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RACER X
09-20-2011, 09:47 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/us/retiree-benefits-for-the-military-could-face-cuts.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all%3Fsrc%3Dtp&smid=fb-share


As Washington looks to squeeze savings from once-sacrosanct entitlements like Social Security and Medicare, another big social welfare system is growing as rapidly, but with far less scrutiny: the health and pension benefits of military retirees.
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Colin Hackley for The New York Times
Steve Griffin left the Army after five years and thus receives no pension. But he believes the system provides incentives for recruitment and rewards retirees who have endured great hardship.
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Military pensions and health care for active and retired troops now cost the government about $100 billion a year, representing an expanding portion of both the Pentagon budget — about $700 billion a year, including war costs — and the national debt, which together finance the programs.

Making even incremental reductions to military benefits is typically a doomed political venture, given the public’s broad support for helping troops, the political potency of veterans groups and the fact that significant savings take years to appear.

But the intense push in Congress this year to reduce the debt and the possibility that the Pentagon might have to begin trimming core programs like weapons procurement, research, training and construction have suddenly made retiree benefits vulnerable, military officials and experts say.

And if Congress fails to adopt the deficit-reduction recommendations of a bipartisan joint Congressional committee this fall, the Defense Department will be required under debt ceiling legislation passed in August to find about $900 billion in savings over the coming decade. Cuts that deep will almost certainly entail reducing personnel benefits for active and retired troops, Pentagon officials and analysts say.

“We’ve got to put everything on the table,” Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta said recently on PBS, acknowledging that he was looking at proposals to rein in pension costs.

Under the current rules, service members who retire after 20 years are eligible for pensions that pay half their salaries for life, indexed for inflation, even if they leave at age 38. They are also eligible for lifetime health insurance through the military’s system, Tricare, at a small fraction of the cost of private insurance, prompting many working veterans to shun employer health plans in favor of military insurance.

Advocates of revamping the systems argue that they are not just fiscally untenable but also unfair.

The annual fee for Tricare Prime, an H.M.O.-like program for military retirees, is just $460 for families and has not risen in years, even as health care costs have skyrocketed. Critics of the system say the contribution could be raised substantially and still be far lower than what civilians pay for employer-sponsored health plans, typically about $4,000.

Those critics also argue that under the current rules, 83 percent of former service members receive no pension payments at all — because only veterans with 20 years of service are eligible. Those with 5 or even 15 years are not, even if they did multiple combat tours. Such a structure would be illegal in the private sector, and a company that tried it could be penalized, experts say.

“It cries out for some rationalization,” said Sylvester J. Schieber, a former chairman of the Social Security Advisory Board. “Why should we ask somebody to sustain a system that’s unfair by any other measure in our society?”

But within military circles, and among many members of Congress, the benefits are considered untouchable. Veterans groups and military leaders argue that the system helps retain capable commissioned and noncommissioned officers.

And having volunteered to put their lives at risk, those people deserve higher-quality benefits, supporters argue. The typical beneficiary, they add, is not a general but a retired noncommissioned officer, with an average pension of about $26,000 a year.

“The whole reason military people are willing to pursue a career is because after 20, 30 years of extraordinary sacrifice, there is a package commensurate with that sacrifice upon leaving service,” said Steven P. Strobridge, a retired Air Force colonel who is the director of government relations for the Military Officers Association of America, which is lobbying against changes to the benefits.

A wild-card factor in the debate is the withdrawal of American troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, which some experts say could avoid the stigma of cutting benefits while troops are at war.

“The fact that you are getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan does make it easier,” said Lawrence J. Korb, a senior Pentagon official in the Reagan administration who was a co-author of a recent proposal for reducing the cost of military health care. “When the war in Iraq was in terrible shape, it was hard to get people to join the military, and no one wanted to touch any military benefits.”

By far the most contentious proposal circulating in Washington is from a Pentagon advisory panel, the Defense Business Board. It would make the military pension system, a defined benefit plan, more like a 401(k) plan under which the Pentagon would make contributions to a service member’s individual account; contributions by the troops themselves would be optional. Mr. Panetta has said that if adopted, the plan would not apply to current military personnel.

While health care costs for active and retired troops are growing faster, military pension costs are larger. Last year, for every dollar the Pentagon paid service members, it spent an additional $1.36 for its military retirees, a much smaller group. Even in the troubled world of state and municipal pension funds, pensions almost never cost more than payrolls.
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Citing the fiscal hazards and inequities of the system, the Defense Business Board proposal would allow soldiers with less than 20 years of service to leave with a small nest egg, provided they served a minimum length of time, three to five years. But it would prevent all retirees from receiving benefits until they were 60.

The business board says that its proposal would reduce the plan’s total liabilities to $1.8 trillion by 2034, from the $2.7 trillion now projected — all without cutting benefits for current service members.

Steve Griffin of Tallahassee, Fla., is the type of soldier the defense board is trying to appeal to: a former captain who did two tours in Iraq, he left the Army in 2010 after five years of service and thus receives no pension.

Yet in a sign of the deep support for the existing system, Mr. Griffin says it should be left alone because it provides incentives for recruitment and rewards retirees who have endured great hardship.

“Yes, it would be nice for people like me,” Mr. Griffin, 28, said of the proposal. “But I think the retirement system now is fair. We shouldn’t take anything from it. If anything, we should add to it.”

Much like in the debate over Social Security, questions about the sustainability of the military pension system abound.

Each year the Defense and Treasury Departments set aside more than $75 billion to pay not only current and future benefits but also pensions for service many years in the past. But the retirement fund has not accumulated nearly enough money to cover its total costs, with assets of $278 billion at the end of 2009 and obligations of about $1.4 trillion.

The government tries to close the shortfall by simply issuing more Treasury securities each year, thereby adding to the nation’s debt.

Given the political potency of veterans groups, it is unclear whether anyone in Congress will lead an effort to revamp the pension or retiree health systems.

But the debt ceiling agreement approved this summer by Congress, under which the Pentagon must find $400 billion in reductions over the next 12 years, may force cuts once considered unthinkable. And if Congress does not adopt the recommendations of the bipartisan committee studying deficit reduction, the mandated reductions in Pentagon spending would more than double, to about $900 billion, and fall on just about every category of defense spending.

Deficit hawks, led by Senator Tom Coburn, Republican of Oklahoma, have begun taking smaller steps, pushing for an array of cuts to military benefits, including ending subsidies for base commissaries and tightening disability compensation for diseases linked to Agent Orange.

But those trims are considered marginal compared with the deeper reductions many experts say are necessary to contain Pentagon spending.

“If the trend continues, it will call into question the military’s ability to do other things, like buy equipment, do maintenance, train troops and equip them,” said Nora Bensahel, a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security, a nonprofit organization with ties to the Obama administration.

“At some point, the cost pressures by the retirement benefits will really start to impede military capabilities.”

shmike
09-20-2011, 10:22 AM
Cue the outrage.

But the debt ceiling agreement approved this summer by Congress, under which the Pentagon must find $400 billion in reductions over the next 12 years, may force cuts once considered unthinkable.

Never thought of before.

Ever.

Trip
09-20-2011, 10:36 AM
Send them to a 401k plan. We just cannot support pensions anymore, in any form or fashion.

fujimoh
09-20-2011, 02:05 PM
I would cut foods stamps, unemployment, and fire half the federal bureaucrats before I cut military benefits.

Cut the military hardware and base budgets before you even consider cutting soldiers' benefits. There has been an implied contract between the people of the United States and ours soldiers LONG before any of the entitlement programs were created.

Trip
09-20-2011, 02:31 PM
Good luck getting congress to reduce their pension/health insurance. They need to cut that golden parachute crap. Seriously, how did anyone get in control of their own pay?

askmrjesus
09-20-2011, 03:46 PM
Send them to a 401k plan. We just cannot support pensions anymore, in any form or fashion.

I'm all for the 401k or something similar for future vets, but changing the rules in the middle of the game is bullshit.

The Pentagon needs to stop spending money on planes that don't fly, and boats that don't float.

JC

101lifts2
09-20-2011, 03:58 PM
Well....only people that are in longer than 20 years get retirement and the article says they make 26k a year on avg.? lol

This government needs to quit pouring billons upon billons of dollars in unnecessary wars, nation building, propping up dicators and policiing the world. Then can we pay our people who risk their lives more than 26k a year after 20 years of service. What a fucking joke...

Trip
09-20-2011, 05:39 PM
I'm all for the 401k or something similar for future vets, but changing the rules in the middle of the game is bullshit.

The Pentagon needs to stop spending money on planes that don't fly, and boats that don't float.

JC

It said they wouldn't touch people who are on the old plan. That's typical, TVA is just like that. The older employees are pensioners and the new employees are 401k. The only problem is the last older guys are going to get fucked when their pension plan runs out and no one else is paying into it.

Trip
09-20-2011, 05:40 PM
Well....only people that are in longer than 20 years get retirement and the article says they make 26k a year on avg.? lol

This government needs to quit pouring billons upon billons of dollars in unnecessary wars, nation building, propping up dicators and policiing the world. Then can we pay our people who risk their lives more than 26k a year after 20 years of service. What a fucking joke...

I wonder how many of those that are over 20 years are combat vets as well. Like say if clerks have a higher percentage of staying over 20 vs a combat vet that may leave before they even reach 10.

Homeslice
09-20-2011, 05:59 PM
I wonder how many of those that are over 20 years are combat vets as well. Like say if clerks have a higher percentage of staying over 20 vs a combat vet that may leave before they even reach 10.

Excellent point

MILK
09-20-2011, 09:08 PM
i would cut foods stamps, unemployment, and fire half the federal bureaucrats before i cut military benefits.

Cut the military hardware and base budgets before you even consider cutting soldiers' benefits. There has been an implied contract between the people of the united states and ours soldiers long before any of the entitlement programs were created.

this!!

derf
09-20-2011, 10:32 PM
I wonder how many of those that are over 20 years are combat vets as well. Like say if clerks have a higher percentage of staying over 20 vs a combat vet that may leave before they even reach 10.

In the last 10 years the number of retirees who are combat vets is probably in the mid to upper 90% range.

One of the things to look at too are the fact that there are a ton of people who started out their careers in combat arms and for whatever reason changed jobs. People with combat arms also have a much higher retention rates than people that start out in non combat arms jobs

fatbuckRTO
09-21-2011, 02:19 PM
In the last 10 years the number of retirees who are combat vets is probably in the mid to upper 90% range.

One of the things to look at too are the fact that there are a ton of people who started out their careers in combat arms and for whatever reason changed jobs. People with combat arms also have a much higher retention rates than people that start out in non combat arms jobsFair points. At the same time, a combat vet and a "combat vet" are two totally different things.

Our COP commander who wrote himself a bronze star for, literally, hiding under a rack during a mortar attack* is a "combat vet." The air force desk jockies claiming PTSD for "living through rocket attacks" on Bagram are "combat vets." The combat vets actually fighting the wars probably make up a significantly lower percentage, though I doubt we'll ever know that number because the military bean counters don't make the distinction.

For the record, I am not a combat vet and will never claim to be, even though I'm technically a "combat vet."



*Not how the write-up was phrased. Pure comedy, that write-up... ETA: He'll probably retire a colonel or general, at least.

Trip
09-21-2011, 02:52 PM
20 years is a long time to go to qualify for retirement. Some of those guys that have to get out early really qualify for nothing? Some sort of 401k should be an option and give em like the typical 3-5 years to get vested.

Homeslice
09-21-2011, 03:08 PM
In the last 10 years the number of retirees who are combat vets is probably in the mid to upper 90% range.

90% ?

I guess if you count the mere fact of being stationed in a combat theatre, even if it was nowhere near the actual combat :lol:

derf
09-21-2011, 03:36 PM
90% ?

I guess if you count the mere fact of being stationed in a combat theatre, even if it was nowhere near the actual combat :lol:

If you guys are looking at making the distinction between a combat vet and a trigger puller then I would bet that the number of people who deploy and actually take and return fire is close to 40%. I would also be willing to bet that the 40% who are the trigger pullers are more likely to stay in for a longer period of time

derf
09-21-2011, 03:42 PM
20 years is a long time to go to qualify for retirement. Some of those guys that have to get out early really qualify for nothing? Some sort of 401k should be an option and give em like the typical 3-5 years to get vested.

Yup if you get out after your 3-5 years there are no monetary advantages, however you do get to keep a number of benefits, plus your military time can be put towards a civilian gov job for both time and pay, as well as education benefits, plus a whole bunch of other stuff.

but yeh you can stay in for any period of time up to 18 years and get out with nothing. Once you hit 18 years you are automatically locked in for the full 20.

And no a 401k would be shit compared to what they are giving me now, the retirement I already worked 14 years towards.

MILK
09-21-2011, 03:54 PM
Yup if you get out after your 3-5 years there are no monetary advantages, however you do get to keep a number of benefits, plus your military time can be put towards a civilian gov job for both time and pay, as well as education benefits, plus a whole bunch of other stuff.

but yeh you can stay in for any period of time up to 18 years and get out with nothing. Once you hit 18 years you are automatically locked in for the full 20.

And no a 401k would be shit compared to what they are giving me now, the retirement I already worked 14 years towards.

Yea I wouldn't want to trade a pension for a 401k. Twenty years isn't that long at all. I'm 41 and have 16 years with my company. No pension, just 401k.

Cutty72
09-22-2011, 09:18 AM
Yup if you get out after your 3-5 years there are no monetary advantages, however you do get to keep a number of benefits, plus your military time can be put towards a civilian gov job for both time and pay, as well as education benefits, plus a whole bunch of other stuff.

but yeh you can stay in for any period of time up to 18 years and get out with nothing. Once you hit 18 years you are automatically locked in for the full 20.

And no a 401k would be shit compared to what they are giving me now, the retirement I already worked 14 years towards.

Everyone also has the option of putting money into the Thrift Savings, which is essentially a 401K.

shmike
09-22-2011, 09:43 AM
Everyone also has the option of putting money into the Thrift Savings, which is essentially a 401K.

Pension + TSP > 401k

Trip
09-22-2011, 10:28 AM
Yeah, 401k's aren't as good, but we can't afford pensions. Pensions were an awesome idea for workers, shitty way to actually run a sustainable retirement plan.

Apoc
09-22-2011, 07:04 PM
Dear vets. We have destroyed the country you fought to protect, and now we want back the money you earned. Thank you.

Cutty72
09-22-2011, 11:39 PM
Hey, the Canadian gets it, why can't we? :lol:

Tmall
09-23-2011, 12:39 PM
Dear vets. We have destroyed the country you fought to protect, and now we want back the money you earned. Thank you.

They're doing the same to us up here. Added 5 years to our minimum retirement. Added all kinds of penalties. And they wonder why people are leaving in droves. While the MP's who voted that shit in have a golden parachute and pensions that put an average worker's to shame.

My G.A.F. with the CF is non-existent. I can't wait to pull the plug and get a real job.

Amorok
10-01-2011, 08:42 PM
20 years in the military whether you're in a combat billet or not, is an endurance test. I've done twelve years and if there's not a pension at the end of the next eight I'm cutting and running. I'm getting tired of the government turning it's back on or otherwise betraying it's veterans. Maybe a little fiscal responsibility is a better response to our fiscal difficulties is a better idea than ripping off veterans. And if my pension is such a bad idea then you come out here and do what I do for a living. You're more than welcome to do so for a crappy 401K. And no, people who get out before 20 don't get a pension. If they want one, they're more than welcome to retire and earn it.

101lifts2
10-01-2011, 09:34 PM
I had a pension from General Motors after 7 years, which I bought out for 33 grand (lucky for me because 4 years later they went B.K) in 2004.

I have a 401k now plus a pension from Isuzu, which was 100% vested after 5 years (I've been here 9 years). The pension is fully paid for, not dependant upon future vehicle sales, but currently they are not incressing the funding, so it's been at a standstill for a few years now.

I remember back in the late 90s GM was paying 80% retirement for the combined avg. of your last 5 years of base pay. There were many people making 80-100k a year, retiring at around 60 grand plus whatever they saved in their 401k. Now you know why GM went bankrupt. lol