7 myths about Detroit automakers

[pauldun170]

7 myths about Detroit automakers

BY MARK PHELAN
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

This column by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan originally was published on Nov. 17 and has been updated.

The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are seven myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.

Myth No. 1: Nobody buys their vehicles

Reality: General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of nearly 700,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.

Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.

Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.

Myth No. 2: They build unreliable junk

Reality: The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers."

The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high as or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.

J.D. Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.

Myth No. 3: They build gas-guzzlers

Reality: All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans that the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway.

The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic.

A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.

Myth No. 4: They already got a $25-billion bailout

Reality: None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.

Myth No. 5: GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs

Reality: The domestics' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry.

The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel-economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.

Myth No. 6: They don't build hybrids

Reality: The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.

Myth No. 7: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid

Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM.

The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income.

Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis.

Contact MARK PHELAN at 313-222-6731 or phelan@freepress.com.

[fatbuckRTO]

If even most of that were true something tells me they wouldn't be asking Congress for billions of dollars.

[pauldun170]

If even most of that were true something tells me they wouldn't be asking Congress for billions of dollars.

At the very least it looks like Ford is in an ok position. Setting up a line of credit is ok with me for Ford. Looks like they are taking some good steps....they just need hold it all together while they shake uglies out of their lineup.

Chrysler - not so much.

GM - Difficult to say but I think they should have federal support a little capital to offset immediate restructuring cost.

The issue is that for the big three to get there crap together, plants have to close and the workforce needs to shrink. The BS coming from congress ("why haven't you made magical hybrids that will sell by the billions and save the world") annoys the fuck out of me.

They know what needs to be done but the political backlash of loaning money just to result in job losses clouds the process.

Dodd needs to be sent on his way and replaced by someone with knowledge of the business and the market they operate in. Tired of hearing him

[CrazyKell]

Why don't we see any other makers (Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.) asking for bailouts? :idk:

[speedylocksmith]

Why don't we see any other makers (Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.) asking for bailouts? :idk:It will happen. Mercedes plants are giving employees extra time off during the holidays because of the slowdown in sales to try and save a few $$

[unknownroad]

Why don't we see any other makers (Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.) asking for bailouts? :idk:

They're not saddled by the kind of retiree benefits load that has been dragging down the Detroit automakers, and they haven't suffered as much mis-management.

[BobTheBiker]

The simple of it is, the asians have an efficient, and actually successful management plan in effect that keeps employees making fair wages but happy at the same time, unlike the US companies that are paying retarded amounts for menial tasks.

And the american made cars really arent as good as the japanese ones honestly. I'll keep my jap built Honda for as long as I live, or until it burns to the ground.

[Homeslice]

Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.

That actually speaks pretty sadly for GM, given how many different brands GM has compared to Toyota. Also, are they counting commercial vehicles too?

J.D. Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.


Reliability <> desireable. There are plenty of reliable vehicles that consumers still don't want, because they are boring to look at or boring to drive. Which incidentally is why the vast majority of rental cars are American. Had those cars been more desireable, they could have been sold to regular consumers instead, for a higher profit.

[shmike]

That actually speaks pretty sadly for GM, given how many different brands GM has compared to Toyota. Also, are they counting commercial vehicles too?



How is your Buick stock doing? Or Chevrolet? Or Hummer?

Probably counting commercial vehicles, why wouldn't they?

[Mr Lefty]

intresting... so they're saying that the non reliable stuff from 80-90's is gone... now it's on par... so they're basing this off the last 9 years... now they're on par? granted that's a good start... but please 9 years of decent reliablity after how many of shit?

and sorry but take the worst built toyota or honda and even the best built domestic and I'd still take the toyota or honda to put my money on for reliability.

Domestic's idea of reliability is a warrenty covering everything that will go wrong.

imports idea is building so shit won't go wrong.

[Homeslice]

How is your Buick stock doing? Or Chevrolet? Or Hummer?

Probably counting commercial vehicles, why wouldn't they?

Because a much higher percentage of GM's vehicles are commercial, so it's not fair to compare with Toyota.

Toyota comes THIS close to GM's numbers with mostly CONSUMER vehicles, not nearly as many commerical vehicles, and with only THREE brands (Toyota, Lexus, Scion). That's pretty fuckin impressive IMO.

[Particle Man]

29-33 miles per gallon on the highway

The technology exists to be so much better. Use it.

[Mr Lefty]

does Toyota do commercial overseas though? I know Izzuzu and Mitsubishi do... but not sure about Toyota. :idk:

[Homeslice]

The technology exists to be so much better. Use it.

plus one

30 MPG is like early-mid 1980's numbers.......Not impressive.

[Particle Man]

plus one

30 MPG is like early-mid 1980's numbers.......Not impressive.

what kills me is that people see an Escalade that gets in the high teens and they're acting like it's the best thing in the world.

Wake up!!

[Homeslice]

what kills me is that people see an Escalade that gets in the high teens and they're acting like it's the best thing in the world.

Wake up!!

0.5 + 0.5

Part of me wishes gas prices were still $4 :lmao:

[Particle Man]

0.5 + 0.5

Part of me wishes gas prices were still $4 :lmao:

Produce a current size SUV that gets in the 30's and the sucker will sell like mad around here with the weather we get.

(sneaky btw :lol:)

[Mr Lefty]

doesn't the new esclade hibrid get mid 30's? course it's probably 60k+

[Particle Man]

doesn't the new esclade hibrid get mid 30's? course it's probably 60k+

no.

20 mpg city / 21 mpg hwy

http://autos.yahoo.com/cadillac_escalade_hybrid_2wd/;_ylc=X3oDMTBybXF0cjE1BF9TAzk3MjY0NTAyBHNlYwNzbXgE c2xrA3NteA--?refsrc=offnetwork%2Fcpc%2FPI

[Mr Lefty]

REALLY? most hybrids get much better city than hwy... I'd figure at LEAST mid 30's in town...

what a fuck'n waste...

[Particle Man]

REALLY? most hybrids get much better city than hwy... I'd figure at LEAST mid 30's in town...

what a fuck'n waste...

and people are ooooh'ing and ahhh'ing over the damn thing. I just don't get it.

[Corey]

doesn't the new esclade hibrid get mid 30's? course it's probably 60k+

Hybrid SUV's are like tupperware containers filled with feces. There's no point to it and the end product is still shit.

[Mr Lefty]

and people are ooooh'ing and ahhh'ing over the damn thing. I just don't get it.

no shit... I'm not big on the hybrid thing in the first place... I rented a prius just cause it was that or a cobalt.. :lol: decent little car... just odd... wouldn't spend the money for the Hybrid fad though... not when I can drive MY truck for another 20 years and probably cause less harm to the enviroment than if I bought a Hybrid and drove it for those same 20 years

Hybrid SUV's are like tupperware containers filled with feces. There's no point to it and the end product is still shit.

well honestly... for the esclade though it's a good idea... I mean really... most esclades are for in town crusing... most don't use them to tow... and usually they have 1 to 2 passangers... so if you could get the Hybrid versions to get 35mpg in city... it'd be awesome.

more money for DUB Sixes!

[Particle Man]

I had a prius as a rental in ft lauderdale last year. I'd have been better off hitching a dead cat to a radio flyer.

[Mr Lefty]

I had a prius as a rental in ft lauderdale last year. I'd have been better off hitching a dead cat to a radio flyer.

well yeah... not much for power... but I drive a toyota pickup with 33's and I haven't geared it... so I'm used to a lack of power.

[Corey]

no shit... I'm not big on the hybrid thing in the first place... I rented a prius just cause it was that or a cobalt.. :lol: decent little car... just odd... wouldn't spend the money for the Hybrid fad though... not when I can drive MY truck for another 20 years and probably cause less harm to the enviroment than if I bought a Hybrid and drove it for those same 20 years



well honestly... for the esclade though it's a good idea... I mean really... most esclades are for in town crusing... most don't use them to tow... and usually they have 1 to 2 passangers... so if you could get the Hybrid versions to get 35mpg in city... it'd be awesome.

more money for DUB Sixes!

If someone is using an Escalade to cruise around town and bitching about fuel mileage, they're wasting far more than gas. They're burning off what precious few brain cells still exist to maintain a heartbeat and breathing functions. Higher brain functioning and cognitive thought are probably long since gone. They're at risk of dying a slow, stupid death.

[Mr Lefty]

If someone is using an Escalade to cruise around town and bitching about fuel mileage, they're wasting far more than gas. They're burning off what precious few brain cells still exist to maintain a heartbeat and breathing functions. Higher brain functioning and cognitive thought are probably long since gone. They're at risk of dying a slow, stupid death.

while cruzing their Escalade no doubt :lol:

[Particle Man]

If someone is using an Escalade to cruise around town and bitching about fuel mileage

you've never listened to the lyrics to "Low Rider" have you? :lol:

[Corey]

you've never listened to the lyrics to "Low Rider" have you? :lol:

If you're not referring to the song by War, then no, sorry. Hip Hop = Source of AIDS

[Particle Man]

If you're not referring to the song by War, then no, sorry. Hip Hop = Source of AIDS

how about one of the tracks by Sedrick the Entertainer on Nelly's first big album? "Rollin' around in a big body 'Benz on $2 worth of gas" :lol:

[Corey]

how about one of the tracks by Sedrick the Entertainer on Nelly's first big album? "Rollin' around in a big body 'Benz on $2 worth of gas" :lol:

Again, Hip Hop = Source of AIDS. I prefer a life not dependent on AZT and a faint hope of an exotic cure.

[Particle Man]

If you're not referring to the song by War, then no, sorry. Hip Hop = Source of AIDS

the original "Low Rider" is a fucking classic dude. I'm more of a rock/alternative guy but Low Rider is Low Rider man!

[pauldun170]

I had a prius as a rental in ft lauderdale last year. I'd have been better off hitching a dead cat to a radio flyer.


:lol:

[Rsv1000R]

and people are ooooh'ing and ahhh'ing over the damn thing. I just don't get it.

It goes from getting ~15 mpg city to getting ~20 mpg, and because of that it's one of the few hybrids that you can pay for the added cost of the hybrid drive in fuel savings in say under 150,000 miles of driving.

A prius would need almost twice as many miles.

And at $1.50 a gal, they'll probably be in the landfill before they do.

[Homeslice]

I give it a year before gas is back up to $3.50 or so....

[pickle.of.doom]

I give it a year before gas is back up to $3.50 or so....

Then I give it a year and a half before it is legal to take out a hunting license on gas price speculators :)

[Homeslice]

Then I give it a year and a half before it is legal to take out a hunting license on gas price speculators :)

Better take out a hunting license on government, since all their bailouts are going to drive up inflation sooner or later

[Particle Man]

It goes from getting ~15 mpg city to getting ~20 mpg, and because of that it's one of the few hybrids that you can pay for the added cost of the hybrid drive in fuel savings in say under 150,000 miles of driving.

So it's a 30%+ increase, big deal. Put chrome on a turd, it's still a turd. Besides, the Prius is a joke anyhow... the mileage gain is crap compared to what it should be. I'm sorry, but there's no reason why cars (even the size of Escalades) can't get significantly better mileage than 20 mpg.

[Rsv1000R]

So it's a 30%+ increase, big deal. Put chrome on a turd, it's still a turd. Besides, the Prius is a joke anyhow... the mileage gain is crap compared to what it should be. I'm sorry, but there's no reason why cars (even the size of Escalades) can't get significantly better mileage than 20 mpg.

Ok, How?

Are you implying you know how, or just think they already know how, but because they are making money hand over fist, they're holding that back till they need it?

[Particle Man]

Ok, How?

Are you implying you know how, or just think they already know how, but because they are making money hand over fist, they're holding that back till they need it?

I'm implying that despite everything that's been said, we've known for years how to 1) make cars run on something other than petroleum products, 2) produce products that get significantly higher mileage even using petroleum products

GM is a great example: they would rather focus on producing gas hog SUV's and trucks rather than focus on smaller vehicles because it would cost too much to go the other way (and they're paying dearly for it). Point out one American car company that has had something other than a concept car come out that gets 50+ mpg or that has over half of it's production line get in the high 30's at least for gas mileage? I'm saying that there's no reason for it other than the all mighty dollar.

[Corey]

Ok, How?

Are you implying you know how, or just think they already know how, but because they are making money hand over fist, they're holding that back till they need it?

We know how to make moderate increases in mileage, but even if gas prices were $5 a gallon, it would be automotive death. Decrease horsepower, retune the engine, and re-gear the transmission. But increased MPG will still lose to 0-60, quarter mile, and horsepower numbers.

[pauldun170]

Lose weight...keep performance.

[Rsv1000R]

I'm implying that despite everything that's been said, we've known for years how to 1) make cars run on something other than petroleum products, 2) produce products that get significantly higher mileage even using petroleum products

GM is a great example: they would rather focus on producing gas hog SUV's and trucks rather than focus on smaller vehicles because it would cost too much to go the other way (and they're paying dearly for it). Point out one American car company that has had something other than a concept car come out that gets 50+ mpg or that has over half of it's production line get in the high 30's at least for gas mileage? I'm saying that there's no reason for it other than the all mighty dollar.

The market for the kind of car that'll actually get 50 mpg in the US IMO is limited, well it is unless gas is $4/gal. But even then companies that do make eco-shitboxes didn't make anywhere near enough to supply demand, and now there's no demand at all.

Maybe your idea of a car is a Fit, but it isn't mine. 50 mpg requires a small engine, and a very light car, Now I'm all for a CF vette, but they still cost to much, the manufacturing technology to do it cheap just doesn't exist yet. It'll probably have to be a manual, most people don't buy manuals. It'd have to very slow, not what I like to drive. Like Corey mentions you can increase torque, but that makes for engines that don't rev. They are doing variable valve timing which can widen the torque range, but it's not cheap.

[Corey]

Lose weight...keep performance.

That one is a little harder to do. The cost of increased safety regulations has been an increase in weight. Mass production of lighter cars would come at a steep price as they move into more expensive and harder to fabricate pieces.

[Rsv1000R]

Lose weight...keep performance.

How? And how are you going to do that and keep the cost down?

[Particle Man]

Lose weight...keep performance.

ok I know I'm fat but you don't have to insult me






redflip

[rider76]

I have a 2008 Chevy Malibu, US Gov vehicle I drive for work, it has 20,000 miles on it, all maintence has been performed on it. It is a huge piece of shit.

It starts, then dies and won't restart for about 5 minutes. No one can figure out why. It has rattles and squeaks, random sensors have gone out on it and it is on its third power steering pump..

This is your Motor Trend car of the year...

[HRCNICK11]

third power steering pump

Lemon law, you should look into it.


I'd also like to point out that some oil companys have been known to purchase battery patents that would help some it they were sold or released.


Oh the saturn EVO was not a concept car and was way ahead of its time.

[unknownroad]

Point out one American car company that has had something other than a concept car come out that gets 50+ mpg or that has over half of it's production line get in the high 30's at least for gas mileage?

Crosley. :pat:

[pauldun170]

How? And how are you going to do that and keep the cost down?

Mazda seems to be able to do it.

How bout not increasing the size of a car with each generation?

[Corey]

Mazda seems to be able to do it.

How bout not increasing the size of a car with each generation?

You almost have to. Customers read the magazines, see that Car A beat Car B because it had a more roomy interior and a bigger trunk, a wider and longer wheelbase, and more headroom, and they decide that those are the qualities that they want in a car as well.

Even Mazda isn't immune to it. The new 6 is a physically larger car than the old 6 to accommodate more interior space. It's also heavier, due to the increased size and the focus on eliminating thrashing and harsh noises with sound deadening materials to combat some of the noise complaints of the previous generation. The next generation 3 is larger, heavier, and has a larger engine that makes more power. The trade off is going to be a loss of fuel economy.

[Rsv1000R]

You almost have to. Customers read the magazines, see that Car A beat Car B because it had a more roomy interior and a bigger trunk, a wider and longer wheelbase, and more headroom, and they decide that those are the qualities that they want in a car as well.

Even Mazda isn't immune to it. The new 6 is a physically larger car than the old 6 to accommodate more interior space. It's also heavier, due to the increased size and the focus on eliminating thrashing and harsh noises with sound deadening materials to combat some of the noise complaints of the previous generation. The next generation 3 is larger, heavier, and has a larger engine that makes more power. The trade off is going to be a loss of fuel economy.

Word!

[pauldun170]

You almost have to. Customers read the magazines, see that Car A beat Car B because it had a more roomy interior and a bigger trunk, a wider and longer wheelbase, and more headroom, and they decide that those are the qualities that they want in a car as well.

Even Mazda isn't immune to it. The new 6 is a physically larger car than the old 6 to accommodate more interior space. It's also heavier, due to the increased size and the focus on eliminating thrashing and harsh noises with sound deadening materials to combat some of the noise complaints of the previous generation. The next generation 3 is larger, heavier, and has a larger engine that makes more power. The trade off is going to be a loss of fuel economy.

The America Market gained size because of Market planners. The ROW version which would meet US regs is smaller.

Another Example is the new Z

[pauldun170]

So basically we like to complain that American cars get poor economny and weigh two tons...but we want every car to be bigger with each generation.

Toss in comments that regs and safety equipment force up weight (difficult to measure because each redisgn adds physical size.."because the market demand bigger cars")

[Corey]

So basically we like to complain that American cars get poor economny and weigh two tons...but we want every car to be bigger with each generation.

Toss in comments that regs and safety equipment force up weight (difficult to measure because each redisgn adds physical size.."because the market demand bigger cars")

We're a fickle group of consumers that want everything. That's just the way it is. We want a sedan that will fit 5 adults with out their knees touching, 0-60 times in the high 5 second/low 6 second range, horsepower figures that rival or surpass sports cars of 15 years ago, with an interior that's whisper quiet, with 100 airbags, all while making 30 to 40 mpg. That's all well and good, but the performance requires more gas, the sound proofing adds more weight, the larger wheel base to accommodate 5 full sized adults adds even more weight, those fancy 19" or 20" factory rims that people want for style purposes adds even more weight and affects handling and bump absorption, so more shit needs to be added to smooth out the ride. And just when company A puts out the latest sedan that meets most of those criteria, company B announces their next generation sedan that is slightly bigger, has slightly more interior room, makes 15 more horsepower, and accelerates to 60 in 5.8 seconds instead of company A's 5.9.

It's a vicious cycle that continues on this way because those are the things that are most important in deciding our tastes in automobiles. Sure there was a temporary cry of indignation over gas mileage, but that was still aimed more at the cost of gas prices rather than the progress that car companies have made in producing fuel efficient vehicles. The people only started turning their anger towards the auto companies when they started to believe that gas would never drop below $4/gallon and they felt powerless to do anything about it. Since they couldn't change the gas prices, they could point fingers and shift blame to the auto makers for not producing more fuel efficient cars, even though the purchasing history of the American public showed that they were much more interested in trucks and SUV's with higher power outputs and seating for seven.

[Particle Man]

Crosley. :pat:

:lol:

I'll run right down to the local dealership and... oh wait :lmao:

[Rsv1000R]

We're a fickle group of consumers that want everything. That's just the way it is. We want a sedan that will fit 5 adults with out their knees touching, 0-60 times in the high 5 second/low 6 second range, horsepower figures that rival or surpass sports cars of 15 years ago, with an interior that's whisper quiet, with 100 airbags, all while making 30 to 40 mpg. That's all well and good, but the performance requires more gas, the sound proofing adds more weight, the larger wheel base to accommodate 5 full sized adults adds even more weight, those fancy 19" or 20" factory rims that people want for style purposes adds even more weight and affects handling and bump absorption, so more shit needs to be added to smooth out the ride. And just when company A puts out the latest sedan that meets most of those criteria, company B announces their next generation sedan that is slightly bigger, has slightly more interior room, makes 15 more horsepower, and accelerates to 60 in 5.8 seconds instead of company A's 5.9.

It's a vicious cycle that continues on this way because those are the things that are most important in deciding our tastes in automobiles. Sure there was a temporary cry of indignation over gas mileage, but that was still aimed more at the cost of gas prices rather than the progress that car companies have made in producing fuel efficient vehicles. The people only started turning their anger towards the auto companies when they started to believe that gas would never drop below $4/gallon and they felt powerless to do anything about it. Since they couldn't change the gas prices, they could point fingers and shift blame to the auto makers for not producing more fuel efficient cars, even though the purchasing history of the American public showed that they were much more interested in trucks and SUV's with higher power outputs and seating for seven.

Ding, Ding, Ding!

[HRCNICK11]

All true until you factor in the Toyota Penis (yes I typed it that way on purpose). When you factor in that this car is slow, gutless, will not last as long, will cost more to fix, is bad for the planet(batterys), expensive, and only gets slightly better mileage and it sell like hot cakes purely because of marketing.

In truth US consumers are dumb yes thats right I called you and I dumb. We buy shit we can't pay for, that we don't need, might not want if we knew better(had a clue) and we do it because someone down the street did.

[Rsv1000R]

All true until you factor in the Toyota Penis (yes I typed it that way on purpose). When you factor in that this car is slow, gutless, will not last as long, will cost more to fix, is bad for the planet(batterys), expensive, and only gets slightly better mileage and it sell like hot cakes purely because of marketing.

In truth US consumers are dumb yes thats right I called you and I dumb. We buy shit we can't pay for, that we don't need, might not want if we knew better(had a clue) and we do it because someone down the street did.

I'm not sure what the volume of hybrid cars are, But I'd be surprised if it still wasn't a small % of car produced.

And what sold them out was $4/gal gas in the US. I've seen gas at $1.59 in the last week. Though I suspect we will see a shift in consumer spending, Much of it ill informed, but a shift none the less.

[pauldun170]

I'm not sure what the volume of hybrid cars are, But I'd be surprised if it still wasn't a small % of car produced.

And what sold them out was $4/gal gas in the US. I've seen gas at $1.59 in the last week. Though I suspect we will see a shift in consumer spending, Much of it ill informed, but a shift none the less.


Hybrids current have 3% of the market.
They qualify as fad cars with all the hippy nonsense in the media.

However, as automotive appliances they work. You may get all caught up in the cost benefit of them but they are just cars that chase a different performance metric and there has always been a market for that.

In a way this goes to the whole "Americans want bigger cars that use less gas" thing and here you have vehicles that offer plenty of room and get the economy of smaller cars.


Of course the folks who like to claim that "My Impala get's 40mpg!!" screw the Prius are always entertaining but the fact is no...your Impala does not average 40mpg...despite the one time you are on the highway and the readout said 40mpg.

[HRCNICK11]

Of course the folks who like to claim that "My Impala get's 40mpg!!" screw the Prius are always entertaining but the fact is no...your Impala does not average 40mpg...despite the one time you are on the highway and the readout said 40mpg.

Goes hand in hand with my prius gets 60 cause it said that on the dash while I was coasing down the back road.

PS for the record my DRZ can get 65 or so under 60mph all while kicking a prius ass.

[Rsv1000R]

Hybrids current have 3% of the market.
They qualify as fad cars with all the hippy nonsense in the media.

However, as automotive appliances they work. You may get all caught up in the cost benefit of them but they are just cars that chase a different performance metric and there has always been a market for that.

In a way this goes to the whole "Americans want bigger cars that use less gas" thing and here you have vehicles that offer plenty of room and get the economy of smaller cars.


Of course the folks who like to claim that "My Impala get's 40mpg!!" screw the Prius are always entertaining but the fact is no...your Impala does not average 40mpg...despite the one time you are on the highway and the readout said 40mpg.

I see them being sold on 2 fronts to those hippies who should have gone to their science and math class and skipped smoking a joint:
1)they cost less to own and operate
2)they are better for the environment.

And IMO they fail on both. Large vehicle hybrids do the best on the first, But it's still hard to justify the cost difference based on savings. And from what I've heard their manufacture is worse for the enviroment than normal cars.

[pauldun170]

I see them being sold on 2 fronts to those hippies who should have gone to their science and math class and skipped smoking a joint:
1)they cost less to own and operate
2)they are better for the environment.

And IMO they fail on both. Large vehicle hybrids do the best on the first, But it's still hard to justify the cost difference based on savings. And from what I've heard their manufacture is worse for the enviroment than normal cars.


Maybe...just maybe...while some of us are looking for the most HP or someone is looking for the most airbags..
Maybe some people get there kicks out of the little MPG number?

[Rsv1000R]

Maybe...just maybe...while some of us are looking for the most HP or someone is looking for the most airbags..
Maybe some people get there kicks out of the little MPG number?

Yeah, maybe ~3% of them, I'm just not sure I want their kind of car, and unfortunately I think that's what we're going to end up with for choices.

[pauldun170]

Yeah, maybe ~3% of them, I'm just not sure I want their kind of car, and unfortunately I think that's what we're going to end up with for choices.

I agree.

I recognize the Prius for what it is and the market it caters too. Same goes for the Escape Hybrid. As an automobile, I think it has value.

However...I'm an asshole. I prefer purity in my cars. I'd rather an old Miata than new GT-r. I'd rather a manual transmission over a "faster" DSG or automatic. I'd trade pure grip for communicative steering and chassis.

I'd do not want to drive a video game. I want something with gears controlled by man and a powerplant the relies on explosions.

[Rsv1000R]

I'd do not want to drive a video game. I want something with gears controlled by man and a powerplant the relies on explosions.

Soon enough we won't even be driving our electric cars.......