When I return to work, it may be to a shitstorm

[Papa_Complex]

Apparently Microsoft will be pushing updates to the latest available version of IE to users, whether they want them or not. This will break access for maybe 50% of our users, to two significant secure online systems.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/121511-microsoft-gets-silent-upgrade-religion-254113.html?source=NWWNLE_nlt_microsoft_2011-12-20

[Rangerscott]

O hell. People get used to using the same thing over and over for years. I feel your pain.

[Gas Man]

Who cares.

[Papa_Complex]

O hell. People get used to using the same thing over and over for years. I feel your pain.

It's more than them just getting used to it. There are some web applications that simply don't work properly in IE9. Compatibility Mode isn't a guaranteed fix, either, but we'll somehow have to code for its use.

Who cares.

Apparently you cared enough to post.

[Rangerscott]

It's more than them just getting used to it. There are some web applications that simply don't work properly in IE9. Compatibility Mode isn't a guaranteed fix, either, but we'll somehow have to code for its use.



Apparently you cared enough to post.


It's the love that counts.


Yea it sucks when something new comes out and gives something else the middle finger. W7 has been pretty good to me so far on old stuff. The only thing I haven't been able to do is hook my xbox360 HD-DVD player to my PC and have it work with W7. Someone made a driver for WinXP, but W7 has no codes or something for HD-DVD. Sucks because there's a shit load of them out there and they look just as good or better than a bunch of Blurays that are out.

[Papa_Complex]

It's the love that counts.


Yea it sucks when something new comes out and gives something else the middle finger. W7 has been pretty good to me so far on old stuff. The only thing I haven't been able to do is hook my xbox360 HD-DVD player to my PC and have it work with W7. Someone made a driver for WinXP, but W7 has no codes or something for HD-DVD. Sucks because there's a shit load of them out there and they look just as good or better than a bunch of Blurays that are out.

You could try getting it to work in the WinXP virtual machine, for Win7. It's a bitch for memory though. Works best if you've got Win7 64 bit and a shitload of memory, from what I'm told.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/

[dReWpY]

Egatbis this Windows you speak of?

[Papa_Complex]

Egatbis this Windows you speak of?

It's the operating system that more than 80% of the world's computer using population, including a good chunk of Mac users, has on their PCs.

[Rangerscott]

You could try getting it to work in the WinXP virtual machine, for Win7. It's a bitch for memory though. Works best if you've got Win7 64 bit and a shitload of memory, from what I'm told.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/


Tried. It doesnt work like a full copy of XP.

[Papa_Complex]

Tried. It doesnt work like a full copy of XP.

That sucks. My only other possible suggestion would be VMWare, but that's like killing a fly with 10 Kg of C4.

[Gas Man]

It's more than them just getting used to it. There are some web applications that simply don't work properly in IE9. Compatibility Mode isn't a guaranteed fix, either, but we'll somehow have to code for its use.



Apparently you cared enough to post.
NO I mean who cares if it auto updates. What's the difference?

[Papa_Complex]

NO I mean who cares if it auto updates. What's the difference?

Who? That would be anyone who:

1) ... doesn't want someone else deciding what gets installed on their computer.

2) ... has web based applications that will only function properly with a specific version of IE, or that won't function with a specific version of IE.

They'll be pushing IE9 to systems running Win7, without bothering to ask. We've found the performance of IE9 to be rather slow. In fact I've rolled back to IE8, on about 10 systems, because users thought that their whole systems were running slow as a result of it being installed.

We also know that two of our web applications, that are necessary for operation in the university, do not function in IE9. IE8 is as far as their compatibility goes, at this point. We've got people working on compatibility, for IE9, but you can't just pull the rug out from under your clients for the hell of it.

[Gas Man]

Well I get #1 but I was waiting for the IT dept style answer.

[Lamnidae]

Well I get #1 but I was waiting for the IT dept style answer.

Makes configuration management a pain --- you have a specific set of software you're supposed to run (your trusted baseline, etc).

Lots of places don't care/give a damn.... But quite a few do.

One of the reasons why we don't allow Chrome on our systems is due to the Auto-Update feature (though I use it on my personal PC's, I do like Chrome).



So, one thing in the article kinda "saves the day" for me

"[And] customers who have declined previous installations of IE8 or IE9 through Windows Update will not be automatically updated," Microsoft promised in a Thursday blog post.

Enterprises running WSUS (Windows Server Update Service), the most popular business patching and updating tool, or other patch management systems will not be affected.

"They're basically saying that if you set group policies through WSUS [to block automatic upgrades] that they're not going to override that," said Storms.

So those in an enterprise environment should be okay.... as long as they don't pull the same shit they did with (I think it was IE 7 - > IE 8) and wrap the software into some other patch.....

[Papa_Complex]

Well I get #1 but I was waiting for the IT dept style answer.

I am in the IT department and I answered :lol:

Our purchasing system is buggered up by the additional security, that was added to IE9. Our HR system, that we use to do little things like report vacations and absences doesn't work with IE9, because it screws up the nested menus. The internet gateway that we use, to guide people to the appropriate servers for HR, email, course information, etc. doesn't display properly in IE9.

They added a bunch of overhead, in IE9, that fights it out with existing systems.

@Amblyopic - Unfortunately we don't run an update server. I worked in private industry for 12 years, prior to taking a position in the university. Over the time since two words have become the bane of my existence; "academic freedom."

[Lamnidae]

I am in the IT department and I answered :lol:

Our purchasing system is buggered up by the additional security, that was added to IE9. Our HR system, that we use to do little things like report vacations and absences doesn't work with IE9, because it screws up the nested menus. The internet gateway that we use, to guide people to the appropriate servers for HR, email, course information, etc. doesn't display properly in IE9. Our secure purchasing system gets screwed up by the extra security that was added to IE9.

They added a bunch of overhead, in IE9, that fights it out with existing systems.

Feel your pain - that's why I haven't pushed it.

[Gas Man]

Yes you did Papa

[Lamnidae]

@Amblyopic - Unfortunately we don't run an update server. I worked in private industry for 12 years, prior to taking a position in the university. Over the time since two words have become the bane of my existence; "academic freedom."

I see your edit now.


but what I can't see is how "academic freedom" trumps running a stable enterprise --- do you just not get the support needed?

[Papa_Complex]

I see your edit now.

but what I can't see is how "academic freedom" trumps running a stable enterprise --- do you just not get the support needed?

Well budget is a whole different discussion, since we're one of the few Canadian universities with a centralized IT department.

Academic Freedom is the absolute death of a controlled, and controllable, environment. We cannot mandate anything. The best we might be able to do, would be to exert a certain amount of control over operational departments, but in reality the policy extends pretty much everywhere as a general mindset.

In reality the best that we can do is to set the computers up as best we can to self update within the parameters set by necessary applications, provide an effective virus/spyware/rootkit solution, provide good perimeter security, and monitor for suspicious network behaviour (but not monitor specific data).

My position, in the university, is a sort of IT 'fireman.' I perform general maintenance functions, on a daily basis, but my primary function is on-site repair and clean-up. Apart from a few odd people, in various departments and faculties, there are 5 of us who cover the campus. If we do our jobs right, things flow along rather smoothly. Occasionally, though, we have a nightmare situation like the recent Wordpress TimThumb exploit. At times like that, we're run ragged.

[Lamnidae]

Tough gig Pappa.

I don't get "academic freedom" --- do y'all at least have user agreements or acceptable use policies?

[Papa_Complex]

Tough gig Pappa.

I don't get "academic freedom" --- do y'all at least have user agreements or acceptable use policies?

No user agreements. We're careful about licensing though. Rather than 'acceptable use policies' we have 'best practices.' As I said, we can't mandate anything. We can, however, state what we will NOT do.

http://www.caut.ca/pages.asp?page=140

Sometimes it can lead to some rather extreme things.

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0010533

*EDIT* I've got to say, though, that despite all of this it's the best and most challenging job I've ever had. I'm also adequately compensated for what I deal with. It's a frustrating job, at times, but it's a good job, in a good working environment. In fact I'd call it my ideal job.

[Lamnidae]

.... yeahhhhhh. So I fail to see how "academic freedom" would apply to use of state funded equipment/facilities other than having a medium available to communicate (which you provide). It sounds like it's just an easy excuse to get away with anything. I'm curious as what's the difference between say a primary school technology department and the secondary school --- someone is still responsible / owns the equipment.....

I would need a good CYA or get outta jail free card if I worked there -- but then again a good portion of my career has been spent where actions (or inactions) on my part can be punitive. *shrugs*

[Papa_Complex]

.... yeahhhhhh. So I fail to see how "academic freedom" would apply to use of state funded equipment/facilities other than having a medium available to communicate (which you provide). It sounds like it's just an easy excuse to get away with anything. I'm curious as what's the difference between say a primary school technology department and the secondary school --- someone is still responsible / owns the equipment.....

I would need a good CYA or get outta jail free card if I worked there -- but then again a good portion of my career has been spent where actions (or inactions) on my part can be punitive. *shrugs*

Partially (ie. largely) State funded, but not purely so. We're nominally independent organizations, that must adhere to a set of standards.

Higher education simply isn't treated like primary/secondary school. Academic Freedom must apply to all aspects, or it effectively applies to none. That doesn't mean we must condone or support illegal activity though. It can certainly be abused but that's a gross exception, rather than a rule.

My CYA is twofold: When I'm working on a user's computer < Schultz > "I see nothing, NOTHING" < / Schultz > , unless I see something that is patently illegal. You don't, for example, ignore kiddie porn. They can call it 'research' all they want, but that shit ain't gonna fly.

[Lamnidae]

simply from an overall management and information assurance prospective, wow, what a tough job.


We have some pretty strict legal guidelines we have to follow on how we perform actions/work (and have to be basically re-accredited through training each year) or when an inadvertent discovery (porn, etc) through work happens. IE - we don't search unless we're directed to by an investigative authority.

So is it one entity that actually owns the equipment or connection? I get "academic freedom" --- and that's fine, you're free to research / distribute however you want, but that doesn't mean they should have the power to dictate how your enterprise runs. It's like having a toddler and letting him decide what he wants to eat. Gotta have a little parental guidance (and be able to have the ability to keep the kid in line rather than just empty words).

[Papa_Complex]

simply from an overall management and information assurance prospective, wow, what a tough job.

We have some pretty strict legal guidelines we have to follow on how we perform actions/work (and have to be basically re-accredited through training each year) or when an inadvertent discovery (porn, etc) through work happens. IE - we don't search unless we're directed to by an investigative authority.

So is it one entity that actually owns the equipment or connection? I get "academic freedom" --- and that's fine, you're free to research / distribute however you want, but that doesn't mean they should have the power to dictate how your enterprise runs. It's like having a toddler and letting him decide what he wants to eat. Gotta have a little parental guidance (and be able to have the ability to keep the kid in line rather than just empty words).

They don't dictate how we operate, but neither can we dictate how they do (within reason).

We have a list of recommended hardware. They can buy anything they want to but if it isn't on the list, we won't touch a hardware failure. We will help them with (supported) software issues, though, on unsupported hardware. The advantage of buying off from the supported list is that we're an authorized service centre, for the vast majority of it. Say a user's computer has a hard drive failure. We can have a replacement in-house within 24-48 hours and have it back up and running again, quite frequently with no loss of data. If they use unsupported equipment, then they lose that.

Within the first two months of my employment I was tasked with collecting all of the computers within a small department, so they could be examined. From time to time I'm still sent out for similar tasks, bringing the systems back for our Network Security division. That's pretty rare though.

I don't go looking for stuff, but I also can't turn a blind eye to it. Admittedly, up until this point I've not been in a position that I had to report anything. There are times when I've had to take action, but nothing that ultimately involved law enforcement.

You'll note that I'm speaking in very general terms, because I'm not permitted to discuss specifics, sometimes even within my own department ;)

[Homeslice]

Ha ha.

Some companies with crap IT departments, like mine, still have people on IE6 because they're too fucking lazy to make their company intranet sites compatible with modern browers. Fuck em. I hope this causes them massive headaches.

[Papa_Complex]

Ha ha.

Some companies with crap IT departments, like mine, still have people on IE6 because they're too fucking lazy to make their company intranet sites compatible with modern browers. Fuck em. I hope this causes them massive headaches.

It won't be an issue for most corporate intranets, that don't use any enhanced functionality. Where it becomes an issue is if you get into using gateway pages, Sharepoint or other secure file sharing setups, and various Oracle products.

[Lamnidae]

Where it becomes an issue is if you get into using gateway pages, Sharepoint or other secure file sharing setups, and various Oracle products.

x2.

[Lamnidae]

They don't dictate how we operate, but neither can we dictate how they do (within reason).

We have a list of recommended hardware. They can buy anything they want to but if it isn't on the list, we won't touch a hardware failure. We will help them with (supported) software issues, though, on unsupported hardware. The advantage of buying off from the supported list is that we're an authorized service centre, for the vast majority of it. Say a user's computer has a hard drive failure. We can have a replacement in-house within 24-48 hours and have it back up and running again, quite frequently with no loss of data. If they use unsupported equipment, then they lose that.

Within the first two months of my employment I was tasked with collecting all of the computers within a small department, so they could be examined. From time to time I'm still sent out for similar tasks, bringing the systems back for our Network Security division. That's pretty rare though.

I don't go looking for stuff, but I also can't turn a blind eye to it. Admittedly, up until this point I've not been in a position that I had to report anything. There are times when I've had to take action, but nothing that ultimately involved law enforcement.

You'll note that I'm speaking in very general terms, because I'm not permitted to discuss specifics, sometimes even within my own department ;)

Dig it.

So the hardware is the staff's personal property or you provide guidance to the departments on what they should buy, then they use their funding to buy what they want?

[Lamnidae]

Ha ha.

Some companies with crap IT departments, like mine, still have people on IE6 because they're too fucking lazy to make their company intranet sites compatible with modern browers. Fuck em. I hope this causes them massive headaches.

IT is only as good as it's backing. No support (or initiative) from C-level staff, can lead to failure.

[Papa_Complex]

Dig it.

So the hardware is the staff's personal property or you provide guidance to the departments on what they should buy, then they use their funding to buy what they want?

We don't actually work on 'personal' systems, which is where things become somewhat complicated. We had far too many issues, in the past, in which clients would try to get free service, for their home computers, by bringing them into the office. The equipment must have been purchased with university funds. We identify such equipment either by an asset tag, that we apply when the product is originally received, or the client must show us the original purchase order, at which time we will generally apply an asset tag to it (if supported equipment).

Occasionally faculty will obtain equipment through a specific research grant, or similar external funding, which is a bit of a grey area. We err on the side of the client, in such cases.

The funding for purchase doesn't come through my department. It's provided by the individual faculties and departments. With that funding they can purchase whatever they want, as it's beyond our control, but that doesn't mean we have to service whatever they buy. It would be a logistical impossibility for us to know everything about everything. We provide a recommended equipment list, and will provide individual guidance to clients when customization is required.

Our support policy is "soft on software, hard on hardware" for this reason.

[Lamnidae]

Ahhhhh ok - tracking.

I can see some difficulties could be there to get everyone under one roof a bit. Man, I'd love to play in y'alls network. lol

[Papa_Complex]

Ahhhhh ok - tracking.

I can see some difficulties could be there to get everyone under one roof a bit. Man, I'd love to play in y'alls network. lol

We control 90% plus of the network and ALL of the backbone ;)

[Cass]

Who cares.

:lol:

I'm going to go with "people who work in technology and have to deal with internet users, or internet applications" :)

this could have a very serious impact on my work. for people who don't work in technology, or don't use IE, you're right - the answer truly is "who cares"