View Full Version : Harley bought 'em, maybe something good will happen
Phenix_Rider
02-22-2009, 05:19 PM
Don't care for the GS concept, but that sporty is sure pretty :drool: And the more triples around, the better! (read the article)
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/022009top.jpg
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/022009middle.jpg
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/20february09_cagiva_elefant.htm
that Schiranna is sweet looking. don't like the rotax in it though.
Adeptus_Minor
02-22-2009, 08:32 PM
Oooo...
The Schiranna - presumably named for the hometown of MV Agusta's engine plant - is a much sportier prospect. It's pure superbike, from the radial-mount Brembo brake calipers to the giant swingarm. Expect this bike (if it exists) to have a highly tuned Rotax V-Twin and be aimed squarely at Ducati's competition-crushing 1098R; since MV Agusta will be building high-performance triples and fours, it makes sense to use Cagiva to tackle the V-Twin superbike market.
Of course, it'll be a $15k+ bike, but still sounds sexy as hell.
marko138
02-22-2009, 09:36 PM
1st pic...sexy
2nd pic...not so much.
schiranna is a sexy bitch. finally a good looking wrapper for the helicon
Cutty72
02-22-2009, 11:00 PM
that Schiranna is sweet looking. don't like the rotax in it though.
What's wrong with the Rotax???
I happen to like it.
What's wrong with the Rotax???
I happen to like it.
LOL, you don't have a choice with that bike.
something that the lead mechanic always told me about rotax, he couldn't understand how they stayed in business when everyone that uses their motors ends up going out of business. I've not had personal experience with the motors.
Cutty72
02-22-2009, 11:07 PM
LOL, you don't have a choice with that bike.
something that the lead mechanic always told me about rotax, he couldn't understand how they stayed in business when everyone that uses their motors ends up going out of business. I've not had personal experience with the motors.
Not really, I could love the 1125, but hate the motor. but I don't. :idk:
It could get a bit better mileage, but it's a big bore V-twin. not many get great mileage, especially with an aggressive right hand.
As for them all going out of business, BRP/Ski Doo/Sea Doo seems to be doing well.
As for them all going out of business, BRP/Ski Doo/Sea Doo seems to be doing well.
one doing ok isn't doing ok. sun shines on a dogs ass once in a while. if you can't tell, I don't like BPR either.
Cutty72
02-22-2009, 11:19 PM
one doing ok isn't doing ok. sun shines on a dogs ass once in a while. if you can't tell, I don't like BPR either.
You didn't say they were doing well or not. You said that everyone that uses their motor goes out of business.
BRP is not out of business
Buell is not out of business
I have no experience with BRP products personally, but friends that have 'em haven't had issues.
And mine has been good, so I'm happy.
nhgunnut
02-23-2009, 04:59 AM
It will be interesting to see how much Deisgn Tech corsses company lines and what makes it to market. The Elefant seems to be aimed right at the
XB12X niche so if it does go into production I wonder if they will bring it stateside? As for the Rotax motor in general they seem great to me
tlstreak
02-23-2009, 06:34 AM
They will have to get a lot better. The New Buell performs almost as good as a 10 year old Aprilia. Thats not saying much. I doubt the Rotax motor is going to improve by leaps and bounds if they only really get a new order to design a new motor once a decade. Maybe thats why Aprilia is playing with the V4 motor now.
Tmall
02-23-2009, 07:51 AM
They will have to get a lot better. The New Buell performs almost as good as a 10 year old Aprilia. Thats not saying much. I doubt the Rotax motor is going to improve by leaps and bounds if they only really get a new order to design a new motor once a decade. Maybe thats why Aprilia is playing with the V4 motor now.
The new motor keeps up with the all powerful and awe inspiring Gsxr 750.. Considering it's a street oriented v-twin, I'd say that's impressive.
Compare it to the geared down 1125cr, and I doubt it'll touch it on the street.
So, what exactly is the problem with a 145hp v-twin that makes 85lb of tq?
The new motor keeps up with the all powerful and awe inspiring Gsxr 750.. Considering it's a street oriented v-twin, I'd say that's impressive.
Compare it to the geared down 1125cr, and I doubt it'll touch it on the street.
So, what exactly is the problem with a 145hp v-twin that makes 85lb of tq?
another bike that hasnt seen much in the way of power gains in a decade :whistle:
marko138
02-23-2009, 09:04 AM
:lol Haters.
tlstreak
02-23-2009, 05:24 PM
I dont down buells, I hate the new bike, and would take the 9 or 12 over it looks and ride wise for me.
But for a new bike to come out as the new "HOT" model with power and handling less than a 10 year old bike (the Aprilia chasis was better) it just doesnt say much for the company and designer.
I doubt the Buell would compete with the 750 on a day to day basis either. I had less money in my 99 TL than a new buell costs new and it would have walked all over the thing with the mods I had on it, and that was a shit selling bike, Ill take my money and buy a good used priller and give it some love and have a blast all the way to the bank. Maybe with some decent designers and some money backing them, we might see a nice twin again besides an over costly high maint. Ducati which seems to be the only true twin builder year after year.
I dont down buells, I hate the new bike, and would take the 9 or 12 over it looks and ride wise for me.
But for a new bike to come out as the new "HOT" model with power and handling less than a 10 year old bike (the Aprilia chasis was better) it just doesnt say much for the company and designer.
I doubt the Buell would compete with the 750 on a day to day basis either. I had less money in my 99 TL than a new buell costs new and it would have walked all over the thing with the mods I had on it, and that was a shit selling bike, Ill take my money and buy a good used priller and give it some love and have a blast all the way to the bank. Maybe with some decent designers and some money backing them, we might see a nice twin again besides an over costly high maint. Ducati which seems to be the only true twin builder year after year.
might not even have to go used, ive been earing about 'priller dealers unloading old stock rsvs (do we call them twos now? ;) ) in the 9-10 k range
Tmall
02-23-2009, 06:15 PM
another bike that hasnt seen much in the way of power gains in a decade :whistle:
The Gsxr? It's putting down more whp than that 954 does stock.. Not that I like gsxrs. But, it's definitely seen changes.
It will be interesting to see how much Deisgn Tech corsses company lines and what makes it to market. The Elefant seems to be aimed right at the
XB12X niche so if it does go into production I wonder if they will bring it stateside? As for the Rotax motor in general they seem great to me
looks more aimed at ktm and bmw to me. look how tall it is, screams gs fighter
The Gsxr? It's putting down more whp than that 954 does stock.. Not that I like gsxrs. But, it's definitely seen changes.
barely. in the same time it took the 750 to pick up 6hp (6 years) the 600 gained 16 and the 1000 grabbed 21.
in your other statement, you might be right on power. very wrong on torque, and mine is lighter :whistle:
Tmall
02-24-2009, 07:55 AM
barely. in the same time it took the 750 to pick up 6hp (6 years) the 600 gained 16 and the 1000 grabbed 21.
in your other statement, you might be right on power. very wrong on torque, and mine is lighter :whistle:
And the Buell gained 50! At the loss of 3 ft/lbs. It "only" has 82-83 now.. :whistle:
So, now it's down 20hp on an i4 litre. Keep in mind.. If I wanted an I4 litre. That's exactly what I would have bought. Not to mention it makes more tq off idle than the i4s do up until 11-12k rpm.
I'll point it out again, Buell makes street bikes that are race capable. In the hands of the right rider, it will more than keep up on the track. In the hands of a novice rider, it'll keep up easily on the street until you get to the highway. I don't ride much highway, we have hundreds and hundreds of miles of twisties here.
If the only corners I had were onramps. I'd probably care about peak hp. But, with the twisties here, I put it in third and use the tq. I'm good from about 15mph to about 80 mph in third gear. And it pulls from all rpm.
YMMV but, I got a brand new motorcycle for 2/3 the cost of a litre bike. And all I lost was the ability to hit 186mph. :idk:
tlstreak
02-24-2009, 08:06 AM
There were a couple selling points on the old Buells I liked alot. Easy maint. No valve checks. Belt driven, so no more cleaning and tighten a chain. I love twins far more than an I4. Every Buell ive been on was a all day comfortable riding posture. Decent street suspension, and capable brakes. Wasnt the biggest fan of the perimeter brake rotor. They have factory upgrades that made sense for the bike. One day ill probably own one. I have my lil 929 street fighter project now and its been fun so far.
I happen to think they might have went away from what really made sense with the bikes on the newest version. Back to valve adjustments and trying to compete in a market their not ready for. Kinda like BMW and Moto Guzzi they build bikes designed for a purpose, stick with what works first.
marko138
02-24-2009, 09:16 AM
I dont down buells, I hate the new bike, and would take the 9 or 12 over it looks and ride wise for me.
I would too...and did. :lol: I LOVE the engine in this bike. Like you said...super easy...very little maintenence...endless torque and an unbeatable sound.
And the Buell gained 50! At the loss of 3 ft/lbs. It "only" has 82-83 now.. :whistle:
So, now it's down 20hp on an i4 litre. Keep in mind.. If I wanted an I4 litre. That's exactly what I would have bought. Not to mention it makes more tq off idle than the i4s do up until 11-12k rpm.
I'll point it out again, Buell makes street bikes that are race capable. In the hands of the right rider, it will more than keep up on the track. In the hands of a novice rider, it'll keep up easily on the street until you get to the highway. I don't ride much highway, we have hundreds and hundreds of miles of twisties here.
If the only corners I had were onramps. I'd probably care about peak hp. But, with the twisties here, I put it in third and use the tq. I'm good from about 15mph to about 80 mph in third gear. And it pulls from all rpm.
YMMV but, I got a brand new motorcycle for 2/3 the cost of a litre bike. And all I lost was the ability to hit 186mph. :idk:
have you ridden a modern liter bike? I had ridden a ZX11D1 for years, hell of a lot of low end power comes on like a big block (pick your favorite manufacturer), I now own an 06 ZX10R it will do 100MPH in first and I can also do corners in 3rd (hell and do about 120 if needed) there is plenty of power in third.
one question for ya, if a V twin will keep up with an I4, why do they need such a bigger motor at the race track?
And the Buell gained 50! At the loss of 3 ft/lbs. It "only" has 82-83 now.. :whistle:
So, now it's down 20hp on an i4 litre. Keep in mind.. If I wanted an I4 litre. That's exactly what I would have bought. Not to mention it makes more tq off idle than the i4s do up until 11-12k rpm.
I'll point it out again, Buell makes street bikes that are race capable. In the hands of the right rider, it will more than keep up on the track. In the hands of a novice rider, it'll keep up easily on the street until you get to the highway. I don't ride much highway, we have hundreds and hundreds of miles of twisties here.
If the only corners I had were onramps. I'd probably care about peak hp. But, with the twisties here, I put it in third and use the tq. I'm good from about 15mph to about 80 mph in third gear. And it pulls from all rpm.
YMMV but, I got a brand new motorcycle for 2/3 the cost of a litre bike. And all I lost was the ability to hit 186mph. :idk:
i was talking about power changes in a single model with either the same or same type motor. you cant use that analogy with your above statement since you are using two different models and one of them aircooled.
Rsv1000R
02-25-2009, 12:29 PM
one question for ya, if a V twin will keep up with an I4, why do they need such a bigger motor at the race track?
It's easier to make a 1L I4 spin faster than a 1L V2 does, that allows the heads to make more HP. Just like a 1L 6 will make more hp than a I4. Twins do tend to make more torque, and being narrow keeps a lot of reciprocating mass in the middle of the bike, opposed to I4's that have spinning mass way out the sides of the bike.
Oh, BTW Rotax stays in business because they also makes aircraft engines.
damn now i have to compare old cb1000 numbers to cbx numbers to validate the above statement.
Rsv1000R
02-25-2009, 01:28 PM
damn now i have to compare old cb1000 numbers to cbx numbers to validate the above statement.
Better yet, you could build them all in an engine simulator and see that they make the same hp/torque curve relationship we see between 600/1000 I4's and 1000 twins. And then toss in a 6 just because you can....
There's a 900 and 750 of the same head design as the cbx, But I'm not sure if there's a 1000.....
smileyman
02-25-2009, 01:35 PM
Apples and Oranges love...
I like how you guys forgot completely that Harley purchased Cagiva and then announced major US plant layoffs in Milwaukee.:panic:
Or how Cagiva is in no way prepared or able to produce bikes in volume for import at a profitable margin regardless of ownership:panic:
Oh, and I like GSXRs and Buells...Aprilias not so much...I feel they are overrated.
Rsv1000R
02-25-2009, 01:48 PM
Oh, and I like GSXRs and Buells...Aprilias not so much...I feel they are overrated.
It's a little low on power compared to newer bikes, But it still has plenty to have fun on the street. It's also the only stock streetbike I've seen with a picture of the rider dragging his elbow on a flat surface.
Better yet, you could build them all in an engine simulator and see that they make the same hp/torque curve relationship we see between 600/1000 I4's and 1000 twins. And then toss in a 6 just because you can....
There's a 900 and 750 of the same head design as the cbx, But I'm not sure if there's a 1000.....
im curious about the crank layout though. Was it an even screamer setup or some kind of offset balance? And smiley thats how i feel about ducs lol
Rsv1000R
02-25-2009, 02:34 PM
im curious about the crank layout though. Was it an even screamer setup or some kind of offset balance? And smiley thats how i feel about ducs lol
I don't remember what Honda used on the CBX.
ill hve to see if bike bandit has a microfiche for it. Oughtta settle the question
smileyman
02-25-2009, 03:20 PM
oh Ducs and Aprilias have their place. Both fine bikes and very desirable. I just don't see any great advantage to owning either. I guess i am just turned to see bikes for what they are rather than what they mean.
For example an RSV-R means Ohlins, Marchesini, and booming torque. What they are to me are no different from other marques, an expression of freedom and pleasure. But is that name brand stuff going to give me any more of the last two? Can I get the same with OEM Kawi or Honda stuff? Will I be better off on a CBR1000?
Rsv1000R
02-25-2009, 03:35 PM
Can I get the same with OEM Kawi or Honda stuff?
You might, but it seems as though people sure do spend a lot of money adding those things to their OEM Honda's and Kawi's.
I'd rather let the factory engineers spec the upgrades, as oppose to Bubba at the local bike shop.
nhgunnut
02-26-2009, 12:26 PM
Sorry to Hi Jack First let me say Love twins and I4s , love the opposed 6 on my wing and on 4 wheels have a very special weakness for Rotarys. But could one of the engineering types explain to why a V2 seems so much mre forgiving in the twisties? This may be pure perception on my part but the twin powered sport bikes I have ridden "Feel" much easier for me to to make dance in the twisties Whether we are talking Tl100 SV1000 DL1000 RC51 Buell XB12 or my own Duc 999 all feel much easier to handle then their I4 brethren. I have been on GSXR 1000 R1's and a 1 liter Honda (can't remember the designation) They all have great Chassis and accept for the air cooled Buells have great Motors (not a hater just not my favorite) It can't be just chassis.
smileyman
02-26-2009, 12:54 PM
My theory, twins are narrower and feel "just so" when getting thru a set of bends. Also helps that you can surf the wide power band allowing you to concentrate on the corner rather than shifting and all.
Most twins have a heavier crank but the weight is distributed low and in front, giving an added feeling of stability and carvability while leaned in.
Alot of buzzy fours with the weight higher and lighter reciprocating assembly (crank, rods) spinning faster can feel flighty and nervous.:idk:
Oh and upgrades ? I have been known to want to upgrade my budget rides immediately (myself) but I have never bought a premium ride like a front line supersport and felt the need to do anything other than ride it:idk:
Rsv1000R
02-26-2009, 01:02 PM
I4's have a lot of their mass all hanging out the sides, and just like a skater, the closer your mass is tucked into the centerline the faster you spin.
Also from what I've read, the sweet spot for the crank centerline is inline with the axles, or close to it.
id imagine the motocyz would feel as good or better than most twins
Rsv1000R
02-26-2009, 01:39 PM
id imagine the motocyz would feel as good or better than most twins
Well that's the intent, But not all of the bikes where some or all of the spin was canceled out have worked well.
Actually I think the reverse rotating cranks didn't work very good, and at least some of the counter rotating crank bikes did okay.
Phenix_Rider
02-27-2009, 06:23 AM
Well that's the intent, But not all of the bikes where some or all of the spin was canceled out have worked well.
Actually I think the reverse rotating cranks didn't work very good, and at least some of the counter rotating crank bikes did okay.
As far as I remember, the MCyz has a mostly standard I4. It lies in the frame longways instead of across. Never heard of a counter- or revers- rotating crank. Spinning the engine the opposite direction wouldn't change anything except one gearset in the transmission.
BMW has some bizarre conterbalancing schemes though. The 800GS has a weird levered counterweight thing the crank forces down on the piston upstroke.
Rsv1000R
02-27-2009, 09:18 AM
As far as I remember, the MCyz has a mostly standard I4. It lies in the frame longways instead of across. Never heard of a counter- or revers- rotating crank. Spinning the engine the opposite direction wouldn't change anything except one gearset in the transmission.
BMW has some bizarre conterbalancing schemes though. The 800GS has a weird levered counterweight thing the crank forces down on the piston upstroke.
While I think it runs long ways, I think it also has 2 cranks which spin opposite ways.
As for not changing anything with the crank spinning backwards, ever pay attention to the freestyle guys, and how they use the throttle to either lift or drop the front end? The same forces happen whether the bike is in the air or on the ground.
As well as there are a number of yamaha engines that had 2 cranks, which iirc at least some of them had cranks that spin opposite each other.
marko138
02-27-2009, 02:37 PM
The square 4 engines had 2 cranks.
Rsv1000R
02-27-2009, 02:49 PM
The square 4 engines had 2 cranks.
So did the RZ V4's
While I think it runs long ways, I think it also has 2 cranks which spin opposite ways.
As for not changing anything with the crank spinning backwards, ever pay attention to the freestyle guys, and how they use the throttle to either lift or drop the front end? The same forces happen whether the bike is in the air or on the ground.
As well as there are a number of yamaha engines that had 2 cranks, which iirc at least some of them had cranks that spin opposite each other.
exactly, the cyz has counter rotating cranks. Ought to be a very neutral bike. Doubt he'll ever make them affordable though
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