First fa-22 fighters delivered to langley

[RACER X]

FIRST FA-22 FIGHTERS DELIVERED TO LANGLEY

FIRST FA-22 FIGHTERS DELIVERED

TO LANGLEY

These are Great In-flight Photos of the

F/A-22 as the first Aircraft Delivery was

being made to Langley AFB in Va.

Langley is to be first Operational AFB

for the F/A-22. It is a very beautiful AFB,

located in a picturesque location, as

you can see in these photos, near

Norfolk and Hampton , Va.

The Aircraft flying along with the

F/A-22 in the last of these photos is the

F-15, which will be replaced by the

F/A-22 which is several times better

than the F-15.

In Actual In-flight (simulated) Combat

Operations against the F-15, two F/A-22s

were able to operate without detection

while it went Head to Head against (8)

F-15s. The F/A-22s scored Missile Hits

(Kills) against all the F-15 Aircraft and

the F/A-22s were never Detected by

either the F-15s or Ground Based

Radar. Maj. Gen. Rick Lewis said: 'The

Raptor Operated Against All

Adversaries with Virtual Impunity;

Ground Based Systems Couldn't

Engage and NO Adversary Aircraft

Survived'!

F/A-22-- America 's Most Advanced

Fighter Aircraft for the 21st Century!!!!

They're a titanium and carb on fiber

dagger. They're so advanced that if

their on-board locator is switched off

even our own satellites can lose track

of them. They're the first military aircraft

ever built that is equipped with a 'black

-out button'
What that means is this ...
The best conditioned fighter pilots are

capable of maintaining consciousness

up to in the vicinity of 15+ G. The Raptor

is capable of making 22+ G turns. If

someday an adversary builds a missile

that is capable of catching up to one

of these airplanes and a Raptor pilot

sees that a strike is imminent, he hits

the 'b.o.b.' and the airplane makes a

virtual U-turn, leaving the missile to

pass right on by.

They know that in the process he'll

temporarily lose consciousness, so the

Raptor then automatically comes back

to straight and level flight until he

wakes back up.

Enjoy the Photos!

[smileyman]

BAD A$$ mofos! Thanks for the pics. As long as we have the $$ to support them these things will own the sky!

[AquaPython]

balls

[xx CURVE xx]

Supermoto of the sky :rockwoot:

[Apoc]

sweet!

[Homeslice]

nice plane.......too bad they cost $350 mil each

[pauldun170]

nice plane.......too bad they cost $350 mil each

They get that figure by dividing total program(A program that's been dragged out by over 25 years) cost by # of aircraft ordered.

The high cost is the fault of congress and the end of the cold war. That and a bit of mission creep in the program, something bound to happen when you fuck up a program over and over during the 25+ years you've had it in development.
Air Force put out requirements in 1981.

Had Ford developed a new Ford Focus under similar circumstances, it would sell for about $50 million a copy.

[Phenix_Rider]

I always laugh when people say this will replace the F14, F15, F16, F117, whatever. It will be another 10 years plus before they come out in any real numbers. The roles may overlap, but no single plane is going to be the best at everything.

[Homeslice]

They already have almost 200, none of which have actually done any service in the Middle East

USAF wants more (of course)........Gates will probably say no (smart move)

[pauldun170]

I always laugh when people say this will replace the F14, F15, F16, F117, whatever. It will be another 10 years plus before they come out in any real numbers. The roles may overlap, but no single plane is going to be the best at everything.


It will only replace a % of the F-15 fleet...bout time considered the airframes on the C models have been worn out for years.

F-14 has already been replaced by the SuperHornet (kinda...) F-16 and F-117 are being replaced by the F-35 (and armed drones).

[Dave]

nice to see them finally showing up, though i doubt they will enjoy quite the dominance the AF expects. and i REALLY doubt that that sortie was done on any kind of level terms. count on murphy

[Smittie61984]

They are made here in Atlant and have seen them in action. They own F16s all day and all night. Fucking badass!!!

[smileyman]

Beyond Visual Range kills have become so last decade. The F22s stealth will be able to evade that capability and so will whatever the Russkies have cobbled together to counter it. So perhaps you have the makings of a real dogfight in the near future.:idk:

[Dave]

They are made here in Atlant and have seen them in action. They own F16s all day and all night. Fucking badass!!!

thats no great accomplishment. F20s owned F16s all day and night too and it was just an F5 with a better engine and updated electronics

Beyond Visual Range kills have become so last decade. The F22s stealth will be able to evade that capability and so will whatever the Russkies have cobbled together to counter it. So perhaps you have the makings of a real dogfight in the near future.:idk:

assuming things do come back to visual/gun range dogfighting, the raptor is likely to come up a little short. the su-37 terminator features 3D vectoring nozzles and forward canards. can operate from unimproved surfaces and costs less.

[Dave]

They are made here in Atlant and have seen them in action. They own F16s all day and all night. Fucking badass!!!

thats no great accomplishment. F20s owned F16s all day and night too and it was just an F5 with a better engine and updated electronics

thats one of the very few decisions that regan made that i wholeheartedly object to

Beyond Visual Range kills have become so last decade. The F22s stealth will be able to evade that capability and so will whatever the Russkies have cobbled together to counter it. So perhaps you have the makings of a real dogfight in the near future.:idk:

assuming things do come back to visual/gun range dogfighting, the raptor is likely to come up a little short. the su-37 terminator features 3D vectoring nozzles and forward canards. can operate from unimproved surfaces and costs less.

[smileyman]

Yeah but the Sukhoi is piloted by Russkies. I gots faith in our training.

Besides I don't think the Su37 is nearly as advanced...

[Dave]

Yeah but the Sukhoi is piloted by Russkies. I gots faith in our training.

Besides I don't think the Su37 is nearly as advanced...

russkies, or the chinese.

not everywhere but it does have the edge in a few spots. but now that you mention it perhaps a better match would be the mig 1.44 or the su-47 berkut?

[Adeptus_Minor]

Is it possible to make a plane "too good"?

[Corey]

Man, I lived at Edwards AFB right after they finished the first bits of flight testing on the F-22 (and right after one of them crashed coming in to land). It's a sweet plane, but they had the YF-23 sitting within view right off the flight line and that thing was pure sex in airplane form. I spent many hours staring at that thing. Wish I coulda seen it fly. The F-22 may have certain attributes that made it the victor, but the YF-23 was a way better looking plane.

[ericr]

The F-22 has actually been operational for about 4-5 yrs. I used to watch them test fly them off the Dobbins runway every time they rolled one out the back door of Lockheed. I was a civilian contractor at Dobbins from 00-04 while I was also in the AF Reserves there from 99-07. I want to say the first planes were delivered in 02 or 03 but I could be wrong.

The cost escalates every time congress cuts back on the order. The same dollars are spent in development to make 2 as 2000. The actual parts are cheap compared to the development costs so yeah, the price per plane is going up with every order cut.

They are one superbad plane fo sho!! :dthumb:

[Cutty72]

I want one.

[Smittie61984]

thats no great accomplishment. F20s owned F16s all day and night too and it was just an F5 with a better engine and updated electronics


I didn't think F20s were ever put into production. And the F5s I don't believe had the top speed of the F22 or the F16. Maybe like comparing a Lotus Elise to a Diablo. Lotus elise handles better cause of size but the Diablo is better all around. If that makes sense.

I just remember seeing a F22 chase a F16 one day at work and the F16 left contrails to have the F22 come from behind and basically pass it on the inside without even cutting it off on the exit.

[Racerboy]

I always laugh when people say this will replace the F14, F15, F16, F117, whatever. It will be another 10 years plus before they come out in any real numbers. The roles may overlap, but no single plane is going to be the best at everything.

Very close.....Probably more than 10 years. Here is the breakdown of the others it could be replacing and not all too soon.

F14 TomCat 1974 - 2006
F15 Eagle 1972 - 2025 (estimated retirement date)
F16 Falcon 1976 - 2025 (Est like above)
FA18 Hornet 1983 - Unknown Termination Date at this time

[pauldun170]

I didn't think F20s were ever put into production. And the F5s I don't believe had the top speed of the F22 or the F16. Maybe like comparing a Lotus Elise to a Diablo. Lotus elise handles better cause of size but the Diablo is better all around. If that makes sense.

I just remember seeing a F22 chase a F16 one day at work and the F16 left contrails to have the F22 come from behind and basically pass it on the inside without even cutting it off on the exit.


The F-20 Tigershark was not competitive with the F-16 and more importantly the airframe had limited potential for growth. F-16 is the better airplane and the better buy (even though the first blocks kinda sucked)

[Dave]

Man, I lived at Edwards AFB right after they finished the first bits of flight testing on the F-22 (and right after one of them crashed coming in to land). It's a sweet plane, but they had the YF-23 sitting within view right off the flight line and that thing was pure sex in airplane form. I spent many hours staring at that thing. Wish I coulda seen it fly. The F-22 may have certain attributes that made it the victor, but the YF-23 was a way better looking plane.

agreed, the black widow II was one of the sexiest planes ever to roll out of northrop. and unfortunately followed in their tradition of getting screwed on contracts. ol' jack never did make friends in washington

I didn't think F20s were ever put into production. And the F5s I don't believe had the top speed of the F22 or the F16. Maybe like comparing a Lotus Elise to a Diablo. Lotus elise handles better cause of size but the Diablo is better all around. If that makes sense.

I just remember seeing a F22 chase a F16 one day at work and the F16 left contrails to have the F22 come from behind and basically pass it on the inside without even cutting it off on the exit.

the twenties never did. northrop presented it as an F16 alternative after the A and B models started losing wings in high G maneuvers. in testing it proved slightly superior in air to air (even killed two of its test pilots due to excessive g force alone) but couldnt carry as much in the ground role (though it carried aim-7s before the 16 could do the same)

interestingly enough, the iranians reverse engineered the old F5s they had left over from the days of the shah and started building a home grown version thats a cross between the F20 and nothrop/grumman's similar yf-17 cobra. they call it azerkesh

[Dave]

The F-20 Tigershark was not competitive with the F-16 and more importantly the airframe had limited potential for growth. F-16 is the better airplane and the better buy (even though the first blocks kinda sucked)

compared to Cs no, compared to the failure prone As and Bs yes. and at half the price id argue strongly with your final statement

[pauldun170]

Very close.....Probably more than 10 years. Here is the breakdown of the others it could be replacing and not all too soon.

F14 TomCat 1974 - 2006
F15 Eagle 1972 - 2025 (estimated retirement date)
F16 Falcon 1976 - 2025 (Est like above)
FA18 Hornet 1983 - Unknown Termination Date at this time

Cheney, under Bush Sr killed the Tomcat(or to be more specific the Tomcat upgrade program) back in the 80's in favor of the SuperHornet. It took awhile for the Superhornet to come online and the F-14 to be phased out. The Superhornet is not a direct replacement of the F-14 because they have different mission profiles.
There has NEVER been any serious consideration for a navalized FA\22.

The FA18 will be replaced by the F-35.

The FA\22 will be replacing the F-15c(air superiority). The F-15E will live on.

In summary the FA\22 will replace the worn out c models of the F-15. It is unlikely that they will replace the F-15E. That bird will fly for many more years and be enhanced by armed RPV and drones.

It's likely mission for the next 25 years is to fly exercises and maybe a cap over an piece of dirt where lower end aircraft did all the dirty work.

By the time it actually sees use justifying the cost it will likely be against a superior aircraft flown by poorly trained pilots.

[pauldun170]

compared to Cs no, compared to the failure prone As and Bs yes. and at half the price id argue strongly with your final statement

Sorry but when it came to avionics...the F-20 was always playing catch-up and when it came to payload it fails compared to the f-16.

More power and nicer avionics still can't overcome a limited (and wee) airframe. Especially now with going on 30+ years of service..the F-16 has proved itself to be the better choice. F-20 would not have been able to match what the F-16 airframe has accomplished.

It could be a snappy little dogfighter in a clean configuration but a combat aircraft needs to actually carry stuff and find targets to lob that stuff at.

[Dave]

well it was a helluva lot sexier looking :P

[BICH]

Aaaahhhhh its ok:drool:

[Adeptus_Minor]

agreed, the black widow II was one of the sexiest planes ever to roll out of northrop. and unfortunately followed in their tradition of getting screwed on contracts. ol' jack never did make friends in washington



I was a fan of the original Black Widow, myself :dthumb:

[Phenix_Rider]

Cheney, under Bush Sr killed the Tomcat(or to be more specific the Tomcat upgrade program) back in the 80's in favor of the SuperHornet. It took awhile for the Superhornet to come online and the F-14 to be phased out. The Superhornet is not a direct replacement of the F-14 because they have different mission profiles.
There has NEVER been any serious consideration for a navalized FA\22.

The FA18 will be replaced by the F-35.

The FA\22 will be replacing the F-15c(air superiority). The F-15E will live on.

In summary the FA\22 will replace the worn out c models of the F-15. It is unlikely that they will replace the F-15E. That bird will fly for many more years and be enhanced by armed RPV and drones.

It's likely mission for the next 25 years is to fly exercises and maybe a cap over an piece of dirt where lower end aircraft did all the dirty work.

By the time it actually sees use justifying the cost it will likely be against a superior aircraft flown by poorly trained pilots.
Enhanced/supplemented is right. It's funny how each new concept is sold as replacing so many other less expensive, but proven effective programs. The F-35/JSF is actually behind a few of the fighters listed technologically. It's nozzle only rotates down, where at least one of the Russian fighters have true thrust vectoring in any direction.

As for "poorly trained pilots," you never know. A lot of foreign nationals are here, in US colleges and flight schools. China, India, and Japan all have working space programs. If/When our shuttle fleet is decommissioned, one of them could take over the lead in space flight. Japan could easily kick ass in space and most other circles if they had the material resources and physical room. They certainly have the capital and brain power. The others would have to get their shit together first.

It will only replace a % of the F-15 fleet...bout time considered the airframes on the C models have been worn out for years.

F-14 has already been replaced by the SuperHornet (kinda...) F-16 and F-117 are being replaced by the F-35 (and armed drones).
UCAVs aren't the be-all end-all either. If you want a worst-case, cheasy sci-fi take, watch Stealth. Jessica Beal :drool:

[Lamnidae]

agreed, the black widow II was one of the sexiest planes ever to roll out of northrop. and unfortunately followed in their tradition of getting screwed on contracts. ol' jack never did make friends in washington

<~~~~ works for N.G.


Great company actually. They've got so many other successes too, like the Predators and my personal favorite, the Global Hawk. Their shipbuilding stuff is awesome too. They're doing the George H.W. Bush and the latest batch of Virginia Class attack subs.

[Lamnidae]

E.... The F-35/JSF is actually behind a few of the fighters listed technologically. It's nozzle only rotates down, where at least one of the Russian fighters have true thrust vectoring in any direction.

.... If/When our shuttle fleet is decommissioned, one of them could take over the lead in space flight. Japan could easily kick ass in space and most other circles if they had the material resources and physical room. They certainly have the capital and brain power. The others would have to get their shit together first.


UCAVs aren't the be-all end-all either. If you want a worst-case, cheasy sci-fi take, watch Stealth. Jessica Beal :drool:

IIRC the SU-47 and the Mig29OVT (I think redesignated MIG-35) were the only ones w/ pitch and yaw T/V... their not in full production yet either I think. I think it'd be interesting to see a Raptor up against one of those two.... I personally was a fan of the X-31.... that would have made a SWEEEEET light attack interceptor.


and when our shuttle fleet is decomissioned, they will take us over. It'll be a several year gap between the shuttle being mothballed and this new Ares bullshit (I'm calling bullshit, it's like we're taking a step back).



I agree, UCAV's aren't the end-all be all.... But they're definitely here to stay. Their ability to loiter over an area to provide watch/support is hard to match and much more economical than a dedicated satellite. Wish they would have continued w/ the X-45 Bird of Prey project.

[pauldun170]

Enhanced/supplemented is right. It's funny how each new concept is sold as replacing so many other less expensive, but proven effective programs. The F-35/JSF is actually behind a few of the fighters listed technologically. It's nozzle only rotates down, where at least one of the Russian fighters have true thrust vectoring in any direction.


Huh?
the only F-35 model that has "thrust vectoring" is the B model, the vtol variant that the brits and Marines want. Thats only for takeoff and landing.
Standard F-35A and c do not have thrust vectoring.

I'm guess you are talking about the F22 when it comes to Vectoring.
Doesn't need it (3d as opposed to 2d), not worth the cost.

Certain Variants of the Mig29 and Su27 family have it.
Su27 with combat load ain't doing much of anything...vectored thrust or not.

[Dave]

I was a fan of the original Black Widow, myself :dthumb:

wierd looking sucker, but then again most of the early radar carriers were.

Enhanced/supplemented is right. It's funny how each new concept is sold as replacing so many other less expensive, but proven effective programs. The F-35/JSF is actually behind a few of the fighters listed technologically. It's nozzle only rotates down, where at least one of the Russian fighters have true thrust vectoring in any direction.

As for "poorly trained pilots," you never know. A lot of foreign nationals are here, in US colleges and flight schools. China, India, and Japan all have working space programs. If/When our shuttle fleet is decommissioned, one of them could take over the lead in space flight. Japan could easily kick ass in space and most other circles if they had the material resources and physical room. They certainly have the capital and brain power. The others would have to get their shit together first.


UCAVs aren't the be-all end-all either. If you want a worst-case, cheasy sci-fi take, watch Stealth. Jessica Beal :drool:

you are talking about the marine B varient. which does not have thrust vectoring except for vertical landings and take offs. actually a copy of the lift system designed by yakovlev and used on their 38 forger, and the 141 freestyle

Huh?
the only F-35 model that has "thrust vectoring" is the B model, the vtol variant that the brits and Marines want. Thats only for takeoff and landing.
Standard F-35A and c do not have thrust vectoring.

I'm guess you are talking about the F22 when it comes to Vectoring.
Doesn't need it (3d as opposed to 2d), not worth the cost.

Certain Variants of the Mig29 and Su27 family have it.
Su27 with combat load ain't doing much of anything...vectored thrust or not.

22s have 2d. the big question is whether the 22s nozzles have all the capabilities of the F15 S/MTD. or more specifically are they capable of in flight thrust reversal.

[smileyman]

I'll take this with a side of Jessica Biel! :drool:
Leaves on your canopy and 30 mike mike up someones arse!
Semper Fi, Carry on!

[RACER X]

luv the A-10

[pauldun170]

I'll take this with a side of Jessica Biel! :drool:
Leaves on your canopy and 30 mike mike up someones arse!
Semper Fi, Carry on!

One of the best purchases\values ever....

Always love it when some jerkoff talks of mothballin em and replacing them with (insert hot light fighter of the day)

[Dave]

One of the best purchases\values ever....

Always love it when some jerkoff talks of mothballin em and replacing them with (insert hot light fighter of the day)

like the f35 :lol: def agree though. Hell i think we still ought to have coin aircraft. Some ov10s would have been extremely usefull in iraq compared to the never gonna get it f16 support

[pauldun170]

like the f35 :lol: def agree though. Hell i think we still ought to have coin aircraft. Some ov10s would have been extremely usefull in iraq compared to the never gonna get it f16 support

BRONCO!!

That thing was cool...payload...carry a couple of folks...
In today's environment, it's survivability may not be the best. Not enough to justify the cost of modernizing it.

However, I think it's cool looking. Makes me want to go to the hobby shop and pick up a few kits.

[Dave]

i saw it as a modern day skyraider. And the later models with the chin guns would have been especially handy. Quite a few of them were already modernised for atf use in the nineties and probably could have been fielded with minor updates. Probably get away with putting them under army aviation since they already have fixed wing craft with the shorts and the AF hates coins

[Dave]

ever heard of the super tucano?

[pauldun170]

ever heard of the super tucano?

Brazilians. and there cute little wee plane.

Call me an asshole...but I think it looks like deadmeat out side of it natural habitat of jungle and mountain.

[Adeptus_Minor]

Brazilians. and there cute little wee plane.

Call me an asshole...but I think it looks like deadmeat out side of it natural habitat of jungle and mountain.

Looks like P-51 envy to me.

[pauldun170]

I keep forgetting that Embraer is Brazilian. That and Brazil has a fucking aircraft carrier stocked with scooters.

[smileyman]

Tucano? Isn't that a type of potted meat?

[Corey]

Looks like cannon fodder to me.

[Dave]

Brazilians. and there cute little wee plane.

Call me an asshole...but I think it looks like deadmeat out side of it natural habitat of jungle and mountain.

prop planes have overcome jets in the past. obviously in ww2 and skyraiders (which have almost no air to air capability) have dropped migs in vietnam. And none of those carried aim9s :2cents:

[Adeptus_Minor]

prop planes have overcome jets in the past. obviously in ww2 and skyraiders (which have almost no air to air capability) have dropped migs in vietnam. And none of those carried aim9s :2cents:

Lock two guys in a phone booth, one with a snub .38 and the other with a M249, and see which one gets the kill shot.

[smileyman]

The SBD 2 divebomber bagged Mits. Zeros in WW2 despite the formers agility and almost 100 mph advantage...I think alot of that has to do with motivation. However we have come along way baby!

[Dave]

Lock two guys in a phone booth, one with a snub .38 and the other with a M249, and see which one gets the kill shot.

duh, mr saturday night special is winning there. Saw is too long to get an effective angle in that space. Gimmie a harder one :lol:

[smileyman]

duh, mr saturday night special is winning there. Saw is too long to get an effective angle in that space. Gimmie a harder one :lol:

Don't try and turn with a zero, don't try and outclimb a P47, never get into a phone booth with a cage fighter (or Taters Whore of an Ex-wife).

There are strengths and weaknesses to every type and make, so a good fighter just has to use his advantages while preying on the opponents weeknesses. Combat intelligence is vital and usually very costly to come by...

[pauldun170]

Don't try and turn with a zero, don't try and outclimb a P47, never get into a phone booth with a cage fighter (or Taters Whore of an Ex-wife).

There are strengths and weaknesses to every type and make, so a good fighter just has to use his advantages while preying on the opponents weeknesses. Combat intelligence is vital and usually very costly to come by...

Yup...

Take the Zero for example. Outstanding Range, Great maneuverability at low speed, great climb rate. Mediocre maneuverability at high speed, lack of self sealing tanks, weak airframe and Japan pilot rotation policy (or lack thereof). Zero sucked after 42 compared to contemporaries

P-47...High altitude king...low altitude bullet absorber.

F-16 will kick an F-15 ass in one envelope, F-15 will kick an F-16 ass in another.

F\A-18 can surprise em both in the righ conditions and go by by the next.

If you see a cage fighter in a phone booth, run the phone booth over with a garbage truck.

[smileyman]

:rofl:Garbage truck FTW! :dthumb:

[Dave]

Since we're talkin imperial japan here for a bit the shinden would have be a bad motha fuka if they had a chance to develop it some. Hoping the friggin smithsonian puts their on display soon

[smileyman]

Since we're talkin imperial japan here for a bit the shinden would have be a bad motha fuka if they had a chance to develop it some. Hoping the friggin smithsonian puts their on display soon

I think it woulda been a bad mother with just experienced pilots. Too bad we had Japan by the jugular by then and were already bombing the industrial complex.

Saburo Sakai mentioned that plane in his biography "Zero" by Martin Caidin. Good read if you like WW2 aviation. I have also read his "Fork Tailed Devil" about the P38 from development to service. Good stuff.

[Dave]

nice. There used to be a clip of one of its only test flights on youtube

[pauldun170]

I think it woulda been a bad mother with just experienced pilots. Too bad we had Japan by the jugular by then and were already bombing the industrial complex.



They would have required experience pilots (oops Japan let all their experienced officers die in the field without transferring the knowledge gained to new pilots..scratch that idea)
Quality manufacturing (oops scratch that)
Quality support system (and how many serviceable aircraft languished on Japanese airbases because support crews couldn't manage decent field repair?)

Japan lacked 2 key elements from midwar on...good pilots and good crews to support the AC.

Even if we were at stalemate at the time of the Shinden, Japan doomed itself from the start in terms of command and control and the way their forces were structured.

[smileyman]

I for one am especially proud that they never worked out a proper pilot rotation. The air war over the pacific was bloody beyond brutal (like it wasn't anywhere else) but I would have hated to give up any advantage that would have cost either side more lives.

I suppose that is my appreciation of the pilots that flew these missions on both sides and in every war. Pilots first, brave duty bound fellows, they did their part and ask no quarter. Could we aspire to such a lofty virtue?

[Lamnidae]

....I have also read his "Fork Tailed Devil" about the P38 from development to service. Good stuff.

Was just catching up, saw all this stuff rolling back to Dub Dub Deuce and was like "WTF? P47's and P51's and what not, WTF where's hte P-38!"


God they had some good times in the P-38. My personal fav of WWII.

http://military.discovery.com/tv/showdown/wallpaper/images/p-38-lighting-showdown-air-combat-1280.jpg

[Corey]

Was just catching up, saw all this stuff rolling back to Dub Dub Deuce and was like "WTF? P47's and P51's and what not, WTF where's hte P-38!"


God they had some good times in the P-38. My personal fav of WWII.

http://military.discovery.com/tv/showdown/wallpaper/images/p-38-lighting-showdown-air-combat-1280.jpg

That's a hell of a sweet shot. If you've got it in a massive 1900x1200 size, that'd be my new wallpaper.

[Dave]

Was just catching up, saw all this stuff rolling back to Dub Dub Deuce and was like "WTF? P47's and P51's and what not, WTF where's hte P-38!"


God they had some good times in the P-38. My personal fav of WWII.

http://military.discovery.com/tv/showdown/wallpaper/images/p-38-lighting-showdown-air-combat-1280.jpg

the lightning was a sweet plane no doubt but whats up with the yoke? Stick please. Reminds me of the wierd ass stick on the F106 delta dart. My number two favorite plane from the century series in its ''six shooter'' configuration

[Adeptus_Minor]

I really enjoyed the episode of 'Dogfights!' that highlighted the P-38.
If I recall correctly, the pilot said that once you learned to reign in all the power, it made you feel invincible. :devil:

Two of us? 12 of them? No problem. :rockout:

[Dave]

The SBD 2 divebomber bagged Mits. Zeros in WW2 despite the formers agility and almost 100 mph advantage...I think alot of that has to do with motivation. However we have come along way baby!

one of my great grands flew an SE5a either late or post WW1. wish i could have asked him about it

[smileyman]

one of my great grands flew an SE5a either late or post WW1. wish i could have asked him about it

Wish I coulda been there with him!

[the chi]

My grandpa flew a P38 lightning in the war, damn he has some great stories.

Somewhere I have a picture of him, standing on his plane about to get in, one of those old time shots, its awesome.

[smileyman]

I knew you came from good stock...

[the chi]

I knew you came from good stock...

The best!! A lil this, a lil that, all american heinz 57!!

At one time I had his flight school yearbook, which was really an awesome time capsule, he was Army Air Corp before it became the air force, a pilot, and a test engineer, and was still a driving force behind much of the technical specs and manuals through the 80's at Tinker AFB...

[Papa_Complex]

My grandfather drove a jeep in WWII..... and got lost in France. Why didn't I get a cool pilot grandfather?:rant:

[Adeptus_Minor]

My grandfather drove a jeep in WWII..... and got lost in France. Why didn't I get a cool pilot grandfather?:rant:

Right!

One of mine was a sailor in WWII and the other was a grunt in Korea.
Luckily I still have both of them and I've gotten to hear some good stories. :dthumb:

[the chi]

My grandfather drove a jeep in WWII..... and got lost in France. Why didn't I get a cool pilot grandfather?:rant:

Right!

One of mine was a sailor in WWII and the other was a grunt in Korea.
Luckily I still have both of them and I've gotten to hear some good stories. :dthumb:

:lol: If it makes you feel better, all of my uncles were army grunts. One was a tank driver, who got lost in germany and almost froze to death, then was written up for allowing locals to save him and his crew. One was a medic with a lust for violence, not sure how he ended up trying to HELP people, and the other has since retired from being an Army Ranger and a few other things (and is subsequently a nut, who still has so many things he cant talk about its almost hard to talk to the man!) Also my fave uncle. Gave my first hubby a bullet with his name (literally) on it for a wedding present.

[Dave]

haha i love it (the bullet thing)

[the chi]

haha i love it (the bullet thing)

Even let him hold the rifle with the ginormous scope that he'd be shooting it from. heh heh heh.

[smileyman]

My Grampa was 2nd Divison "Hell on Wheels" Armored Infantry. He had some stories to tell. Sicily, up the boot of Italy, weeks with nothing but water and cheese (his constipation story was epic), Finding out he had a son while in a fox hole halfway across the world. He had been a dad all of two weeks and didn't know it. All the way across the Rhine before a female sniper removed his kneecap from a distance. Morphine laced Halftrack ride to freedom, hospiced in England and sent home broke after losing his but in NY. Whatta ride that musta been.

:cheers::pat: To all who serve!

Back on topic CNN has done an invesitagive story and has decided in its wisdom that the F22 isn't worth the $$ in this eeconomy and that Barack needs to cancel the program, send 36-40000 Northrop employees out of work and reapply those 3-6 Billion in funds as a bandaid for some stimulous. Perhaps to keep GM or Chrysler paying their bills for another 3 months. :panic:

Thank God the media are so smart.

[the chi]

My Grampa was 2nd Divison "Hell on Wheels" Armored Infantry. He had some stories to tell. Sicily, up the boot of Italy, weeks with nothing but water and cheese (his constipation story was epic), Finding out he had a son while in a fox hole halfway across the world. He had been a dad all of two weeks and didn't know it. All the way across the Rhine before a female sniper removed his kneecap from a distance. Morphine laced Halftrack ride to freedom, hospiced in England and sent home broke after losing his but in NY. Whatta ride that musta been.

:cheers::pat: To all who serve!

Back on topic CNN has done an invesitagive story and has decided in its wisdom that the F22 isn't worth the $$ in this eeconomy and that Barack needs to cancel the program, send 36-40000 Northrop employees out of work and reapply those 3-6 Billion in funds as a bandaid for some stimulous. Perhaps to keep GM or Chrysler paying their bills for another 3 months. :panic:

Thank God the media are so smart.

I couldnt have said it better. Jeebus, sometimes you just want to beat people.

Here's a tidbit for the F35 followers...they are slated to head over to this area (Eglin AFB). This area was BUILT around the AF bases (Eglin, Hurlburt, Tyndall), which were here well before the local economy and most of the land here is owned by the govt. A local "town" principality has brought a lawsuit against the AF and Eglin to halt the incoming F35's because they will be "too noisy". Same people who complained about the the old helicopters, F15's and C130's.

Here's a thought. If you dont want to listen to the MILITARY PLANES, and you live in a MILITARY owned area, MOVE THE FUCK OUT.

Makes ya wanna punch babies, huh?!

[smileyman]

How about when their kids are pinned down in some God forsaken province in Afghanistan, surrounded by RPGs?? Do you think they would ask for an F35 intervention??

No one said you had to live their folks. Me I would welcome it, pull out the lawn chair, pop a brew, and enjoy the show:whistle:

[Papa_Complex]

At least it's only the media saying this. For years (back in the '90s) our military had been saying that our helicopters were knackered and about ready to fall out of the sky. The order was put in for new helicopters, then was cancelled when a new government was elected, because they said that they were too expensive.

They ended up paying cancellation charges and then for the helicopters, when it was discovered that they really WERE needed :whistle:

[the chi]

Its actually pretty cool living here, but its an accepted part of life for those of us with common sense that we have to listen to fighter jets and bombers and whatever else happens to drop by. Back when they tested the MOAB a few years ago people were all up in arms, but I thought it was nifty. And all those nights when the helicopters rattled my windows, well, its just part of life here. Dumbasses.

PC, thats priceless. And we pay people to be in office to be stupidly retarded. What are we thinking?

[Adeptus_Minor]

Here's a thought. If you dont want to listen to the MILITARY PLANES, and you live in a MILITARY owned area, MOVE THE FUCK OUT.

Makes ya wanna punch babies, huh?!

Call me crazy, but I'd take the sexy sounds of high powered aircraft any day to the normal sounds of traffic, lawn equipment, etc.

[Homeslice]

Back on topic CNN has done an invesitagive story and has decided in its wisdom that the F22 isn't worth the $$ in this eeconomy and that Barack needs to cancel the program, send 36-40000 Northrop employees out of work and reapply those 3-6 Billion in funds as a bandaid for some stimulous. Perhaps to keep GM or Chrysler paying their bills for another 3 months. :panic:
.

Well even Gates thinks we don't need any more F22's. That tells you something.

[the chi]

Well even Gates thinks we don't need any more F22's. That tells you something.


FTR-if you work with the current crop of say F15's and even the C130s (which pretty much everyone I know does) these planes are so old and basically patched together that its a miracle they are still flying. Everytime they go out, they break. Some have had so many different things worked on, no one knows what components are good and what arent, so they just leave all the old shit in, safer than removing something that would for certain cause other issues. And as far as repairs, Id say its a safe bet they spend moe money on repairs to the same old shit than it would cost us to get new good shit on our flight lines.

Id rather see newer planes and technology protect me and our country than the same old shit thats outta commision most of the time. :idk:

[pauldun170]

The point of weapon system procurement is not to keep businesses afloat or to provide jobs.

That being said, the F-35 despite cost overuns and contractor nonsense is a solid program and many of our allies are patiently waiting for delivery. I'm not a big fan of the 'b' version though.

The F-22...the decision should have been made back in Bush Sr days. We could have either put a real commitment to the program based on the realities of the Soviets going away or explored alternative stop gap measures to reasses. Whether that means partnering up Eurofighter program and dealing with the range limitations of that airframe or saying screw up SuperHornets to fill in the gaps of an aging F-15c fleet.....

At this point, despite what I feel is a great plane for the wrong time...it's finally ready to go. The time to cancel was last fucking century. It's done we're facing a situation where our current stock of F-15c and e's for that matter or wearing out....It would be cheaper in the long run to just make an aquisition of 350 FA\22's vs tossing all that development time and money out the window after the project is already finished only to have to spend billions more to start either a new systems procurement in 10 years.

If there is money to be saved look at our force structure, our doctrine and other programs in incubation. We can reduce the size of the Navy a tiny bit since the government forgot what to do with carriers and the Navy overall. We can open up requests to foreign competitors (and uncouple defence industry lobbyists from senators cocks and vaginas)

Protectionism in defence procurement and keeping programs open because it "keeps jobs in my district" has wasted more money than any benefit realized.


As much as missile defence sucks up $$$...we can't drop it as it's actually something we need. There is value their as long as we keep the cocksucking out of it

[pauldun170]

FTR-if you work with the current crop of say F15's and even the C130s (which pretty much everyone I know does) these planes are so old and basically patched together that its a miracle they are still flying. Everytime they go out, they break. Some have had so many different things worked on, no one knows what components are good and what arent, so they just leave all the old shit in, safer than removing something that would for certain cause other issues. And as far as repairs, Id say its a safe bet they spend moe money on repairs to the same old shit than it would cost us to get new good shit on our flight lines.

Id rather see newer planes and technology protect me and our country than the same old shit thats outta commision most of the time. :idk:

The F-15E's should still be in decent enough shape despite all the hours being put on the airframes. The C's...I wonder if the restrictions are still up on em.

C130 FTW!!! and the duct tape....and the bugee cord....I think the markets where the build it under license have better C130's (as in airworthy) than we do. Ours are stuffed with cooler toys though from time to time.

[the chi]

The F-15E's should still be in decent enough shape despite all the hours being put on the airframes. The C's...I wonder if the restrictions are still up on em.

C130 FTW!!! and the duct tape....and the bugee cord....I think the markets where the build it under license have better C130's (as in airworthy) than we do. Ours are stuffed with cooler toys though from time to time.

Im not certain the a-e planes all my people work on, but I do know that they are constantly being worked on. Cracks on the exterior (wings, tails, etc), wiring and electrical issues, pilot abuse all = very expensive patch jobs to revisit the next time it comes back in from a flight...

The 130's while awesome, are so old and have so much spare crap, they really are afraid to touch the old stuff and instead just add new everytime they put in new things! :lol: But they do get some cool jobs and are awesome planes, but so much in need of upgrades or complete makeovers its sad.

Embarassing that our guys are basically flying around in airplane equivalent of hoopties, regardless of the type of plane really.

And for someone to think we dont need good stuff to protect ourselves and woud rather waste money on stupid shit, like that "arts" thing, well, damn, I kinda like the thought of our military being ready and prepared, not like some foreign militaries that have no defense cuz all their shit's old and broken. (that they bought from us! :lol:)

*edit* That said, I do realize that the govt in the pockets of some of these contractors supplying our equipment is costing us exorbitantly higher prices than we should be seeing, but thats a whole other issue. Bureaucracy, Blech.

[smileyman]

At least with defense contracts the money stays here in the USA. Hate to think we would farm out defense to the Koreans, Pakistanis, or Indians :panic:

[Dave]

At least with defense contracts the money stays here in the USA. Hate to think we would farm out defense to the Koreans, Pakistanis, or Indians :panic:

[devil's advocate] some of those guys build good shit though. ever heard of a ching kuo?

[Adeptus_Minor]

ever heard of a ching kuo?


Oh yeah.. that stuff is good on dae-ji bul-go-gi

[smileyman]

[devil's advocate] some of those guys build good shit though. ever heard of a ching kuo?

No, astonish me...:idk:

[Dave]

No, astonish me...:idk:

taiwan decided to build its own fighter when their tigershark order went south. mostly serves with the republic of china airforce.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/100B2033.JPG

[Corey]

taiwan decided to build its own fighter when their tigershark order went south. mostly serves with the republic of china airforce.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/100B2033.JPG

Interesting. The nose looks kinda Sukoy-ish. What's the performance equivalent? F-16? F-18? F-4? :lol:

[Adeptus_Minor]

Almost looks like it splits the different between an F18 and a Sukhoi

[pauldun170]

taiwan decided to build its own fighter when their tigershark order went south. mostly serves with the republic of china airforce.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/100B2033.JPG

That thing is tiny....BUT it works for Taiwan. Unit Costs aren't as horrendous as they could have been.

[Phenix_Rider]

The F-15E's should still be in decent enough shape despite all the hours being put on the airframes. The C's...I wonder if the restrictions are still up on em.

C130 FTW!!! and the duct tape....and the bugee cord....I think the markets where the build it under license have better C130's (as in airworthy) than we do. Ours are stuffed with cooler toys though from time to time.

There are new C130 models coming out all the time. The J came out a couple years back with more efficient engines, newer electronics, more cargo capacity, etc. And some of the older ones have ridiculously cool stuff in the back. My dad worked on EC130s way back. A favorite story deals with accidentally jamming some TV stations :whistle: No bungee cords or duct tape involved. Getting the right parts at the right time they had trouble with, mostly because some moron felt he had to protect his turf instead of doing his job.

Defense contracts should absolutely stay in the US. Does anyone think North Korea or Vietnam or China should be making parts for our equipment? The political infighting about who's district gets the contract is bullshit though. It costs more money than actually producing, utilizing, and maintaining. Look at NASA- you got electronics being built in one part of the country, airframes in another, engines somewhere else, assembly somewhere else, and launch/recovery in three other places. All because some bureaucrat had to pork his area.

[Papa_Complex]

That Taiwanese fighter reminds me of a cross between a Dassault Rafale and a F-16.

[pauldun170]

There are new C130 models coming out all the time. The J came out a couple years back with more efficient engines, newer electronics, more cargo capacity, etc. And some of the older ones have ridiculously cool stuff in the back. My dad worked on EC130s way back. A favorite story deals with accidentally jamming some TV stations :whistle: No bungee cords or duct tape involved. Getting the right parts at the right time they had trouble with, mostly because some moron felt he had to protect his turf instead of doing his job.

Defense contracts should absolutely stay in the US. Does anyone think North Korea or Vietnam or China should be making parts for our equipment? The political infighting about who's district gets the contract is bullshit though. It costs more money than actually producing, utilizing, and maintaining. Look at NASA- you got electronics being built in one part of the country, airframes in another, engines somewhere else, assembly somewhere else, and launch/recovery in three other places. All because some bureaucrat had to pork his area.

How many of the new C130's are going to the US military and not to foreign buyers?

As for joint development or competitive contracts (Why develop and buy a US made helicopter or light vehicle if foreign companies offer an existing or superior product) any of our Nato partners or other "pact" countries should be considered.
After that...licenced production of components by American company for a foreign design is a solution to the "jobs and availabilty" problem.

[smileyman]

Industrius little Tiawanese! Looks like they were smart enough not to try and reinvent the wheel and went with proven concepts from alot of different established fighters. Cuts out a huge chunk of the R&D budget. Still not something I want to be riding in when a Raptor comes calling!

[pauldun170]

Industrius little Tiawanese! Looks like they were smart enough not to try and reinvent the wheel and went with proven concepts from alot of different established fighters. Cuts out a huge chunk of the R&D budget. Still not something I want to be riding in when a Raptor comes calling!

Cuteness factor = CHECK
Engine performance = huh? wad dat?
Radar = Let's just say...we have a very close relationship with ground control and awacs. Not the worst but...it's appropriate for the class.
Flight performance = as long as it doesn't involve climbing to altitude it rocks!!
Armament = ok mix for what it's intended to do.


I think the goal, at least in the air superiority arena is to avoid China' s AAM by confusing them with it's size and cuteness (missile get's close to the ching kuo and goes "awe!! how cute.....damn where it go?)

Then...when China's comparatively massive Su-27,33 etc etc roll up to pull a Han Solo maneuver ...
the ching kuo will expertly tuck itself between the nacelles of the Chinese fighter, the pilot will use suction cups and make his way towards the intake and then throw old Timex watches in to the engines.

[smileyman]

:zowned::lmao:

[Dave]

Cuteness factor = CHECK
Engine performance = huh? wad dat?
Radar = Let's just say...we have a very close relationship with ground control and awacs. Not the worst but...it's appropriate for the class.
Flight performance = as long as it doesn't involve climbing to altitude it rocks!!
Armament = ok mix for what it's intended to do.


I think the goal, at least in the air superiority arena is to avoid China' s AAM by confusing them with it's size and cuteness (missile get's close to the ching kuo and goes "awe!! how cute.....damn where it go?)

Then...when China's comparatively massive Su-27,33 etc etc roll up to pull a Han Solo maneuver ...
the ching kuo will expertly tuck itself between the nacelles of the Chinese fighter, the pilot will use suction cups and make his way towards the intake and then throw old Timex watches in to the engines.

lmao oddly enough so do japanese pilots of f1s. Better example for overseas contractors, mitsubishi f2

[pauldun170]

lmao oddly enough so do japanese pilots of f1s. Better example for overseas contractors, mitsubishi f2

Mitsubishi F1 = How to pimp out a trainer modeled off a European design.
Mitsubishi F2 = How to build a REALLY expensive F-16.

:lol:

[Dave]

hey come on now! That shiet is mad tyte jdm yo! :Lol: do gotta admit its a bamf

[pauldun170]

That Taiwanese fighter reminds me of a cross between a Dassault Rafale and a F-16.


(in hushed voice)
I actually feel bad for Dassault that foreign sales of the Rafale haven't panned out. I was hoping somebody would pick em up (at the very least they'd get better engines than the French military get's with theirs), They've made some good planes over the years.


Dassault is great because you don't have to deal with
A. political nonsense when you buy from the US. Sure you get a good deal...but the strings can be a bitch
B. Russians and their "Unique" maintenance ideology. (Eeeengine not sEErvced in field comrade...you seeervice at central faceeelity once hours limit has been reached. )
C. Eurounion: Uhh you want how much for that?
D. Chinese - Russian maintenance plus Israeli electronics that enable you to use anyone else munitions poorly...Hey wait a minute...that circuit board looks like the one we saw over on the Boeing tour except the Boeing label scratched out..

[Dave]

dont forget that redonkulous parts chain with the EU its amazing that theres any typhoons flying at all

[Particle Man]

I want one in my garage :lol:

[DLIT]

When did they arrive? We've had 'em here for quite a while now.

[Krypt Keeper]

They have been at Langley for 2 yrs.

The F117 was there before.

I grew up right down the road from Langley and go to their airshows each yr.


Be amazed at what I have seen flying in the skies, among other things. :pat:

[rogue]

They have been at Langley for 2 yrs.

The F117 was there before.

I grew up right down the road from Langley and go to their airshows each yr.


Be amazed at what I have seen flying in the skies, among other things. :pat:

Woo-Hoo! Look at who decided to peak their heads in!

Hey, dude! :welcome:

:twfix:

[Dave]

heh as a direct result of this thread i ended up snagging myself a copy of wings over vietnam and spent most of last night dogfighting migs in my F101A voodoo

[Lamnidae]

heh as a direct result of this thread i ended up snagging myself a copy of wings over vietnam and spent most of last night dogfighting migs in my F101A voodoo

multiplayer? I tihnk i've got it.


pretty sure of it actually.

[Dave]

multiplayer? I tihnk i've got it.


pretty sure of it actually.

yep its got multi. havent tried that client out though. and im not sure how it handles add on aircraft and equipment in multi. i havent figured out the weapon editor yet and id hate to hit smoked by a genie when i cant retaliate :lol:

[RACER X]

http://i.gizmodo.com/5162787/a-look-at-fifth-generation-fighter-planes?autoplay=true

LOCKHEED vid.

[pauldun170]

http://i.gizmodo.com/5162787/a-look-at-fifth-generation-fighter-planes?autoplay=true

LOCKHEED vid.

Minus 1 (aka 150million down the drain....)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-il-f-22crash-pilot,0,2412204.story