FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness study,

[RACER X]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Food for thought to all you who carry small caliber side arms or have women who carry small caliber handguns.

[smileyman]

Very interesting stuff! Thanks for posting...

[Papa_Complex]

I agree, very interesting. I've only glanced through it so far, but it sounds like the information would support the use of a high velocity pistol round like that fired by the FN Five-seveN (5.7mm bottle-necked cartridge), if it was a PSP variant. That tends to go against the "common wisdom."

[fnfalman]

The only problem with this study and this type of study is that it deals with after the facts. Yeah, the doctors cut up the bodies and see the wounds, but it doesn't take into the psychological aspect of the wounded.

We know that a bullet in the bullet will kill...eventually. What we can't predict is if the wounded will drop dead right then and there or keep on fighting for the next several minutes.

[Amorok]

Last line - "Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet." See, 9mm sucks.

[Rider]

The only problem with this study and this type of study is that it deals with after the facts. Yeah, the doctors cut up the bodies and see the wounds, but it doesn't take into the psychological aspect of the wounded.

We know that a bullet in the bullet will kill...eventually. What we can't predict is if the wounded will drop dead right then and there or keep on fighting for the next several minutes.

The hydrostatic shock of a .44 magnum is enough to keep someone down. Compared to a .40 S&W, the .44 magnum has around 3 times the energy, about 1,500ft-lbs. Size matters. :dthumb:

[fnfalman]

The hydrostatic shock of a .44 magnum is enough to keep someone down. Compared to a .40 S&W, the .44 magnum has around 3 times the energy, about 1,500ft-lbs. Size matters. :dthumb:

.44 Magnums don't go fast enough to generate hydrostatic shock. :whistle:

And the hottest .44 Mag load runs around 1200-lbft, which is pretty considerable, but it ain't no magic bullet either.

[Rider]

.44 Magnums don't go fast enough to generate hydrostatic shock. :whistle:

And the hottest .44 Mag load runs around 1200-lbft, which is pretty considerable, but it ain't no magic bullet either.

a 300gr JHP will produce 1500-ftlb. Where does hydrostatic shock begin? :idk: 2000+ FPS?

[OTB]

Dear folks:

It is not just the potential energy (MxV) that causes incapacitiation. It is energy TRANSFERRED / Time. The greater amount of energy transferred to the target over the shortest possible time in the proper target area is what causes the most damage and shock.

If you read the whole article, the whole point is to identify calibers and ammo that CAUSES THE TARGET TO STOP FIGHTING. Please also note that this study is 20 years old. There have been numerous advances in ammo tech that have completely changed the landscape of ammunition effectiveness. (Frangibles, "sawtooth" ammos, ect.)

Some of the new ammos in 32 are more effective than .45 ball.

[Amorok]

Some of the new ammos in 32 are more effective than .45 ball. :falco1::bsflag:

[fnfalman]

a 300gr JHP will produce 1500-ftlb. Where does hydrostatic shock begin? :idk: 2000+ FPS?

Hydrostatic shock probably begins at around 2200FPS at the point of impact.

[the chi]

:falco1::bsflag:


Srysly? You gotta be on crack to even call BS on anything OTB has to say.

Get a grip dude, OTB is like the end all be all of knowledge.:skep:

Newbs...

I gotta agree with him as well. With the new technology and the nasty things they are doing to todays munitions, a smaller round with a nasty surprise can have more impact than yesterdays larger but plainer bullets...

20 years ago they didnt have rounds that would shred through the body upon impact for example...

[fnfalman]

20 years ago they didnt have rounds that would shred through the body upon impact for example...
Sorry, Rae, MagSafe and Glaser Safety Slugs have been available since the 1970s.

[the chi]

Sorry, Rae, MagSafe and Glaser Safety Slugs have been available since the 1970s.

I stand corrected, thank you dear...

[fnfalman]

I stand corrected, thank you dear...

But you are right about handgun ammo technology had improved considerably since. The power is still pissant, but the new rounds do try to maximize the best that they have. The deformations are larger yet the bullets don't shred their jackets and leads like they used to thus they tend to both penetrate AND expand more reliably than before.

And nowadays there's a new class of frangible ammo that functions like regular bullets but shatter upon impacting hard surfaces so that they don't overpenetrate if missed their targets. The problem with the MagSafe and Glasers was that because they break into pieces upon impact, sometimes they don't penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs. Not that I'd want to receive a shot from a MagSafe or Glaser slug.

[the chi]

My uncle is a gun nut, as is my guy, and btw the 2 of them they have some NASTY looking rounds!!

I dont know the tech terms, but I've seen the ones you speak of, as well as the ones that basically "flower" upon impact and keep spinning, like a broadhead arrow but worse. I cant imagine being shot with some of these things, makes me cringe to even think on it.

Rest assured, rednecks are protecting themselves with this kinda stuff, so home invaders should remember that one...my familys whole philosophy is stop ya with one shot, no matter WHAT they shoot ya with! :wink:

[Amorok]

http://www.twowheelfix.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3217&stc=1&d=1229701802

[the chi]

http://www.twowheelfix.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3217&stc=1&d=1229701802

Awww, isnt that cute?! What a neat little poster.

:lol: FYI, my preferred handgun IS the .45, the heft and weight it better for me than a 9mm. I just dont deny that smaller guns can cause stopping damage too, especially with the proper ammo.

[Amorok]

Well, I will say that I've moved to a 40 short and weak for a carry gun when I wear a jacket, so I've actually changed my round as well. Of course, before I introduced the 40 into the lineup my options were between a .45 ACP or a .357 magnum J-frame, so I've had a small round before, but it was still a big caliber just because of the power. I'm sorry, but I've seen what various rounds will do to people, way more than I'd like. If you can shoot a 9mm well and it works for you, by all means stick with what works. But I think something bigger will work better.

[ericr]

Everyone can argue what caliber's better till they're blue in the face and there's no real imperical evidence to possitively support any one caliber being superior except for one....and that's the accurately fired one. If you can hit your target ( I mean area, not person) the caliber you fire most accurately is the best one for you.
And as far as the old .45 vs 9mm...I'll take 18 over 8, I'm as accurate with either and I'll take the extra rounds for insurance because I know I'm not perfect. My peferred caliber now is .40 S&W though.

[OTB]

First, some perspective from someone more learned than I:
http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/stoppingpower.html

For those that believe that only muzzle energy is relevant:
http://www.cruffler.com/BallisticCalculators/BallisticCalculator.shtml

From Sanow and Marshall: Stopping Power, The Definitive Study.

http://www.biblio.com/isbn/9780873646536.html

Sanow and Marshall, in their controversial study of actual shootings, have placed the 60 grain .32 Silvertip on equal par with 230 grain .45 FMJ ball for stopping power. On the face of it, the Marshall/Sanow results seem ridiculous. A .45 caliber hole produced by a 230 grain bullet would appear to be far more effective in stopping power than a puny 60 grain hollow point that may or may not expand to .45 caliber.
Missing from the caliber equation is the jet stream turbulence produced by the configuration of the bullet. A .45 bullet that is streamlined to pass through air with the least resistance may not provide the best stopping power.

The trapped and compressed air within the hollow point bullet along with compressed gelatinous mass produces a hydraulic effect when the bullet strikes soft tissue. If things go right, the bullet cup is mushroomed out and the bullet expands to a larger caliber. The degree of penetration is reduced to the degree the bullet expands. The more expansion one gets, the less penetration one gets.

Regardless of whether the hollow point bullet expands or not, there is still turbulence produced by the cup. This turbulence is absent from the streamlined air foil design of ball ammo.

The hollow point cup creates a jet stream that in flesh or gelatin produces a temporary wound cavity of substantially greater diameter than the bullet. This cavity helps allow for bullet expansion since the pressure of the compressed material in the cup is far greater than is the pressure found outside the cup.

For this reason, hollow point ammo generally expands better in bare ballistic gelatin than it does, if at all, in clothed gelatin. When the cup strikes a less resilient surface than soft tissue, the pressures inside and outside the cup are closer to parity and expansion is limited. This almost seems to me to be the ideal situation. If a perpetrator is lightly clothed, the ammo will expand for maximum stopping power. On the other hand, if the perpetrator is heavily clothed and we are looking for better penetration, the ammo will sacrifice expansion for penetration.

This is why one cannot simply say “X ammo in caliber Y pistol is a superior choice”. For YEARS, the Indiana Highway Patrol kept their antiquated Colt Pythons loaded with 110gr Speer “Flying Ashtray”rounds, long after the rest of the world had switched to hi-cap 9’s. An extremely high percentage of their officer’s shootings required penetration of auto glass or bodywork; the 9’s are woefully inadequate in those situations.

Part of the armourers craft is in matching the right weapon to the most likely job the carrier will encounter. And so the debate rages on……

As far as the Glaser and the Magsafe FNFALMAN is dead on. These rounds were developed for the PRIMARY purpose of preventing overpenetration....stopping power was a secondary consideration. These rounds were (and are) meant for folks living in crowded urban environments , townhouses and apartments where overpenetration or a miss could mean killing your neighbor...same goes for the new "divided" and the sintered frangibles. These rounds had their original devlopement directed by the desire for use by skymarshalls to foil hijackers without downing the plane.


Fact of the matter is, there are a number of forums out there wherethe participants do nothing but argue the relative merits of this or that favorite caliber. The 22 LR has killed more folks in non-military shootings than all other calibers combined. (Not my numbers, folks; from the FBI stats). Doesn't mean I'm gonna use a Hi-Standard as my primary weapon....but if it is all I can get a hold of...shot placement is still king.....

[Amber Lamps]

I don't pretend to be the "gun smiths" you guys are but one thing I do know,I'll gladly have a 100 meter duel with anyone,me with a 9mm and my opponent carrying a 45...

[Amorok]

So carrying .45 Hornady taps or Speer Gold Dots is a waste of money, I should just switch to a .32? Thanks for the info, now I'll save money AND get killed.

[Amber Lamps]

So carrying .45 Hornady taps or Speer Gold Dots is a waste of money, I should just switch to a .32? Thanks for the info, now I'll save money AND get killed.


To be totally honest,as far as home defense goes,I'd rather have a 12 gauge pump!

[Papa_Complex]

I don't pretend to be the "gun smiths" you guys are but one thing I do know,I'll gladly have a 100 meter duel with anyone,me with a 9mm and my opponent carrying a 45...

Maybe if that 9mm was a Marlin Camp 9.....

[Rider]

To be totally honest,as far as home defense goes,I'd rather have a 12 gauge pump!

With a pistol grip. :dthumb:

[Dragonpaco]

we really need to stop arguing about defensive calibers.

[Papa_Complex]

we really need to stop arguing about defensive calibers.

Right. Anyone knows that explosives are the way to go anyway.

[Dragonpaco]

exactly, a slug attached to a bird bomb is the only way to go

[Rider]

Right. Anyone knows that explosives are the way to go anyway.

Everyone should own a Mark 19 grenade launcher. :dthumb:

[OTB]

So carrying .45 Hornady taps or Speer Gold Dots is a waste of money, I should just switch to a .32? Thanks for the info, now I'll save money AND get killed.


That's the problem with only reading part of someone's post.....you miss the important stuff.


Ball ammo is FMJ round nose......it has completely different shooting and wounding characteristics than JHP ammo.

The original point of the post (if you go back to the biginning) is a twenty-year old study on relative effectiveness. There is no doubt that a .45 Silvertip is superior in every way to a .32 Silvertip...that' snot my point..


...not everybody can carry a full size auto or wheelgun; those with small frames, petite hands, or who are flinch prone to large caliber recoil/noise or live in warmer climes (pretty hard to hide that Ruger in your bikini drawers, but easy to put that Seecamp .32 in a small handbag). My point was, that based on relative stopping power, that .32 packed with Gold Dots is an adaquate weapon, unless I know I am going in harm's way, in which case I'll opt for all the firepower I can get my hands on.

Read tho whole post before you catch attitude.

[Papa_Complex]

Everyone should own a Mark 19 grenade launcher. :dthumb:

Claymore perimeter. Take them out on the lawn.

[Amorok]

First of all, who uses FMJ as their primary carry round? I mean, does anybody here carry hardball in the spout? If so, why? And as for ammunition advances, I'm not saying there haven't been any. But lately it seems like smaller rounds are what everyone recommends. Everyone keeps touting tiny slugs and weird chambering (45 GAP, WTF?) and saying that those kinds of things have replaced older rounds, most notably the .45 ACP and the .357 magnum. I can't count how many times I've been told that I'm a dinosaur, that I'm out of touch, that I need to get rid of my outdated rounds and switch to one of the new fads. There's a reason why .25 ACP has gone away and .32 is hard to find unless you order it, while .45 ACP, .357 magnum, .38 and all its variants, and the venerable .44 have been around for so long - they work, and they've proven themselves superior. You don't need to fix something that ain't broke, and that's why those platforms are still popular. As for the 9mm, I'll get to it in a minute.

Going to a smaller round might suit to purpose, but it depends what your purpose is. To use an analogy, a small, hybrid car will still get me where I'm going and use less gas. But if I need to burn a quarter mile, then no matter how gas efficient or cheap a three cylinder Metro is, it isn't going to do the job. You need that big block V8, and no matter how you dress up a little four banger it'll never have the same power and get the job done like the muscle car will. In the car world the saying is "there's no replacement for displacement." Well, with rounds I'm always going to subscribe to "Bigger and hotter is better." You can talk about those little rounds, and some of them are cool, but they aren't going to get as reliable of an effect as the tried and true rounds that have been so useful in the past.
As for the popularity of the 9mm, the reason 9mm is such a big deal boil down to three main points, none of which have anything to do with how effective the round is. They reasons are these:
1) It’s cheap. Fine, and if you want to plink a cheap round I guess, but then why not go with a 22lr? You can practice your form with no recoil and then move up to a real round for carry. And cheap does not help you in ballistics. The round still doesn’t give good knock-down power, and you can die with a full wallet. Plus, the platforms are expensive because of demand.
2) Lower recoil. Again, it’s a round without enough power. 22lr has the least recoil of any round I’ve ever shot and nobody is advocating the ballistic virtues of that gun. Sure, more people have been killed with it but a lot of those statistics have to with people who don’t have access to another weapon, not because of the virtue of the round. A lot of people get shot with them, but there are more of them in circulation. And I’m willing to bet the survival rate is higher with that small of a caliber. Recoil can be adjusted just as much by the platform as the round. I have a Coonan .357 magnum automatic that kicks less than a Beretta 92FS. I’ve done the Pepsi challenge and offered it out, this isn’t just me talking out of my ass. The gun is heavy and soaks up the recoil, also, it’s constructed for that. You can always get a spring kit for your gun and carry a stout round with less felt recoil, but idiots don’t understand that, they’ll just buy a crappy small round then crow about how great it is.
3) Cops use them. 9mm and now 40 S&W are popular because a lot of law enforcement agencies use them. This means that the rounds are produced in huge amounts and every company has an impressive variety of platforms to fire them, because the round is prevalent and they always hope for the LE contract. The problem with this is, cops don’t know shit about shooting. They barely qualify most of the time, and most of them look at their weapon as another piece of equipment, not something associated with a proficiency that needs development. Also, cops have to issue weapons to the standard of their worst shooter. A lot of cops just can’t handle a decent round, so they issue something substandard to give the crappy shots a fighting chance, and all the cops I know carry something other than department issue, usually either a .45 or a .40. One guy I know carries the answer to this issue, but I’ll mention that in a minute.
So what you are trying to sell me on is a cheap, underpowered round that is popular because people who can’t shoot for shit use it. No thanks. The answer to this debate IMO is the 10mm. Good power and hot, big enough to make an impact but still small enough to carry a lot of them. The problem with that is there are only a couple of platforms for it and the rounds are pricey. I’ve written Colt, Kimber, SIG, HK, and pretty much everyone else besides Glock suggesting that they offer a 10mm over the last few years, we’ll see.

As for me throwing hollow points in when you were talking about FMJ, I knew what I was doing, the point you were making was dumb and I didn’t want to point it out that overtly, but since you want to push the issue there you go. It was a stupid point and I was hoping you either weren’t serious or wouldn’t force me to shine any light on it. To use analogy again, in the middle of talking about engine sizes it’s as if you blurted out that a Celica would be faster than my V8 corvette if you put a rocket engine on it. Well yes, Timmy, it might, but that’s asinine and you should stop talking.
As for catching attitude, I did read your whole post, it was long and I didn’t agree with you. I have responded with a long post you probably won’t agree with. Don’t assume I didn’t finish your post, you were just wrong. Sorry Dad, didn’t mean to get uppity, let me grab that belt. You sound like you might be a cop, if not maybe you should think about it, you certainly have the smug and arrogant part down.

[OTB]

Again...I was making general commentary on the ORIGINAL post re relative merits of calibers. The fact of the matter is, I agree with you on 99% of your last post (especially the smug and arrogant parts:whistle:). Me, I'm a big fan of the 44 Special (I have an old Bulldog that is my fav).

That is all.

[the chi]

A- I really need the scratch head smiley here...WHO rec. that someone carry a smaller round? As far as I've been able to tell, we are all just going back and forth regarding merits of each and technology...I havent seen anyone say USE THIS CUZ ITS BETTER...:idk: Ima thinking you might be a lil jumpy on this topic and maybe reading/seeing more than you are sposed too, this is the interwebs, don make it complicated!! :lol:

Personally, if/when I get around to carrying something, it'll be small. Not because I want to, because I would far more prefer at least a .45, but because I am a tiny person and I cant conceivably hide something that large on my person, unless its wintertime. So, if I'm stuck with a smaller gun, Im gonna get the most lethal ammo I can to do the most damage, cuz while I WILL hit you 8 times out of 10, id prefer to not have to shoot someone that many times if 3-4 hits will do it!! *sigh* I wish I was bigger...

[Rider]

A- I really need the scratch head smiley here...WHO rec. that someone carry a smaller round? As far as I've been able to tell, we are all just going back and forth regarding merits of each and technology...I havent seen anyone say USE THIS CUZ ITS BETTER...:idk: Ima thinking you might be a lil jumpy on this topic and maybe reading/seeing more than you are sposed too, this is the interwebs, don make it complicated!! :lol:

Personally, if/when I get around to carrying something, it'll be small. Not because I want to, because I would far more prefer at least a .45, but because I am a tiny person and I cant conceivably hide something that large on my person, unless its wintertime. So, if I'm stuck with a smaller gun, Im gonna get the most lethal ammo I can to do the most damage, cuz while I WILL hit you 8 times out of 10, id prefer to not have to shoot someone that many times if 3-4 hits will do it!! *sigh* I wish I was bigger...

.357 Sig is a great compromise. I'm going to convert my .40 S&W to this caliber. The FBI and CIA use it and there must be a reason.

[Amorok]

...Ima thinking you might be a lil jumpy on this topic and maybe reading/seeing more than you are sposed too,...Mmm, very possible....Personally, if/when I get around to carrying something, it'll be small. Not because I want to, because I would far more prefer at least a .45, but because I am a tiny person and I cant conceivably hide something that large on my person, unless its wintertime.... Honey, I'm 5'6" and 170 at my fattest, and I manage to conceal a full-size HK USP .45 with two 12rnd reloads. It can be done. Remember, you can carry a purse. ...*sigh* I wish I was bigger...Yeah, me too. Not as bad as Ulu does though.

...Me, I'm a big fan of the 44 Special (I have an old Bulldog that is my fav)....Fucking LOVE the Bulldogs, even with the problems people had with them they were cheap and mine was reliable. I'd buy one but I haven't seen one in a while, they got hard to find. Supposedly Charter 2000 is making them again, and have improved them too! The front sight is solid to the gun now, and it's a one peice barrell pinned to the frame, so none of the fooling with the shroud (if yours has one, not all of them did.)
You might have just helped me pick my next gun purchase. Charter Bulldog Pug FTW!

[fnfalman]

Amorok,

You made some very cogent points but at the same time you tout the .45Auto but downplay the 9mm? You also talk about how time had proven this round and that round, lest you forget the 9mm has been introduced before the .45 Auto. Speaking of which the .45Auto has about the same kinetic energy as the 9mm Parabellum - which isn't much. The .45ACP is a pissant round that isn't any more powerful than the 9mm or the .40SW. The only round that distinguishes itself is the 10mm and the factories don't even load them at full bore any more, so now it's just another pissant caliber.

PS OTB's preference for the .44 Special is well founded. It's an entirely serviceable round that has about the same oomph as the standardly accepted defense/combat rounds like the 9mm, .357 SIG, .357 Mag, .40SW, 10mm and .45Auto, .45 Long Colt.

[No Worries]

A long time ago I was taught in the Army that the small 5.56mm caliber of the M16 tumbled, not mushroomed in flesh. They also said that small bullets at high velocity were better at creating casualties. They were trying to make us confident because we were going up against the 7.62mm caliber of the AK47. But I didn't care about size. I cared about quantity and placement.

[fnfalman]

A long time ago I was taught in the Army that the small 5.56mm caliber of the M16 tumbled, not mushroomed in flesh. They also said that small bullets at high velocity were better at creating casualties. They were trying to make us confident because we were going up against the 7.62mm caliber of the AK47. But I didn't care about size. I cared about quantity and placement.

Remember how those basic soldiering manuals would list the US vs Soviet smallarms effective ranges and no matter what, the US smallarms would automatically get the advantage? :whistle:

[smileyman]

USMC rule no. ?? Bring largest weapon you can.
USMC Rule no?? Bring as many of aforementioned weapons as you can.

Or you can carry anything and train Zen-Ninjutsu style for the immaculate head shot.

Or you can do like I do and carry this:
http://www.darksword-armory.com/images/Viking%20Sword.jpg

Never needs reloading, almost always incapacitates with one hit (can't fight unless they can stand on one leg), and carries as much force as your arm does...