They all can bow in front of Fords

[Gas Man]

Fuck Dlit and FUCK TOYotas... hell the other 2 on top of that... and I drive a damn chevy

(will give excemption to Ebbs old ass truck)

Further this is why the F150 has been the #1 selling truck for how many years? Like 20? Fucking long time...


Proving Grounds (http://www.fordvehicles.com/2009f150/)

[Ninjakel]

I love my F150

[Carolina]

damn I watched the first two and a lil of the one with the big ass wheel weight shit in the bed. Pretty impressive. When I get a chance i'm gonna check the other manufacturers and see if they did the same tests. The first one with the bumps wow did u see the bed of the toyota wtf and the trailer in the second vid hmmmmm it may be worth the mulah. I have no need though but if I were a professional or a construction guy, home builder,landscaper towed alot etc.. this would def have to be in my garage.

[Gas Man]

Yeah I have always heard the toys were weak in the body dept... but HOLY FUCK...

[Carolina]

WTF where Ebbs been today he finally got a girl or something after a whole year in Korea WTF:whistle: I know he is gonna chime in with some facts and shii i await. I think ford did a good job of calling everyone out and whupping up on em perty good. That just means all the companies gonna or are already whipping up some good trucks for the future.

[Gas Man]

more like he finally saved up enough money to get a good one!!!!


http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/Posting/U%20or%20thread%20sucks/thBurn.gif

[Carolina]

more like he finally saved up enough money to get a good one!!!!


http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/Posting/U%20or%20thread%20sucks/thBurn.gif


:guf: He prob got that insurance loot by now.

[Dnyce]

but damn all 4 are hideous lol

[Carolina]

but damn all 4 are hideous lol

wtf:ps: lol i like em u know gotta see em in person though. it is a truck i like em dirty nway

[Carolina]

gas mileage is pretty good actually on all them even though they were empty and brand new and shit.

[Dnyce]

ive seen em in person-full size truck styling took a turn for the worse imo a few years ago. its like a ugly contest lol

[Cutty72]

I love my F150

Ditto.

[PhiSig1071]

"That boy ain't right"

:lol

I like the way they did the fuel test, I'm guessing the ball in the fuel would create a blockage which would result in the motor stalling out. That way they eliminate any issues with fuel pump location, etc.

[Gas Man]

Good call Phi!

[Amber Lamps]

The only "foul" I'll call on these tests is that they obviously played to their "strengths" but each manufacturer has areas where they are superior. Plus,they all have similar videos out that "prove" their truck is the best,for example,

Dodge; http://ramchallenge.yahoo.com/index.html?pid=CWebPage&adid=RamChallengeMicrosite

Besides,in the fuel mileage test,the model Chevy they used will out 0-60,out tow and out haul the Ford. That's got to count for something as well. BTW my Silverado had the 4/6/8 Max motor that switched how many cylinders fired depending on what you were doing and at what speed you were traveling. So you could get 19-20 mpg cruising down the freeway but if you needed all the power the 6 liter could give it was available. I doubt the 4.? liter in the Ford can hang!

Toyota also has their strong points. It's all relative and you have to consider what you are going to use the truck for.

I personally never believe these kinds of "tests". I'd like to see the option lists for all of these trucks and the price tags. I know that Chevy and Dodge offer towing packages and suspension options for their trucks that may have not been present.

[marko138]

Fuck your shitty Ford, ass wipe.

[Dave]

Lrk6vsb77xk
0Uc4Ksz3nHM

[Amber Lamps]

Lrk6vsb77xk
0Uc4Ksz3nHM


WOW,those videos were great Dave and really enhanced this discussion,thanks!:dthumb:

[Dave]

lmao i cant tell if you are being sarcastic, but its pretty amazing what that fucker can take

[Amber Lamps]

lmao i cant tell if you are being sarcastic, but its pretty amazing what that fucker can take


Try clicking on your attachments,buddy....

[Dave]

gah wtf i was just watching that.
http://www.youtube.co m/watch?v=Lrk6vsb77xk

http://www.youtube.co m/watch?v=0Uc4Ksz3nHM

http://www.youtube.co m/watch?v=YfZDtC9kjVk

fucking site keeps putting it in tags. cut and paste them together

[Homeslice]

Further this is why the F150 has been the #1 selling truck for how many years? Like 20? Fucking long time...
[/URL]
Because of fleet sales, government sales, and such? Pretty much......

[fnfalman]

Notice that Ford conveniently left out the Nissan Titan. :whistle:

['73 H1 Triple]

Further this is why the F150 has been the #1 selling truck for how many years? Like 20? Fucking long time...


If GM would combine Chevy truck and GMC sales, those numbers outsell Ford.

Jeff

[Mr Lefty]

WTF where Ebbs been today he finally got a girl or something after a whole year in Korea WTF:whistle: I know he is gonna chime in with some facts and shii i await. I think ford did a good job of calling everyone out and whupping up on em perty good. That just means all the companies gonna or are already whipping up some good trucks for the future.

yeah the new toy's all have the "progressive" frames... fully boxed up front dual wall... then just fully boxed.. then C channel under the bed... fuck'n retarded imo...

my 87 has a fully boxed frame and 1'ton rated axles... they OVER ENGINEERED my truck... that's why it's lasted. I'd love to see what my truck would do out there... though it's so light it'd probably be pitched around something fierce... the new ones I'm not overly impressed with as they've done away with the mind set of building the truck to last forever in every aspect... but in terms of reliability I'll still buy a Toyota over any domestic out there.

:2cents:

[Dave]

yeah the new toy's all have the "progressive" frames... fully boxed up front dual wall... then just fully boxed.. then C channel under the bed... fuck'n retarded imo...

my 87 has a fully boxed frame and 1'ton rated axles... they OVER ENGINEERED my truck... that's why it's lasted. I'd love to see what my truck would do out there... though it's so light it'd probably be pitched around something fierce... the new ones I'm not overly impressed with as they've done away with the mind set of building the truck to last forever in every aspect... but in terms of reliability I'll still buy a Toyota over any domestic out there.

:2cents:

watch the video i linked :dthumb:

[Mr Lefty]

they all come up invalid... but your probably talking about the top gear episode... where they burn, flood, wreck, roll, drop a trailor on it, and demolish a building out from under it and still drive it. :lol:

[Dave]

they all come up invalid... but your probably talking about the top gear episode... where they burn, flood, wreck, roll, drop a trailor on it, and demolish a building out from under it and still drive it. :lol:

yep, and dont blame me. i said peeps should cut the whole thing above and then paste it and delete the space. dont know why this site is so adamant about putting it in tags

[Mr Lefty]

yep, and dont blame me. i said peeps should cut the whole thing above and then paste it and delete the space. dont know why this site is so adamant about putting it in tags

it's not this site... if you look... it says the user who uploaded the video's disabled embedding. :bs:

yeah I missed the space the first time :lol:

[DIMford]

I like the videos.. but I will stick with my Chevy for now.

[tlstreak]

Our company gave Dodge a chance . We bought 2 trucks for each location in our region. They were to replace 5-8 year old 200,000 mile trucks and vans.

Both dodges are already sold, with massive amounts of down time due to transmission issues, fuel pump, injectors, and a shit load of other issues, and high ass maint. cost that the dealers could not even get right.

So we kept the 200,000 + trucks and sold the Dodge's both under 60k and both had to be towed off the lot.

Ford has proven it self to me over and over with a good running depedable body and motor, with some of the lowest maint costs ive seen. Its entire line up of trucks and vans are more cost effective than anything else out there for long term use, and efficency.

[Amber Lamps]

Our company gave Dodge a chance . We bought 2 trucks for each location in our region. They were to replace 5-8 year old 200,000 mile trucks and vans.

Both dodges are already sold, with massive amounts of down time due to transmission issues, fuel pump, injectors, and a shit load of other issues, and high ass maint. cost that the dealers could not even get right.

So we kept the 200,000 + trucks and sold the Dodge's both under 60k and both had to be towed off the lot.

Ford has proven it self to me over and over with a good running depedable body and motor, with some of the lowest maint costs ive seen. Its entire line up of trucks and vans are more cost effective than anything else out there for long term use, and efficency.

I also work for a company the uses trucks to do service and my first hand experience has been negative with respect to Ford. We had always used GMC trucks for apparently decades but my boss decided to buy two Ford F-250s V10 flatbeds,primarily because of their lower price point. Last I knew, both trucks were experiencing problems with brakes,transmissions and my truck had several small but irritating electrical issues. :idk: but in my experience,there isn't a any auto manufacturer that doesn't have stories like yours and mine.

[Dave]

it's not this site... if you look... it says the user who uploaded the video's disabled embedding. :bs:

yeah I missed the space the first time :lol:

yeah, also appears that now top gear has a youtube account theyve had all third party version removed. and what i meant about this site was i cant just post the link and have a link show up. it automatically embeds the fucker

[Mr Lefty]

I understand the first video, as it relays just how flexable the frame is... and how well the suspension does it's job...

but the others I do have a little issue with... especially the second and third ones.

the second can be almost completely elimenated by loading your trailer correctly... and by not letting off the throttle as the semi goes by... or... by just accelorating after the semi goes by...

so what's that test prove? that Fords are better for people who need to learn about towing things proberly? for people who often carry unsafe loads?

don't get me wrong... the technology is great... but again... wouldn't be that big a deal if it was just properly loaded.


the 3rd video is just stupid... so great... you can haul a heavier load with the ford at higher speeds... just what we need. This has to do with frame ridgity... so basicly it's a 2nd test proving what the first did... ford has a fully boxed frame that's quite stiff...

the 4th video, I'm just intrested how much of the human factor came in to play... given they were stoping and going... and you have humans driving so how do you get relative data? also it says 38m... that's great... but what does it mean? 38 mins at what speed? a lower speed would relate to maybe .5 or 1 mpg more... which is where I think this ended up or they'd have said... we went 3 miles further than the dodge... ect.

[fatbuckRTO]

I quit watching after the second video. Here's why:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1185/4116601/8587112/346275108.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1185/4116601/8587112/346275111.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1185/4116601/8587112/346275117.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1185/4116601/8587112/346275112.jpg


I mean, shit, they damn near took the side mirrors off the Chevy. That's hardly what I'd call an impartial test.

[fatbuckRTO]

That said, I like that guy from "Dirty Jobs." He's a funny motherfucker.

[Amber Lamps]

That said, I like that guy from "Dirty Jobs." He's a funny motherfucker.


Smoke and mirrors baby! Like I said they all have videos that PROVE their truck is the best,toughest,etc.

[RCM78]

Well, I have an '04 Dodge Ram quad cab 4X4. Previous truck was an '02 Dodge Ram Quad cab 2wd. Some of the stuff they say in the vids is true. When the truck is empty and it hit a bump in a turn the back end will jump. Also, When pushing the truck in the twisty's(from summit point back to the hotel) the front end pushes bad. The 2wd truck handled better then the 4wd truck. But they did have different engines. The 2wd had the 4.7 and the 4wd has the 5.7 hemi. So the first truck had alot less weight on the front end.

Towing, and driving with a load I've never had an issue with. I've had two bikes in the bed many times and I tend to drive fast. I havent had any issues with bodyroll on either of my trucks. Towing has been trouble free too. Both trailers I've owned have towed straight even in high winds and while passing semi's. My old triler was a 7X16 dual axle enclosed with brakes. My current trailer is a 6X12 single axle enclosed without brakes.

Granted the old trailer was more steady, but the new trailer is easy to control even if it does start to wag a bit.

The WORST truck I've ever driven with a trailer was a Nissan Titan. We've taken both my trailers from NJ to Alabama three times in my buddies Titan. That truck just plain sucks at keeping a trailer steady. You have to constantly load the steering wheel one way or the other to keep the trailer straight. It's actually fine in long turns but when the road is straight that truck floats around and the trailer starts to wag...Maybe it's just his truck. It feels like alot of play in the steering is the peoblem. I've told him to have it looked at but he says I just dont like his truck. Thats not true. I like the Titan. But it tows like shit!!!

[Cass]

I love my F150

Me 3 :D But I still want a little car to go with it in the garage. Bike, car, truck. What more could a girl need??

[James]

Notice that Ford conveniently left out the Nissan Titan. :whistle:

that's what I was thinking...

When I was truck shopping, I drove all the full size trucks (except Dodge) and liked the Titan over the rest - by far. This was 4 yrs ago, so who knows how they stack up now. Hell my Titan doesn't even have 35k miles yet lol

[pickle.of.doom]

I don't know about the full size range, but when I was truck shopping in the mid-size range a few years back, all of the American options were overpriced pieces of junky shit compared to my Frontier. Simple as that.

[Gas Man]

The only "foul" I'll call on these tests is that they obviously played to their "strengths" but each manufacturer has areas where they are superior. Plus,they all have similar videos out that "prove" their truck is the best,for example,

Dodge; http://ramchallenge.yahoo.com/index.html?pid=CWebPage&adid=RamChallengeMicrosite

Besides,in the fuel mileage test,the model Chevy they used will out 0-60,out tow and out haul the Ford. That's got to count for something as well. BTW my Silverado had the 4/6/8 Max motor that switched how many cylinders fired depending on what you were doing and at what speed you were traveling. So you could get 19-20 mpg cruising down the freeway but if you needed all the power the 6 liter could give it was available. I doubt the 4.? liter in the Ford can hang!

Toyota also has their strong points. It's all relative and you have to consider what you are going to use the truck for.

I personally never believe these kinds of "tests". I'd like to see the option lists for all of these trucks and the price tags. I know that Chevy and Dodge offer towing packages and suspension options for their trucks that may have not been present.

But the dodge thing was nothing but dodge trucks... interesting but no comparison

Because of fleet sales, government sales, and such? Pretty much......

Could be true but with the way companies are, the bottom line of money is going to be triumph.

Notice that Ford conveniently left out the Nissan Titan. :whistle:

I am always amazed how people that aren't from Detroit don't GET IT. A REAL TRUE Truck should never be anything but a Domestic.

If GM would combine Chevy truck and GMC sales, those numbers outsell Ford.

Jeff

I drove them all and still have had the best luck with my fords

they all come up invalid... but your probably talking about the top gear episode... where they burn, flood, wreck, roll, drop a trailor on it, and demolish a building out from under it and still drive it. :lol:

Hey gave your toyo a free pass due to said episode.

I understand the first video, as it relays just how flexable the frame is... and how well the suspension does it's job...

but the others I do have a little issue with... especially the second and third ones.

the second can be almost completely elimenated by loading your trailer correctly... and by not letting off the throttle as the semi goes by... or... by just accelorating after the semi goes by...

so what's that test prove? that Fords are better for people who need to learn about towing things proberly? for people who often carry unsafe loads?

don't get me wrong... the technology is great... but again... wouldn't be that big a deal if it was just properly loaded.


the 3rd video is just stupid... so great... you can haul a heavier load with the ford at higher speeds... just what we need. This has to do with frame ridgity... so basicly it's a 2nd test proving what the first did... ford has a fully boxed frame that's quite stiff...

the 4th video, I'm just intrested how much of the human factor came in to play... given they were stoping and going... and you have humans driving so how do you get relative data? also it says 38m... that's great... but what does it mean? 38 mins at what speed? a lower speed would relate to maybe .5 or 1 mpg more... which is where I think this ended up or they'd have said... we went 3 miles further than the dodge... ect.

I am CONSTANTLY yelling at people for inproper loading. Many people always load furthest forward on a trailer (say heavy equipment). Putting all that on tongue weight instead of letting the trailer do its own work with the load. I didn't load the below pic or I would have moved the skidsteer about another 1' back. But you get the idea. many would put it all the way forward and that is why the manufactures have created so many "stupid people" fixes.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l311/cjclark69/BPL/100_2704.jpg

I don't know about the full size range, but when I was truck shopping in the mid-size range a few years back, all of the American options were overpriced pieces of junky shit compared to my Frontier. Simple as that.


Mid size... GO BIG OR GO HOME I fuckin hate small trucks

[Amber Lamps]

I was just putting up an example of a company "proving" their truck is the best. I mean you don't see all that body shake in Dodge's video. Oh and as far as the load pictured,taking into account the massive weight of the bucket,if they fully released the hydraulics that is,I'd say that you are right. personally,when we pulled a 8X24 to Daytona from Mi,we always used load levelers. Oh,and how does the truck stop the trailer from wagging with the only connection being the ball? Yes,I know how to haul,but if you have to get out of the gas while a semi is passing you,what can the truck do to fix it without compromising the reason your wish to decelerate?

[Mr Lefty]

I was just putting up an example of a company "proving" their truck is the best. I mean you don't see all that body shake in Dodge's video. Oh and as far as the load pictured,taking into account the massive weight of the bucket,if they fully released the hydraulics that is,I'd say that you are right. personally,when we pulled a 8X24 to Daytona from Mi,we always used load levelers. Oh,and how does the truck stop the trailer from wagging with the only connection being the ball? Yes,I know how to haul,but if you have to get out of the gas while a semi is passing you,what can the truck do to fix it without compromising the reason your wish to decelerate?

ford has a new system that applys one side of the vehicles brakes at a time so slowing one side of the (I'm assuming truck not trailer) at a time. I'm not totally sure how it works... but again... this can be solved by doing two things... 1 LOADING THE TRAILER CORRECTLY... and 2. accelerating past the semi. or at least not declererating.

it's a tool for the lazy and ignorant imo.

[DLIT]

I don't give a fuck how many trucks they sold. Longevity is my main concern. I got my truck to haul my bike around and that's pretty much it. And it does it effortlessly. I've towed a 15' enclosed trailer with my bike in it and it did with no problem at all. I don't see me going over 1/4-mile speed bump paths either. The day I have a job working at a construction site, then I might look at all those tests and make a pick. Until then, I'll go with the proven winner in longevity...Toyota. And last I checked, I didn't drive a Tundra, I drove a Tacoma. Where's the mid-sized proving grounds at?

The new F150 looks tight though.

[DLIT]

I quit watching after the second video. Here's why:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1185/4116601/8587112/346275108.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1185/4116601/8587112/346275111.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1185/4116601/8587112/346275117.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL1185/4116601/8587112/346275112.jpg


I mean, shit, they damn near took the side mirrors off the Chevy. That's hardly what I'd call an impartial test.

Exactly. The furthest spray from the rig was still feet away from the Ford. B-I-A-S-T. Just like any sportbike magazine. Manufactures pay mags to praise their bikes. Not saying all, but the majority.

[Dnyce]

why does a truck have to be domestic? thats retarded. i know its just your opinion, but damn. i dont believe u typed that lol

[Particle Man]

I have driven the Titan and was pretty impressed with it. never got the chance to offroad it though so I figured I didn't test it out properly.

[Mudpuppy]

Fuck Dlit and FUCK TOYotas... hell the other 2 on top of that... and I drive a damn chevy

(will give excemption to Ebbs old ass truck)

Further this is why the F150 has been the #1 selling truck for how many years? Like 20? Fucking long time...


Proving Grounds (http://www.fordvehicles.com/2009f150/)

the new f150 is bad ass for sure.. i have drove every brand, haven't yet drove the 09 f150, and i can say that by far the f150 has always been superior.. the new one just looks like they improved on a good thing.. i look forward to driving one soon.. have to wait for a good snowy day and do a test drive down some unplowed roads.. already had my expedition out for some winter fun over the weekend - fuck i love that expedition - it's such a god damn tank and just wants to drive through anything.. it's a ton of fun to drive especially off road..

[Gas Man]

I was just putting up an example of a company "proving" their truck is the best. I mean you don't see all that body shake in Dodge's video. Oh and as far as the load pictured,taking into account the massive weight of the bucket,if they fully released the hydraulics that is,I'd say that you are right. personally,when we pulled a 8X24 to Daytona from Mi,we always used load levelers. Oh,and how does the truck stop the trailer from wagging with the only connection being the ball? Yes,I know how to haul,but if you have to get out of the gas while a semi is passing you,what can the truck do to fix it without compromising the reason your wish to decelerate?

By smackin the trailer brakes while stayin in the throttle. I've hauled more trailers than most.

I don't give a fuck how many trucks they sold. Longevity is my main concern. I got my truck to haul my bike around and that's pretty much it. And it does it effortlessly. I've towed a 15' enclosed trailer with my bike in it and it did with no problem at all. I don't see me going over 1/4-mile speed bump paths either. The day I have a job working at a construction site, then I might look at all those tests and make a pick. Until then, I'll go with the proven winner in longevity...Toyota. And last I checked, I didn't drive a Tundra, I drove a Tacoma. Where's the mid-sized proving grounds at?

The new F150 looks tight though.

Understandable... but I don't see where anybody can say anything either way on one out lasting the other.

why does a truck have to be domestic? thats retarded. i know its just your opinion, but damn. i dont believe u typed that lol

You're not from Detroit (motor city) so you won't understand. Maybe Mud can speakith. But till he does I will try.

Listen its simple... if any of the big 3 go down the fall out will be INSANE!! I think I was told that for every 1 worker at the Big 3, 9 others loose their jobs. THink of the companies that make the products for the vechicles, then a truck company that hauls it the factory, then the guys that unload it at the factory, the guy who assembles it to the car, the truck company that hauls the cars away to the dealers, the kid that checks them in, the guy who preps the car, the kid that washes the car, the salesman who sells it, the service writer and mechanic that services it, the parts people who sell the replacement parts, ect... the list is incrediable. Not too mention then all of those people stop buying other goods.

Do we really want our country to be a totally consumer based society? Do we want us to buy EVERYTHING from overseas?

Or

Do we want our country to be on the leading edge of technology and create products that are sold worldwide? It is OBVIOUS to anybody with a brain that these other countries don't have the the quality control and stringent guidelines that USA does. Hence lead paint on kids toys, shafty craftsmanship, ect.

The world is seeing the light that you get what you pay for and there is going to be a increased demand for more "Made in USA". I know I have been trying hard to do so for many years now. I can honestly tell you, that I WILL NOT own a foreign car in my driveway. PERIOD

the new f150 is bad ass for sure.. i have drove every brand, haven't yet drove the 09 f150, and i can say that by far the f150 has always been superior.. the new one just looks like they improved on a good thing.. i look forward to driving one soon.. have to wait for a good snowy day and do a test drive down some unplowed roads.. already had my expedition out for some winter fun over the weekend - fuck i love that expedition - it's such a god damn tank and just wants to drive through anything.. it's a ton of fun to drive especially off road..

This man knows his shit on this and works in the industry. Teach em Mud!

I love the new look of the F150. The dodge looks like shit. And I have never grown to like the new chevy front end from 2008+. I do like the new dodge side boxes, but the fords isn't a slouch either... their steps are awesome and that bedliner organizer thing is pimp.

[Amber Lamps]

Um...I'm familiar with trailer brakes,my question is how does the truck stop the tail from wagging? Unless this system incorpoates the trailer brakes BUT what if your trailer doesn't have brakes,what then?

[Dnyce]

You're not from Detroit (motor city) so you won't understand. Maybe Mud can speakith. But till he does I will try.

Listen its simple... if any of the big 3 go down the fall out will be INSANE!! I think I was told that for every 1 worker at the Big 3, 9 others loose their jobs. THink of the companies that make the products for the vechicles, then a truck company that hauls it the factory, then the guys that unload it at the factory, the guy who assembles it to the car, the truck company that hauls the cars away to the dealers, the kid that checks them in, the guy who preps the car, the kid that washes the car, the salesman who sells it, the service writer and mechanic that services it, the parts people who sell the replacement parts, ect... the list is incrediable. Not too mention then all of those people stop buying other goods.

Do we really want our country to be a totally consumer based society? Do we want us to buy EVERYTHING from overseas?

Or

Do we want our country to be on the leading edge of technology and create products that are sold worldwide? It is OBVIOUS to anybody with a brain that these other countries don't have the the quality control and stringent guidelines that USA does. Hence lead paint on kids toys, shafty craftsmanship, ect.

The world is seeing the light that you get what you pay for and there is going to be a increased demand for more "Made in USA". I know I have been trying hard to do so for many years now. I can honestly tell you, that I WILL NOT own a foreign car in my driveway. PERIOD



This man knows his shit on this and works in the industry. Teach em Mud!

I love the new look of the F150. The dodge looks like shit. And I have never grown to like the new chevy front end from 2008+. I do like the new dodge side boxes, but the fords isn't a slouch either... their steps are awesome and that bedliner organizer thing is pimp.

there was no support for your previous statement. none.

i dont have to be from detroit to understand "buy american." i know how fucked up it will be if any one of the big three fall, let alone all of em. im looking at buying a truck, and it will be a chevy. ive been dead set on a chevy for awhile-or gmc, but same basic idea.

however, saying a nissan isnt a true truck because its a import is retarded. if anything, it should be considered direct competition with domestics, what else will force domestics to continually improve, innovate and get better everyday, to stay at the leading edge of technology other than competition?

furthermore, dont nissan, toyota, honda all have factories in the u.s.? isnt that by definition being "made in america" ? arent those american workers as well? i understand shoddy craftsmanship in other import products, cheap knockoffs, and just plain garbage-but alot of import vehicles are made here, by american workers, and have to pass the same tests domestics do. so quality control argument goes out the window, unless detroit is more strict than nebraska or wherever the fuck nissan, honda, etc are.

seems like the harley effect to me- harley made the same shit for along time, wasnt bad shit, just not much innovation-jap companies started copying em, and then outperforming em, and cost less. lit a fire under harley's ass and now they got new shit, innovative shit, shit you see on the newest sportbikes-mite not hear about it, but its there, and they're back being the king of the cruiser market (imo)

instead of saying its a import, its not even a real truck, you should be saying its a import, and cant compete with ford. i probably agree with you more than you think-but the first statement you made was blatantly retarded. and i call ppl(who i know to be intelligent) out when they say stupid shit.

[Mr Lefty]

Um...I'm familiar with trailer brakes,my question is how does the truck stop the tail from wagging? Unless this system incorpoates the trailer brakes BUT what if your trailer doesn't have brakes,what then?

I answered this a while ago... they have a system that alternates braking each side of the vehicle or trailer (i'm not sure which) to counter act the wag. not sure how the whole thing works in depth... but to me it's for the lazy and the ignorant... too lazy and or ignorant to load the trailer right or know not to brake going buy a semi or in a high wind gust situation... mainly the first.

[t-homo]

My dad has a 99 Ford F-250 Super Duty with the 7.3L Powerstroke. Its got 220K on it now, with probably 3/4 of those hauling his lawn spraying trailer full of chemicals. It was finally last summer at about 195K that he had to get the bearings fixed in his front wheels. That alone has proven ford to me. My uncle has gone through a couple of dodges and a chevy in the same time frame and sold them all due to problems with em.

[DLIT]

By smackin the trailer brakes while stayin in the throttle. I've hauled more trailers than most.



Understandable... but I don't see where anybody can say anything either way on one out lasting the other.



You're not from Detroit (motor city) so you won't understand. Maybe Mud can speakith. But till he does I will try.

Listen its simple... if any of the big 3 go down the fall out will be INSANE!! I think I was told that for every 1 worker at the Big 3, 9 others loose their jobs. THink of the companies that make the products for the vechicles, then a truck company that hauls it the factory, then the guys that unload it at the factory, the guy who assembles it to the car, the truck company that hauls the cars away to the dealers, the kid that checks them in, the guy who preps the car, the kid that washes the car, the salesman who sells it, the service writer and mechanic that services it, the parts people who sell the replacement parts, ect... the list is incrediable. Not too mention then all of those people stop buying other goods.

Do we really want our country to be a totally consumer based society? Do we want us to buy EVERYTHING from overseas?

Or

Do we want our country to be on the leading edge of technology and create products that are sold worldwide? It is OBVIOUS to anybody with a brain that these other countries don't have the the quality control and stringent guidelines that USA does. Hence lead paint on kids toys, shafty craftsmanship, ect.

The world is seeing the light that you get what you pay for and there is going to be a increased demand for more "Made in USA". I know I have been trying hard to do so for many years now. I can honestly tell you, that I WILL NOT own a foreign car in my driveway. PERIOD



This man knows his shit on this and works in the industry. Teach em Mud!

I love the new look of the F150. The dodge looks like shit. And I have never grown to like the new chevy front end from 2008+. I do like the new dodge side boxes, but the fords isn't a slouch either... their steps are awesome and that bedliner organizer thing is pimp.


In my experience as a general mechanic before I joined the AF, I have noticed that more American trucks were in for not regular service than Toyotas. I've seen the old 4-Runners in the shop and the body went to shit before anything else did.

[Gas Man]

Dnyce... sorry... got caught up a bit...

For me... its simple.

A true american truck is a Ford, Chevy (or GMC), Dodge. PERIOD. I can't back this side of my arguement up with facts, stats, or anything. Its an attitude. I'm sure that its not only a Detroit thing but a loyality thing. But not just loyality... its attitude and the idea of history.. its hard to explain.

Ok.. muscle cars. Sure there are Super Cars from all over the world. But when you think of "muscle cars"... what do you think of? Cameros, Mustangs, Chevelles, old school novas and impallas. You don't think of Lambo's, Ferraris, or Supras.

Same goes for "trucks". You think of that blue oval, bow tie or rams horns.


Dlit... but that mentality is why many people that work at "BLANK" dealerships and see the broken down vechicles say their CRAP. Cause that is all they see. It taints your POV.

My last F150 in the 3 years I owned it. Took it to the dealership twice. Once for a software update due to engine light. Second time for new clutch plates in the rear end. That is it... 3 years. The old ideas and thoughts on American junk are long gone. Same goes for the Harley Davisons. HD's are "turn key". They are an American built Honda.

[DLIT]

I didn't work at a dealership, I worked at a Goodyear store. I mainly did state inspections and general maintenance/services. Then, I worked at Pep Boys. There wasn't a certain brand of car I saw because none of them were dealerships.

[Dnyce]

no prob gman

[Mudpuppy]

there was no support for your previous statement. none.

i dont have to be from detroit to understand "buy american." i know how fucked up it will be if any one of the big three fall, let alone all of em. im looking at buying a truck, and it will be a chevy. ive been dead set on a chevy for awhile-or gmc, but same basic idea.

however, saying a nissan isnt a true truck because its a import is retarded. if anything, it should be considered direct competition with domestics, what else will force domestics to continually improve, innovate and get better everyday, to stay at the leading edge of technology other than competition?

furthermore, dont nissan, toyota, honda all have factories in the u.s.? isnt that by definition being "made in america" ? arent those american workers as well? i understand shoddy craftsmanship in other import products, cheap knockoffs, and just plain garbage-but alot of import vehicles are made here, by american workers, and have to pass the same tests domestics do. so quality control argument goes out the window, unless detroit is more strict than nebraska or wherever the fuck nissan, honda, etc are.

seems like the harley effect to me- harley made the same shit for along time, wasnt bad shit, just not much innovation-jap companies started copying em, and then outperforming em, and cost less. lit a fire under harley's ass and now they got new shit, innovative shit, shit you see on the newest sportbikes-mite not hear about it, but its there, and they're back being the king of the cruiser market (imo)

instead of saying its a import, its not even a real truck, you should be saying its a import, and cant compete with ford. i probably agree with you more than you think-but the first statement you made was blatantly retarded. and i call ppl(who i know to be intelligent) out when they say stupid shit.

Ok let me catch up a bit here. I will attempt to shed some light here. Keep on mind that I work for a company whose headquarters is in Germany. I do business in about any country in the world that is worth a shit. I understand we are living in a global economy - good, bad or indifferent. I import and export shit every day. I deal with all the auto manufacturers including Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, Auto Alliance (Mazda), GM, Ford, (don't deal much with Chrysler because the fuckers don't pay period and play games but I still do to a point), Tata Motors, etc.

First off here is the fundamental problem the fascist brainwashing media won't tell you because it won't sell papers or get people to watch their bullshit news:

Ford, GM and Chrysler have a shitload of retirees and that adds big time to the cost of a car. They, for now while they can, are taking care of these retirees - it cost billions for them to do so and rightfully so - you work your entire life making a company money they shouldn't throw you in the dumpster and move on. You can take the Union out of the equation and they still would struggle to compete just from this one fact. Therefore to be more competitive they seek low cost country sourcing like Mexico. A lot of people motherfuck them for doing so but between the retiree benefits and pensions and the hoops the EPA makes them jump through there aren't left with a lot of options. Now Toyota has virtually no retirees, same with Honda and Nissan who has the most because they have been here the longest still pales in comparison to any 1 of the 3.

Second Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, VW - all the big guns - set up shop in right to work states. Therefore no union and ultimately a lot lower wages. Did you know that when Mercedes came to Alabama they were given $1 billion in your tax money to set up shop there? Interesting. I am sure all the others were handsomely rewarded as well otherwise why would Hyundai set up in Alabama and then back to back set up a Kia plant across the street in Georgia.

Third Japanese, German and Chinese companies have ALL received "bailout" money from their governments at one time or another and rumor is right now with the depressed economy they are after a little more. Their governments take care of them virtually no questions asked because they recognize their value.

Fourth - a big fact that most people, especially the media who glosses over it, don't understand that this "bailout" is a loan not a handout - Chrysler got a $1 billion loan about 20 years ago and paid back every cent.

Fifth - you say you understand the ramifications if we don't do a bailout - but do you? Two words come to mind for me - economic collapse. This little recession we are in causing us so much grief is based on a 0.3% decrease in the GNP - that is a ZERO in front of the decimal. If GM, Ford and Chrysler go out you are looking at a 4% decrease in the GNP.

Sixth - The media loves to embed in your head that Toyota and all these fuckers employ Americans and they build plants in America and their cars are more American than even the American companies. But what they don't tell you is that their plants are FREE TRADE ZONES - basically when you step onto their property you give up all your rights as an American citizen and you are on foreign soil. They also manipulate free trade by not getting taxed on parts they bring from overseas - they are only taxed on the final product - the car or suv they "export" to the dealership - i.e. drive off the free trade zone to the dealership - this is total bullshit. They save billions this way and it enables them to be far more competitive.

Seventh - Back to them employing Americans - yeah that part is true but if you work with or for these companies it will be real apparent real quick who is in charge. For instance Hyundai - the Koreans call all the shots. The other issue is they are not employing unemployed Americans they are employing like farmers who already were contributing but now they quit farming and go to work for more money in the auto plant. And the problem with it is the profits are being funneled back to their motherlands - not back into our system - they only spend what they need to here.

Eighth - the buddy system. Of course every company has "preferred" suppliers that is no secret - maybe each plant has one, etc. These foreign companies rely HEAVILY on foreign suppliers - such as conveyors - Nissan uses NKC out of Japan almost exclusively - so the money they are spending goes where? Not to America. Of course you also have Daifuku - another Japanese conveyor company that is big in Toyota.

On the surface they can sugarcoat the foreign auto makers all they want and bash the american companies but it is mostly media propaganda for a variety of reasons to influence your thoughts about the subject - don't buy it. Do research, think for yourself, consider all the variables, etc. Remember World War II - when we didn't have enough resources to build our war machines who shut down production and dealerships to help with the war effort? The big 3. Now if the big 3 slips away and we don't give them a mere pittance to keep them going who is going to be there the next time we need them? Toyota? I think not. And none of the other fuckers will either - they are only here to capitalize on what they call "the Americas" and when the well runs dry they will move on to greener pastures leaving us to rot in hell. Here is a very interesting read (and there is a lot more information out there if you take the time to search it out - drop the media, forget the bullshit you see on TV and look for the real answers - the problem is most of the sheep of this country do not do so):

Incredible editorial from one of our Dealers in the Pittsburgh Region. Attached is a well written "Letter to the Editor" from Elkins Fordland.

Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers. Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world. When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world. Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government
subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack
of knowledge and lack of! due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concession s begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough. Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business. The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created th e problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment. So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country. So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson
Elkins

[Mudpuppy]

In my experience as a general mechanic before I joined the AF, I have noticed that more American trucks were in for not regular service than Toyotas. I've seen the old 4-Runners in the shop and the body went to shit before anything else did.

I have owned a lot of cars. Maybe not here but on another forum someone was bashing the Contour - I owned the Mercury version - the Mystique. Beat the shit out of it from 5,000 miles when I got it to 212,000 when I sold it - did nothing to it except brakes, tires and oil. I could name you 20 more examples of American cars and trucks I have owned with the same result.

Of course if you are talking about Dodge trucks then I would have to agree - their quality has always been suspect and for a good reason. Back when I was in vehicle development at an auto parts supplier Chrysler ALWAYS bragged about being able to blow away Ford and Chevy on getting a new product to market - in I believe half the time or even less. Yes because they cut every fucking corner possible - I was making prototype parts that weren't fully tested to put on their production vehicles. And when they came to me for a new part they always had these insane ideas and I would say no metal doesn't bend that way no you can't put a hole there no that is not possible. They were completely out of touch with reality and I was only 1 part out of a million that went into the vehicle so I can only imagine what other crazy shit they did - and it shows by the number of times their junk vehicles are in the dealership.

And did you ever consider the ratio of American trucks to Toyotas in your shop equation? i.e. if they sold 2 million American trucks and 50,000 Toyotas which one do you expect to see more of for irregular service? It's a numbers game. I have seen literally thousands of American trucks that have gone hundreds of thousands of miles with only normal maintenance. And yes their body went to shit before anything else did as well. I had an F250 with a 390 in it that I drove to 400,000 miles - even the last day I had it the truck ran like the day it was born - put the key in, tap the gas pedal 2 times, turn the key and immediate start up. I beat the fuck out of that truck and it took it, liked it and asked for more.

[Dnyce]

Ok let me catch up a bit here. I will attempt to shed some light here. Keep on mind that I work for a company whose headquarters is in Germany. I do business in about any country in the world that is worth a shit. I understand we are living in a global economy - good, bad or indifferent. I import and export shit every day. I deal with all the auto manufacturers including Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, Auto Alliance (Mazda), GM, Ford, (don't deal much with Chrysler because the fuckers don't pay period and play games but I still do to a point), Tata Motors, etc.

First off here is the fundamental problem the fascist brainwashing media won't tell you because it won't sell papers or get people to watch their bullshit news:

Ford, GM and Chrysler have a shitload of retirees and that adds big time to the cost of a car. They, for now while they can, are taking care of these retirees - it cost billions for them to do so and rightfully so - you work your entire life making a company money they shouldn't throw you in the dumpster and move on. You can take the Union out of the equation and they still would struggle to compete just from this one fact. Therefore to be more competitive they seek low cost country sourcing like Mexico. A lot of people motherfuck them for doing so but between the retiree benefits and pensions and the hoops the EPA makes them jump through there aren't left with a lot of options. Now Toyota has virtually no retirees, same with Honda and Nissan who has the most because they have been here the longest still pales in comparison to any 1 of the 3.

Second Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, VW - all the big guns - set up shop in right to work states. Therefore no union and ultimately a lot lower wages. Did you know that when Mercedes came to Alabama they were given $1 billion in your tax money to set up shop there? Interesting. I am sure all the others were handsomely rewarded as well otherwise why would Hyundai set up in Alabama and then back to back set up a Kia plant across the street in Georgia.

Third Japanese, German and Chinese companies have ALL received "bailout" money from their governments at one time or another and rumor is right now with the depressed economy they are after a little more. Their governments take care of them virtually no questions asked because they recognize their value.

Fourth - a big fact that most people, especially the media who glosses over it, don't understand that this "bailout" is a loan not a handout - Chrysler got a $1 billion loan about 20 years ago and paid back every cent.

Fifth - you say you understand the ramifications if we don't do a bailout - but do you? Two words come to mind for me - economic collapse. This little recession we are in causing us so much grief is based on a 0.3% decrease in the GNP - that is a ZERO in front of the decimal. If GM, Ford and Chrysler go out you are looking at a 4% decrease in the GNP.

Sixth - The media loves to embed in your head that Toyota and all these fuckers employ Americans and they build plants in America and their cars are more American than even the American companies. But what they don't tell you is that their plants are FREE TRADE ZONES - basically when you step onto their property you give up all your rights as an American citizen and you are on foreign soil. They also manipulate free trade by not getting taxed on parts they bring from overseas - they are only taxed on the final product - the car or suv they "export" to the dealership - i.e. drive off the free trade zone to the dealership - this is total bullshit. They save billions this way and it enables them to be far more competitive.

Seventh - Back to them employing Americans - yeah that part is true but if you work with or for these companies it will be real apparent real quick who is in charge. For instance Hyundai - the Koreans call all the shots. The other issue is they are not employing unemployed Americans they are employing like farmers who already were contributing but now they quit farming and go to work for more money in the auto plant. And the problem with it is the profits are being funneled back to their motherlands - not back into our system - they only spend what they need to here.

Eighth - the buddy system. Of course every company has "preferred" suppliers that is no secret - maybe each plant has one, etc. These foreign companies rely HEAVILY on foreign suppliers - such as conveyors - Nissan uses NKC out of Japan almost exclusively - so the money they are spending goes where? Not to America. Of course you also have Daifuku - another Japanese conveyor company that is big in Toyota.

On the surface they can sugarcoat the foreign auto makers all they want and bash the american companies but it is mostly media propaganda for a variety of reasons to influence your thoughts about the subject - don't buy it. Do research, think for yourself, consider all the variables, etc. Remember World War II - when we didn't have enough resources to build our war machines who shut down production and dealerships to help with the war effort? The big 3. Now if the big 3 slips away and we don't give them a mere pittance to keep them going who is going to be there the next time we need them? Toyota? I think not. And none of the other fuckers will either - they are only here to capitalize on what they call "the Americas" and when the well runs dry they will move on to greener pastures leaving us to rot in hell. Here is a very interesting read (and there is a lot more information out there if you take the time to search it out - drop the media, forget the bullshit you see on TV and look for the real answers - the problem is most of the sheep of this country do not do so):

Incredible editorial from one of our Dealers in the Pittsburgh Region. Attached is a well written "Letter to the Editor" from Elkins Fordland.

Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers. Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world. When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world. Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government
subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack
of knowledge and lack of! due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concession s begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough. Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business. The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created th e problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment. So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country. So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson
Elkins

i quoted you for two reasons. 1, u quoted me(probably by accident, based on your response), so i felt as if you were talking to me. 2-it was a great post.

however, i never said i was against the loan(i knew it wasnt a bailout from day 1) hell i never even brought that up. and im not against the big three. personally i'm a chevy guy, but yes, i have driven a ford lately. literally. was a focus. drove it for awhile. a chevy has taken me and my bike, or me and my dads bike/s and race cars to the track for 30+ years.

im not saying a nissan truck is better, cheaper, better made, whatever-im just saying its a truck. its a truck, and should be in direct competition withthe big three's trucks. if ford has the best selling truck-good, means theyve been kickin import ass. me and gas understand each other now anyway-what u said didnt support what he said either, u just gave like 8 damn good reasons to buy domestic over import. but i was buying domestic anyway :dthumb:

damn gd (and coherent, compared to your usual stuff) post

[Gas Man]

Thank you Mud for that!! I knew you were in the industry and could set down knowledge!!!

[Gas Man]

Dnyce... but can you see the knowledge, and passion in Muds post? That is what is in our blood here in the motor city. I have more family members than I care to count in the auto industry and just as many friends there too. It surrounds my life in every aspect I can think of.

I'm not sure if this bumper sticker is popular in other sections of the country but it is here...

Simply states...

"out of job yet, keep buying foreign"

Its the fuckin truth!

[DLIT]

I have owned a lot of cars. Maybe not here but on another forum someone was bashing the Contour - I owned the Mercury version - the Mystique. Beat the shit out of it from 5,000 miles when I got it to 212,000 when I sold it - did nothing to it except brakes, tires and oil. I could name you 20 more examples of American cars and trucks I have owned with the same result.

Of course if you are talking about Dodge trucks then I would have to agree - their quality has always been suspect and for a good reason. Back when I was in vehicle development at an auto parts supplier Chrysler ALWAYS bragged about being able to blow away Ford and Chevy on getting a new product to market - in I believe half the time or even less. Yes because they cut every fucking corner possible - I was making prototype parts that weren't fully tested to put on their production vehicles. And when they came to me for a new part they always had these insane ideas and I would say no metal doesn't bend that way no you can't put a hole there no that is not possible. They were completely out of touch with reality and I was only 1 part out of a million that went into the vehicle so I can only imagine what other crazy shit they did - and it shows by the number of times their junk vehicles are in the dealership.

And did you ever consider the ratio of American trucks to Toyotas in your shop equation? i.e. if they sold 2 million American trucks and 50,000 Toyotas which one do you expect to see more of for irregular service? It's a numbers game. I have seen literally thousands of American trucks that have gone hundreds of thousands of miles with only normal maintenance. And yes their body went to shit before anything else did as well. I had an F250 with a 390 in it that I drove to 400,000 miles - even the last day I had it the truck ran like the day it was born - put the key in, tap the gas pedal 2 times, turn the key and immediate start up. I beat the fuck out of that truck and it took it, liked it and asked for more.

Toyota for life.

[Mudpuppy]

Toyota for life.

When you are left ass raped with your ass packed full of fish heads and rice don't come crying to us toyota boy.. :pat:

[Mudpuppy]

i quoted you for two reasons. 1, u quoted me(probably by accident, based on your response), so i felt as if you were talking to me. 2-it was a great post.

however, i never said i was against the loan(i knew it wasnt a bailout from day 1) hell i never even brought that up. and im not against the big three. personally i'm a chevy guy, but yes, i have driven a ford lately. literally. was a focus. drove it for awhile. a chevy has taken me and my bike, or me and my dads bike/s and race cars to the track for 30+ years.

im not saying a nissan truck is better, cheaper, better made, whatever-im just saying its a truck. its a truck, and should be in direct competition withthe big three's trucks. if ford has the best selling truck-good, means theyve been kickin import ass. me and gas understand each other now anyway-what u said didnt support what he said either, u just gave like 8 damn good reasons to buy domestic over import. but i was buying domestic anyway :dthumb:

damn gd (and coherent, compared to your usual stuff) post

yeah i meant to quote gasman or something.. i wasn't saying you were against the loan at all just laying down the facts as i know them because not a lot of people and especially not the media will tell you.. it's all a fucking game and they are playing us all right now for their own benefit.. they all break off a little piece.. the thing to remember no matter what they tell you or how it seems - we, the little guy, are getting fucked somehow someway.. so take a big bite of the shit sandwich and enjoy.. or join the movement and fuck em all..

i am glad you enjoyed my post and i apologize for my coherent nature - i promise it won't happen again (picked the wrong week to stop sniffing airplane glue)..

[Dnyce]

Dnyce... but can you see the knowledge, and passion in Muds post? That is what is in our blood here in the motor city. I have more family members than I care to count in the auto industry and just as many friends there too. It surrounds my life in every aspect I can think of.

I'm not sure if this bumper sticker is popular in other sections of the country but it is here...

Simply states...

"out of job yet, keep buying foreign"

Its the fuckin truth!

yep, learned some stuff i didnt know, confirmed some stuff i already knew

yeah i meant to quote gasman or something.. i wasn't saying you were against the loan at all just laying down the facts as i know them because not a lot of people and especially not the media will tell you.. it's all a fucking game and they are playing us all right now for their own benefit.. they all break off a little piece.. the thing to remember no matter what they tell you or how it seems - we, the little guy, are getting fucked somehow someway.. so take a big bite of the shit sandwich and enjoy.. or join the movement and fuck em all..

i am glad you enjoyed my post and i apologize for my coherent nature - i promise it won't happen again (picked the wrong week to stop sniffing airplane glue)..

thats cool man, you did mention some shit i wasnt aware of, always gd to learn something. u should just make 1 coherent post per week, dont wana overdo it lol

[Mudpuppy]

yep, learned some stuff i didnt know, confirmed some stuff i already knew



thats cool man, you did mention some shit i wasnt aware of, always gd to learn something. u should just make 1 coherent post per week, dont wana overdo it lol

thanks for the tip - i will definitely try to limit it so i don't hurt myself or others.. i have been using the guns for food thread to offset my coherency here..

i guess the whole problem i have with all of this is no one takes the time to look at all the facts and even if they do it's not easy to find them - they tell you what they want you to know and they distort reality for their own specific reasons (i.e. they get money from these companies or whatever)..

[Dnyce]

thanks for the tip - i will definitely try to limit it so i don't hurt myself or others.. i have been using the guns for food thread to offset my coherency here..

i guess the whole problem i have with all of this is no one takes the time to look at all the facts and even if they do it's not easy to find them - they tell you what they want you to know and they distort reality for their own specific reasons (i.e. they get money from these companies or whatever)..


yep
fox kept talkin about the auto bailout on the news all day-the fact that its a loan was NEVER mentioned. and that one idiot(shelby) was talkin about how its a waste of taxpayers money, the big three is a lost cause, they cant compete with ev1 else, etc etc. skews the average persons view like a mofo

[DLIT]

When you are left ass raped with your ass packed full of fish heads and rice don't come crying to us toyota boy.. :pat:

Copy that!

[pauldun170]

Mudpuppy....

good posts

[Homeslice]

Ford, GM and Chrysler have a shitload of retirees and that adds big time to the cost of a car. They, for now while they can, are taking care of these retirees - it cost billions for them to do so and rightfully so - you work your entire life making a company money they shouldn't throw you in the dumpster and move on.

How many other industries, besides automotive and maybe the big aerospace firms, provide pensions and heath care to their retirees anymore?

Maybe people should start planning their own retirement savings, instead of blowing half their paycheck on boats and swimming pools like I see so many autoworkers doing.

[Gas Man]

mud I want to share your big post with everybody on every forum...

may I?

[Mudpuppy]

mud I want to share your big post with everybody on every forum...

may I?

yes no problem.. spread the word for sure..

Mudpuppy....

good posts

thanks

How many other industries, besides automotive and maybe the big aerospace firms, provide pensions and heath care to their retirees anymore?

Maybe people should start planning their own retirement savings, instead of blowing half their paycheck on boats and swimming pools like I see so many autoworkers doing.

yeah i am not sure - good point.. one i can think of it airlines and they have been bailed out a couple of times if i remember right..

[Cutty72]

How many other industries, besides automotive and maybe the big aerospace firms, provide pensions and heath care to their retirees anymore?

Maybe people should start planning their own retirement savings, instead of blowing half their paycheck on boats and swimming pools like I see so many autoworkers doing.

Military. As they should.

[Mudpuppy]

Military. As they should.

Absolutely.. military is so underpaid it is sick.. part of the backwards nature of this country.. a useless non-contributing gang banger can catch a football give him millions.. a guy risks his life protecting our freedom - how's $20k a year sound? motherfucker please..

i did read in the paper today that the government agency that protects pensions is in big trouble - to the tune of billions.. just happened to see it on the front page..