs over 700 lbs., and has the same suspension as my 1986 Yamaha Radian. Guess which one is which. Granted, HD may resource parts or restructure current business arrangements, but don't expect any of that to filter down to the end user.

A lot of folks (including myself) will slam HD for their designs, and lack of modernization. However, they know how to run their business. I have no fear that the MV brand will be tainted in any way. If anything, HD's financial stability will help MV stay a low volume, high end bike maker. In the long run, MV fans will be glad that HD took over and allowed MV's to still roll onto the street.


All depends on your definition of value.

[6doublefive321]

All depends on your definition of value.

I'll grant you that. No one in the market for an HD would even consider the MV, and visa versa. But you'll have to give me that for two comparatively priced machines, there is no way in 17 hells that it costs as much to build the HD as it does the MV. As we are all aware, the HD badge has a value in itself to some folks. Just not me.

[Dave]

I see it as Ford taking over Porsche and putting Mustang parts on a 911.

ooh unreliable parts on a deathtrap platform. sounds like a great way to reduce the world idiot count. hey ford are ya reading this? :dthumb:

[Amber Lamps]

No need to hate. We're having a great exchange.

Do you believe that the frames manufactured for HD are inferior quality to those produced by MV?

Do you believe that the engine components manufactured for HD are inferior quality to those produced my MV?


If so, that is inaccurate. HD moving production of components from MV's suppliers to HD's suppliers would not necessitate a decline in quality. They don't have to go lower quality to save money. They could, but I'd bet they won't.

Why?

If people stop looking at MV as a quality, sought after motorcycle marque, people will stop coming into the MV showrooms. If people aren't coming into the MV showrooms, they won't be looking at HD models either. It would negate what HD is trying to do.

I don't know you so I will acquiesce to your greater knowledge of Harley's long range plans for MV. I personally don't know. I was arguing your assertion about HD being able to lower the price of an MV thru volume. You seem to know more about it than I do. Do me a favor and tell Wille G I said hi at the next HD board meeting you attend.

To answer your questions,YES I BELIEVE HDs ARE A LOWER QUALITY MOTORCYCLE THAN MV!!!!! Who doesn't? Yes I think that MV uses better components (brakes,rims,suspension,electronics,etc) than Harley. Yes I believe that MV motors are made from materials that HD suppliers don't even deal with. Yes, I believe that MVs outperform HDs in every catagory aside from comfort. I also think that Suzukis,Yamahas,Hondas,Kawasakis,etc are also inferior to MV. I would have the same concerns if Suzuki had purchased MV. Although,at least Suzuki knows how to build a high performance motorcycle in the first place. Oh and please explain why you all think that Buell and MV will have anything to do with each other? There's no way that these two makes could be any more different!

News flash the very second that this buyout was announced 50% of the motorcycle buying public stopped considering MV "a quality,sought after motorcycle marque". Hence the original post. Out of 5 forums,the only people that REALLY believe this is great own Buells. Everyone else is at best "cautiously optimistic". FYI when AMF bought out HD alot of people said the same things you guys are saying about volume,cost savings,quality,etc. I owned two Sportsters from that time... JUNK!!! My friend bought one.... broke down before he even got home! Do you really believe that HDs are made to the same standards as a MV? I don't. Besides,you quote my posts but I don't think you read them....

[FT BSTRD]

I don't know you so I will acquiesce to your greater knowledge of Harley's long range plans for MV. I personally don't know. I was arguing your assertion about HD being able to lower the price of an MV thru volume. You seem to know more about it than I do. Do me a favor and tell Wille G I said hi at the next HD board meeting you attend.

To answer your questions,YES I BELIEVE HDs ARE A LOWER QUALITY MOTORCYCLE THAN MV!!!!! Who doesn't? Yes I think that MV uses better components (brakes,rims,suspension,electronics,etc) than Harley. Yes I believe that MV motors are made from materials that HD suppliers don't even deal with. Yes, I believe that MVs outperform HDs in every catagory aside from comfort. I also think that Suzukis,Yamahas,Hondas,Kawasakis,etc are also inferior to MV. I would have the same concerns if Suzuki had purchased MV. Although,at least Suzuki knows how to build a high performance motorcycle in the first place. Oh and please explain why you all think that Buell and MV will have anything to do with each other? There's no way that these two makes could be any more different!

News flash the very second that this buyout was announced 50% of the motorcycle buying public stopped considering MV "a quality,sought after motorcycle marque". Hence the original post. Out of 5 forums,the only people that REALLY believe this is great own Buells. Everyone else is at best "cautiously optimistic". FYI when AMF bought out HD alot of people said the same things you guys are saying about volume,cost savings,quality,etc. I owned two Sportsters from that time... JUNK!!! My friend bought one.... broke down before he even got home! Do you really believe that HDs are made to the same standards as a MV? I don't. Besides,you quote my posts but I don't think you read them....


I am not sure as to the long range plans. I have no inside knowledge of HD specifically.

My background is in finance, economics, and corporate management. Yours appears to be on the manufacturing end (I could be very wrong on that.) I believe we both have valid points on this merger. I can only comment on what, corporately, a merger of this type would mean internally to HD and MV from a management standpoint.

It could all go horribly off the rails, or it could be one of the best things for MV. I have to believe that MV didn't view this as a hostile takeover. There was a reason MV would be willing to approve this merger. MV could have easily fought this and it would have been very public and very messy. They didn't.

I don't know if you are familiar with market segmentation as a concept, but many times companies produce products of two or three grades at two or three price points. The goal is to generate profits across a wide variety of price ranges. Sometimes Nabisco produces products under store labels that are exactly the same as the name brand products. Same product, two different prices. They make a smaller margin off the lower priced product, but they expand the quantity of goods sold.

HD may be looking to do some of the same as well. They have both Buell and MV. Two different grades of motorcycle. Two different price points.

We shall see. I hope that MV remains a high quality marque. Having lived the AMC days first hand, I can't imagine HD wanting to propogate those same impacts on MV.

They are a bunch of assless pant wearing knuckle draggers, but they ain't dumb.

[Amber Lamps]

I have a very varied background. I've worked in factories,I've worked in offices,I have a couple of worthless degrees and alot of experience. One thing is certain,I have a grassroots understanding of "market segmentation" as I've been the guy on the floor of the factory changing the bags to go from Butternut bread to Meijer's store brand. I've produced "A","B" and "C" parts on a factory line. I've sold Jensen,Phase Linear and Infinity brand stereo equipment which are made by the same company. I've worked at the factory that made Rockford Fosgate,MB Quart and Lightning speakers. Man,I don't know if you're just messing with me or what but if you are insinuating that I'm stupid or don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have the same degree as you do... market segmentation is HD producing/selling a Sportster,a Fatboy and a Roadking. Three levels of bikes made by the same company to cover a wide variety of customers. Honda selling a VFR800,a ST1300 and a Goldwing is another example. Chevy, Olds, Cadillac. Cheeseburger,double cheeseburger,Big Mac. I understand the concept,I doubt that to be HD's goal. As someone said,HD customers will barely give a MV a second look. Oh and 50 million dollars of debt and a pack of creditors on your back can make you very agreeable to a "merger". Besides,I could have swore I read somewhere that they have been looking for a buyer for quite some time.It may be that MV approached HD.

[Audiomechanic]

Dang. How did this thread migrate from motorcycle companies, to car companies, to mayo? I am very confused. :ws:

:lol:

[Amber Lamps]

Dang. How did this thread migrate from motorcycle companies, to car companies, to mayo? I am very confused. :ws:

:lol:

Where have you been punk?!? You started this and I've going it solo against the HD fanatic! You could have helped me you know!:cry:

[FT BSTRD]

I have a very varied background. I've worked in factories,I've worked in offices,I have a couple of worthless degrees and alot of experience. One thing is certain,I have a grassroots understanding of "market segmentation" as I've been the guy on the floor of the factory changing the bags to go from Butternut bread to Meijer's store brand. I've produced "A","B" and "C" parts on a factory line. I've sold Jensen,Phase Linear and Infinity brand stereo equipment which are made by the same company. I've worked at the factory that made Rockford Fosgate,MB Quart and Lightning speakers. Man,I don't know if you're just messing with me or what but if you are insinuating that I'm stupid or don't know what I'm talking about because I don't have the same degree as you do... market segmentation is HD producing/selling a Sportster,a Fatboy and a Roadking. Three levels of bikes made by the same company to cover a wide variety of customers. Honda selling a VFR800,a ST1300 and a Goldwing is another example. Chevy, Olds, Cadillac. Cheeseburger,double cheeseburger,Big Mac. I understand the concept,I doubt that to be HD's goal. As someone said,HD customers will barely give a MV a second look. Oh and 50 million dollars of debt and a pack of creditors on your back can make you very agreeable to a "merger". Besides,I could have swore I read somewhere that they have been looking for a buyer for quite some time.It may be that MV approached HD.


Not messing with you at all. I don't know your background. I don't want to assume you are familiar with a concept. I definitely am not insinuating that you are stupid. Quite to the contrary. It's been a lively and well thought out discussion. I've enjoyed it!:rockwoot:

We'll simply have to see what happens. It'll be interesting to see where MV is in a year, two years, and five years.

I believe it was $109M of debt. It could make one "concerned". If it was as bad as it might seem, it really doesn't matter what HD does MV was potentially headed for oblivion or at least Chinese ownership.

Ducati was in no shape to make a bid for MV. They were actually in the same discussions MV was. We could just as easily be discussing Ducati. What is HD thinking? They obviously have some sort of a plan.

Being a Buell fan, MV's purchase is synonymous to your Morman husband coming home with a younger, hotter wife. You wonder who's going to get the nicer gifts. :tt:

the HD fanatic!

Hardly. The sooner Buell can get out from under the dealership distribution of the chrome baby boomer barges the better.

[Audiomechanic]

Where have you been punk?!? You started this and I've going it solo against the HD fanatic! You could have helped me you know!:cry:

Sorry man. I dropped out because I realized I'm not smart enough to continue. So I thought I'd read and learn. You're way smarter than me. :dthumb:

I'm not against Harley's. That being said, the only way I can see Harley helping MV is marketing. Any other contribution, especially in the realm of technology and design, will cause MV to suffer, far as I can tell.

[dReWpY]

If you cant build'em, buy'em

[6doublefive321]

If you cant build'em, buy'em

You said more in 7 words than everyone else did in their novels. Nicely done.

[Audiomechanic]

Just don't buy 'em and change 'em. :dthumb:

[Amber Lamps]

If you cant build'em, buy'em


And then run them into the ground!

Sorry man. I dropped out because I realized I'm not smart enough to continue. So I thought I'd read and learn. You're way smarter than me. :dthumb:

I'm not against Harley's. That being said, the only way I can see Harley helping MV is marketing. Any other contribution, especially in the realm of technology and design, will cause MV to suffer, far as I can tell.

yea right,I just ain't smart enough to know when to quit!

I agree with you about Harley. Everyone seems to want MV to sell more bikes but if they started selling 50,000 bikes a year,it wouldn't be the same bike.

[Dnyce]

it wouldn't be the same bike.

why not? if harley magically pulls a marketing miracle, and they start selling 50k bikes a year, without changing a thing to the actual bike or price, whats wrong with that?

[Amber Lamps]

why not? if harley magically pulls a marketing miracle, and they start selling 50k bikes a year, without changing a thing to the actual bike or price, whats wrong with that?

Oh I don't know,right now MV is a boutique bike basically,like Bimota almost. I'd imagine the bikes carefully hand assembled from parts that are doubly inspected for quality and precision. I'm not sure you can retain that level of quality if you go mass production. I read somewhere once that some of the people that work in assembly have been there for decades and they only produce a few bikes a day. I'm not sure they could maintain that level of quality if they tried to make ten times as many,that's all.....

[Audiomechanic]

I'm catchin what you're throwin. Some things need to remain rare to remain special and unique. Don't want MV to become the next GSXR (no offense Tigger). Why? In my mind, the GSXR is a great bike PACKED with technology and innovation, not to mention reliability. But when you think of a GSXR, do you think of that technology and innovation, or do you just breeze over it because it's "another Gixxer?" If I started a thread on my new GSXR, I would bet most of the replies would be "congrats!" or "nice bike." If I started a thread on my new MV, I'd get replies asking questions, requests for more pics, oogles, praises and jealousy.

If I see 3 bikes on the road, two are R1's and the 3rd is an MV, I'm gonna stop and admire the MV. I'm going to ask questions about it, picture myself riding it. Concentrate on it's details and beauty. Do the R1's have mostly the same tech? Sure. "But you don't see one of these everyday!"

Not only that, but as Tigger said, staying small keeps the quality high for MV. They have a reputation to uphold and if they fail to uphold it, they loose their business....that is....until they have the shelter of a larger company to take away that risk. They've been around since the 40's and seem to have a pretty good handle on how things are done.

Now, Harley can't FORCE them to sell, so if they choose to (or if they've chosen to), then that is the new direction they wish the business to take. I just hope they remain small and rare. Some things are meant to be expensive and exotic. Some things are meant to be had only by the few.

[FT BSTRD]

Do MVs usually sell for more than MSRP, MSRP, or less than MSRP?

I honestly don't know.

If they sell at or just below MSRP, then I'd say MV has found the pricing equilibrium. If that's the case, producing more bikes priced the same won't sell more bikes. They might sell a FEW more simply because there is an extra bike or two on the floor at any given time and might catch a buyer who would otherwise not buy.

More bikes produced WOULD reduce the rarity of the bike. I agree completely. The question is whether rarity is profitable. If they can double the production of a niche bike, but still have small enough numbers, they might be able to have their cake and eat it too.

I'd say that MV would love to have both long term, high quality assemblers as well as any upgrades or modernization of the factory that would help them to produce the same or higher quality bikes more efficiently. Again, they can have their cake and eat it too.

[Amber Lamps]

http://www.mvagustausa.com/web-mvagusta/community.html
http://www.mvagustausa.com/web-mvagusta/08_F4_1078RR.html
http://www.mvagustausa.com/web-mvagusta/07_F4_CC.html

Details,details,details...

[fnfalman]

Do MVs usually sell for more than MSRP, MSRP, or less than MSRP?

I honestly don't know.

If they sell at or just below MSRP, then I'd say MV has found the pricing equilibrium. If that's the case, producing more bikes priced the same won't sell more bikes. They might sell a FEW more simply because there is an extra bike or two on the floor at any given time and might catch a buyer who would otherwise not buy.


They sell at MSRP. Now and then I'd see a clearance bike that sells a thousand or so less than MSRP but usually you don't negotiate when you buy an MV Agusta.