WTF- Pregnant, raped, and murdered.

[smileyman]

How and why does this shit happen?????

Every day another disgusting story.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,489389,00.html

Slain Pregnant American Tourist Told Fiance From Car Trunk She Was Going to Die
Friday, February 06, 2009


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AP


Feb. 4: Forensic personnel remove the body of Sara Kuszak, who lived in Savannah, Ga., from a field in Ceiba, eastern Puerto Rico.
Feb. 4: Forensic personnel remove the body of Sara Kuszak, who lived in Savannah, Ga., from a field in Ceiba, eastern Puerto Rico.
SAVANNAH, Georgia — A pregnant tourist who was abducted and killed while jogging in Puerto Rico told her fiance "she was going to die" in a frantic cell phone call from the trunk of her abductor's car, the victim's mother said Friday.

Sara Kuszak, 36, was found dead with her throat slashed Wednesday. Her mother, Joan Lang, said her final call to fiance Cheshire McIntosh offered little hope of escape.

Click here for photos.

"She talked to Cheshire and she told him she knew she was going to die," Lang said by phone from her home in San Jose, Calif. "She knew she didn't have a chance with this man. You can just imagine the agony they were both going through, to say goodbye to each other."

A friend said Kuszak, who moved to Savannah from San Francisco five years ago to live with McIntosh, was a fearless explorer of the islands she visited during work trips with her yacht-captain fiance.

She spent weeks at a time at sea, preparing meals as the crew chef while McIntosh, piloted private yachts for their wealthy owners. Friends say the couple that planned to marry in March were a perfect match — attractive, adventurous and charismatic.

"A lot of these trips were to islands and she would run through some kind of crazy neighborhoods and tell stories about dogs chasing her," said John Everette, a friend of the couple, who lived in Savannah. "She was always somebody who didn't have a lot of fear in her."

Now the couple's friends and families are trying to make sense of why she was grabbed, stuffed into a trunk, raped and killed in the coastal town of Fajardo, Puerto Rico. She was five months pregnant when she was slain.

"That's a line even the most debased person usually just doesn't cross," Everette said Thursday. "It's a particular shame it would happen to her. Everybody has faults, but they were really hard to find with her."

Eliezer Marquez, 36, was charged in court Thursday with kidnapping, rape and first-degree murder in Kuszak's death. Police in Fajardo said he confessed to killing Kuszak after they arrested him Wednesday with bloodstains on his shirt and pants.

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The killing was carried out in the same fashion as murders that Marquez's mother, Ines Navedo, was convicted of committing in 1992. She slit the throats of two young siblings aged 2 and 3.

"He told me he felt bad because he didn't know (Kuszak) was pregnant," said police officer Arsenio Rodriguez. "He was crying and telling me he was sorry because he has a daughter and knew he had made a big mistake."

Police said Marquez told them he spotted Kuszak jogging alone Wednesday, stopped his car and opened the trunk as he waited for her to pass. He then grabbed her and forced her into the trunk.

Kuszak used her cell phone to make a desperate call for help from the trunk of her kidnapper's car Wednesday, about an hour before she was found dead by police. The FBI then used the signal from the phone to help locate the suspect.

Marquez, who could face up to life in prison, walked into court Thursday with his head down for a closed hearing in which the charges against him were announced. He did not enter a plea and does not have a lawyer yet.

"Justice is being done for this victim," prosecutor Francisco Sanchez said outside court. "In this case, there will be no negotiation. He will face the full consequences."

Kuszak moved across the country from San Francisco about five years ago to live with McIntosh on the Georgia coast. Everette said the couple met in the South Pacific, where McIntosh was working on a boat and Kuszak was vacationing with friends.

She had arrived in Puerto Rico to meet up with McIntosh the day before she was killed. Kuszak's mother said she and McIntosh planned to sail together to the Virgin Islands to be married between March 15 and 22.

"The McIntosh family just worshipped Sara," Lang said. "She's always been an adventurous spirit and very smart woman. She had all her ducks in a row."

Everette, a friend of McIntosh's since high school, got to know Kuszak last summer when he joined their crew as a deckhand for a three-week trip from the Virgin Islands to Rhode Island.

When she wasn't preparing meals of fresh fish caught over the side of the 66-foot yacht, Everette said, Kuszak would try to cheer up anyone who might seem glum.

See Next Story in U.S.

[Dave]

her fault in a way, but i would have expected better from PR

[askmrjesus]

her fault in a way, but i would have expected better from PR

WTF? How is it her fault?

JC

[Dave]

WTF? How is it her fault?

JC

going off by herself on every little podunkus island they stop at and going well out of the accepted tourist locations and you dont think she carries some responsibility?

[the chi]

What kills me is the killers MOTHER went to prison for murdering 2 children in the same manner!

[Dave]

What kills me is the killers MOTHER went to prison for murdering 2 children in the same manner!

that part makes sense actually. no question where he gets it from. i'm curious what motivated the mother though

[tommymac]

going off by herself on every little podunkus island they stop at and going well out of the accepted tourist locations and you dont think she carries some responsibility?

PR is a little more civilized then some small deserted island, at least one would hope. Not sure about the area she was jogging in but I cant see her being responsible for any of this. that can just as easily happen in the US and whats worse is that skell can easily have just come to the mainland.

Tom

[askmrjesus]

going off by herself on every little podunkus island they stop at and going well out of the accepted tourist locations and you dont think she carries some responsibility?

No. I think the responsibility lies with the sick fucker that killed her.

In my experience, the farther you get from "accepted tourist locations" the better off you are.

Jamaica was a good example. Everybody and their brother was trying to hussle and/or kidnap me in Negril, but when I took a scooter to the backcountry, nobody fucked with me.

JC

[Particle Man]

going off by herself on every little podunkus island they stop at and going well out of the accepted tourist locations and you dont think she carries some responsibility?seriously??

I know where you're coming from but the fact that she can't do something like this without getting killd just tells me that the human animal is just a sick group of fucks.

[the chi]

Being a bit of a devils advocate here, I know where Dave is coming from. Not saying she is responsible for her death, but witnesses did point out her penchant for veering away from the "known" path and going into less than savvy areas.

Being a woman, I know that if I am dumb enough to visit say "the ghetto", and something happens to me, well, um Im responsible for putting myself there, and even if someone does harm me, they are responsible for what they did to me, but I was in the wrong for putting myself there.

[askmrjesus]

I know where you're coming from but the fact that she can't do something like this without getting killd just tells me that the human animal is just a sick group of fucks.

Not to mention that if you really thought about how safe you were ANYWHERE, you'd never leave the house, and that's no way to live.

JC

[Flexin]

going off by herself on every little podunkus island they stop at and going well out of the accepted tourist locations and you dont think she carries some responsibility?

She has every right to go in all public places. Yes she could have had someone with her but that doesn't mean its her fault.

James

[Dave]

PR is a little more civilized then some small deserted island, at least one would hope. Not sure about the area she was jogging in but I cant see her being responsible for any of this. that can just as easily happen in the US and whats worse is that skell can easily have just come to the mainland.

Tom

it said she did it on all the islands they stopped at, i wasnt specifically referring to pr as podunkus there.

No. I think the responsibility lies with the sick fucker that killed her.

In my experience, the farther you get from "accepted tourist locations" the better off you are.

Jamaica was a good example. Everybody and their brother was trying to hussle and/or kidnap me in Negril, but when I took a scooter to the backcountry, nobody fucked with me.

JC

he has the majority of it yes, but i maintain that she carries some as well

seriously??

I know where you're coming from but the fact that she can't do something like this without getting killd just tells me that the human animal is just a sick group of fucks.

good morning!

Being a bit of a devils advocate here, I know where Dave is coming from. Not saying she is responsible for her death, but witnesses did point out her penchant for veering away from the "known" path and going into less than savvy areas.

Being a woman, I know that if I am dumb enough to visit say "the ghetto", and something happens to me, well, um Im responsible for putting myself there, and even if someone does harm me, they are responsible for what they did to me, but I was in the wrong for putting myself there.

much appreciated

Not to mention that if you really thought about how safe you were ANYWHERE, you'd never leave the house, and that's no way to live.

JC

or you'd go find a peice

She has every right to go in all public places. Yes she could have had someone with her but that doesn't mean its her fault.

James

and you have every right to walk through a tiger cage but try not to get mad at him when he eats you

[Flexin]

it said she did it on all the islands they stopped at, i wasnt specifically referring to pr as podunkus there.



he has the majority of it yes, but i maintain that she carries some as well



good morning!



much appreciated



or you'd go find a peice



and you have every right to walk through a tiger cage but try not to get mad at him when he eats you


A tiger cage and a town/village or when ever are very different. If I step in a tiger cage I know I can end up lunch. If I travel I expect to end up with pictures to post online, not have my ass tossed into a trunk and killed.

I do know people are fucked up and I try to watch out for things no matter where I am.

James

[Dave]

A tiger cage and a town/village or when ever are very different. If I step in a tiger cage I know I can end up lunch. If I travel I expect to end up with pictures to post online, not have my ass tossed into a trunk and killed.

I do know people are fucked up and I try to watch out for things no matter where I am.

James

i spent three years in iraq so maybe my perceptions are a bit skewed there. :dthumb:

[Quick281]

A tiger cage and a town/village or when ever are very different. If I step in a tiger cage I know I can end up lunch. If I travel I expect to end up with pictures to post online, not have my ass tossed into a trunk and killed.

I do know people are fucked up and I try to watch out for things no matter where I am.

James

Maybe people should start expecting to be kidnapped? At least then people will start being more conscious of these things.


Both the tiger cage and the village are a matter of your attitude.

To go into a tigers cage and know you could end up being lunch is you being honest with yourself but you could end up with cool pictures to show everyone.

Jogging through a bad part of town as a nice looking female in a place you are not familiar with is just like running through a cage but it is human instinct to think that all will be just fine.

I am sure she expected a find and dandy trip but if she had looked at her adventures as a risky experience she may have altered choices and still be alive.

[askmrjesus]

Being a bit of a devils advocate here, I know where Dave is coming from. Not saying she is responsible for her death, but witnesses did point out her penchant for veering away from the "known" path and going into less than savvy areas.

Being a woman, I know that if I am dumb enough to visit say "the ghetto", and something happens to me, well, um Im responsible for putting myself there, and even if someone does harm me, they are responsible for what they did to me, but I was in the wrong for putting myself there.

From the Wiki entry for Fajardo (where the woman was killed):

Tourism

Fajardo is popular among tourists, especially local tourists, because of its seafood, hotels, closeness to the small islands of Palomino, Icaco and Palominito, and the many daily trips that were are available to Vieques and Culebra, both by boat and by the four airlines that served Fajardo Airport recently closed: Air Culebra, Air St. Thomas, Isla Nena Air and Vieques Air Link.

Fajardo's perfect beaches are bounded by calm, clear water ideal for snorkeling, Seven Seas Beach, offers plentiful water sports facilities, offshore points for sailing, snorkeling and plenty of scuba diving.

Not exactly the "ghetto"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fajardo_street.jpg

JC

[Quick281]

This wouldn't be the first time a nice tourist spot didn't want to make it's crime problems public.

Still not suggesting she is to blame, but in this day in age you just can be careful enough.

[Flexin]

Maybe people should start expecting to be kidnapped? At least then people will start being more conscious of these things.


Both the tiger cage and the village are a matter of your attitude.

To go into a tigers cage and know you could end up being lunch is you being honest with yourself but you could end up with cool pictures to show everyone.

Jogging through a bad part of town as a nice looking female in a place you are not familiar with is just like running through a cage but it is human instinct to think that all will be just fine.

I am sure she expected a find and dandy trip but if she had looked at her adventures as a risky experience she may have altered choices and still be alive.

Your wrong in thinking everything is fine. I don't like to leave my house with my sneakers untied because it could cause a problem if I had to fight to protect myself.

You have to know things can happen and there are many people out there that are fucked in the head. But at the same time you need to live your life.

A lot o people think that riding a motorcycle is like walking in that tiger cage. :idk: If your hit by a car while on the bike and are hurt or killed, does it make it your fault because you right a motorcycle?

James

[Flexin]

i spent three years in iraq so maybe my perceptions are a bit skewed there. :dthumb:

That could do it.

James

[Quick281]

If your hit by a car while on the bike and are hurt or killed, does it make it your fault because you right a motorcycle?

James

Partially because by getting that motorcycle and being very honest with myself, I accept the fact that I am no longer completely in control of what happens to me. I remind myself that every time I go for a ride, the day it isn't worth it is the day it is time to hang it up.

Edit: This is why I strive to make sure my bike is as visible as possible. I am doing what I can do in order to reduce my odds of other peoples actions.

[rogue]

Partially because by getting that motorcycle and being very honest with myself, I accept the fact that I am no longer completely in control of what happens to me. I remind myself that every time I go for a ride, the day it isn't worth it is the day it is time to hang it up.

You're never in complete control of what happens to you on the road regardless if you're on a bike or a 4x4 truck. However, you may be safer in the truck.

Is that the point you are trying to get across?

[Quick281]

You're never in complete control of what happens to you on the road regardless if you're on a bike or a 4x4 truck. However, you may be safer in the truck.

Is that the point you are trying to get across?


Pretty much. :dthumb: All you can do is be self aware and do what you can to keep the bad things from happening. Whether it is a simple jog around the block by yourself, getting on a motorcycle, or anything of the sort.

For instance: My mom works at a high end retail store at Lenox mall here in Atlanta. Over the years she has worked there, several of her clients have heard/experienced mugging attempts in the parking lot. Several no longer shop there because of these experiences. (Who could blame them?) In fact several murders have even occurred but the news keeps it very hush hush. Mind you these malls are across the street from the Hilton Hotel and the Westin. Not exactly what you would call a bad place but the truth is the most people don't know about the bad things that go on around here and that is exactly how the stores and malls want it.

For that exact reason no matter how slim it is, my 67 year old mother ALWAYS asks for a cop to escort her to her car. Even if it is only 20 feet away or 1 floor down, she doesn't let that slim chance occur.

I don't deny that this isn't a fucked up situation, but there are so many of these in the news anymore. It just pays to do what you can to keep yourself safe. :dthumb:

[Flexin]

Partially because by getting that motorcycle and being very honest with myself, I accept the fact that I am no longer completely in control of what happens to me. I remind myself that every time I go for a ride, the day it isn't worth it is the day it is time to hang it up.

Edit: This is why I strive to make sure my bike is as visible as possible. I am doing what I can do in order to reduce my odds of other peoples actions.

Exactly. Thats what I did. Well I didn't do anything to make my bike more visible as far as looks go. But I would ride it like it was a tractor trailer. I would make it hard for you not to see me. I would stay out of blind spots and use brakes or throttle to get out of a spot that didn't look right.

How many cops are killed when hit by cars while making a stop on the side of the road? Can't get much more visible then flashing lights in the middle of the night. Yet it still happens.

So she could have did things to protect herself but that random act happened and she was killed. We were not there so we don't know how it happened. She could have ran to the other side of the street but was chased down. Its hard to say.

But one thing we can say is unless she was jogging with a sign around her neck that said have your way with me then kill me, it wasn't her "fault".

James

[Quick281]

Looks like we agree, on agreeing. :rockwoot:

[askmrjesus]

This wouldn't be the first time a nice tourist spot didn't want to make it's crime problems public.

Still not suggesting she is to blame, but in this day in age you just can be careful enough.

Agreed. Tourists get killed all the time, in the nicest of places.

I'm just trying to point out that several assumptions have been made here, with little or no evidence.

A. "Bad part of town". The girl was killed by a fucking psycho with a psycho mother. That could happen anywhere psychos tend to gather, which is pretty much anywhere these days.

B. "Podunk islands are dangerous". Yes and no. Parts of podunk islands can be dangerous, but there is no guarantee that the nice part of town doesn't have a psycho living in it.

C. "She should have known better". Maybe she did. We have no clue as to her level of situational awareness. She could have been as shrewd as hell for all we know, but got caught off guard by a psycho killer. It happens.

JC

[Flexin]

Pretty much. :dthumb: All you can do is be self aware and do what you can to keep the bad things from happening. Whether it is a simple jog around the block by yourself, getting on a motorcycle, or anything of the sort.

For instance: My mom works at a high end retail store at Lenox mall here in Atlanta. Over the years she has worked there, several of her clients have heard/experienced mugging attempts in the parking lot. Several no longer shop there because of these experiences. (Who could blame them?) In fact several murders have even occurred but the news keeps it very hush hush. Mind you these malls are across the street from the Hilton Hotel and the Westin. Not exactly what you would call a bad place but the truth is the most people don't know about the bad things that go on around here and that is exactly how the stores and malls want it.

For that exact reason no matter how slim it is, my 67 year old mother ALWAYS asks for a cop to escort her to her car. Even if it is only 20 feet away or 1 floor down, she doesn't let that slim chance occur.

I don't deny that this isn't a fucked up situation, but there are so many of these in the news anymore. It just pays to do what you can to keep yourself safe. :dthumb:

The thing is you can do everything in your power to be safe but shit can still happen. Your mother is much safer having a cop walking her to the car. That is a very smart thing to do but if someone wanted to do something bad enough there is still a chance of something bad happening.

I was at a club with my wife and about 5 other women. Two were leaving early and had to walk a block or two away to the car. I walked them to the car. When they could see the car they thanked me and said they were fine from there. I wasn't having it and walked them right to the car. I went back to the club after they drove off. But lets be honest. They were safer walking with me but I can't stop everything from happening. For example there has been nights where a group of kids (10+) were jumping people. If they decide they don't care that I'm there is a chance that I'm not going to be enough to stop something from happening.

James

[Flexin]

Looks like we agree, on agreeing. :rockwoot:

I agree with everything but the fact that it was "her fault".

James

[Quick281]

The thing is you can do everything in your power to be safe but shit can still happen. Your mother is much safer having a cop walking her to the car. That is a very smart thing to do but if someone wanted to do something bad enough there is still a chance of something bad happening.

I was at a club with my wife and about 5 other women. Two were leaving early and had to walk a block or two away to the car. I walked them to the car. When they could see the car they thanked me and said they were fine from there. I wasn't having it and walked them right to the car. I went back to the club after they drove off. But lets be honest. They were safer walking with me but I can't stop everything from happening. For example there has been nights where a group of kids (10+) were jumping people. If they decide they don't care that I'm there is a chance that I'm not going to be enough to stop something from happening.

James

But if something like that did happen no one would stop and say, well those girls should have had someone with them. At that point I think the most common of people would say, well god damn those gangs of kids and there would be little to be said about lack of precautions taken.

Nothing can be completely prevented, but when people don't take the extra precautions that they should people will look back on incidents and put a bit of blame on the victim.

[Flexin]

But if something like that did happen no one would stop and say, well those girls should have had someone with them. At that point I think the most common of people would say, well god damn those gangs of kids and there would be little to be said about lack of precautions taken.

Nothing can be completely prevented, but when people don't take the extra precautions that they should people will look back on incidents and put a bit of blame on the victim.

But we don't know if she took any precautions.

James

[Flexin]

And I like to get my hands on the guy that did it. He is upset because she was pregnant? So it was only wrong because she was pregnant?

James

[Quick281]

But we don't know if she took any precautions.

James


I assume she didn't because there would either be a second body or someone would have notified the police of the kidnapping right away.

None the less, I hope the fucker dies a long and terrible death in jail.

[Flexin]

I assume she didn't because there would either be a second body or someone would have notified the police of the kidnapping right away.

None the less, I hope the fucker dies a long and terrible death in jail.

She could have had a weapon (gun/knife/mace) but was caught off guard. And she did have a cell phone and called for help herself. You can't always have another person with you. If she had some fear she might not have run close enough to the guy to be grabbed. But to say it was her fault is wrong.

James

[Porkchop]

And I like to get my hands on the guy that did it. He is upset because she was pregnant? So it was only wrong because she was pregnant?

James

"He told me he felt bad because he didn't know (Kuszak) was pregnant," said police officer Arsenio Rodriguez. "He was crying and telling me he was sorry because he has a daughter and knew he had made a big mistake."

This is what really gets me burnt beyond all belief. What is the difference??? So it was ok that you raped and slayed a defenseless human alone. Why do you now feel bad that you have taken a fetus' life. So would it have not been a big mistake if she was not pregnant? I cant imagine what goes thru these whack-o's heads......

Another big advocate of conceal carry here....

[the chi]

From the Wiki entry for Fajardo (where the woman was killed):

Tourism

Fajardo is popular among tourists, especially local tourists, because of its seafood, hotels, closeness to the small islands of Palomino, Icaco and Palominito, and the many daily trips that were are available to Vieques and Culebra, both by boat and by the four airlines that served Fajardo Airport recently closed: Air Culebra, Air St. Thomas, Isla Nena Air and Vieques Air Link.

Fajardo's perfect beaches are bounded by calm, clear water ideal for snorkeling, Seven Seas Beach, offers plentiful water sports facilities, offshore points for sailing, snorkeling and plenty of scuba diving.

Not exactly the "ghetto"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fajardo_street.jpg

JC

Apparently you missed the "devils advocate" part of my post. I wasnt saying she was in the ghetto, merely using it as an example for arguments sake. Being responsible for oneself regardless of where your at or who you are with ultimately falls on each individual. Not saying she is at fault, I dont think she is, BUT, even her own family and friends mentioned her penchant for going in areas someone thats not a local should at least have the common sense to avoid. You can ALWAYS turn around when you find youve gone the wrong way.

It does so happen my adopted family are PR's, i mentioned this to my best friend, and also mentioned the womans penchant for going in "unsavory" areas. I got the "retard" look from her, as there are MANY areas, right next to "tourist" areas that are NOT recommended for non locals to visit. The locals WILL get you. Obviously. As a matter of fact, theyve promised me that when they take me to visit, they wont leave me alone, as a white woman makes too tempting a target...


A lot o people think that riding a motorcycle is like walking in that tiger cage. :idk: If your hit by a car while on the bike and are hurt or killed, does it make it your fault because you right a motorcycle?

James

Ah but, you see here, I accept that when I go out on my bike, I may get hurt or even killed. My fault or not, I take on the responsibility for riding a bike, and ultimately, if something did happen, I would in part be responsible for my own death, as I made the decision to get on that bike. I take responsibility for my own actions and choices.

My family would scream and go up in arms if something happened to me, if a car ran me over, they wouldnt just accept it as i do, they would demand someone look into the matter, and explain how it could have happened. I can tell you how it happened. I ride a bike. I take my life into my own hands every time I get on that bike. I take chances and hope that everyone else on the road in a car pays attention.

The car that hits me? Are they at fault? Fuck yeah. Unless I did something stupid, almost completely.

But if I hadnt been on the bike, they might never have hit me.

This poor woman and her tragedy, I hope the guy gets what he deserves. And I dont think its her fault this happened, by any means.

But must everyone take responsibility for their actions? Yes.

She could have taken a friend, she could have gone another route, she could have stayed at her hotel and run. Any number of decisions on her part might have made a difference and she'd still be here. And I would bet, if she were here to answer, she'd tell us the same.

[Flexin]

Apparently you missed the "devils advocate" part of my post. I wasnt saying she was in the ghetto, merely using it as an example for arguments sake. Being responsible for oneself regardless of where your at or who you are with ultimately falls on each individual. Not saying she is at fault, I dont think she is, BUT, even her own family and friends mentioned her penchant for going in areas someone thats not a local should at least have the common sense to avoid. You can ALWAYS turn around when you find youve gone the wrong way.

It does so happen my adopted family are PR's, i mentioned this to my best friend, and also mentioned the womans penchant for going in "unsavory" areas. I got the "retard" look from her, as there are MANY areas, right next to "tourist" areas that are NOT recommended for non locals to visit. The locals WILL get you. Obviously. As a matter of fact, theyve promised me that when they take me to visit, they wont leave me alone, as a white woman makes too tempting a target...



Ah but, you see here, I accept that when I go out on my bike, I may get hurt or even killed. My fault or not, I take on the responsibility for riding a bike, and ultimately, if something did happen, I would in part be responsible for my own death, as I made the decision to get on that bike. I take responsibility for my own actions and choices.

My family would scream and go up in arms if something happened to me, if a car ran me over, they wouldnt just accept it as i do, they would demand someone look into the matter, and explain how it could have happened. I can tell you how it happened. I ride a bike. I take my life into my own hands every time I get on that bike. I take chances and hope that everyone else on the road in a car pays attention.

The car that hits me? Are they at fault? Fuck yeah. Unless I did something stupid, almost completely.

But if I hadnt been on the bike, they might never have hit me.

This poor woman and her tragedy, I hope the guy gets what he deserves. And I dont think its her fault this happened, by any means.

But must everyone take responsibility for their actions? Yes.

She could have taken a friend, she could have gone another route, she could have stayed at her hotel and run. Any number of decisions on her part might have made a difference and she'd still be here. And I would bet, if she were here to answer, she'd tell us the same.

But your assuming that she didn't accept that fact that something could happen to her.

If your riding and you are hit, and you didn't do anything wrong then it is their fault. You could have taken a different road but why would you? You didn't know it was going to happen. If you did you could have taken the same road and stopped a few hundred feet before the spot and let him crash on his own.

She had no way of knowing that this fucked up guy would have been on that road. If she did know a guy was on the road that would kill her she would have had the cops pick the guy up.

If she took a different route she might have found another fucked up idiot that wants to take her life. I'm sure there is more then one on that island. There is more then a few in North America.

Yes if she was here she could name off things that would have kept him from having a chance to murder her. Some of those would have saved her life. And like I already pointed out some could have just put her in a different type of danger.

We could do all kinds of what if's. If she was a fat lazy woman she would have been laying in front of the tv/internet/or talking to her 15 cats. That could have saved her that day.

But your forgetting something. That guy wanted to kill someone. He was taking someone. It just so happened to be her. It was his fault.

James

[the chi]

Where did I deny that it was his fault? I didnt. And im not assuming anything. Im just offering options,. alternatives and other things for thought. Some people dont respond well to that. Maybe thats why its called "Devils Advocate".

Think what you like hun, and your right, there will always be what ifs...theres no denying that, but accepting thats theres consequences, fucked up tho they may be, is just a part of life.

We could walk out the door tomorrow and have a heart attack on our porch. This could be from something terrifying. It could be because we are fat and lazy and dont take care of ourself. Or we could hide inside and die from lack of sunlight and water like a houseplant. Cause and effect. Or something like that, is the only thing I am pointing out. Not situational specific to this poor case.

This poor woman lost her life cuz there are shitty people in the world. Even shittier is her future hubby lost his wife, and his baby in one shot. Life sucks. Hope he gets his.

What do we take from this? Maybe someone will think twice before going on a run in a strange place unaccompanied.

Why does this sound like the twilight zone?

[Flexin]

Where did I deny that it was his fault? I didnt. And im not assuming anything. Im just offering options,. alternatives and other things for thought. Some people dont respond well to that. Maybe thats why its called "Devils Advocate".

Think what you like hun, and your right, there will always be what ifs...theres no denying that, but accepting thats theres consequences, fucked up tho they may be, is just a part of life.

We could walk out the door tomorrow and have a heart attack on our porch. This could be from something terrifying. It could be because we are fat and lazy and dont take care of ourself. Or we could hide inside and die from lack of sunlight and water like a houseplant. Cause and effect. Or something like that, is the only thing I am pointing out. Not situational specific to this poor case.

This poor woman lost her life cuz there are shitty people in the world. Even shittier is her future hubby lost his wife, and his baby in one shot. Life sucks. Hope he gets his.

What do we take from this? Maybe someone will think twice before going on a run in a strange place unaccompanied.

Why does this sound like the twilight zone?

What do we take from this? Always be aware of what is going on around you. Look for possible dangers. And do your best to avoid them. Do this while you enjoy what you love to do in life.

Like you said. Anyone could have a heart attack tomorrow. So why not enjoy life. It sucks that someone would take her life for no reason. She died enjoying life.

James

[Dave]

Apparently you missed the "devils advocate" part of my post. I wasnt saying she was in the ghetto, merely using it as an example for arguments sake. Being responsible for oneself regardless of where your at or who you are with ultimately falls on each individual. Not saying she is at fault, I dont think she is, BUT, even her own family and friends mentioned her penchant for going in areas someone thats not a local should at least have the common sense to avoid. You can ALWAYS turn around when you find youve gone the wrong way.

It does so happen my adopted family are PR's, i mentioned this to my best friend, and also mentioned the womans penchant for going in "unsavory" areas. I got the "retard" look from her, as there are MANY areas, right next to "tourist" areas that are NOT recommended for non locals to visit. The locals WILL get you. Obviously. As a matter of fact, theyve promised me that when they take me to visit, they wont leave me alone, as a white woman makes too tempting a target...



Ah but, you see here, I accept that when I go out on my bike, I may get hurt or even killed. My fault or not, I take on the responsibility for riding a bike, and ultimately, if something did happen, I would in part be responsible for my own death, as I made the decision to get on that bike. I take responsibility for my own actions and choices.

My family would scream and go up in arms if something happened to me, if a car ran me over, they wouldnt just accept it as i do, they would demand someone look into the matter, and explain how it could have happened. I can tell you how it happened. I ride a bike. I take my life into my own hands every time I get on that bike. I take chances and hope that everyone else on the road in a car pays attention.

The car that hits me? Are they at fault? Fuck yeah. Unless I did something stupid, almost completely.

But if I hadnt been on the bike, they might never have hit me.

This poor woman and her tragedy, I hope the guy gets what he deserves. And I dont think its her fault this happened, by any means.

But must everyone take responsibility for their actions? Yes.

She could have taken a friend, she could have gone another route, she could have stayed at her hotel and run. Any number of decisions on her part might have made a difference and she'd still be here. And I would bet, if she were here to answer, she'd tell us the same.

i again not for the first time wish we had a rep system. in the absence of such, RAE you're awesome!

What do we take from this? Always be aware of what is going on around you. Look for possible dangers. And do your best to avoid them. Do this while you enjoy what you love to do in life.

Like you said. Anyone could have a heart attack tomorrow. So why not enjoy life. It sucks that someone would take her life for no reason. She died enjoying life.

James

i wholeheartedly disagree with your last statement. however i do believe she had her affairs in order and i hope she had some form of faith (though from her convictions about her fate i have doubt)

[azoomm]

What do we take from this? Always be aware of what is going on around you. Look for possible dangers. And do your best to avoid them. Do this while you enjoy what you love to do in life.

Like you said. Anyone could have a heart attack tomorrow. So why not enjoy life. It sucks that someone would take her life for no reason. She died enjoying life.

James

My first thought was that EVERY person needs to at least take a simple self defense class. I mean, being stuffed into a trunk - put your arm or leg in the way. A broken leg is better than them being able to close the trunk and driving away with you. If they can't close it - they can't drive without attracting attention. Learn how to use anything as a weapon... ANYTHING from the side of a car to it's mirror to a wall or even leverage off the ground.

Never NEVER EVER stop fighting.

It isn't her fault.

[Tmall]

A tiger cage and a town/village or when ever are very different. If I step in a tiger cage I know I can end up lunch. If I travel I expect to end up with pictures to post online, not have my ass tossed into a trunk and killed.

I do know people are fucked up and I try to watch out for things no matter where I am.

James


Would you walk through Uniacke Square at night alone? You have every right to be there. Maybe walk Gottingen street at night with something expensive looking in your hand? You have every right to be there.. :idk:

There's places I don't go. I may have every right to be there, but I'm smart enough to know that the chances of something happening go up exponentially when I'm in "bad" areas.

It's a horrible shame this had to happen to her. And I'm sure she wasn't scared or didn't think this would happen to her. But, it has happened. She's now dead, and there's no lesson for her to learn.

Being headstrong and fearless are great, until being headstrong and fearless get you killed.

[Flexin]

Would you walk through Uniacke Square at night alone? You have every right to be there. Maybe walk Gottingen street at night with something expensive looking in your hand? You have every right to be there.. :idk:

There's places I don't go. I may have every right to be there, but I'm smart enough to know that the chances of something happening go up exponentially when I'm in "bad" areas.

It's a horrible shame this had to happen to her. And I'm sure she wasn't scared or didn't think this would happen to her. But, it has happened. She's now dead, and there's no lesson for her to learn.

Being headstrong and fearless are great, until being headstrong and fearless get you killed.

I have been down Gottingen more then a few times at night. I have been to Uniacke Square as well. I have walked from Downtown town to Spryfield and back alone, at night. I have been to Preston at night.

I went to Cole Harbour at night and went to the bathroom alone with about 8-10 guys that are not big fans of black people in the place. Two followed me in the two fuckers had no plans on using that bathroom. They changed their mind quick when they got in there.

At 17 I walked downtown Boston at night with my cousin and friend. We walked around for over an hour till we got talking to a guy that didn't believe we were not down there to get into the drug trade. He asked us to hang on, side he would be right back. Yeeeeaahhhh Right. He went around the corner and jumped in my car and left. I'm black not stupid.

When I was in Indy I went to area's at night that might not have been a good idea to be in at night alone. I was in my car but did get out in different places. Sometimes to find an IHOP (which they don't always put in the best area's) and of course the strip clubs at night. Did the same thing in Saginaw.

Yes there are places you don't go at certain times of the night but as HAY-soos pointed out she wasn't exactly in a ghetto. I got home from work at 6 and had about 3 hours sleep now so I could be wrong but had the impression that this happened during the day.

If it was at night she took a big risk that she shouldn't have taken.

People are misreading many things I'm saying.

You have to be careful any time of the day. I will sit in a place so I have an eye on the door and if possible the parking lot at the same time. I look around to look for any trouble just like when riding a motorcycle. I check behind me so I know what is going on around me. I'm not a trusting person so I'm always waiting for something to happen. For the most part when people have came after me it hasn't been alone. I lived off on John Par Dr. I came home one night to find 8+ people looking for me. Some have bats or bars and one claimed to have a gun from what my friends said. I don't have to worry about finding trouble. Trouble has no problem finding me.

James

[MILK]

And I like to get my hands on the guy that did it. He is upset because she was pregnant? So it was only wrong because she was pregnant?

James

He knew she was pregnant. He will never admit he knew but she told him. ANY woman in that position would tell their attacker in the hopes they could save their baby. He knew. Obviously I do not know that - but think about it...

I also think HE was the one who molested and killed those 2 toddlers, not his mom. Just my opinion obviously.

To all who say it's her 'fault.' I am going running in a few hours in my small neighborhood, which is not a bad area. However, if I am raped and killed please feel free to start a thread to discuss how it's my FAULT.

Did any of you not read the part where she got LOST?? She wasn't supposed to be where she was - SHE GOT LOST. She was running to another marina to meet someone.

[the chi]

He knew she was pregnant. He will never admit he knew but she told him. ANY woman in that position would tell their attacker in the hopes they could save their baby. He knew. Obviously I do not know that - but think about it...

I also think HE was the one who molested and killed those 2 toddlers, not his mom. Just my opinion obviously.

To all who say it's her 'fault.' I am going running in a few hours in my small neighborhood, which is not a bad area. However, if I am raped and killed please feel free to start a thread to discuss how it's my FAULT.

Did any of you not read the part where she got LOST?? She wasn't supposed to be where she was - SHE GOT LOST. She was running to another marina to meet someone.

You know, I hadnt thought about it, but your probably right, he probably did murder those kids and mom took the rap...in the latin culture it wouldnt be unheard of...

[Flexin]

He knew she was pregnant. He will never admit he knew but she told him. ANY woman in that position would tell their attacker in the hopes they could save their baby. He knew. Obviously I do not know that - but think about it...

I also think HE was the one who molested and killed those 2 toddlers, not his mom. Just my opinion obviously.

To all who say it's her 'fault.' I am going running in a few hours in my small neighborhood, which is not a bad area. However, if I am raped and killed please feel free to start a thread to discuss how it's my FAULT.

Did any of you not read the part where she got LOST?? She wasn't supposed to be where she was - SHE GOT LOST. She was running to another marina to meet someone.

Good point about the baby.

I missed the part about her getting lost but I'm running on little sleep so I will read it again later.

James

[rogue]

Good point about the baby.

I missed the part about her getting lost but I'm running on little sleep so I will read it again later.

James

You're not the only one who misssed it that she got lost too. That sheds a whole new light on the subject.

And yeah....that fucker knew she was pregnant before he raped and killed her.

[t-homo]

This is fuckin shitty to hear. When I was in 5th grade, my family went to Puerto Rico for vacation with a large group of people that they worked with. The guy who was organizing the thing said that no women should ever be by themselves any time of day, anywhere they were. One of the nights there was a murder across the street from my hotel. You can never be too careful.

[Porkchop]

To all who say it's her 'fault.' I am going running in a few hours in my small neighborhood, which is not a bad area. However, if I am raped and killed please feel free to start a thread to discuss how it's my FAULT.

:zowned:

I bet you guys feel like huge douchenozzles now.......


Oh, and be safe hun!!!!

[OneSickPsycho]

He knew she was pregnant. He will never admit he knew but she told him. ANY woman in that position would tell their attacker in the hopes they could save their baby. He knew. Obviously I do not know that - but think about it...

I also think HE was the one who molested and killed those 2 toddlers, not his mom. Just my opinion obviously.

To all who say it's her 'fault.' I am going running in a few hours in my small neighborhood, which is not a bad area. However, if I am raped and killed please feel free to start a thread to discuss how it's my FAULT.

Did any of you not read the part where she got LOST?? She wasn't supposed to be where she was - SHE GOT LOST. She was running to another marina to meet someone.

Will do.

:zowned:

I bet you guys feel like huge douchenozzles now.......


Oh, and be safe hun!!!!

No, not really.

[Quick281]

Will do.




Is it cool if I just copy and paste all the crap I said on this thread onto the one about her?

[Porkchop]

Will do. No, not really.

Is it cool if I just copy and paste all the crap I said on this thread onto the one about her?


:panic::panic::panic: Wow.....

[OneSickPsycho]

:panic::panic::panic: Wow.....

Hi, I'm OSP... I don't give a fuck... I don't give a fuck about you, about this pregnant, raped, and murdered broad or 99.9% of the people I've ever come in contact with... I don't give a fuck. Good to meet you... go fuck yourself.

[Porkchop]

Hi, I'm OSP... I don't give a fuck... I don't give a fuck about you, about this pregnant, raped, and murdered broad or 99.9% of the people I've ever come in contact with... I don't give a fuck. Good to meet you... go fuck yourself.

Are you all for show or what...... :whistle:

[OneSickPsycho]

Are you all for show or what...... :whistle:

What you see is what you get...

[Porkchop]

What you see is what you get...

I guess thats easy enough.... lol :dthumb: