ANALYST: Chrysler can't survive even with gov't aid

[pauldun170]

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/11/analyst-chrysler-cant-survive-even-with-govt-aid/

[Corey]

Whatever happened to that GM/Chrysler merger talk that happened not more than two or three months ago? No go because of the Titanic trying to rescue the Lucitania?

[BobTheBiker]

down with their junk!

[ducati_atx]

why not just let the company die?

pretty sure we could do ok without pontiac, buick, and chrysler.

[Chris S]

If Cerberus' filthy rich private equity owners aren't willing to put another dime in Chrysler, why should they expect the taxpayers to do so?

Fuck 'em, they bought Chrysler to make a quick buck, let them deal w/ the consequences.

[BobTheBiker]

agreed. I dont see any reason to keep a failing company alive longer. fuck, let em cease operaraions and let toyota or honda buy up the factories to expand their markets more.

[Corey]

why not just let the company die?

pretty sure we could do ok without pontiac, buick, and chrysler.

Not sure about the Chrysler situation, but GM is in a bind with Pontiac and Buick (and any of their other subdivisions). There are laws in many states that protect dealerships from GM pulling the plug on one of their brands. I don't recall the specifics, but if they were to shut down Buick or Pontiac, they'd have to pay out the nose to compensate the network of dealerships that carry that product. If Chrysler went tits up and declared bankruptcy, I believe that would be a different situation.

[ducati_atx]

Not sure about the Chrysler situation, but GM is in a bind with Pontiac and Buick (and any of their other subdivisions). There are laws in many states that protect dealerships from GM pulling the plug on one of their brands. I don't recall the specifics, but if they were to shut down Buick or Pontiac, they'd have to pay out the nose to compensate the network of dealerships that carry that product. If Chrysler went tits up and declared bankruptcy, I believe that would be a different situation.

Which is why they need to file Chapter ?? (insert 13 or 11 there) so that they can bypass those and close down brands.


Pretty damn sure hummer can go too.

[DLIT]

Does this mean that they're gonna get their bailout money, the higher ups will do what they please with it, and then the company will just wither off and die?

[Corey]

Does this mean that they're gonna get their bailout money, the higher ups will do what they please with it, and then the company will just wither off and die?

No, it means they'll get their bailouts, the higher ups will do what they please with it, and they'll be back again this time next year lobbying for another bailout because they're under the impression that the world will explode without them.

[Rsv1000R]

agreed. I dont see any reason to keep a failing company alive longer. fuck, let em cease operaraions and let toyota or honda buy up the factories to expand their markets more.

What makes you think this is going to happen? They're not going to buy up those factories, they don't need them, and probably don't want them where they're at. If you've noticed, they don't build cars in the same places that Detroit has factories. And that's probably for a reason.

[azoomm]

I'm so sick of us bailing everyone out. What the hell... they just said on teh news that the companies are sure they wouldn't be able to survive the next few WEEKS without the cash.

Like, this is a surprise??!? As if they didn't know, until now, that they only had months left to pay their bills, leases, employees??

How about, we don't give them any money to do with what they please... and it dies?

[Rsv1000R]

I'm so sick of us bailing everyone out. What the hell... they just said on teh news that the companies are sure they wouldn't be able to survive the next few WEEKS without the cash.

Like, this is a surprise??!? As if they didn't know, until now, that they only had months left to pay their bills, leases, employees??

How about, we don't give them any money to do with what they please... and it dies?

You didn't notice the economy blowup a couple months ago, kinda unexpectedly?

Did you read Honda's leaving F1? (http://www.twowheelfix.com/showthread.php?t=4130)

[azoomm]

You didn't notice the economy blowup a couple months ago, kinda unexpectedly?

Did you read Honda's leaving F1? (http://www.twowheelfix.com/showthread.php?t=4130)

No, I saw that.

But, I'm curious... was it that the banks announced they were in trouble, and got bailed out. So, are the others truly in trouble and were looking at solutions for the past year - and saw them bailed so have their hand out? Or, were they just going to let it fail on it's own? Or, did they know they were in trouble?

Is it that one industry got bailed out - so the others are circling the wagons to all get money??

[HRCNICK11]

I live and work in Michigan and my company does support (with machines and service) the auto industry. My personal take on this is I would have rather gave a loan to the auto industry than to give a hand out to the banking industry.

But I'd rather not do either. Its too late with the banks and that pisses me off the people that are in Washignton to represent us did the opposite of what we asked for.

Again I think giving the autos a loan would be better than what was given to the banks.

In all truth if the US government was smart(they are not) they should give a tax break to people that invest in the auto industry. In other words give a 5 year no capital gains tax on all auto stocks. Then let the markets decide if people think in 5 years the auto company will be worth more than today they will lend there money to that company if not they will not.

Or go a step farther, the government could insure investments in the auto industry like they do a bank account. I'm sure many investers would love to buy stocks that have a insured value.

If either of the 2 things were done I would invest in Ford in a heart beat Maybe GM but not Chrysler.

[Particle Man]

why not just let the company die?

because all the people making $75 an hour putting lug nuts on all day wouldn't know what to do...


(that was only partial sarcasm)

[Rsv1000R]

No, I saw that.

But, I'm curious... was it that the banks announced they were in trouble, and got bailed out. So, are the others truly in trouble and were looking at solutions for the past year - and saw them bailed so have their hand out? Or, were they just going to let it fail on it's own? Or, did they know they were in trouble?

Is it that one industry got bailed out - so the others are circling the wagons to all get money??

It's my belief that Detroit would have continued to muddle along producing a huge number of cars, slowly rebuilding it's quality reputation, while trying to deal with the UAW, and their legacy health care costs. If it looked like gas prices would drive a shift to smaller cars, they'd bring out smaller more advanced drive cars, If not they'd crank the truck and SUV lines back up.

It's my opinion a lose of even one of them will bring a huge impact to the economy, and then the tax payers will be providing a handout to all of the people who are dependent on them, Retires, some stockholders, and all of the unemployed generated.

They're not still making buggies, and god forbid we need the plants to build tanks and planes like they did in WW2.

[ducati_atx]

because all the people making $75 an hour putting lug nuts on all day wouldn't know what to do...


(that was only partial sarcasm)

;)

Im guessing the would quickly figure out they should look for a job making 10-12/hr. ;)

[Particle Man]

;)

Im guessing the would quickly figure out they should look for a job making 10-12/hr. ;)

they could save themselves some time and not have to look - and they'll probably still be making more than 3 times that.

[ducati_atx]

they could save themselves some time and not have to look - and they'll probably still be making more than 3 times that.


Ya - the only "sticking point" was about 2-3/hr according to the news. Damn, take a paycut and not risk being unemployed. Of course, in the end - they probably know they can play hardball cause someone with no nuts in our government will hop in and bail them out so they get re-elected.

[Particle Man]

Ya - the only "sticking point" was about 2-3/hr according to the news. Damn, take a paycut and not risk being unemployed. Of course, in the end - they probably know they can play hardball cause someone with no nuts in our government will hop in and bail them out so they get re-elected.

last I heard the plan was to try to get the sec treas to give them a short term loan until Obama gets in and a new congress is in - Obama has said that the auto industry can't collapse so it would basically be biding their time until they had someone sympathetic to them who will give them the $ without the consessions...

[marko138]

Ya - the only "sticking point" was about 2-3/hr according to the news. Damn, take a paycut and not risk being unemployed. Of course, in the end - they probably know they can play hardball cause someone with no nuts in our government will hop in and bail them out so they get re-elected.

I think you're right about that. It's all bullshit. These asshole union motherfuckers can't take a pay cut to get the bailout...but in the end they know some dick licker will give them their loot anyway. At the end of the day they are fucked anyway...this same bullshit will happen again next year or two years down the road. They'll go under eventually. The bottom line is Detroit is not making cars that Americans want to buy.

[Rsv1000R]

The bottom line is Detroit is not making cars that Americans want to buy.


Show me actual sales numbers that prove this?

I think GM sells more cars and trucks in the US that anyone else. That's a lot of americans buying american cars.

Most of the people on here wouldn't buy an american car even if it was a designed they liked (except maybe Paul, so sit there like a good boy, and don't give me any lip about how you'd buy a car if you liked it :-) )

[pauldun170]

Show me actual sales numbers that prove this?

I think GM sells more cars and trucks in the US that anyone else. That's a lot of americans buying american cars.

Most of the people on here wouldn't buy an american car even if it was a designed they liked (except maybe Paul, so sit there like a good boy, and don't give me any lip about how you'd buy a car if you liked it :-) )
:pwhore2:

[Particle Man]

Show me actual sales numbers that prove this?

I think GM sells more cars and trucks in the US that anyone else. That's a lot of americans buying american cars.

Most of the people on here wouldn't buy an american car even if it was a designed they liked (except maybe Paul, so sit there like a good boy, and don't give me any lip about how you'd buy a car if you liked it :-) )

so we've established that the sales aren't the problem then (almost)... so we're back to the fact that they're pissing away their $$ paying someone a ton of money to do less work than the average fast food worker...

[Rsv1000R]

so we've established that the sales aren't the problem then (almost)... so we're back to the fact that they're pissing away their $$ paying someone a ton of money to do less work than the average fast food worker...

IMO it's 4 things:
Legacy healthcare costs for retires.
High Union Wages
A constriction on their credit lines from the financial melt down
Fewer people are buying cars ( from what I hear, a lot fewer)

I'll also say their build mix of big cars/suv's vs small cars was wrong for $4/gal gas. We'll have to see how scaring that was to car buyers.

[Homeslice]

Show me actual sales numbers that prove this?

I think GM sells more cars and trucks in the US that anyone else. That's a lot of americans buying american cars.

A large portion of this is fleet sales, as well as government sales. I don't know about State governments, but most Federal agencies probably don't want to be seen driving imports.

Not to mention all the Big Three employees and their suppliers who drive American only because they're expected to. I wouldn't call those sales an honest measure of consumer demand.

And when you go to rent a car, how many Civics and Accords do you see? I have never seen ONE in a rental fleet. Why? because there are enough regular customers who want to buy them, at higher profits, so Honda does not need to pawn them off to rental fleets. That's not true for the Big Three.