worthy of death penalty?

[RACER X]

PASADENA, Texas—Even law enforcement officers were shocked when a Pasadena man was arrested with ten 500-gigabyte hard drives full of child pornography.

Investigators said that is more child porn than anyone arrested in Texas has ever had.

They said the man likely committed crimes against children every two days.

Investigators arrested John Sandel, 69, at his home on Pine in Pasadena.

They said his pornographic images mostly involved infants.

“The possessions alleged he had images of abuse, bestiality—actual sexual intercourse and sexual intercourse,” Harris County prosecutor Eric Devlin said.

As bad as that sounds, long-time sex therapist Dr. Barbara Levinson said she doesn’t believe every man involved in that kind of criminal activity belongs in jail.

Levinson believes prevention is the key.

“Let’s talk about how we can prevent this and how if somebody does this, how we can treat them without locking them up and making a big deal out of it. Some people need to go to jail, they do. I’m in total agreement,” she said.

Levinson said she’d like to see something like a “porn court,” if you will, where a trained judge and prosecutor could determine whether a suspect would be better off in rehab, a hospital or jail.

“Certainly they have to stop their behavior. There is no doubt about it,” Levinson said.

But Harris County said a recent study conducted in a federal prison showed the majority of those who were charged only with child porn had, in fact, already actively sexually abused a child.

Levinson believes that study is inaccurate.

Even if it is, it will be a tall task to convince the public that those who commit crimes against kids shouldn’t be locked away for good

[OneSickPsycho]

Umm.... yeah... if anything is worthy, it's certainly this...

However, I fundamentally disagree with capital punishment... Not that I have some sort of human rights pussy stance... I just think there's more effective deterrents.

[PhiSig1071]

I think that the Death Penalty is a very outdated form of punishment that has become prohibitively expensive and no longer effective.

This guy? Hell no, think of what he's going to have to face in general prison population for the rest of his life! Death penalty would be getting off easy.

[Rider]

No death penalty. Let him get ass raped in prison everyday for the rest of his life.

[Angee]

Put him in general population...they'll take care of him. They just need to watch that he isn't killed too quickly.




Edit: I guess great minds think alike...:lol:

[Papa_Complex]

It's unclear: He was in possession of the material, or did he actually produce it himself? If the former, then jail. If the latter, then the death penalty is applicable. There are far too many credible professionals who believe that paedophiles are essentially incurable and if one has graduated to actually performing the atrocious acts himself, he needs to be put down.

[azoomm]

I agree with the notion for general population. Why should they get special treatment because they were a monster against a child? Maybe, just maybe, if they knew they wouldn't get special treatment they wouldn't do it in the first place. There are some things that are worse than death :wink:

[nhgunnut]

It is interesting, that despite all the attempts there has never been a study that demonstrates measureable reform of pedophiles. Despite in many case apparent motivation on the part of the pedophile. I believe after a arrest pedophiles should be offered voluntary euthanasia. Not sentenced to it but offered it as a humane option. In the case of violent pedophiles summary execution is appropriate

[2up]

I agree that if he created the porn, was a party to it, the death penalty would be a great option IF it weren't for the fact, as we all know, he'll just be on death row for eleventybillion years appealing his sentence instead of being in general population for that time.

If he didn't create it, then a lifetime of general population imprisonment is just fine by me. But for sure no special treatment.

[MikeSP1]

Murder is punishable by death. Is rape also punishable by death (legitimate question)? If so, then this crime is also punishable by death. Crimes against full grown adults that are punishable by death, should very well be equally punishable (if not more harshly) when committed against children. It is rape, just because the victim isn't old enough to understand it doesn't change the definition.

[RACER X]

It's unclear: He was in possession of the material, or did he actually produce it himself? If the former, then jail. If the latter, then the death penalty is applicable. There are far too many credible professionals who believe that paedophiles are essentially incurable and if one has graduated to actually performing the atrocious acts himself, he needs to be put down.

so it's more OK to watch? fuk that.......10 500gb of child porn..........intercourse, beastiality.....infants........fry him!

[fasternyou929]

It's unclear: He was in possession of the material, or did he actually produce it himself? If the former, then jail. If the latter, then the death penalty is applicable. There are far too many credible professionals who believe that paedophiles are essentially incurable and if one has graduated to actually performing the atrocious acts himself, he needs to be put down. Exactly what I was thinking. Being in possession means he's not right in the head and needs to be treated as such. If he produced any of it, it means he's a violent criminal and needs to be treated as such.

Murder is punishable by death. Is rape also punishable by death (legitimate question)? If so, then this crime is also punishable by death. Crimes against full grown adults that are punishable by death, should very well be equally punishable (if not more harshly) when committed against children. It is rape, just because the victim isn't old enough to understand it doesn't change the definition.

No, rape is not punishable by death. Pre-meditated murder is nearly the only crime punishable by death. Treason is also, although it isn't enforced... but that's a whole different discussion.

[fasternyou929]

so it's more OK to watch? fuk that.......10 500gb of child porn..........intercourse, beastiality.....infants........fry him!

You've already proven you don't know how to differentiate between levels of crime.

You're the same person that said a person doing a burnout with a motorcycle in a hallway of a hotel was the same as the guy shooting at my wife and I while riding our motorcycle down the highway.

[2up]

so it's more OK to watch? fuk that.......10 500gb of child porn..........intercourse, beastiality.....infants........fry him!

To use your words, YES, it is MORE OK to view naked pics of infants/children than to molest them. Does that make it OK in general? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! But would you punish a person who watches a video of someone being raped/killed the same as you would the person who rapes/kills?? Or how about a person who THINKS about killing others, but never acts on it? Should they be killed?

Don't get me wrong here, I am in no way defending anyone who views child pornography!!! IN NO WAY!! There is something extremely fucked up in their head without a doubt. But it is NOT the same as molesting a child. Disgusting, bad, fucked up, horrible, yes. The same as molestation, no.

[RACER X]

To use your words, YES, it is MORE OK to view naked pics of infants/children than to molest them. Does that make it OK in general? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! But would you punish a person who watches a video of someone being raped/killed the same as you would the person who rapes/kills?? Or how about a person who THINKS about killing others, but never acts on it? Should they be killed?

.

a video or 3 or 10 500gb worth? diff. yes or no?

[MikeSP1]

No, rape is not punishable by death. Pre-meditated murder is nearly the only crime punishable by death. Treason is also, although it isn't enforced... but that's a whole different discussion.

So capital punishment really isn't an option, and with the number of people on earth, neither is exile. So we toss him in jail and let him sit until he starts rotting. Seems to be about the only thing to do because rehab is probably not gonna help this guy. 5Tb of porn and the cops think he committed crimes against children every 2 days.

[fasternyou929]

a video or 3 or 10 500gb worth? diff. yes or no?

Of course, life in prison shouldn't be an option for 3. For 5TB it's being considered, isn't it?

[2up]

a video or 3 or 10 500gb worth? diff. yes or no?

Quantity does not equal molestation. :idk: I will say that IMO, someone with that much of a desire for child porn likely has acted on his fantasies (just writing that makes me want to puke) but I don't know that for a fact. I don't think people should be killed for having sick thoughts they don't act on. Would I cry or protest if he were killed, NOPE. Again, he should not be out on the streets, but executed, I couldn't say yes to if its "just" viewing this stuff. (Sick fucking bastard that he is.)

[RACER X]

I couldn't say yes to if its "just" viewing this stuff. (Sick fucking bastard that he is.)
I could, very easily.

[2up]

I could, very easily.

So would you also kill the person who viewed this number of snuff films? Or of videos showing real rapes of adults occurring?

[RACER X]

So would you also kill the person who viewed this number of snuff films? Or of videos showing real rapes of adults occurring?


are there vids of people murdering other people? like on the movies?

rape of adults........if they did it w/ intent on pleasuring themselves......and it was true rape vs "made up" prolly

but kids, infants.......fry him.

[Papa_Complex]

I agree that if he created the porn, was a party to it, the death penalty would be a great option IF it weren't for the fact, as we all know, he'll just be on death row for eleventybillion years appealing his sentence instead of being in general population for that time.

If he didn't create it, then a lifetime of general population imprisonment is just fine by me. But for sure no special treatment.

And a placement in general population would be tantamount to torture, or a death sentence, no? I don't agree with the idea of using effective death sentences, simply because a real one isn't going to give an 'ideal' end result. To my mind the death penalty isn't for retribution, it's to protect potential future victims and to act as deterrent. Giving the victims and their families a little retribution along with their justice is a by-product, not the goal.

If it was to act as retribution, then just convert Chase Field to Thunderdome, and have done with it.

[Papa_Complex]

so it's more OK to watch? fuk that.......10 500gb of child porn..........intercourse, beastiality.....infants........fry him!

No, it isn't, but it's a different crime.

[Papa_Complex]

You've already proven you don't know how to differentiate between levels of crime.

You're the same person that said a person doing a burnout with a motorcycle in a hallway of a hotel was the same as the guy shooting at my wife and I while riding our motorcycle down the highway.

Stealing audio cables should also get the death penalty, no?

[fasternyou929]

Stealing audio cables should also get the death penalty, no?

:lol: Absolutely! It's the same as stealing cars and government intel. Theft is theft!

[RACER X]

Stealing audio cables should also get the death penalty, no?

sure why not. :panic:

[Homeslice]

Racer X should be a judge in Iran :lmao:

[Cutty72]

I think that the Death Penalty is a very outdated form of punishment that has become prohibitively expensive and no longer effective.

This guy? Hell no, think of what he's going to have to face in general prison population for the rest of his life! Death penalty would be getting off easy.

How is the Death penalty overly expensive?
It's a one time shot! I don't know how much it costs to kill someone in that manner, but I heard that each prisioner costs the state ~$36,000 a year.
Take that times life in prison and it's a lot of cash.

Personally, I say bring back the firing squad for the death penalty. Ammo is pretty cheap comparitavely.

[Particle Man]

Death is too good for him. Chop his balls off and then throw him into the general population in prison and make sure everyone knows what he did.

The end.

[Papa_Complex]

How is the Death penalty overly expensive?
It's a one time shot! I don't know how much it costs to kill someone in that manner, but I heard that each prisioner costs the state ~$36,000 a year.
Take that times life in prison and it's a lot of cash.

Personally, I say bring back the firing squad for the death penalty. Ammo is pretty cheap comparitavely.

Trial costs + appeal costs + mandatory appeal costs + housing costs while awaiting appeal...... It isn't unheard of for someone to sit on death row for 20+ years.

[Cutty72]

Trial costs + appeal costs + mandatory appeal costs + housing costs while awaiting appeal...... It isn't unheard of for someone to sit on death row for 20+ years.

they do all that shit with a life sentance too...

[Papa_Complex]

they do all that shit with a life sentance too...

I don't think that most States have a mandatory appeal process for life sentences. They do for the death penalty though. The point is that it isn't a "one shot deal" as you stated, it's a long and drawn out process.

[Cutty72]

I don't think that most States have a mandatory appeal process for life sentences. They do for the death penalty though. The point is that it isn't a "one shot deal" as you stated, it's a long and drawn out process.

yes, either way it's expensive. crazy the criminals get treated better than many poverty level people.

If i lived on the street i'd probably commit a crime just to get food, shelter, and cloths.

[Papa_Complex]

yes, either way it's expensive. crazy the criminals get treated better than many poverty level people.

If i lived on the street i'd probably commit a crime just to get food, shelter, and cloths.

It happens. Every day.

[Amorok]

Kill him. Kill him slow and painful, and make sure he cries. Throw that Levinson moron in there too, what a quack. I'll give you prevention, impale the guy on live TV, make the other sickos think twice.

[azoomm]

So, possession defines intent?

[askmrjesus]

It is interesting, that despite all the attempts there has never been a study that demonstrates measureable reform of pedophiles. Despite in many case apparent motivation on the part of the pedophile. I believe after a arrest pedophiles should be offered voluntary euthanasia. Not sentenced to it but offered it as a humane option. In the case of violent pedophiles summary execution is appropriate

I think the reason for no record of mesurable reform for pedophiles, is that there isn't any reform for it. Pedophiles just are what they are. Pedophiles are attracted to children, in the same way heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, and homsexuals are attracted to the same sex. There's no "fixing" that shit. Maybe it's a chemical imbalance, or genetics or whatever, we just don't know yet.

I like your idea of voluntary euthanasia for practicing pedophiles, all of whom I would consider violent.

Now here's an idea everybody is going to hate, but stick with me, it kind of makes sense.

If there are pedophiles that can be satisfied just by looking at child porn, we should give them some. Establish an "approved" database of existing child porn, (photochop the faces so nobody has to see themselves later in life), and make it an automatic life sentence for anyone in possesion of images that are not in the database.

Let's face it, in the case of existing images, the damage is already done. Those kids are never getting their 15 minutes back.

The goal here, is to prevent further abuse of children. If a pedophile can "sign up" for this database legally, he has no reason or excuse to try and make his own porn, plus, we get to keep tabs on the subscribers.

Ok, let the flaming begin...

JC

[Papa_Complex]

I'm not a fan of continuing the victimization of those already victimized. Then there is the question, "How long before someone opens that database, so that they can be watched and prosecuted?" Patriot act, and all of that. If there exists a way of tracking such people, then it'll be used.

I prefer that we depend on people not acting upon their baser drives and, if they do, prosecuting them. A little willpower should permit them to avoid acting outside the bounds of polite society. After all if I can avoid taking an axe to the fucktard in the next cube, then anyone else should be able to control their drives.

[PhiSig1071]

How is the Death penalty overly expensive?
It's a one time shot! I don't know how much it costs to kill someone in that manner, but I heard that each prisioner costs the state ~$36,000 a year.
Take that times life in prison and it's a lot of cash.

Personally, I say bring back the firing squad for the death penalty. Ammo is pretty cheap comparitavely.


It's not the cost of the actual execution, which is surprisingly expensive, it's other factors. Click here, I didn't want to hijack this thread:

http://www.twowheelfix.com/showthread.php?p=149397#post149397

[FT BSTRD]

The mere caustic nature if this type of material requires that not only those who commit crimes against children in creating that material are dealt with most harshly but those who traffic in the product of that abuse as well.

This individual had was was the equivalent to 400 metric tons of crack cocaine in his possession.

He is the Tony Montana of child porn.


I believe that we have made capital punishment too comfortable and too private. Most of the deterrent contained in capital punishment was the public spectacle that the execution became.

People brought their children to the hangings so that their children could see the end result of a life of crime and murder.

Now, no one gets to see what happens.

[askmrjesus]

I'm not a fan of continuing the victimization of those already victimized. Then there is the question, "How long before someone opens that database, so that they can be watched and prosecuted?" Patriot act, and all of that. If there exists a way of tracking such people, then it'll be used.

I'm not a fan of continuing the victimization either, but then, it's not like the victims will ever have access to the data base anyway. As for tracking them, in the case of pedophiles, I'm not sure I have a problem with that, as we track sex offenders already.



I prefer that we depend on people not acting upon their baser drives and, if they do, prosecuting them. A little willpower should permit them to avoid acting outside the bounds of polite society. After all if I can avoid taking an axe to the fucktard in the next cube, then anyone else should be able to control their drives.

That would be nice, but we can't depend on them, and that's the problem. Prosecuting them after the fact is great for justice and retribution, but that doesn't undo the damage caused to the kids.

JC

[PhiSig1071]

Yeah, but public executions are considered cruel and unusual punishment.

[Papa_Complex]

I'm not a fan of continuing the victimization either, but then, it's not like the victims will ever have access to the data base anyway. As for tracking them, in the case of pedophiles, I'm not sure I have a problem with that, as we track sex offenders already.

Perhaps the victims will never have access to such a database. Perhaps they would, with sufficient palm grease.

There's another issue though, which I tried to hint at in my response. Your idea would be to stop new victimizations, but how many databases haven't been abused at one time or another? If the government decides to start tracking people in order to prosecute them, through entrapment or other means because their names are in the access database for this 'library' you suggest, then their privacy is being no less violated for something that they haven't done.

That would be nice, but we can't depend on them, and that's the problem. Prosecuting them after the fact is great for justice and retribution, but that doesn't undo the damage caused to the kids.

JC

The only ways that we can avoid damage to the children would be Minority Report or Thought Police. As odious as it is, I don't believe in charging anyone with a crime that they have not yet committed.

[SoFlaSV]

I said yes, but with one stipulation.

He must be put unsupervised into the general population and have it know why he's there. At least he will suffer horrifically before he dies.

[2up]

JC, I won't flame you, but I also don't agree with your database idea either. Why should they be allowed to indulge themselves? I don't believe that pedophiles are attracted to children in the same manner heteros are attracted to members of the opposite sex and homosexuals to members of the same sex. I won't ever buy that argument.

There is a school of thought that some people attracted to child porn and some pedophiles are "sex addicts" and they are simply taking their addiction to another level. In other words, once the high of adult sex, then say, S&M and B&D, and then voyeurism and exhibitionism, is not as great as it used to be, they move on to a new and more taboo form of drug to get their high. I'm not saying I believe it, I am saying there are those who do believe it. Either way, IMO, too fucking bad, its not OK.

[fnfalman]

Obviously this son of a bitch is a pervert. BUT, BUT, did he actually touch any children or he's just jerked off to these photos?

If he were to touch these kids or some of them then kill the fucker. If not then just imprison his ass and let him be the "boy".

[Papa_Complex]

JC, I won't flame you, but I also don't agree with your database idea either. Why should they be allowed to indulge themselves? I don't believe that pedophiles are attracted to children in the same manner heteros are attracted to members of the opposite sex and homosexuals to members of the same sex. I won't ever buy that argument.

There is a school of thought that some people attracted to child porn and some pedophiles are "sex addicts" and they are simply taking their addiction to another level. In other words, once the high of adult sex, then say, S&M and B&D, and then voyeurism and exhibitionism, is not as great as it used to be, they move on to a new and more taboo form of drug to get their high. I'm not saying I believe it, I am saying there are those who do believe it. Either way, IMO, too fucking bad, its not OK.

It's not quite like that. There is a fair amount of data to indicate that paedophiles were, themselves, overwhelmingly victims of sexual assault as children also. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Their first sexual experience is as a child, with an adult. That seems to form their opinions of sex, whether consciously or unconsciously.

It generally doesn't seem to be the old "forbidden fruit" thing with paedophiles. They've thought that such relationships were 'normal' for most of their lives. If the cycle was stopped in as little as one generation, then the problem would almost be solved. There may be others for which it is a genetic predisposition who would restart the cycle, but think of all of those children who would never grow up as damaged goods.

*EDIT* So all of you who cheer some 14 year old kid who got to do his hot, 30 year old teacher remember that next time.

[VatorMan]

Bring back Lobotomies !!!:rockwoot::rockwoot:

[Mr Lefty]

To use your words, YES, it is MORE OK to view naked pics of infants/children than to molest them. Does that make it OK in general? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! But would you punish a person who watches a video of someone being raped/killed the same as you would the person who rapes/kills?? Or how about a person who THINKS about killing others, but never acts on it? Should they be killed?

Don't get me wrong here, I am in no way defending anyone who views child pornography!!! IN NO WAY!! There is something extremely fucked up in their head without a doubt. But it is NOT the same as molesting a child. Disgusting, bad, fucked up, horrible, yes. The same as molestation, no.

Quantity does not equal molestation. :idk: I will say that IMO, someone with that much of a desire for child porn likely has acted on his fantasies (just writing that makes me want to puke) but I don't know that for a fact. I don't think people should be killed for having sick thoughts they don't act on. Would I cry or protest if he were killed, NOPE. Again, he should not be out on the streets, but executed, I couldn't say yes to if its "just" viewing this stuff. (Sick fucking bastard that he is.)

So would you also kill the person who viewed this number of snuff films? Or of videos showing real rapes of adults occurring?

So, possession defines intent?

THAK YOU you've taken the words right out of my mouth

I think the reason for no record of mesurable reform for pedophiles, is that there isn't any reform for it. Pedophiles just are what they are. Pedophiles are attracted to children, in the same way heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, and homsexuals are attracted to the same sex. There's no "fixing" that shit. Maybe it's a chemical imbalance, or genetics or whatever, we just don't know yet.

I like your idea of voluntary euthanasia for practicing pedophiles, all of whom I would consider violent.

Now here's an idea everybody is going to hate, but stick with me, it kind of makes sense.

If there are pedophiles that can be satisfied just by looking at child porn, we should give them some. Establish an "approved" database of existing child porn, (photochop the faces so nobody has to see themselves later in life), and make it an automatic life sentence for anyone in possesion of images that are not in the database.

Let's face it, in the case of existing images, the damage is already done. Those kids are never getting their 15 minutes back.

The goal here, is to prevent further abuse of children. If a pedophile can "sign up" for this database legally, he has no reason or excuse to try and make his own porn, plus, we get to keep tabs on the subscribers.

Ok, let the flaming begin...

JC

I can see what you mean... it would never fly because as it sits America is to narrow minded to allow gays be married because it's wrong... there's no way they're gonna view a pedophile as a person, because it's completely socially unacceptable.

I'm not defending the guy... but I look at is as you do, his genetic make up to be pre disposed to liking children... no amount of treatment is going to fix that. he's not "sick" he just has a socially unacceptable attraction. Sick implies something is wrong that could be fixed... I don't think this could... same with homosexuality... :idk:

[anthonyk]

Quantity does not equal molestation. :idk: I will say that IMO, someone with that much of a desire for child porn likely has acted on his fantasies (just writing that makes me want to puke) but I don't know that for a fact. I don't think people should be killed for having sick thoughts they don't act on.

Would anyone make child porn if nobody else created the demand for it? (Unfortunately, there probably would still be some.) In my mind this guy is supporting the molestation of children, and that ain't okay. He may as well have done it himself, in my opinion.

Not acting on his thoughts would be staying in his own head, or writing fiction, or something like that. At the moment he involved real kids (in whatever form), he just jumped in with both feet.

Maybe being a new dad makes me extra sensitive to it, but infants are so fucking helpless that I don't have much sympathy for this guy.

[Adeptus_Minor]

This guy? Hell no, think of what he's going to have to face in general prison population for the rest of his life! Death penalty would be getting off easy.

:lol:
You have to wonder if the guards don't announce "Pedophile walkin'!" when they're bringing them in.
:lol:

[Mr Lefty]

Would anyone make child porn if nobody else created the demand for it? (Unfortunately, there probably would still be some.) In my mind this guy is supporting the molestation of children, and that ain't okay. He may as well have done it himself, in my opinion.

Not acting on his thoughts would be staying in his own head, or writing fiction, or something like that. At the moment he involved real kids (in whatever form), he just jumped in with both feet.

Maybe being a new dad makes me extra sensitive to it, but infants are so fucking helpless that I don't have much sympathy for this guy.

so have you watched jack ass? how about a stunt video where they stunt on public streets? how about watched a pirated movie? if so you should be fined just as much as those ACTUALLY doing the crime, as you are supporting it.

so does that mean that I'm credited for everything I've watched, considering I am now accountable for it? in that case I've fucked about 300 pornstars, stunted on countless roads, broken my neck numerous times, eaten some fuck'n nasty shit... literally (damn chain e-mails), stolen a couple cars, assasinated a couple figure heads, shat on windows, buttered floors, had tantrums about leaving britney alone, I've also won the motogp world championship 20 times, died because of an High speed off at Suzkuka (RIP Kato) bailed off at 150+ when my bike burst into flames...

ect...

watch'n a video of someone doing something is not the same as doing it yourself.

[askmrjesus]

JC, I won't flame you, but I also don't agree with your database idea either. Why should they be allowed to indulge themselves? I don't believe that pedophiles are attracted to children in the same manner heteros are attracted to members of the opposite sex and homosexuals to members of the same sex. I won't ever buy that argument.

Ok, fair enough, but what are you basing your aversion to my argument on? There is scientific data that suggests that pedophiles have definable differences in brain structure, found in MRI studies, and that they have "one or more neurological characteristics present at birth that cause or increase the likelihood of being pedophilic" (Wiki). I think that the problem with this topic, is that we are so socially disgusted by pedophiles (understandably, especially if you are a parent) that we are unwilling to even try to figure out why they do what they do. It's much easier to yell "FRY THEM!" but that doesn't solve the problem.


There is a school of thought that some people attracted to child porn and some pedophiles are "sex addicts" and they are simply taking their addiction to another level. In other words, once the high of adult sex, then say, S&M and B&D, and then voyeurism and exhibitionism, is not as great as it used to be, they move on to a new and more taboo form of drug to get their high. I'm not saying I believe it, I am saying there are those who do believe it. Either way, IMO, too fucking bad, its not OK.

True, there are a lot of theories. I read one study that said pedophiles are likely to be short, introverted, left handed and have a history of being dropped on thier heads (no, I'm not making that up). At the end of the day though, I don't think sex addicts decide to start chasing after children because they've tried everything else.

It's not quite like that. There is a fair amount of data to indicate that paedophiles were, themselves, overwhelmingly victims of sexual assault as children also. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Their first sexual experience is as a child, with an adult. That seems to form their opinions of sex, whether consciously or unconsciously.

It generally doesn't seem to be the old "forbidden fruit" thing with paedophiles. They've thought that such relationships were 'normal' for most of their lives. If the cycle was stopped in as little as one generation, then the problem would almost be solved. There may be others for which it is a genetic predisposition who would restart the cycle, but think of all of those children who would never grow up as damaged goods.


From what I've read, that theory has lost its luster among researchers. As it turns out, the overwhelming majority of pedophiles, were not molested as children. Then again, conflicting studies are nothing new.

JC

[2up]

It's not quite like that. There is a fair amount of data to indicate that paedophiles were, themselves, overwhelmingly victims of sexual assault as children also. It's the gift that keeps on giving. Their first sexual experience is as a child, with an adult. That seems to form their opinions of sex, whether consciously or unconsciously.

It generally doesn't seem to be the old "forbidden fruit" thing with paedophiles. They've thought that such relationships were 'normal' for most of their lives. If the cycle was stopped in as little as one generation, then the problem would almost be solved. There may be others for which it is a genetic predisposition who would restart the cycle, but think of all of those children who would never grow up as damaged goods.

*EDIT* So all of you who cheer some 14 year old kid who got to do his hot, 30 year old teacher remember that next time.

While I know first hand that molestation can create a distorted view of sex and sexuallity, I also, and more completely believe, that the choice to perpetuate the cycle is just that. And I don't believe that all, or even many, pedophiles view this type of sexual relationship as normal. (The exception being whatever groups there are that DO in fact advertise their beliefs that this is normal and healthy. Rather, for those who don't molest due to the forbidden fruit aspect, (and I've actually done pretty extensive research on sexual addiction which is how I came to understand that a sex addict's behavior can escalate in this manner) I think the lure is more of a control issue. They were controlled in this manner, they didn't have the emotional maturity to deal with it, their emotional growth was stunted by the event(s) so they seek some sort of control themselves.

I unfortunately know too many people who were molested, and not one of them views the behavior as normal. Luckily, as it were, all of the molestation victims I know have chosen either sexual anorexia, promiscuity, or the good old stand by's of drugs/alcohol.

I do completely agree though that the "oh lucky him" bullshit that gets thrown out when the 30 year old good looking teacher molests her student is sickening and dangerous.

[2up]

Ok, fair enough, but what are you basing your aversion to my argument on? There is scientific data that suggests that pedophiles have definable differences in brain structure, found in MRI studies, and that they have "one or more neurological characteristics present at birth that cause or increase the likelihood of being pedophilic" (Wiki). I think that the problem with this topic, is that we are so socially disgusted by pedophiles (understandably, especially if you are a parent) that we are unwilling to even try to figure out why they do what they do. It's much easier to yell "FRY THEM!" but that doesn't solve the problem.

Couldn't a similar argument be made for alcoholics? That they are genetically predisposed to alcoholism, so therefore, they will be alcoholics? Is there not still a choice to be made in this equation? The choice to override what may be, for lack of a better way to put it, a more base instinct to act on an unhealthy desire?


True, there are a lot of theories. I read one study that said pedophiles are likely to be short, introverted, left handed and have a history of being dropped on thier heads (no, I'm not making that up). At the end of the day though, I don't think sex addicts decide to start chasing after children because they've tried everything else.

This isn't a theory based on scientific studies. This comes directly from sex addicts whose next drug of choice became sex with children. The ultimate taboo. Not all sex addicts go this route of course. Again, this is not to say all sex addicts are pedophiles or that all pedophiles are sex addicts.

[BobTheBiker]

I think that the Death Penalty is a very outdated form of punishment that has become prohibitively expensive and no longer effective.

This guy? Hell no, think of what he's going to have to face in general prison population for the rest of his life! Death penalty would be getting off easy.
I disagree to an extent. the death penalty is still very effective, its the manner in which it is used that makes the difference. take the person to be executed into times square, set up a permanent gallows deal of some sort, and have regular public hangings mid day of offenders. make examples of them rather than quietly poison them in a room where nobody sees.


in regards to this sick bastard, certainly hang him.

[FT BSTRD]

Sexual images for some require an ever escalating level of intensity to reach arousal. Missionary no longer does it, but doggie style does. Vaginal no longer does it but anal does. Sexual acts between consenting adults no longer does it, but staged rape scenes do. For many people who view child pornography, it began as viewing regular porn. The problem was that at some point in time it took an odd bent. Maybe it was an 18 year old girl in a school girl outfit who looked 12.

The problem is that at some point in time, the viewer hopes to act out what is seen in real life. I believe you can view the ABC pedophile gotcha show as a prime example. Maybe these guys had acted it out before. Maybe this was their first attempt. Regardless, they are moving from simply viewing the material to acting it out.

The secondary problem is that the demand drives supply. If the viewer needs an ever increasing variety of images in order to be aroused, there must be an increasing supply. This requires an increasing number of acts of abuse to be visited upon children to provide that supply.

There is a profit motive to child porn just like there is with adult porn. The profit is actually higher per image because it is so difficult to come buy. Meth vs. heroin.

In order to fill the number of hard drives he did, this guy would have had to spend an inordinate amount of time and money collecting these images. The demand he is feeding has allowed literally thousands of children to be harmed. These harmed children have the potential to go on to harm thousands of other children and adults. How many rapists were raped as children? How many felons were harmed as children resulting in emotional disburbance and criminal behavior?

If there were an individual who had paid to have someone murdered, we would sentence that person as though they had committed the crime. If someone paid to have someone raped and filmed, they would be sentenced for rape as well. In this case, this guy paid to have a child molested. The sentence for molestation should be equal for the observer of this type of pornography as well as those who actually perform the act themselves.


Unfortunately, that sentence isn't death.

in regards to this sick bastard, certainly hang him.


By his dick.

[askmrjesus]

Couldn't a similar argument be made for alcoholics? That they are genetically predisposed to alcoholism, so therefore, they will be alcoholics? Is there not still a choice to be made in this equation? The choice to override what may be, for lack of a better way to put it, a more base instinct to act on an unhealthy desire?

Yes, there is most definitly a choice to be made, I'm not arguing that at all. The point I was trying to make with the "approved database theory" is that if supplying an outlet to pedophiles who realize that they have an incurable problem would help them control their urges, it might cut down on the number of children abused, which of course, is the ultimate goal. I'm just trying to come up with a way to help them make the right choice. It isn't pretty, but if I thought it would work, I'd give it a try.

JC

[askmrjesus]

I disagree to an extent. the death penalty is still very effective, its the manner in which it is used that makes the difference. take the person to be executed into times square, set up a permanent gallows deal of some sort, and have regular public hangings mid day of offenders. make examples of them rather than quietly poison them in a room where nobody sees.


We should start a new thread for this, but I'll disagree with you here anyway.

The death penalty has only proven to be an effective deterrent on the people who have suffered it. Saddam Hussein had a nice public hanging, but I don't see any other homicidal dictators throwing in the towel because of it.:idk:

JC

[Porkchop]

There is a school of thought that some people attracted to child porn and some pedophiles are "sex addicts" and they are simply taking their addiction to another level. In other words, once the high of adult sex, then say, S&M and B&D, and then voyeurism and exhibitionism, is not as great as it used to be, they move on to a new and more taboo form of drug to get their high.

BINGO the basic principles of addiction....

While I know first hand that molestation can create a distorted view of sex and sexuallity,

I unfortunately know too many people who were molested, and not one of them views the behavior as normal. Luckily, as it were, all of the molestation victims I know have chosen either sexual anorexia, promiscuity, or the good old stand by's of drugs/alcohol.

2up... would you be in the psychology field? Because your pretty textbook savvy...

But yes, I know 2 girls that were and neither think this type of activity is normal. One is a self proclaimed "sex addict" though, but is not promiscuous about it.

[2up]

BINGO the basic principles of addiction....



2up... would you be in the psychology field? Because your pretty textbook savvy...

But yes, I know 2 girls that were and neither think this type of activity is normal. One is a self proclaimed "sex addict" though, but is not promiscuous about it.

I'm not a psychologist I just play one on the internet. :lol:

Actually, while I have studied a decent amount of psychology, most of my knowledge comes from first hand experience (having been molested), having been a coke addict (in recovery for 21+ years), know (off the top of my head) 10 people (male and female) who have been molested, am the daughter of a recovering alcoholic, have known and been friends with countless addicts and remained friends with those who have chosen recovery, and have done extensive research about addiction and have come to find out that porn/sex is to addiction in this day and age, what coke was to the 80's.

I have a great interest in psychology but am too passionate (in the "I don't have enough patience to sit and listen to someone tell me for years on end how unhappy they are and watch them not change it without smacking them" way) to be a counselor. :lol:

[Porkchop]

Actually, while I have studied a decent amount of psychology, most of my knowledge comes from first hand experience (having been molested), having been a coke addict (in recovery for 21+ years), know (off the top of my head) 10 people (male and female) who have been molested, am the daughter of a recovering alcoholic, have known and been friends with countless addicts and remained friends with those who have chosen recovery, and have done extensive research about addiction and have come to find out that porn/sex is to addiction in this day and age, what coke was to the 80's.

Would you say its compounding?

My co-worker's 3 years was on thursday. From both alcohol and drugs.

[Papa_Complex]

I'm not a psychologist I just play one on the internet. :lol:

Actually, while I have studied a decent amount of psychology, most of my knowledge comes from first hand experience (having been molested), having been a coke addict (in recovery for 21+ years), know (off the top of my head) 10 people (male and female) who have been molested, am the daughter of a recovering alcoholic, have known and been friends with countless addicts and remained friends with those who have chosen recovery, and have done extensive research about addiction and have come to find out that porn/sex is to addiction in this day and age, what coke was to the 80's.

I have a great interest in psychology but am too passionate (in the "I don't have enough patience to sit and listen to someone tell me for years on end how unhappy they are and watch them not change it without smacking them" way) to be a counselor. :lol:

I'm not one either, just dated a triple (!) major for five years and was used interchangeably as a study partner/test subject :lol: After that experience, I would say that actually studying psych probably breaks more people than anything else. Oddly enough I actually saw more abnormal psych in practise than ever did my poor, sheltered little rich girl.

Addiction is addiction. Over the years I've come to believe that EVERYONE is an addict. It's just that some haven't been introduced to their addiction yet.

[Porkchop]

Addiction is addiction. Over the years I've come to believe that EVERYONE is an addict. It's just that some haven't been introduced to their addiction yet.

YES... its called motorcycles!!!!!

[z06boy]

Voted yes

[anthonyk]

so have you watched jack ass? how about a stunt video where they stunt on public streets? how about watched a pirated movie? if so you should be fined just as much as those ACTUALLY doing the crime, as you are supporting it.



I never claimed that this was some universal truth that must be applied equally across all situations. In this situation, I think both the crime itself and supporting/enabling/providing-demand-for that crime are heinous enough to warrant the same severe punishment. Same as FT BSTRD said about paying to have someone raped or murdered.

In a completely black and white world, I guess I would have to support going after people who watched Jackass or stunting, but the truth is I don't really care about people supporting stupid misdemeanors where no innocent folks are getting hurt. I'm totally comfortable having that double-standard.

[smileyman]

Addiction is addiction. Over the years I've come to believe that EVERYONE is an addict. It's just that some haven't been introduced to their addiction yet.

I agree. Whatever triggers the addiction can be just as diverse as the actual addictions themselves although the root behaviors for these mechanisms are basically the same.

Bad stimulus that overwhelms ones ability to cope causes them to fall back into one of there addictions as sanctuary. Alcohol, Anorexia, manic depressive, paranoid Schiz, drugs, sex addiction, ect.

I feel like anyone suffering from addiction will act out that addiction at some point when the factors that lead them to it put enough pressure on them. They either self destruct or lash out and destroy others.

[2up]

I agree. Whatever triggers the addiction can be just as diverse as the actual addictions themselves although the root behaviors for these mechanisms are basically the same.

Bad stimulus that overwhelms ones ability to cope causes them to fall back into one of there addictions as sanctuary. Alcohol, Anorexia, manic depressive, paranoid Schiz, drugs, sex addiction, ect.

I feel like anyone suffering from addiction will act out that addiction at some point when the factors that lead them to it put enough pressure on them. They either self destruct or lash out and destroy others.

Bi-polarity and schizophrenia are mental illnesses, not addictions. While there may be some pre-disposition to addictive behaviours, biologically speaking, the behaviours themselves are learned as coping mechanisms. (Which is a misnomer, IMO 'cause addicts aren't actually coping with anything.) Mental illnesses have definitive biological roots and are not learned.

[Papa_Complex]

That's not necessarily true either. Things like schizophrenia, that are potentially caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, have demonstrable biological causes. Not all, or even most mental illness can be demonstrated to have biological causes. I would say that the opposite is actually true.