No American Flags on Cinco de Mayo

[fatbuckRTO]

Court backs Morgan Hill school in flag dispute
Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

San Francisco Chronicle November 12, 2011 04:00 AM

A Morgan Hill high school principal reasonably feared violence on campus when he saw a group of students wearing American flags on their shirts on Cinco de Mayo, and he did not violate their freedom of speech by telling them to turn the shirts inside out or go home, a federal judge has ruled.

Citing past clashes between Mexican American and Anglo students over their clothing on the Mexican holiday, Chief U.S. District Judge James Ware of San Francisco said school officials "reasonably forecast that (the shirts) could cause a substantial disruption" and were entitled to take steps to prevent it.

While the Supreme Court has ruled that public school students have the right to engage in nondisruptive free speech, that ruling "does not require that school officials wait until disruption occurs before they act," Ware said in his ruling Tuesday dismissing the students' lawsuit.

Mark Posard, a lawyer for the Morgan Hill Unified School District, said Friday that Ware's decision "affirmed that school safety is paramount."

Bill Becker, a lawyer for the youths and their parents, said they would appeal "this bizarre ruling."

"The court found that the rights of students promoting their Mexican heritage trumped the rights of students expressing their patriotism," Becker said. If school officials feared disruption, he said, they should have canceled the Cinco de Mayo observance.

The case arose in an ethnically charged atmosphere at Live Oak High School. On the previous Cinco de Mayo, Ware said, a group of Mexican-American students walked around with a Mexican flag, and a group of Anglo students responded by hoisting a makeshift American flag up a tree, chanting "USA" and exchanging profanities and threats with the Latino youths.

When three students showed up on May 5, 2010, with U.S. flag images on their shirts, the judge said, an assistant principal asked them to remove the shirts or turn them inside out, and ordered them to his office when they refused. After a 90-minute session with the students, two others wearing similar shirts and one parent, the principal sent two of the youths home for the day.

Their lawsuit accused school officials of violating the standard that the Supreme Court set in 1969 when it upheld students' right to wear black armbands to class, in a silent protest against the Vietnam War, and said schools can suppress student expression only when it threatens to disrupt the educational process.

The flag-bearing shirts caused no disruption, the students' lawyers said, and school officials were not entitled to interfere just because they believed "the patriotic message may offend some students." They also said the school allowed Mexican-American youths to wear colors of the Mexican flag that day.

But Ware said post-1969 rulings by federal courts have deferred to school officials' conclusions that certain types of student expression could endanger the speakers - for example, decisions by three appellate courts upholding bans on the Confederate flag in schools with histories of racial tension.

Before the Live Oak students were sent home, the judge said, all of them encountered hostility from other students about their clothing, and all acknowledged to the assistant principal that they might be in danger but said they were willing to take their chances.

Ware also rejected the students' claim of discrimination. There was no evidence that youths who wore Mexican flag colors were in danger, he said, and "all students whose safety was in jeopardy were treated equally."

E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com.

This article appeared on page C - 2 of the San Francisco Chronicle



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/11/BA2N1LU0HC.DTL#ixzz1dhlwgCVp

[Smittie61984]

School uniforms would solve all of this shit.

[Homeslice]

Typical.

I wonder what would happen if the situation were reversed: If people wore the Mexican flag on July 4th.

I'll answer it for you: Nothing........ because these days it's hip to pander to Mexico.

[pauldun170]

Before the Live Oak students were sent home, the judge said, all of them encountered hostility from other students about their clothing, and all acknowledged to the assistant principal that they might be in danger but said they were willing to take their chances.

Based on this, I agree with ruling.
Not saying I agree with the way the school handled things or any of the students actions. I just agree with the ruling.

[tommymac]

Typical.

I wonder what would happen if the situation were reversed: If people wore the Mexican flag on July 4th.

I'll answer it for you: Nothing........ because these days it's hip to pander to Mexico.

thats because if you dont the zetas will come up here and decapitate all of us.

[Trip]

School uniforms would solve all of this shit.

Agreed, clothes are too much of a distraction/reason to bully it seems, just put all the kids in the same shit. Problem solved.

[tommymac]

Agreed, clothes are too much of a distraction/reason to bully it seems, just put all the kids in the same shit. Problem solved.

then they will cry about no individuality or self expression.

[Homeslice]

thats because if you dont the zetas will come up here and decapitate all of us.

at the very least we will get accused of racism

[Trip]

then they will cry about no individuality or self expression.

It's school, you are there to get an education, not show people how awesome you are....

[tommymac]

at the very least we will get accused of racism

beats being decapitated LOL

Trip, I agree fo rtoo many its afashion show or to show off status symbols. In BK kids in poor neighborhoods get beaten or killed for wearing too much bling

[Homeslice]

Agreed, clothes are too much of a distraction/reason to bully it seems, just put all the kids in the same shit. Problem solved.

Pregnancy rates would probably go down as well.

[shmike]

You guys claiming that unifroms solve problems don't have a clue.

What if the whiteys wanted to wear a lapel pin on May 5th? We're right back at the same issue.

Homeslice has it right:
Mexican wears Mexican flag 7-4 = no issue.

White kid wears American flag 5-5 = issue.

[defector]

You guys claiming that unifroms solve problems don't have a clue.
What if the whiteys wanted to wear a lapel pin on May 5th? We're right back at the same issue.

Homeslice has it right:


Duh. Fashion! :lol:

[Homeslice]

Duh. Fashion! :lol:

Word.

[pauldun170]

You guys claiming that unifroms solve problems don't have a clue.

What if the whiteys wanted to wear a lapel pin on May 5th? We're right back at the same issue.

Homeslice has it right:
Mexican wears Mexican flag 7-4 = no issue.

White kid wears American flag 5-5 = issue.

Depends on how you look at it.

Kid shows up to school wearing American flag.
No one gives a shit...

Kid comes to School wearing Mexican flag.
No one gives a shit.


Several Kids come to school wearing a Mexican flag on Taco bell\Margarita appreciation day.
Several white kids point fingers and complain "bout them Mexican kids"
First group to pull the issue card - white kids

Several Kids show up to school wearing American Flags on..er...uh..well thats tough. All those Holidays they have off. What the fuck would they be doing in school on a national holiday typical of flag waving.

So a bunch of kids show up to school on Taco bell\Margarita appreciation day wearing US flag t-shirts with the publicly admitted purpose of pulling a bro patrol on the Mexican kids.
Mexican kids say a bunch of shit in spanish. I dont speak the language so I cant be sure what the hell they are saying. Mexican bro patrol is formed.

They meet in middle of school yard...scratch that. no child left behind eliminates that going outside thing in school and replaced it with a "slow learner" center\building....
So the two bro patrols meet in the parking lot and circle each other...preparing to begin a dance off of some sort.
School officials say "Jesus fucking Christ what the hell is going on?" to which 4 of the Mexican kids (named Jesus) pick their heads up.
school officials don't take issue with the flag...they take issue with the kids trying to poke the burrito into joining them in a dance off on school property.

Students say "No way brah...aint no mexican gonna disrespect me or my boyz. we handle our bizzness."
They then pull "I'm just wearing this t-shit because I love my country and everyone who disagrees is missing their patriotic bone.(even though I wouldn't be wearing they didn't wear Mexico t-shirts)" cards.

School administration knowing instigators when they see it roll eyes and say "Will you please knock this off and wear these 3 wolves howling at the moon t-shirt?"
Kids say nah brah.
Principal rubs temple and bans the noobs for a day.

Basically what I'm saying here is that teenager annoy the fuck out of me an I refuse to finish my thought process on this because I lost track halfway through

[shmike]

Depends on how you look at it.

Kid shows up to school where American flag.
No one gives a shit...

Kid comes to School wearing Mexican flag.
No one gives a shit.


Several Kids come to school wearing a Mexican flag on Taco bell\Margarita appreciation day.
Several white kids point fingers and complain "bout them Mexican kids"
First group to pull the issue card - white kids

Several Kids show up to school wearing American Flags on..er...uh..well thats tough. all those Holidays they have off. what the fuck would they be doing in school on a national holiday typical of flag waving.

So a bunch of kids show up to school on Taco bell\Margarita appreciation day with the publicly admitted purpose of pulling a bro patrol on the Mexican kids.
Mexican kids say a bunch of shit in spanish. I dont speak the language so I cant be sure what the hell they are saying. Mexican bro patrol is formed.

They meet in middle of school yard...scratch that. no child left behind eleimiates that going outside thing in school and replaced it with a "slow learner" center\building....
So the two bro patrols meet in the parking lot and circle each other...preparing to begin a dance off of some sort.
School officials say "Jesus fucking Christ what the hell is going on?" to which 4 of the Mexican kids (named Jesus) pick their heads up.
school officials don't take issue with the flag...they take issue with the kids trying to poke the burrito into joining them in a dance off on school property.

Students say "No way brah...aint no mexican gonna disrespect me or my boyz. we handle our bizzness."
They then pull "I'm just wearing this t-shit because I love my country and everyone who disagrees is missing their patriotic bone.(even though I wouldn't be wearing they didn't wear Mexico t-shirts)" cards.

School administration knowing instigators when they see it roll eyes and say "Will you please knock this off and wear these 3 wolves howling at the moon t-shirt?"
Kids say nah brah.
Principal rubs temple and bans the noobs for a day.

Basically what I'm saying here is that teenager annoy the fuck out of me an I refuse to finish my thought process on this because I lost track halfway through


As a Puerto Rican how can you "not speak the language"!?

[pauldun170]

As a Puerto Rican how can you "not speak the language"!?

Side note: My sister happened to be born in Puerto rico while my parents were on vacation. She's been telling people that she is Puerto Rican for years.
Actually...correction...
She tells people who think "latina" is an cool word to say.
We're not on speaking terms so I can't say much more about that.

[tommymac]

Depends on how you look at it.

Kid shows up to school where American flag.
No one gives a shit...

Kid comes to School wearing Mexican flag.
No one gives a shit.


Several Kids come to school wearing a Mexican flag on Taco bell\Margarita appreciation day.
Several white kids point fingers and complain "bout them Mexican kids"
First group to pull the issue card - white kids

Several Kids show up to school wearing American Flags on..er...uh..well thats tough. all those Holidays they have off. what the fuck would they be doing in school on a national holiday typical of flag waving.

So a bunch of kids show up to school on Taco bell\Margarita appreciation day with the publicly admitted purpose of pulling a bro patrol on the Mexican kids.
Mexican kids say a bunch of shit in spanish. I dont speak the language so I cant be sure what the hell they are saying. Mexican bro patrol is formed.

They meet in middle of school yard...scratch that. no child left behind eleimiates that going outside thing in school and replaced it with a "slow learner" center\building....
So the two bro patrols meet in the parking lot and circle each other...preparing to begin a dance off of some sort.
School officials say "Jesus fucking Christ what the hell is going on?" to which 4 of the Mexican kids (named Jesus) pick their heads up.
school officials don't take issue with the flag...they take issue with the kids trying to poke the burrito into joining them in a dance off on school property.

Students say "No way brah...aint no mexican gonna disrespect me or my boyz. we handle our bizzness."
They then pull "I'm just wearing this t-shit because I love my country and everyone who disagrees is missing their patriotic bone.(even though I wouldn't be wearing they didn't wear Mexico t-shirts)" cards.

School administration knowing instigators when they see it roll eyes and say "Will you please knock this off and wear these 3 wolves howling at the moon t-shirt?"
Kids say nah brah.
Principal rubs temple and bans the noobs for a day.

Basically what I'm saying here is that teenager annoy the fuck out of me an I refuse to finish my thought process on this because I lost track halfway through

Looks like you put a lot of thought into this :lol:

[Smittie61984]

You guys claiming that unifroms solve problems don't have a clue.

What if the whiteys wanted to wear a lapel pin on May 5th? We're right back at the same issue.


No lapel pins, no crazy hair color (if any), and no individuality. Providing it is at a government school. Private schools can do whatever the hell they want. Which is usually uniforms and better success in college but that gets put on the backburner to "I'm 15 and want to express I'm a dumbass who needs attention because my parents doesn't give me any because they are usy with farmville and American Idol".

We want our kids to be educated by the government well welcome to government. A giant fucking bureaucratic mess of "equality" and no thought blandness.

Though I do love the irony that all the rednecks and middle class white Americans who constantly scream "get the Mexicans out" head off to a Mexican tex-mex bar to drink shitty frozen drinks and repeat the 4 spanish words they know to the probably American citizen server at the bar.

[Particle Man]

then they will cry about no individuality or self expression.

F that. They're still individuals... Just like EVERYBODY else. Muhahahahahaha

[Smittie61984]

http://www.filehurricane.com/viewerthumbnails/5162008123324PM_image005wh1.jpg

[Trip]

You guys claiming that unifroms solve problems don't have a clue.

What if the whiteys wanted to wear a lapel pin on May 5th? We're right back at the same issue.

Homeslice has it right:
Mexican wears Mexican flag 7-4 = no issue.

White kid wears American flag 5-5 = issue.

Modifying the uniform aka "adding flare" (if you want to go officespace) is usually not permitted. Lapel pins or any other thing to spice up the uniform are generally not allowed.

There are a lot of public schools that have gone uniforms. It doesn't solve all problems, but schools that I know that use it don't have the old standard issues about clothing.

[Papa_Complex]

Based on this, I agree with ruling.
Not saying I agree with the way the school handled things or any of the students actions. I just agree with the ruling.

Why? Because those who were 'in danger' were 'punished', while those who were THE danger, were left alone?

[pauldun170]

Why? Because those who were 'in danger' were 'punished', while those who were THE danger, were left alone?


an assistant principal asked them to remove the shirts or turn them inside out, and ordered them to his office when they refused. After a 90-minute session with the students, two others wearing similar shirts and one parent, the principal sent two of the youths home for the day.

They were asked to do something by the school. There was a volatile situation at the school, partially fed by the actions of the students in question.
All agreed that this action created risk to the students (If they had not worn the t-shirts and antagonized the other students, there would have been no danger)

The students refused to remove the t-shirts.
90 minutes of discussion between students and parents.
They were sent home.

Are you saying that it is unreasonable for staff to send students home when they refuse to honor requests by the staff?

Is sending them home punishment if the purpose of sending them home is to remove them from imminent (from the staffs perspective) danger?

Was it reasonable to assume that there was imminent danger"
Ware cited past clashes between Mexican-American and Anglo students over clothing on the holiday,

History of altercations between Mexican-American and Anglo students on this day

Ware also rejected the students’ claim of discrimination. The judge wrote that while the students wearing the shirts with American flags had told a school official that they knew they might be in danger but wanted to keep the shirts on anyway, there was no evidence that youths who wore clothing with Mexican flag colors were in danger.

“All students whose safety was in jeopardy were treated equally,” the judge wrote.

School administrators say they feared the shirts would incite violence and were worn specifically to provoke Hispanic students.

Student were sent home to remove them from danger.

[pauldun170]

more

Ware said officials at Live Oak High School reasonably believed the students' American flag clothing -- worn on the Mexican holiday, Cinco de Mayo -- could spark violence on campus. [11] A federal judge ruled that administrators at Live Oak High School were correct in forbidding students from wearing American flag shirts on Cinco de Mayo. [10]

Vice-Principal Rodriguez removed the minor from the area. When Plaintiff M.D. wore an American flag shirt to school on Cinco de Mayo 2009, he was approached by a male student who shoved a Mexican flag at him and said something in Spanish expressing anger at Plaintiffs' clothing. On the morning of Cinco de Mayo 2010, a female student approached Plaintiff M.D., motioned to his shirt, and said "why are you wearing that, do you not like Mexicans?" Plaintiffs D.G. and D.M. were also confronted about their clothing by female students before break. Defendant Rodriguez was leaving his office before brunch break on May 5, 2010, a Caucasian student approached him and said, "You may want to go out to the quad area. [12] To the contrary, the undisputed evidence shows that Plaintiffs were the only students on campus whose safety was threatened that day, at least to the knowledge of Defendants. Defendant Rodriguez has testified that he did not see any students wearing the Mexican flag on their clothing during the day. He also testified that he did not see any students with Mexican flags displayed on their person until he saw photos in the newspaper in the days following Cinco de Mayo. [12]

On Cinco De Mayo in 2009, racial tensions exploded when a fight broke out between a large group of white students and a large group of Mexican students at Live Oak High, the ruling states. On that day, Mexican students were walking around the high school's campus with Mexican flags. [5] A student at Live Oak overheard a group of male students saying that some gang members would come down from San Jose to "take care of" Plaintiffs. Based on these threats, Plaintiffs did not go to school on May 7. Plaintiffs contend that they are entitled to summary judgment because the undisputed evidence shows that they were treated differently than students wearing the colors of the Mexican flag, and that this distinction was based on the unpopularity of their viewpoint. Defendants respond that Plaintiffs have offered no evidence demonstrating that students wearing the colors of the Mexican flag were likely to be targeted for violence, and that officials treated all students for whose safety they feared in the same manner. When the government infringes upon protected speech in a discriminatory manner, such conduct may constitute a violation of the Equal Protection Clause as well as the First Amendment. [12] There might be some -- there might be some issues." During brunch break on May 5, 2010, another student called Vice-Principal Rodriguez over to a group of Mexican students and said that she was concerned about a group of students wearing the American flag and said that "there might be problems." Vice-Principal Rodriguez took her statement to mean that there might be some sort of physical altercation. A group of Mexican students also asked Defendant Rodriguez "why do they get to wear their flag when we don't get to wear our flag?". While meeting with Plaintiffs about their attire, Defendant Rodriguez explained that he was concerned for their safety. Plaintiffs did not dispute that their attire put them at risk of violence. Plaintiff D.M. stated that he was "willing to take on that responsibility" in order to continue wearing his shirt. Following Plaintiffs' departure from school they received numerous threats from other students. [12]

[shmike]

more


So...

Mexican kids threaten violence and American kids get sent home?

American kids do not threaten violence, so Mexican kids are not in jeopardy therefore there is no discrimination?

Also, nobody asked American kids WHY the shirts were worn, so administrators fears are taken as fact.

Do I have that right?

[pauldun170]

So...

Mexican kids threaten violence and American kids get sent home?

American kids do not threaten violence, so Mexican kids are not in jeopardy therefore there is no discrimination?

Also, nobody asked American kids WHY the shirts were worn, so administrators fears are taken as fact.

Do I have that right?

WHICH Mexican kids?

Was the assistant principal supposed to wait until the altercation had already begun?
If there is a history of incidents, does the assistant principal have the authority to act preemptively if the evidence shows that danger\disruption is imminent?

Are you saying that the Assistant principal should not have acted on the first indicators and should have instead waited for direct altercations between students?

[Papa_Complex]

They were asked to do something by the school. There was a volatile situation at the school, partially fed by the actions of the students in question.
All agreed that this action created risk to the students (If they had not worn the t-shirts and antagonized the other students, there would have been no danger)

The students refused to remove the t-shirts.
90 minutes of discussion between students and parents.
They were sent home.

Are you saying that it is unreasonable for staff to send students home when they refuse to honor requests by the staff?

Is sending them home punishment if the purpose of sending them home is to remove them from imminent (from the staffs perspective) danger?

Was it reasonable to assume that there was imminent danger"

History of altercations between Mexican-American and Anglo students on this day


Student were sent home to remove them from danger.

I'm saying that such requests must be reasonable and, whatever the motivation behind it, wearing a shirt sporting the US flag isn't what I would consider to be provocation. More than just those students needed to be talked to.

[Smittie61984]

Did I mention school uniforms are the answer???
http://schooluniformfancydress.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/catholic-schoolgirl-outfit-226x300.jpg

If you have that walking around, who's gonna have time for violence or noticing what some other guy is wearing???

[pauldun170]

I'm saying that such requests must be reasonable and, whatever the motivation behind it, wearing a shirt sporting the US flag isn't what I would consider to be provocation. More than just those students needed to be talked to.

Wearing the t-shirt by itself is not a provocation, but placed in the context of the situation it can be seen as a provocation.
The altercation that occurred the prior year backs that up.
The evidence provided to the AP (testimony from other students) backs that up.
The actions and testimony of the plaintiff can be seen as backing that up.
Plaintiffs did not dispute that their attire put them at risk of violence. Plaintiff D.M. stated that he was "willing to take on that responsibility" in order to continue wearing his shirt.

The issue is whether the students constitutional rights were violated.
Legal precedent establishes that students rights are limited and that officials have some legal ability to restrict those rights to prevent disruption.


Students do not enjoy the same constitutional rights as adults on school property.
The evidence backed up the assertion a disruption was likely.
Legal precedent gives the school administration the ability to take take action.

Was there a better way to handle the situation?
Perhaps
From a legal standpoint, the situation was handled appropriately and I agree with the ruling unless someone else has the actual court documents that I can review.
I'm only working with what has been posted and what information I've seen from google searches.
I have not found court records nor have I the case number.

If anyone has the case number (pardon me if I overlooked it in the thread) or official docs I sure appreciate the link.

[Particle Man]

Did I mention school uniforms are the answer???
http://schooluniformfancydress.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/catholic-schoolgirl-outfit-226x300.jpg

If you have that walking around, who's gonna have time for violence or noticing what some other guy is wearing???I would have flunked every subject just to say in HS :lol: