Passing rules

[05svr650]

How well do these days go with the current passing rules?

Do you have to start out in group 1?

Passing only in the straights, doesn't that put a damper on the faster guys with less hp that can pass in the corners but can't compete with the high hp guys on the straights?

[smileyman]

If you are fast, bump to race group where they allow corner passes?:idk:

[05svr650]

"Passing
Group 1 - no passing unless the rider in front signals for a safe pass on the OUTSIDE (to the left) of the front rider.
Group 2 - passing only allowed in the straights and on the outside (to the left) of the front rider. "

I didnt see a race group.

[Archren]

"Passing
Group 1 - no passing unless the rider in front signals for a safe pass on the OUTSIDE (to the left) of the front rider.
Group 2 - passing only allowed in the straights and on the outside (to the left) of the front rider. "

I didnt see a race group.

Moira will pretty much tell you that the rules are there for a reason.. no passing means no passing. Period.

There is no "race" group.. and you have to have ridden in group 1 first for Elite personnel to evaluate your riding before you're allowed in group 2 (the "fast" group, if you will).

[smileyman]

"Passing
Group 1 - no passing unless the rider in front signals for a safe pass on the OUTSIDE (to the left) of the front rider.
Group 2 - passing only allowed in the straights and on the outside (to the left) of the front rider. "

I didnt see a race group.

No race group means find another track day organization or get your novice license!!! You won't learn anything lapping behind some slow bozo every corner (even if you only pass in the straights you WILL catch another slow bozo before the next corner!)

[Trip]

He rides a SV too, passing on the straight will be tough against 600s and above unless he just late breaks them going in or builds a ton of corner speed coming out.

[Archren]

No race group means find another track day organization or get your novice license!!! You won't learn anything lapping behind some slow bozo every corner (even if you only pass in the straights you WILL catch another slow bozo before the next corner!)

I wouldn't say you wouldn't learn *anything*... Besides, some of the local racers/instructors ride at Elite's track days. :shrug:

[xx CURVE xx]

Tards can only pass on the inside :whistle:

[azoomm]

First of all - EVERYONE starts in Group 1. There are very few people that have gone directly to Group 2, and those are people that are known and trusted by myself or my staff.

I suggest you do the first session, then be evaluated by a staff member. If you qualify you will be moved up. It's that simple. At the very least, you need a session to learn the track.

No race group means find another track day organization or get your novice license!!! You won't learn anything lapping behind some slow bozo every corner (even if you only pass in the straights you WILL catch another slow bozo before the next corner!)

There are 20 people on the track with you when it's at capacity. If you find it difficult finding personal space on a 1.8 mile course with 20 people there might be a larger problem.

Yes, I have strict passing rules. Hell, I even enforce a rev-limit in Group 1 every now and then so people aren't just out there racing to the next corner. I am perfectly fine with people bitching about the rules. The truth is, every person that has had a problem with it before attending an event has become REALLY quiet about it after coming out to play.

[xx CURVE xx]

First of all - EVERYONE starts in Group 1. There are very few people that have gone directly to Group 2, and those are people that are known and trusted by myself or my staff.

I suggest you do the first session, then be evaluated by a staff member. If you qualify you will be moved up. It's that simple. At the very least, you need a session to learn the track.



There are 20 people on the track with you when it's at capacity. If you find it difficult finding personal space on a 1.8 mile course with 20 people there might be a larger problem.

Yes, I have strict passing rules. Hell, I even enforce a rev-limit in Group 1 every now and then so people aren't just out there racing to the next corner. I am perfectly fine with people bitching about the rules. The truth is, every person that has had a problem with it before attending an event has become REALLY quiet about it after coming out to play.


what are the rules for "us" ...tards are "slow" :whistle:

[azoomm]

what are the rules for "us" ...tards are "slow" :whistle:

You still don't get to pass in the corners. Alex, there are plenty of tards out there to play with....

[xx CURVE xx]

You still don't get to pass in the corners. Alex, there are plenty of tards out there to play with....

but tards like to play in corners zoomy :(

[smileyman]

First of all - EVERYONE starts in Group 1. There are very few people that have gone directly to Group 2, and those are people that are known and trusted by myself or my staff.

I suggest you do the first session, then be evaluated by a staff member. If you qualify you will be moved up. It's that simple. At the very least, you need a session to learn the track.



There are 20 people on the track with you when it's at capacity. If you find it difficult finding personal space on a 1.8 mile course with 20 people there might be a larger problem.

Yes, I have strict passing rules. Hell, I even enforce a rev-limit in Group 1 every now and then so people aren't just out there racing to the next corner. I am perfectly fine with people bitching about the rules. The truth is, every person that has had a problem with it before attending an event has become REALLY quiet about it after coming out to play.

With only 20 people I suppose it isn't so bad. But whatta I know:idk: I got my prov nov cert and hit the track the next day running 2 practices and sprints in teh "meat grinder classes" (middleweights) with 2 wave starts and 40 bikes. I didn't track day until much later (5 years I think) and then it was in race group.:idk:

[Trip]

I guess a lot of the passes I tend to make at STT track days with a large group of strangers anyway are in the straights because I don't want to fuck anyones day up or get mine fucked up by someone running wide. Makes sense, probably saves a lot of headaches for large groups.

What do you consider the start of the corner zoomie? Is late braking allowed as long as you are in front before you actually start your progression into the corner?

[azoomm]

Oh, I'm not trying to tell you that you don't have experience - or that it will or will not make sense. I don't usually get into large explanations of why or how we do things online. There is a lot of mis-interpretation that comes with online written explanations, something I can't control with a verbal rider's meeting like I usually do.

Starting this company - one of the founding factors was getting rid of the group that is too fast [in their own mind] to be called slow. There is no other better way to explain it. We all know the group - and I know no one will ever claim to be *that guy*. It's the point-and-squirt, sand-baggers, and mental legends. And, they probably could qualify for a race group - but can handle being passed themselves, or maybe their ego can't. You should know exactly what I'm talking about.

I am making the best effort I can to protect the people that really truly belong in the Expert / Race group. The only way to do that is off personal evaluation and have EVERYONE earn the right to be there.

If a pass is to be made, there are a few spots on this particular track that make for an easy pass. And, by easy - I mean the rider in front will not ever have to do anything [brake, swerve, otherwise] in order for it to happen - as it should be. And, it isn't usually on a straight. By following another rider, it should become obvious where that pass can be done easily.

Is passing allowed? In Group 2 - yes. In Group 1 - online I will tell you no.

If passing is going to make or break your day, we might not be the place for you to come play.

[ROADandTRACK]

Point and Squirt!!! lol



I love you, Moira. :-)

[azoomm]

Point and Squirt!!! lol



I love you, Moira. :-)

I love you too Keith!! :nee:

[baninja]

No race group means find another track day organization or get your novice license!!! You won't learn anything lapping behind some slow bozo every corner (even if you only pass in the straights you WILL catch another slow bozo before the next corner!)


Just because there is no "race group" doesn't mean there aren't fast riders in group 2. In fact, a good number of the people that run in group 2 are licensed racers. IIRC passing is allowed in the straights for the morning sessions in group 2. Passing while entering a turn or on the exit of a turn is usually allowed in the afternoon sessions for group 2 only. Moira can correct me if I'm wrong. Stuffing another rider (mid turn passing) is not needed during a trackday. If the rider is truly fast he/she will find a safe place to pass if they need too. My 12 year old son has never had an issue on his RS85 or his RS125, and he passes 85% of the riders in group 2. A racer on a SV650 or 1000 shouldn't have a problem either.

[Dnyce]

just curious, how do u physically enforce a rev limit? i understand making mention of it, but without tach recall or being on the back seat, id think its kinda hard, no?

[azoomm]

just curious, how do u physically enforce a rev limit? i understand making mention of it, but without tach recall or being on the back seat, id think its kinda hard, no?

It is obvious when observing the track who is smooth and consistent, and who is not.

Or, do you mean to ask what the penalty is?

[Mr Lefty]

I think he means how do you know how's hitting 12000RPM and who's hitting 12500... ya know?

[azoomm]

I think he means how do you know how's hitting 12000RPM and who's hitting 12500... ya know?

Ah - it's more of a "race to the corner" rule. As it's explained, the intent is to have people maintain a consistent and smooth lap rather than parking it in the corners and binning it in the straights.

[Mr Lefty]

ahh ok... gotcha...

[Dnyce]

I think he means how do you know how's hitting 12000RPM and who's hitting 12500... ya know?

exactly what i meant, thats how i interpreted the rule the way she said it...

Ah - it's more of a "race to the corner" rule. As it's explained, the intent is to have people maintain a consistent and smooth lap rather than parking it in the corners and binning it in the straights.

...but apparently i misunderstood it. gd idea though, parkin in the corners causes accidents

[smileyman]

Just because there is no "race group" doesn't mean there aren't fast riders in group 2. In fact, a good number of the people that run in group 2 are licensed racers. IIRC passing is allowed in the straights for the morning sessions in group 2. Passing while entering a turn or on the exit of a turn is usually allowed in the afternoon sessions for group 2 only. Moira can correct me if I'm wrong. Stuffing another rider (mid turn passing) is not needed during a trackday. If the rider is truly fast he/she will find a safe place to pass if they need too. My 12 year old son has never had an issue on his RS85 or his RS125, and he passes 85% of the riders in group 2. A racer on a SV650 or 1000 shouldn't have a problem either.

I concur. I was just pointing out the need to be in a race group or an actual race if you REALLY need/want to pass in the corners. I am a former CMRA racer and I run 2nd group when I am on my street equipped bike. When I am fully race prepped and have proper rubber I run race group.

[ilVoce]

...but apparently i misunderstood it. gd idea though, parkin in the corners causes accidents

Yes. Yes it does.

[deals gap dragon slayer]

parking it on the corners is for people who don't have theability to be smooth around the track or can't make their bike turn... in which case they are in over their head.

Last track day i rode in, my instructor thought my zx10 was a 600 as easily as i was throwing it around

[was92v]

My first and last track day with street riders ended when some dude parked going into a 100MPH turn, right on the fast line.
I missed him but I took a long slide, got a hole in my arm that showed bone and a twisted bike in the process. Would have been nice if he had at least looked me up and said sorry...
I think he was afraid I might be unfriendly about it. Someone said he was a worried that I might be unhappy about it. I didn't even ask who it was.

Actually I was disappointed that my bike was bent, but thats a risk you take and after all I was the one riding the thing. I didn't really get all that upset, but I never went to another track day unless it was a race practice with racers only.

Now, more than a decade later, I'm thinking about doing one, maybe.

[deals gap dragon slayer]

Is passing allowed? In Group 2 - yes. In Group 1 - online I will tell you no.


I'll have to keep that in mind :)

I know you can't say cus its on here, but I'm taking this as basically a situation of, if you're in group 1 you shouldnt pass, BUT if you know what you're doing, and are consistantly smooth and safe, its tolerable...

[TrackRider54]

I am hoping to come down to Tally and wave flags for Elite at the end of the month with a friend of mine who did some corner work last year.

I've ridden with NESBA, STT, PTT, Ed Bargy Racing School, and Reg Pridmore CLASS.

All of them have slight variations on the rules, but the rules are there for safety. I've seen a guy get a helicopter ride out of Barber, seen ambulances haul people away too. I don't want to be one of them.

I remind myself that the point of a track day is to have fun and work on skills....not to be the fastest guy on the track or set the track record lap time. There are no trophies at the end of a track day.

If I get behind someone who is a "parker".....wide open in the straights and parks it in the corner....and I can't safely pass him. I'll simply ride through hot pit.

Having ridden in novice, intermediate, and advanced groups....I can tell you that I feel the advanced group is the safer group. I'm typically mid pack in the intermediate group, and one of the slower guys (if not the slowest) in the advanced group, but I feel safer riding with the more advanced riders.

I like the idea of riders having to be evaluated before they are allowed to bump up. If you're a good, safe, smooth rider, you don't need to be fast to ride in the advanced group. As long as you hold your line and don't do anything stupid (and don't get spooked by close passes), then that's the best place to be. But if you're all over the place, running wide in the turns, not running a consistent line, etc.....even if you're fast as hell....things happen REAL fast at 100+mph. Best not to be the cause of someone riding the helicopter.

[the chi]

Im curious, ya'll have mentioned the "evaluation" to decide which group someone should be in a few times. Is this something not done typically?

Every track day Ive ever been at, and Im honest with myself, and put myself in the group I belong in. I know others dont, BUT, the CR's always make sure to watch and move people as needed, basically evaluating them and moving tem for safety's sake. So its something I just accepted as always being there. Is it not?

[TrackRider54]

That's the way it should work. I typically do the same thing. 90% of the time I ride in intermediate, but I've done a few track days in the advanced group. Honestly, I like it better there, even though I'm one of the slower guys on the track.

I hold my line, do my thing, don't ride over my head, and I'm not bothered at all by someone going around me.

[azoomm]

Im curious, ya'll have mentioned the "evaluation" to decide which group someone should be in a few times. Is this something not done typically?

Every track day Ive ever been at, and Im honest with myself, and put myself in the group I belong in. I know others dont, BUT, the CR's always make sure to watch and move people as needed, basically evaluating them and moving tem for safety's sake. So its something I just accepted as always being there. Is it not?

I've been to quite a few events with other orgs that people just drop themselves into whatever group their friends are in. Or, one group is sold out - so they put people into another group. :idk:

I am VERY protective of my upper group. There have been plenty of people that have told me they should be there that didn't make the cut... for various reasons.

[the chi]

I've been to quite a few events with other orgs that people just drop themselves into whatever group their friends are in. Or, one group is sold out - so they put people into another group. :idk:

I am VERY protective of my upper group. There have been plenty of people that have told me they should be there that didn't make the cut... for various reasons.


Thats scary! :panic:

I've been to TD's where people were in the wrong group, like intermediates in novice, so they can pass people and not get passed, but they get moved pretty quickly, usually for being asshats.

Ive finally started making intermediate times and I think I'll still be doing a few more days in novice, I want to be a SOLID intermediate, so the rest of the crazies dont kill me.

[deals gap dragon slayer]

I agree on feeling safer and more secure in the advanced groups. The riders aren't unpredictable like some of the newbs can be (whether they realize it or not.. but hey at least they're there looking to learn)... However, make sure your bike is up to it...

My last track day of '08 was my first time really gettin on it with the zx10...

It was also the day I discovered the design flaw on the front brakes.

[TrackRider54]

I've always believed that the group you ride in has far less to do with what lap times you run, but more a factor of your experience and ability to control the bike.

I've seen kids on 125cc two strokers running in advanced group, and I know they weren't able to turn the same lap times as an expert riding a literbike.

I think advanced groups should be just that....for advanced riders. Not just those who can turn a fast lap. I've seen a LOT of fast guys that I don't want anywhere near me on a track, and I've seen some guys who I KNOW are excellent riders turn several seconds a lap slower than I do. Doesn't mean they aren't good riders, just means they are working on a specific part of their riding, or they are learning the track.

I just received confirmation that I'll be waving flags at Tally on the 28th. I've never ridden with Elite, so I'm looking forward to getting to know the guys and eventually doing a day with them.

It will be REALLY hard to wave flags while I see all the bikes going around. If any of you guys are down there, I hope I don't get to meet you. LOL! Don't run over the flag waving Sasquatch! :)

[Bradlee_t]

My last track day of '08 was my first time really gettin on it with the zx10...

It was also the day I discovered the design flaw on the front brakes.

The brakes are crap. I can't believe how bad mine were until I upgraded.:panic: