Is Casey Stoner one of the best riders ever?

[L8 Braker]

I took most of the info from the great article below...I also used MotoGP.com for stats reference...

CLICK HERE FOR ARTICLE (http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-casey-stoner-among-the-best-ever/)

So let's talk facts...

--At age 25, he's already a premier class MotoGP champion
--he already has more premier class victories than legends Kenny Roberts, Barry Sheene, Freddie Spencer, Wayne Gardner, Wayne Rainey, and Kevin Schwantz
--he's only 4 victories shy of being even with 4 time GP champion Eddie Lawson
--the only other riders with more premier class victories are Lawson, Hailwood, Doohan, Agostini, and Rossi
--he has 27 premier class victories - Pedrosa and Lorenzo have 28 COMBINED
--he's s scored more victories during his time in MotoGP than Rossi has over that same span (27 to 26), while also notching up seven more pole positions than his nemesis (26 to 19)
--when he wins, it's typically by an extremely large margin

So, regardless of the abrasive persona, the public fights with Rossi, the constant claims of whining, the "it's the bike, not the rider" fodder, and other rumblings, you can't deny his numbers...The boy can ride, and is headed towards being one of the greatest riders the sport has ever seen...

[Trip]

I think he has taken a ton of heat because when he is not running away with it, he has been pushed easily to making mistakes. Laguna Seca comes to mind.

[Particle Man]

I think he has taken a ton of heat because when he is not running away with it, he has been pushed easily to making mistakes. Laguna Seca comes to mind.
Yeah I seem to recall several times when he ended up in the dirt for dumb reasons. He came back from it (or was far enough ahead that it didn't matter) but still...

[tached1000rr]

As a rider I'd say yes, as a finisher/racer he has to learn to modulate a bit more....

[Porkchop]

Other than Rossi, who has the Duc hampering this season, Stoner is the only rider out there that makes me feel like he is in another league. Pedobear and Whoregay have just never given me that feeling that there is just something special about the rider. I think Rossi is showing what Stoner had to deal with for all those years. Who knows where he would be had he not had to fight the inadequacies of the Duc and its front end. How many races did he have sizeable leads only to pitch it into the rocks when the front went. Havn't seen that front move this whole season on the Honda.... well other than when Rossi went flying underneath of him. Doh :lol:

[askmrjesus]

Rider? Sure. Put him in the front, and he goes like stink, no doubt about it.

Racer? Not so much.

I think the reason he's so fast at the front, is because he's scared to death of those icky people in the leather suits that are chasing him.

Additionally and plus, the stats comparing him to Roberts, Hailwood, Agostini, et al, fail to factor in the machinery used at the time. Stoner would curl up die of mysterious stomach cramps, if he had to compete on the beasties those guys raced on.

I'll give credit where it's due, but Casey is not on the same par as the "Great Ones". He's a runner, not a fighter.

JC

[Porkchop]

Rider? Sure. Put him in the front, and he goes like stink, no doubt about it.

Racer? Not so much.

I think the reason he's so fast at the front, is because he's scared to death of those icky people in the leather suits that are chasing him.

Additionally and plus, the stats comparing him to Roberts, Hailwood, Agostini, et al, fail to factor in the machinery used at the time. Stoner would curl up die of mysterious stomach cramps, if he had to compete on the beasties those guys raced on.

I'll give credit where it's due, but Casey is not on the same par as the "Great Ones". He's a runner, not a fighter.

JC

Shit, you play with the machinery you gots. Its like a Babe Ruth/Albert Pujols or Cy Young/Roy Halladay argument. Its almost not comparable, but you have to for the sake of numbers. I know many people argue that none of these kids would be superstars without the help of modern day electronics, but I dont agree. They got here for a reason, and if they didnt have electronics, they would have gotten there without them. You adapt to what you have and what you dont have. Thats why they're at the top of the game.

[askmrjesus]

Shit, you play with the machinery you gots. Its like a Babe Ruth/Albert Pujols or Cy Young/Roy Halladay argument. Its almost not comparable

No, it's not.

Baseball, aside from being one of the most useless games in the world, is also one of the least changed since it's unfortunate invention. Bats are still made of wood, gloves of leather, and grass is still grass.

The big, heavy, (by today's standards) snarly two strokes, that handled like raped wolverines, would have killed Stoner in the pits, just by looking at him in a cross manner.

JC

[L8 Braker]

Additionally and plus, the stats comparing him to Roberts, Hailwood, Agostini, et al, fail to factor in the machinery used at the time. Stoner would curl up die of mysterious stomach cramps, if he had to compete on the beasties those guys raced on.

I'll give credit where it's due, but Casey is not on the same par as the "Great Ones". He's a runner, not a fighter.

JC
Here's the thing about all that...

You can only race within the rules and technology that exists during your time and the idea is to be the best of whatever era to which you belong...And if that's the traction control era, then so be it -- but ultimately, that's the goal for Stoner, Rossi, and the rest...

[askmrjesus]

Here's the thing about all that...

You can only race within the rules and technology that exists during your time and the idea is to be the best of whatever era to which you belong...And if that's the traction control era, then so be it -- but ultimately, that's the goal for Stoner, Rossi, and the rest...

If that's the standard you want to judge Stoner by, then he doesn't hold a candle to Rossi.

JC

[L8 Braker]

If that's the standard you want to judge Stoner by, then he doesn't hold a candle to Rossi.Not many do, or ever will...

But you can't deny Stoner's ability to ride...

[derf]

He's good, one of the better ones out there today, but not the best ever. AMJ said it best:

Rider? Sure. Put him in the front, and he goes like stink, no doubt about it.

Racer? Not so much.




And yes you can compare racers from different eras, just need to look at them comparitevly as how they were looked at in their era.

[Porkchop]

My only comment about him not being a "racer" would be that its very hard to be a racer when he's 12 seconds infront of the next best person. Sure, he hasnt been tested this year, so we wont know how he'll react. But I really want to see it....

[Particle Man]

If that's the standard you want to judge Stoner by, then he doesn't hold a candle to Rossi.

JC

If he's holding a candle he should put the damn thing down and hold on to the freaking bars.

[smileyman]

One cannot forget the grid numbers those greats rode in...I mean when Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz, Gardner, and Doohan lined up there were no less than 6-10 riders that could win that race. No you have about 4 guys that have the smoke to win on any occaision.

Stoner is a great rider, but "One of the Greats" means you have to to beat more than 2 people per weekend.

And I agree with AMJ. Those Machines in the old days would have killed some of todays riders before they got a chance to shine...

[Dave]

One cannot forget the grid numbers those greats rode in...I mean when Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz, Gardner, and Doohan lined up there were no less than 6-10 riders that could win that race. No you have about 4 guys that have the smoke to win on any occaision.

Stoner is a great rider, but "One of the Greats" means you have to to beat more than 2 people per weekend.

And I agree with AMJ. Those Machines in the old days would have killed some of todays riders before they got a chance to shine...

I just want to see cs win four titles on a gimp leg.

[KSGregman]

One of the "Best Riders Ever" doesn't blow off half a season with a nervous break down after attempting to go toe to toe with a REAL Greatest of All Time and losing.....and then lie about it....concoct some bullshit story about lactose intolerance or whatever it was that he whined on about.

He's a weak minded, whiny little cunt. It's laughable to mention him in the same sentence as Mick Doohan or Wayne Rainey. I mean, SERIOUSLY....Rossi broke him in 2 races....those old school guys would have driven him out of the sport entirely. He doesn't have the mental toughness to hang....period.

[anthonyk]

The boy's got talent, for sure. But like others have mentioned, he hasn't mixed it up with enough other riders to show that he's got the mental steel to be called one of the best. And what he has shown in the past (or hell, even in practice/qualifying this year) with other riders hasn't been all that encouraging.

[L8 Braker]

Those Machines in the old days would have killed some of todays riders...And vice versa...

I mean, we've got possibly the greatest rider of all time in Rossi, and he's qualifying 4 seconds slower than Stoner...So, who's to say anyone from the past would fare any better?

I think you guys are letting your personal opinion of him as a person overshadow his ability to ride a motorcycle in the greatest racing arena in the entire world...Stoner is great, and the numbers back that up...If he keeps winning, he'll surely go down as one of the best to ever hit the grid...

[anthonyk]

Sure, but this question comes down 100% to personal opinion. He hasn't exhibited (for whatever reason) the qualities that I think are necessary to get into the "one of the best ever" category. Numbers are nice, but if we only looked at numbers, these would be really boring arguments.

[smileyman]

And vice versa...

I mean, we've got possibly the greatest rider of all time in Rossi, and he's qualifying 4 seconds slower than Stoner...So, who's to say anyone from the past would fare any better?

I think you guys are letting your personal opinion of him as a person overshadow his ability to ride a motorcycle in the greatest racing arena in the entire world...Stoner is great, and the numbers back that up...If he keeps winning, he'll surely go down as one of the best to ever hit the grid...

My opinion of his personality doesnt interfere with my ability to judge his success. He has been successful and will continue to be, but the racing itself doesnt bear out the spirit of of a great rider these days. You pretty well build and tune a better mousetrap and then lap at your best pace till the flag falls. The fact that he doesnt have to really duel with anyone each weekend is proof of that pudding.

And as for the vice versa, hells no. You put one of those aforementioned GP 2 stroke riders on todays machines and they would adapt to the outright speed and use the tractability and stability of todays machines to dominate. Unless you gave todays machines to more than one 2 stroker, then you would have a show!

Rossi said as much about the 500s, Schwantz and some of the other "old tymers" that have thrown a leg over will also tell you these are far easier to ride than their flexi framed power banded smokers.

[L8 Braker]

2 championships now, and he's the 5th winningest rider in MotoGP OF ALL TIME!!...All by age 26...

I'd say he deserves being in the group of greatest ever..

[fasternyou929]

2 championships now, and he's the 5th winningest rider in MotoGP OF ALL TIME!!...All by age 26...

I'd say he deserves being in the group of greatest ever..

What an amazing day for him yesterday. Birthday, a win at Philip Island, clinched the championship... all on home turf. And he gets to celebrate with a not-half-bad looking, pregnant wife when he gets home.

[L8 Braker]

I think this sums it up nicely...

Soup :: The King of the 800s :: 10-18-2011 (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Oct/111018stoner800.htm)

There can be zero argument: Stoner is the best rider ever on an 800cc World Championship motorcycle. All hail the king.

The numbers are overwhelming. Stoner has 32 victories from 2007-11. Seven-time MotoGP World Champion Valentino Rossi is a distant second, with 21 wins during the 800cc era.

Stoner has won two World Championships on an 800cc bike, the same as Rossi. But Stoner's titles came on two different machines, in 2007 aboard a Ducati and this year on a Honda. Rossi won titles in 2007 and 2008 on a Yamaha and has been lost in the premier-class wilderness this season on a Ducati.

The Australian may not be the warmest, fuzziest character in the paddock. He may appear to be the kind of guy who would complain that he wanted $2 million after collecting a $1 million lottery prize.

But there is no mistaking that Stoner is the best. And it's time that he is placed in the pantheon among the giants of the sport. Early testing indicates Honda could remain dominant in the first year of the 1000cc formula in 2012, so the summit of Mighty Casey's numbers might climb higher into the thin air of the legends.

[L8 Braker]

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, let's re-cap :D

Stoner is only 26, and.......

--he has 2 premier class championships...In the 62 years of GP racing, there are only 13 other riders who can say the same
--he has won the GP championship on 2 different manufacturers (Rossi and Ago did it, too, but not Doohan, and not Hailwood)
--he has 33 victories, making him the 5th winningest rider EVER!!!...Mike Hailwood has 37, and it should be easy for Stoner to pass him next year, putting him in 4th place on the all time list
--this year, Stoner tied Mick Doohan with the most pole positions in one season with 12...They are the only two in the history of GP that can say that
--this year, he finished on the podium EVERY SINGLE RACE that he didn't get taken out of race or the race was cancelled

If you want to compare him against Rossi, here's the stats...

--Casey joined the big boy ranks of GP in 2006...Since then, he has 33 victories...Rossi isn't even close with only 21 in the same amount of time

Stoner is young, and still has a lot of racing left in him, and it's feasible to think he can catch Doohan...Maybe not Agostini or Rossi, but who knows?...Regardless, he has accomplished more in the last 5 years than the entire GP grid will accomplish in a lifetime...He is easily in the category as one of the best to EVER race GP...

So, like him or hate him, you can't deny him his due :D