US government openly admits arming Mexican drug gangs with 30,000 firearms - but why?

[Avatard]

This is not a conspiracy theory, nor a piece of fiction. It is now an openly-admitted fact that this was pulled off by the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, more commonly called "ATF") under orders from Washington. The program was called "Fast and Furious."

http://www.naturalnews.com/032934_ATF_illegal_firearms.html

[derf]

It was probably done with the best of intentions and had far reaching goals that were over estimated. Some knucklehead who had a bright idea probably pitched the idea like this:

They already have guns, give them a few more (10 or so wont make a difference), we can track those and figure out how they get from legal US hands to the cartels. Throw that in a flashy powerpoint with a few seemingly easy yet far reaching goals and a big payoff if it works. And all of a sudden after a few levels of hashing off what would have been a small 10 gun program somehow turns into a massive program with huge negative effects

This was a dumb idea, and I really believe that it was a failure by the ATF and whatever other agency was involved, at every level of leadership, and every person that put their signature on this needs to be looked at seriously, but thats all it was, one big fuck up

[Avatard]

Eating the seafood platter at a sketchy restaurant is a "bad idea".

This is 30,000 firearms.

This transcends the phrase "bad idea" by a significant chunk, sorry.

[Kaneman]

It was probably done with the best of intentions and had far reaching goals that were over estimated.

Seriously dude, seriously? Goddamn....

[derf]

Seriously dude, seriously? Goddamn....

yeh very seriously, you guys give too much credit to the government, it really is filled with a bunch of good hearted people (and a whole slew of idiots) that are covered in red tape, political programs and pressures to produce results by any means (aka throw money at the problem). Its really the same as any other industry but with larger budgets and farther reaching impacts

[Avatard]

This is clearly the work of good hearted people. Good call, Derf.

[derf]

This is clearly the work of good hearted people. Good call, Derf.

I'm dead serious, 90% of the folks that did this seriously thought that it would eventually pay off big in tracking down how guns get where, the other 10% are bumbling idiots. I'm just calling it like I see it

[Avatard]

You need corrective lenses. The way you see it is pretty fucked up, IMHO.

[derf]

Why? Do you think people went out to arm Mexican drug cartels because they thought it was fun? Give me a serious explanation, really lay upon me your vast knowledge of how the government works.

Really it was just a bunch of people trying to do a good thing that did it in a fucked up way and it blew up in their faces, sometimes the simplest answer is really the answer

[Avatard]

I can't speculate properly on why this happened. I suspect it isn't out of kindness, and goodwill, however...

You can believe whatever you want, Ms. Riding Hood.

[derf]

No i read the article you provided and it is truly garbage journalism driven by the same sensationalism that pushes fox news to be uber conservative right wing. This guy talks about how the attorney general of the united states was involved in the planning, which was probably nothing more than him being given a 5 minute powerpoint presentation about how if we give them a few guns we can trace them back to the source, then he says it looks like a good plan and a year later that number somehow balooned into 30,000.

Seriously, the world isnt a huge conspiracy against the american people. And whats with the personal attacks?

I think i'm done with this thread

[Avatard]

You have just been a little too much of a mouthpiece for the establishment in the last few posts...and I mean, pretty far out there.

Personal attacks? The Red Riding Hood story tells of someone being taken in for not having seen a rather obvious bad situation stacking up against them.

That wasn't a personal attack, that was a (marginally humorous) shorthand reference to your apparent naivete, and myopia.

[Particle Man]

$$$$$$$

(either that or the "let 'em kill eachother and save us the trouble" mentality. Only sounds good on paper though....)

[Avatard]

Ding.

[anthonyk]

Eating the seafood platter at a sketchy restaurant is a "bad idea".

This is 30,000 firearms.

The garbage news site (and that's being nice) seems to be mistaken with their numbers. From the original Reuters article they quoted:

"Of the nearly 30,000 firearms recovered in 2009 and 2010 in Mexico, where gun possession is illegal, some 70 percent were determined to have come from the United States, ATF officials told lawmakers last week."

Not from the ATF, or the US government, but from north of the border in general. Sure it was a stupid move, but I'm with Derf. This is government incompetence, not a conspiracy.

[nhgunnut]

Just a couple of points because this one is close to my heart (see my original post on this some time ago.
They have records supplied by a whistle blowing ATF Agent 1800 "Assault Weapon" (Semi Auto firearms capable or using magazines with a capacities of higher than 5 rounds) They also have documentation that the FBI had a paid informant organizing the purchase of these firearms. Apparently using tax payer dollars. Further documentation indicates that DEA supplied intelligence on who to contact in Mexico to set up the sale of the weapons the FBI arranged the purchase of here in the states
We have 3 Federal Law Enforcement Agencies all who answer to AG Eric Holder working either in concert or through "blind coincidence" to supply weapons to drug cartels inside of Mexico.
This has resulted in the death of at least one US law enforcement officer ICE Officer Brian Terry and while not yet fully document apparently deaths of hundred of Mexican Citizens.
There are also letters indicating the Department of Justice , (again Eric Holder) has ordered that people not cooperate with the congressional investigation either by not appearing or by refusing to supply subpoenaed evidence.
Those are the the facts as they are currently documented as reported by ABC, CBS, BBC, and FOX.
Now acknowledging my pro Second Amendment bias, I can not help but suspect this has far more to do with legitimizing further attacks on the Second Amendment then any attempt at law enforcement.
Regardless of my supposition the facts at hand appear to Demand either the the resignation of Eric Holder for either a rather Convenient and Gross Incompetence , or Criminal Conspiracy to sell weapons to Narco Terrorists. ( again there is documentation that 4 agencies under his control acted to buy weapons and smuggle them to Mexican Drug Gangs, and are now trying to conceal there participation in the plot) whether this is Criminal or simple Incompetence Mr Holder needs to be removed.

[Rangerscott]

I dont find this shocking since this is just a repeat of whst the gov has done numerous times before and will continue to do so.

[101lifts2]

I can't speculate properly on why this happened. I suspect it isn't out of kindness, and goodwill, however...

You can believe whatever you want, Ms. Riding Hood.

How come when the government forces Health Care it's "for the good of the people", but when they try to track down where firearms are going to drug cartels "it's rediculous"? It's really all in the name of money transfer. I'm not so sure the U.S. government wants the drug cartels to vanish off the earth.

I'm siding with Derf on this one, though. It's makes logical sense (for the grunts (ATF/FBI)) to infiltrate these cartels by supplying guns to see where they end up. However, if you don't have a foolproof way to track them, sending 10k guns out isn't such a good idea.

[Mikey]

Before the operation was revealed, the anti-gun lobby was screaming that legally-purchased American guns were in the hands of Mexican gangs. There were calls for tighter gun laws across the board.

We have a liberal Chicago Democrat in the White House, and an AG that he appointed.

I realize that this whole thing sounds a bit tin-foil hat, but I don't think it's unreasonable to hypothesize that this was another gun-grabbing attempt. It was actually gaining some traction, too; until a whistleblower revealed the government operation behind the whole thing.

['73 H1 Triple]

Before the operation was revealed, the anti-gun lobby was screaming that legally-purchased American guns were in the hands of Mexican gangs. There were calls for tighter gun laws across the board.

We have a liberal Chicago Democrat in the White House, and an AG that he appointed.

I realize that this whole thing sounds a bit tin-foil hat, but I don't think it's unreasonable to hypothesize that this was another gun-grabbing attempt. It was actually gaining some traction, too; until a whistleblower revealed the government operation behind the whole thing.

It is a failed attempt to further erode the 2nd Amendment.

They forced certain gun shop owners to sell the firearms to known straw purchasers even though they reported then to the BATFE

It wouldn't surprise if the corruption went all the way to the top.

[Kaneman]

It wouldn't surprise if the corruption went all the way to the top.

You think Exxon is behind this?

[defector]

You think Exxon is behind this?

Walmart.

[Captain Morgan]

It is a failed attempt to further erode the 2nd Amendment.

They forced certain gun shop owners to sell the firearms to known straw purchasers even though they reported then to the BATFE

It wouldn't surprise if the corruption went all the way to the top.

what about having to register to purchase ammo? They don't have to take away guns, all they have to do is control and limit the distribution of ammo.

[Mikey]

what about having to register to purchase ammo? They don't have to take away guns, all they have to do is control and limit the distribution of ammo.

Yeah, like the state of Illinois. What was that about a Chicago Demecrat in the White House, again?

[nhgunnut]

How come when the government forces Health Care it's "for the good of the people", but when they try to track down where firearms are going to drug cartels "it's rediculous"? It's really all in the name of money transfer. I'm not so sure the U.S. government wants the drug cartels to vanish off the earth.

I'm siding with Derf on this one, though. It's makes logical sense (for the grunts (ATF/FBI)) to infiltrate these cartels by supplying guns to see where they end up. However, if you don't have a foolproof way to track them, sending 10k guns out isn't such a good idea.
The did not track down a network, they created a network to move guns into mexico (BTW the figure even at wholesale prices is well north of 100k) This has all the earmarks of setting up a crime network to prove there is a crime network.

[tallywacker]

I blame Obama

[Twobanger]

Its simple. They did this to further the meme that Mexican cartels as a rule are being armed by American civilian market guns in order to make it easier to make "sensible restrictions" more palatable to the general public.

US guns are stamped with serial numbers and imported guns are stamped by/for the importer before being sent to distributors. The Mexicans only send guns to be traced that are likely to be from here; so while President Obama claims 90% of guns recovered by Mexican officials are from the US civilian market, as real percentage of total guns recovered, that number is only around 17%.

I would guess that the vast majority of American guns that do make their way to Mexico come from people safeguarding drug money back to Mexico and aren't trafficked specifically.

FWIW, news is coming out that the ATF office in Florida was running guns to Honduras under the name "Operation Castaway".

[fujimoh]

Read and pay attention to history google Iran/Contra

And more recent history, Bush the second got into the act. Google Merida Initiative. Then ask yourself how much of the 1.5 Billion in military aid was diverted to the cartels.


The government has been selling weapons to our enemies for decades. This time it is with the intention to convince the sheeple that the US Senate should ratify the UN Small Arms treaty, so they can nullify through treaty(second amendment) what they know they can't get passed through Congress

[Avatard]

They get us coming and going. They use tax money to give weapons to cartels, and then use tax money to fight the war on drugs, and then use tax money to punish our own people, and house them in prison farms, supposedly all in the name of the "War On Drugs".

...When in fact, it's a war on the people of this country, and a war on our wallets.

The war on drugs isn't working, and it's created a corrupt system that is costing us BILLIONS, and a great deal of International goodwill, and domestic tranquility.

Time to stop the war.

[udman]

Holder Lied: DOJ News Release Shows Obama Admin Approved ATF Mexico Weapons Smuggling
Tim King Salem-News.com

Eric Holder gave false info. to a Congressional Committee last May about ATF operations tied to the deaths of two U.S. Agents; we have the proof.
Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and Special Agent Jaime Zapata from ICE
Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and Special Agent Jaime Zapata from ICE both died from weapons that were sent to Mexico from the United States. There is no knowledge as to how many lives the U.S. weapons smuggling programs claimed in Mexico.

(SALEM, Ore.) - New information indicates that U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder's actions are squarely behind the ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) operation known as "Fast and Furious", which orchestrated the delivery of almost 2,000 weapons to Mexican drug cartels[1].

Holder openly proclaimed his connection to the operation in April 2009 during a publicized speech in Mexico, then told a Congressional Committee in May 2011, "I probably heard of Fast and Furious the first time in the last few weeks."[2]

The ATF weapons smuggling ring involved the arrest of several government officials with the city of Columbus, New Mexico including the mayor and police chief, but that is all[3].

They were apparently known from the beginning and the weapons deals with 'straw buyers' were videotaped. Smuggled U.S. weapons from this operation, described as mostly semi automatic versions of military weapons like the AK-47, were found to be used in the shooting deaths of two U.S. federal agents.

The new information, which is not really new at all, proves that Holder had to be aware of the U.S. government weapons smuggling operation planned and implemented by federal agents from ATF which he denied to Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA) less than two months ago, as detailed below.

Background on Fast and Furious 'Gunrunner' Operation

As we have reported with the help of our Photojournalist Robert Plumlee, who is a former CIA asset, we know that around 1,800 weapons were funneled through the Chaparral Gun Store in Chaparral, New Mexico, and into the hands of the murderous cartels. As referenced, the gun shop was directly tied to the mayor, police chief and city council of Columbus, New Mexico, a town famous for the Pancho Villa border raids a century before[4].

Weapons from the ATF Gunrunner or Gunwalker scheme as it came to be known, were recovered from the desert where U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry died in a shootout with cartel members. A U.S. gun that allegedly was smuggled into Mexico from Dallas, Texas, was used to murder an Immigration Customs Enforcement Agent named Jaime Zapata[5].

Considering how big of a problems guns and violence already are in Mexico, it should be a mystery how this U.S. / Mexico weapons smuggling program was ever launched, and according to Holder's earlier testimony, included in our report, Feds Call Meeting with Journalist Who Reported Human Remains and Cartel Weapon Build up with U.S. Ties, it is a mystery[6].

This is official sworn testimony from Holder, the video is transcribed.

House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa grills Attorney General Eric Holder over Failure and tragedy of 'Operation Fast and Furious'
Issa: "When did you first know about the program, Fast and the Furious? To the best of your knowledge what date?"

Holder: "I'm not sure of the exact date but I probably heard of Fast and Furious the first time in the last few weeks."

Issa: "How about the head of the Criminal Dept. Lanny Brewer, did he authorize it?"

Holder: "I'm not sure whether or not Mr. Brewer authorized it, you have to understand in which the department operations, although there are operations this one has gotten a great deal of publicity".

Issa: "Yeah there are dead Americans as a result of this failed and reckless program. so I would say that it hasn't gotten enough attention, has it Mr. Attorney General?"

Holder: "Not exactly, there is an investigation that is underway You'll have to look at that to see what exactly in regard to..."

Issa: "But Mr. Attorney General..."

Holder: "...I take very seriously, the allegation..."

Issa: "Mr. Attorney General, do you take seriously... Mr. Attorney General, do you take, take seriously a subpoena signed by the Clerk of the House?"

Holder: "Of course".

Issa: "Mr. Attorney General, isn't it true that those cases that will go to trial in June... We have very limited time, sorry, those cases are basically a bunch of meth addicts who did the buying, that you do not have what this program was supposed to produce, you don't have the kingpins, you don't have the places it went, what you have are the people you already had on videotape many, many months before indictments were brought, isn't this true?"

Holder: "There are cases that are important that we are tying to bring that we want to try successfully and they are part of a scheme they are part of a scheme. You can't look at an individual case as an individual matter and think it's unimportant because small cases lead to larger ones."

Issa: "We're looking at you, straw purchasers, we're looking at you, and you're key people who knew or should have known about this, and whether or not your judgment was consistent with good practices and whether or not, instead, the Justice Dept. is basically guilty of allowing weapons to kill Americans and Mexicans. So will you agree to cooperate with that investigation both on the House and Senate side?"

Holder: "We'll certainly cooperate with all of the investigations but I take great exception to what you just said; the notion that somehow or another, this Justice Dept. is responsible for those deaths that you mentioned, uh... that assertion's offensive. and I want to tell you that..."

Issa: "What if it's accurate?"

Holder: "...it is the policy of the Justice Dept. to make sure that we do all that we can to protect law enforcement agents, it is one of the reasons we have tried to look at a whole variety of methods and techniques we can use to protect the lives of law enforcement agents, it is something this country is not focused enough on."

Issa: "What am I gonna tell Agent Terry's mother about how he died at the end of a gun that was videotaped as it was sold to a straw purchaser fully intending and expecting it to end up in the hands of drug cartels?"

Holder: "Well, one; you know we'll have to see exactly what happened with regards to the guns that are at issue there. And... (pause) I've attended funerals you know. it's something that, you know it isn't theoretical, this is not political, it is extremely real for me as Attorney General..."

Issa: "It is for us too"[7] .

An article published Friday, 8 July 2011, The Stimulation of Murder, by Investor's Business Daily, explained that A.G. Holder was, in spite of his denial, fully aware of the ATF's gun-running to Mexico operations, to the point that it was fully disclosed in President Barack Obama's Stimulus Bill.

"Right there in the stimulus bill that no one in Congress bothered to read is $10 million for Project Gunrunner (aka Operation Fast and Furious), which resulted in the death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and increased drug cartel violence", the article stated[8][9].

Attorney General Eric Holder's direct denial of knowledge of this as shown above, to Congress, could and possibly should be his downfall. Rather than relying on the blog article, I simply copied the words and dropped them into Google. Lo and behold, Holder's 2009 speech in Mexico from the Dept. of Justice...

Attorney General Eric Holder at the Mexico/United States Arms Trafficking Conference in CUERNAVACA, MEXICO Thursday, April 2, 2009

Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels. My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion. DHS is making similar commitments, as Secretary Napolitano will detail.

But as today’s conference has emphasized, the problem of arms trafficking will not be stopped at the border alone. Rather, as our experts emphasized, this is a problem that must be met as part of a comprehensive attack against the cartels – an attack in depth, on both sides of the border, that focuses on the leadership and assets of the cartel...[2]

Special Agent Jaime Zapata was shot and killed outside of Mexico City, Mexico.

He and another agent assigned to the United States Embassy and were traveling between Mexico City and Monterrey when they were forced off the road by 10 members of a Mexican drug cartel. The agents were in an armored vehicle with diplomatic plates and identified themselves as diplomats.

The cartel members opened fire on them, fatally wounding Agent Zapata and wounding the second agent.

Several members of the drug cartel were apprehended in Mexico and face charges in connection with Special Agent Zapata's murder.

Special Agent Zapata had served with ICE for four years and had previously served with the United States Border Patrol for just under one year. He is survived by his parents and four brothers, two of whom also serve as federal agents. Source: ODMP Remembers;...

As if the information isn't bad enough, one of our reporters who has spent the last three years working on the border, gathering information on the narco cartels, Robert 'Tosh' Plumlee; blew the whistle on both the gun walking operation, by filing reports to several federal agencies well before Brian Terry's death, and also on a number of bodies in the desert on the U.S. side that officials in New Mexico refuse to investigate. These bodies, mostly skeletal remains, have been fully photographed and documented with a GPS (Global Positioning System) locator by Mr. Plumlee[6].

Also, as revealed in our recent reports, there are major stores in Mexico of what Robert Plumlee refers to as, 'high impact weapons' which include anti-aircraft guns, rocket propelled grenade launchers and mortars. These weapons are of U.S. origin, they are ample and they include the latest and most deadly, the same high tech weaponry currently deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. While not fully tallied, there are reported sites where thousands and thousands of these weapons exist, along with 'knock-off' Mexican army uniforms[11].

He made note of these weapons storage areas while accompanying a recently disclosed U.S./Mexican joint military force that has been battling the cartels south of the U.S. border since 2009. Even reports about this task force were vehemently denied by Mexico, and then later corroborated by a Wikileaks cable[12][13][14].

Not only are we dealing with official, approved U.S. government weapons smuggling programs, undisclosed U.S./Mexican military anti-narco operations, and hardcore lies from the very top of the U.S. governmental structure; it also seems that there is an overriding motivator for destabilizing the U.S. southern border, and in essence extending the need for both the U.S. and Mexican 'wars on drugs'[13][14][15].

Many may ask, why now... why this? What possible reason would justify shipping weapons to 'trace' in Mexico that have no navigational or homing devices? For those who don't know, more than 40,000 people have been murdered in Mexico since the launch of Calderon's drug war.

This is not to say that the Mexican President is not sincere. In fact by most accounts, Calderon is truly trying to help his country that does have a history of corruption, gain the upper hand over the cartels and end the rampant crime.

As we suggested in the article, Is Los Zetas Military Cartel Planning a Bloody Revolution in Mexico?, the push is on for control of Mexico and Los Zetas, a cartel that began three years ago when its founders split away from the Mexican Army Special Forces, 'Los Zetas', is moving toward a full-scale revolution. Robert Plumlee believes the outcome of the 2012 Mexican elections will determine that outcome. Either way, the end results do not look good, particularly with major supplies of brand new U.S. weapons in the Zetas' control.

The Money Trail

Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was shot and killed near Rio Rico, Arizona, while attempting to apprehend a group of armed subjects. The suspects had been preying on illegal immigrants with the intent to rob them.

Agent Terry and several other agents were attempting to arrest the group when shots were exchanged between the suspects and agents. Agent Terry was struck in the pelvis by a round fired by a suspect armed with an AK-47.

The wounded agent was flown to a hospital where he succumbed early the following morning.

Four members of the group were taken into custody and at least one suspect remains at large.

Agent Terry was a U.S. Marine Corps veteran and had served with the United States Border Patrol for 3.5 years. He had previously served as a police officer with the Lincoln Park, Michigan, Police Department. He is survived by his parents, brother, two sisters, five nieces, and one nephew.
Officer Down Memorial Page

Los Zetas does not want the drug war to end. They are known for entering drug rehab facilities in Mexico and killing every single person in the building. The end of the drug war would lead to legalization of marijuana as a health treatment on a federal level and this move would devastate the current U.S. pharmaceutical industry. This is the industry that by all logic, would least benefit from an end to the drug wars. This is very likely why Eric Holder reversed the federal government's position last week on state laws over medical marijuana. He says the feds are going to increasingly bust medical cannabis users and program, regardless of state law, as federal law never made any real concessions.

With the government refocusing enforcing laws against sick people who use marijuana, and delivering deadly weapons to Mexico, one of our writers has been causing significant problems for one of the nation's top pharmaceutical companies.

Our writer Marianne Skolek, who lost her daughter to an Oxycontin-related respiratory failure, has been a thorn in the side of Purdue Pharmaceuticals for years, writing articles that continually expose the practices of this company that has been exposed for very serious criminal behavior.

Aided by Marianne's testimony, along with that of others who lost family members to Oxycontin, two U.S. Attorneys convicted several top level Purdue executives for falsely advertising the drug as both non-lethal and non-addictive. That may stand as one of the most outrageous claims ever made by a supposedly legitimate U.S. business.

The connection is that long before Eric Holder was lying to Congress over the U.S. role in Border Patrol and Immigration Customs Enforcement agent's deaths tied to U.S. supplied weapons in Mexico, he was one of a lawyer for Purdue, at this dark point in their business history.

In the article, Eric Holder negotiated an OxyContin settlement in West Virginia - working for Purdue Pharma!, Ms. Skolek reveals how Holder not only shielded Purdue over falsely advertising the drug Oxycontin which has led to tens of thousands of related deaths, but also how his actions in arranging a settlement actually allowed the drug to become the epidemic it is. That is serious.

In 2001, West Virginia Attorney General Darrell McGraw Jr., filed a civil case against Purdue Pharma alleging that the privately held pharmaceutical company had engaged in "coercive and deceptive" marketing of OxyContin. He alleged that Purdue used misleading advertisements and had promoted the inappropriate use of OxyContin for minor pain. His lawsuit further stated that Purdue had offered doctors free trips to “pain management” seminars where the firm pitched the drug as safe and effective for treating minor pain – without mentioning the drug was supposed to be used only for severe pain and easily abused.

McGraw also alleged that Purdue had told “pharmacists that they can get in trouble if they do not fill prescriptions, even if they believe someone may be an abuser of the drug.”

The lawsuit was a big worry to Purdue because they had a lot to lose financially, and that is why they turned to Eric Holder, an attorney with Covington and Burling in Washington, D.C.

As Marianne wrote in her article:

The morning the case was to go to trial, in November 2004, Holder helped negotiate a settlement. Working in the judge’s chambers in West Virginia, he put together an agreement under which the firm would have to pay $10 million over four years into drug abuse and education programs in West Virginia -- and Purdue Pharma would not have to admit any wrongdoing!

Eric Holder managed to keep the criminal activity of Purdue Pharma quiet since there would be no trial and no documents or testimony to be made public. Did Holder's "hands in the pockets of Purdue Pharma" allow this epidemic of OxyContin death and addiction throughout the country to perpetuate? Many people think it did [16].

It seems clear that there are competing factions in the U.S. government and while there are positive motivations in some cases, there are other motivations that are highly detrimental to the future of both countries. Holder seems to be at the center of this.

There are reports of cartels financing U.S. politicians who have ties to the pharmaceutical industry. There are extremely solid reports of caches of large amounts of weapons that are too vast to have "fallen off the back of a truck".

What is lacking is a direct trail on the campaign contributions. It seems AG Holder has demonstrated for the record that he is not willing to tell the truth when under direct examination, and also that he prefers to see companies like Purdue avoid legal responsibility. I don't know what could be more significant when dealing with a lighted fuse situation like the border wars raging along the border that divides the United States and Mexico.

[Homeslice]

Please explain how a gun dealer can be "forced" to sell to a certain customer.

[Twobanger]

Gun dealers operate at the whim of the ATF. A dealer calls them them to report a possible straw buyer and are told to sell to them anyway, you don't think they're going to tell the government to FOAD do you?

[Homeslice]

Gun dealers operate at the whim of the ATF. A dealer calls them them to report a possible straw buyer and are told to sell to them anyway, you don't think they're going to tell the government to FOAD do you?

So the ATF is going to follow up and make sure he sells to that customer? I don't get it.

[Twobanger]

On another forum I'm on "this thread" has 4700+ posts in it and and posters that work for Heller and the 2nd Amendment Foundation. I asked your question there and this was the answer given: To set the tone let me first say that ATF regulates these FFLs, they hold their very livelyhood in the balance. Deny them at your peril.

When a law enforcement org asks for "assistance" most folks want to help. I doubt the FFLs were told the guns would make it very far before a bust was made. When a Phx FFL wanted to 'opt out', they were asked to come to a meeting w/ ATF.....and they were asked to NOT bring a lawyer. It is pretty well accepted that at that meeting the FFL was brought on board as an official paid confidintial informant.

Don't let folks try to pin this on FFLs that thought they were assisting in a legitimate .gov LEO operation.




knowing how the ATF operates, it is pretty safe to assume that they told the ffls if you dont go along with this, we will audit you till we find viloations and put you out of buisness and possibly trump up charges to imprison said ffls. This is not a above board agency and have a history of makeing evidence fit so they can get convictions.


I know a FFL that helped and the ONLY reason hey sold the Barrett M82's to the fishy customer (while ATF video taped the deal) was because they were PROMISED the guns wouldn't;t get more then 1-2 miles from their front door. They didn't find out until a couple days later that they didn't intercept the guns. That was the last time they helped the ATF

[Twobanger]

Basically the ATF told the FFLs that they were helping them catch illegal gun traffickers to get them to allow the sale of guns to suspicious buyers and then later burned them by naming them as the source of the guns going to Mexico.

[nhgunnut]

Please explain how a gun dealer can be "forced" to sell to a certain customer.
The ATF can also "Inspect and Verify" you inventory impound anything you have in bonded storage such asses legally imported inventory. Since you have to call them they can move all of your sales into the 72 hour line. Annoy them enough they can conduct an open investigation where they begin to question your neighbors , if you rent your landlord and his insurance company.
I think it is important that having dealt with the ATF over the years that I have found the individual agents to be Professional People of Integrity. It was after all a ATF Agent that blew the whistle on this insanity. The Agency itself has no oversight or procedural code of conduct. So for the individual or business dealing with the ATF the Agency can act in a manner that makes the IRS seem Gracious and Charming.
The people running this operation used that power to force legitimate firearms dealers to sell to people the merchants were reporting as straw buyers and criminals.

[fujimoh]

TwoBanger is correct, the ATF is just as big a bully as the IRS. Because the average citizen rarely deals with BATFE they don't see the horror stories of what happens to people who say NO to them

[RACER X]

lookie lookie

a new law to track multiple gun purchases

http://www.click2houston.com/news/28516485/detail.html

"Texas, 3 Other States Under New Gun Buying Rule"

"The rule requires gun dealers in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California to gather, and report to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the personal information of anyone buying multiple semi-automatic rifles greater than 22-caliber with a detachable magazine."

[nhgunnut]

lookie lookie

a new law to track multiple gun purchases

http://www.click2houston.com/news/28516485/detail.html

"Texas, 3 Other States Under New Gun Buying Rule"

"The rule requires gun dealers in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California to gather, and report to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the personal information of anyone buying multiple semi-automatic rifles greater than 22-caliber with a detachable magazine."
It is Not a law it is a Decree or Directive (no legislature voted, no head of an executive branched formally signed a law)and illustrates quite clearly how capriciously This agency can be. After forcing law abiding merchants to skirt or break the law, they institute costly policies that have no value or impact on public safety.
Arrest Holder now.

[udman]

U.S. urged dealer to continue gun sales despite concerns, inquiry finds

The Arizona gun dealer repeatedly raised red flags about weapons ending up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels as part of Project Gunrunner, but his concerns were brushed aside, congressional investigators say.

April 15, 2011|By Kim Murphy, Los Angeles Times

The investigation into a federal operation that allowed Mexican drug cartels to acquire U.S. weapons escalated Thursday with new revelations that an Arizona gun dealer repeatedly expressed fears that his guns were falling into the "hands of the bad guys" but was encouraged by federal agents to continue the sales.

A series of emails released by congressional investigators showed that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives encouraged the gun dealer against his better judgment to sell high-powered weapons to buyers he believed were agents for the drug cartels.

Employees of the dealer videotaped gun buyers — suspected "straw purchasers" who could legally buy the guns, though cartel members could not — exchanging money with other individuals on the dealer's premises.

The aim of the ATF program, called Project Gunrunner, was to gather intelligence on suspicious weapons sales and arrest senior members of international trafficking chains.

In an eerie case of premonition, the gun dealer expressed fears that the guns he was selling could be used against U.S. border agents.

"I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys," the dealer, who has not been named, wrote in June 2010 to David Voth, the lead ATF case agent in Phoenix. "I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents' safety, because I have some very close friends that are U.S. Border Patrol agents in southern AZ."

Three guns sold to suspects who were part of Project Gunrunner have since turned up at the scenes of the deaths of two U.S. agents — in the Mexican state of San Luis Potosi and near the Mexican border in Arizona.

"Not only were the ATF agents who later blew the whistle [on the investigation] predicting that this operation would end in tragedy, so were the gun dealers — even as ATF urged them to make the sales," Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said in a letter with the new emails to Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr.

The Justice Department in its only official response to the congressional inquiry denied that the ATF "sanctioned" or "otherwise knowingly allowed" the sale of assault weapons to straw purchasers, who then transported them to Mexico.

The new emails suggest that the Arizona gun dealer was seeking assurances from the ATF and the U.S. attorney's office that the company would not be held responsible if someone got hurt with guns that ended up in the hands of gunrunners.

Voth, the ATF agent, wrote to the dealer: "I understand that the frequency with which some individuals under investigation by our office have been purchasing firearms from your business has caused concerns for you. … However, if it helps put you at ease we (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into [in] detail."

News reports in June 2010 that guns purchased in the U.S. were being found at Mexican crime scenes prompted the dealer to again express concerns.

"I shared my concerns with you guys that I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys," the dealer wrote, adding that the reports are "disturbing."

On "one or two" occasions when the dealer's employees videotaped a suspected straw purchaser exchanging money with another person, the ATF urged that the sale go forward, but the employees refused, Grassley said in his letter.

"In light of this new evidence, the Justice Department's claim that the ATF never knowingly sanctioned or allowed the sale of assault weapons to straw purchasers is simply not credible," Grassley wrote.

Thousands of guns were sold to straw purchasers under Project Gunrunner. The ATF has acknowledged that at least 195 U.S. firearms sold to suspected straw purchasers have been recovered in Mexico, but agents have said thousands slipped outside ATF oversight.

[Homeslice]

ATF head reassigned in wake of 'Fast and Furious' controversy

Washington (CNN) -- Kenneth Melson, the acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives who came under criticism for the "Fast and Furious" operation involving illegal weapons sales, is being reassigned to the Justice Department as a senior adviser on forensic issues, the department announced Tuesday.

The announcement said that B. Todd Jones, a U.S. attorney from Minnesota, will become the acting director of ATF starting Wednesday.

Operation Fast and Furious allowed thousands of heavy-duty assault-type weapons to be illegally purchased. In the operation, "straw buyers" -- people who buy the weapons for others who might not legally be allowed to buy them -- were allowed to purchase illegally large numbers of weapons, some of which ended up in the hands of cartels in Mexico.

The operation has come under intense criticism since the December killing of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in Arizona. Two weapons that were allowed to be sold under the Fast and Furious program were found at the crime scene.

Last month, Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-California, sent letters to agencies including the FBI and Drug Enforcement Administration demanding specific information and documents on the operation.

The letters followed a closed July 4 meeting between investigators and Melson, who sources said implicated FBI and DEA involvement in the controversial firearms purchasing operation.

Federal law enforcement officials familiar with the case said Melson was fighting to keep his job and was unwilling to be a "fall guy" for Operation Fast and Furious.

The letters called for answers to a series of questions about informants, FBI and DEA officials in Arizona and Texas, and the case agent from Tucson in charge of the Terry murder investigation.

The letters also demanded e-mails, memoranda, briefing papers and handwritten notes relating to the operation.

Operation Fast and Furious was "a colossal failure of leadership," Peter Forcelli, an ATF supervisor in Phoenix, has said.

The program focused on following people who legally bought weapons that were then transferred to criminals and destined for Mexico. But instead of intercepting the weapons when they switched hands, Operation Fast and Furious called for ATF agents to let the guns "walk" and wait for them to surface in Mexico, according to a report by the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

The idea was that once the weapons in Mexico were traced back to the straw purchasers, the entire arms smuggling network could be brought down. Instead, the report argues, letting the weapons slip into the wrong hands was a deadly miscalculation that resulted in preventable deaths, including that of Terry.

In Mexico, the case has drawn nationwide attention and sharp criticism from top officials, who have long stressed that U.S. weapons are fueling the country's drug war.

The Mexican attorney general's office demanded a quick U.S. investigation of the matter in March and said authorities must hold accountable anyone who was responsible for the operation.

Melson, who became acting director of ATF in 2009, will focus on policy development in forensic science in his new role with the Office of Legal Policy starting Wednesday, according to a Justice Department statement.

"I want to thank Ken for his dedication to the department over the last three decades," Attorney General Eric Holder said in the statement.

Jones, Melson's successor, is a "seasoned" prosecutor and former military judge advocate "who brings a wealth of experience" to his new position leading ATF, Holder said in the statement. Jones will continue to serve as a U.S. attorney as well, the statement said.

[RACER X]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/30/fast.and.furious.melson/index.html?eref=ib_topstories

ATF head reassigned in wake of 'Fast and Furious' controversy

"In a separate announcement, U.S. Attorney for Arizona Dennis Burke resigned in the aftermath of the operation, which is under congressional scrutiny. Burke's office gave legal guidance to ATF for Operation Fast and Furious."

[Avatard]

http://blog.cleveland.com/ent_impact_people/2009/04/medium_Vin-Diesel-promote-Fast-Furious-Mexico-City-March27-Marco-Ugarte-AP.jpg

[Trip]

I live my life a quarter mile at a time...