Cornering Courage

[jtemple]

So, the riding season is fast approaching. I just finished up the last of my winter maintenance last night.

I got to thinking about cornering.

In my area, there are no real tight twisties, just big sweeping curves. I'd have to push damn close to 100mph to have any hope of dragging a knee, I think. I'm not opposed to reaching those speeds (these are very low traffic, farmland type areas).

I wear full leathers. I stay in my lane, I only pass other vehicles when it's safe, etc.

I have these dreams of really pushing the limits, dragging knees, hanging way off the bike, blah blah blah. But, I live on a budget (yeah, like everyone else) and have a family. A wreck would be pretty hard on my family and our pocketbook. Not to mention the speeds I'd have to reach to do that out here. I'd love to do track days, but those are also out of reach, financially.

On to the question: How do you know when you start to push the limits of your tires' grip? I'm riding on Pilot Power 2CTs this season. Is the edge of your grip really sudden and startling, or does it come on fairly gradually? I'm a little afraid to find that spot, considering how fast I'd have to be going to do so. If it's a noticeable controlled loss of traction, I can deal with it. I just don't want my wheels suddenly washing out from under me at those kinds of speeds.

The only tires I've felt slip on me are OEM tires on both my SV650 and my ZX-10R. I had Pilot Powers on my SV650 and took the chicken strips down to about 1/8" - 1/4" or so, and never had any slipping issues.

Let's talk cornering!

[Trip]

Find your closest track, you shouldn't be close to the limits of the tire yet.

[neebelung]

Find your closest track, you shouldn't be close to the limits of the tire yet.

I agree. Someone once told me "When I see a guy with NO chicken strips on his street tires, I know he's pushing it too hard for the street. Save it for the track."

[azoomm]

Your tires* will always exceed your own abilities.

**this means tires in good condition made for the type of riding you are referring to with all the blah blah blah taken into account. [/small print]

[jtemple]

Find your closest track, you shouldn't be close to the limits of the tire yet.I will do track days, just as soon as I can.

I guess I'm just kind of paranoid and need to learn to trust my tires.

[smileyman]

Crashing sucks. Do NOT try and find your tires adhesion limits on track or highway unless you are prepared to fall down and pay the piper!!!

Next you can get on track, knee down, and use your tires tread up to the edge without getting over your tires adhesion limits. Big hairy concept here but there is a difference between riding at great lean angles and actually using up 100% of the grip a modern tire can give you.

I have seen lots of tires scrubbed to the edge but the riders lap times are 10-12 secinds off the pace. The experts are using all the lean angle AND pushing the tire to the limit where it will slide while leaned over. Just a bit don't wanna run off line or scrub off speed but just to the point where you know your bike will not corner any harder for sliding out.

To get to that point you have to ride hard and often and be willing to get hurt, ruin a bike, maybe cost your self alot of $$. When Commitment is huge so are the risks.

Last do not attempt to find this on the highway. You go from moderate risk to definite disaster. Not many people ride outside the lines and recover quickly, some not at all.

[Archren]

Crashing sucks. Do NOT try and find your tires adhesion limits on track or highway unless you are prepared to fall down and pay the piper!!!

Next you can get on track, knee down, and use your tires tread up to the edge without getting over your tires adhesion limits. Big hairy concept here but there is a difference between riding at great lean angles and actually using up 100% of the grip a modern tire can give you.

I have seen lots of tires scrubbed to the edge but the riders lap times are 10-12 secinds off the pace. The experts are using all the lean angle AND pushing the tire to the limit where it will slide while leaned over. Just a bit don't wanna run off line or scrub off speed but just to the point where you know your bike will not corner any harder for sliding out.

To get to that point you have to ride hard and often and be willing to get hurt, ruin a bike, maybe cost your self alot of $$. When Commitment is huge so are the risks.

Last do not attempt to find this on the highway. You go from moderate risk to definite disaster. Not many people ride outside the lines and recover quickly, some not at all.


That about sums it up right there.

[No Worries]

Luckily, Nebraska is right next to Colorado. First you should come out west and take a Total Control class where they teach you how to corner correctly: http://www.t3rg.com/. Then I'll take you on some roads where you can put your knee down at 15 mph. The hard part will be getting you to go back to Nebraska afterward.

[Porkchop]

On to the question: How do you know when you start to push the limits of your tires' grip? I'm riding on Pilot Power 2CTs this season. Is the edge of your grip really sudden and startling, or does it come on fairly gradually? I'm a little afraid to find that spot, considering how fast I'd have to be going to do so. If it's a noticeable controlled loss of traction, I can deal with it. I just don't want my wheels suddenly washing out from under me at those kinds of speeds.

Is it just me or are we not answering his question. I must be taking it a different way? I took it more along the lines of cornering feel, rather than tire limits. :idk:

Sorry, cant help you there either.... im a noob. :whistle:

[OreoGaborio]

hehe, I'll try to answer the question a little bit :p

Some tires are different than others... some give you LOTS of warning, some very little... In either case you need to spend lots of time near that limit to be able to listen to them and learn the signs. With rear tire traction loss you'll feel the back end begin to walk out on you... with front tire traction loss it'll feel like the bike suddenly has power steering and the front end feels kind of "numb".

I'd be willing to bet that after a crash almost all of your typical street riders, the vast majority of track day enthusiasts and even some racers will say (at LEAST to themselves) "Man, the tires just gave right out with hardly any warning at all!". It takes a LOT of training to be able to push a tire right up TO the limit, RECOGNIZE that you're at the limit and KEEP it there at that limit without going OVER that limit.

Even at the level that I'm at, I still have plenty of trouble riding right at the limit & keeping it there consistently even though I've developed a pretty good feel for knowing when I'm there. The biggest reason why I haven't crashed much when riding as hard as I do is because I've developed the ability to stay very relaxed and smooth when the tires are slipping.

Needless to say I STRONGLY suggest you don't try to develop that skill on the street. Instead of practicing outright speed, practice being smooth & relaxed cuz THAT'S what will do the most to keep you out of trouble once you get to that limit of traction.... heck, you might not even realize you were there until a split second after it happened and you regained traction.


Hope that helps... lemme know if you're still kinda fuzzy on it & want me to attempt to clear anything up :)

[jtemple]

All the input is appreciated, and helpful. While I would certainly love to take some classes and do some track days, it's just not in the budget right now.

My question is sort of open ended, I suppose.

I'm thinking that unless I'm too hard on the throttle coming out of a turn or something along those lines, I'm probably not going to push the limits of my tires on anything out here. I probably just need to learn to relax a little and not be so worried about a crash. I rarely exceed about 80 mph in those big sweepers I was talking about.

[OreoGaborio]

Yeah I hear ya... it's not a cheap sport.

btw, I added some things to my post above in the first long paragraph, not sure if you saw them.

[the chi]

Quiet honestly, you are never using as much of your tire or your bikes potential on the street as you think you are. Even if it feels like you are "THIS CLOSE" to getting that knee down or the bike leaned all the way, you arent.

Since you cant get the necessary conditions on the street that would enable you to "safely" (used loosely) push the limits, save it for the track. Enjoy your weekend rides, ride within your limits and a bit below, especially if you have a fear of crashing, and I promise that while you may not feel like your skills are improving, they are and the more you ride, the better you get, without even realizing it.

[jtemple]

Yeah I hear ya... it's not a cheap sport.

btw, I added some things to my post above in the first long paragraph, not sure if you saw them.
Yep, got it. Great input, too. Thanks!

[Dave]

good stuff. Now if someone would start up a basic suspension setup thread :whistle:

[the chi]

good stuff. Now if someone would start up a basic suspension setup thread :whistle:

Here's a thought, leave it alone unless your a professional! :lol:

[smileyman]

Rae makes a point. The majority of street only riders will not notice or benefit from 90% of the suspension adjustments available. Look in your manual, find the base line set up, and then just ride! I raced an SV 650 one season and made 1 suspension adjustment all year (1/2 in of rear shock height) and won an amatuer championship while finishing 2nd and 3rd in 2 other classes. (not bragging but simply to show you that you can concentrate on just riding and do well if your baseline is close)

For those who have to twiddle I will find the links that Sportrider and Motorcycist have published in the past.

Back to tires, What Orieo and others stated is all true. In my experience from the olden days, Dunlops went all squishy before they gave in and slide, Pirellis kind of chattered lightly and then transitioned into a gradual controlled slide, Michelins would stick then break loose completely without much warning. But these were 02-05 brand tires. They have come ALONG way in 4-5 years and most have excellent feedback and grip levels with a wide margin of error.

In my years of racing I can only count 2 crashes that came frmo a tire just giving way and I contribute both of those times to something on the racing surface. The majority of my lowsides were levering the front of the ground (with the throttle or the pegs) and my one and only hi-side was a false nuetral that hammered into gear after I had leaned in.

[Dave]

Here's a thought, leave it alone unless your a professional! :lol:

well lets just say i never met the previous owner but im fairly sure i weigh more than he did ;)

[Trip]

Is it just me or are we not answering his question. I must be taking it a different way? I took it more along the lines of cornering feel, rather than tire limits. :idk:

Sorry, cant help you there either.... im a noob. :whistle:

That's not something I can answer over the internet. I have never seen him ride or know anything about his throttle/brake control or body position while he is cornering. It's considerably hard to give good cornering advice without seeing how the person actually rides the bike, unless he provides us with some pics/vids.

[the chi]

well lets just say i never met the previous owner but im fairly sure i weigh more than he did ;)

:lol: I just know too many people who thought they knew what they were doing jack shit up and have to pay to get it fixed. Thankfully, I get mine done once a year and Im not small enough to even make an impact, but Ivegot good friends that can do it if need be that are professionals.

That's not something I can answer over the internet. I have never seen him ride or know anything about his throttle/brake control or body position while he is cornering. It's considerably hard to give good cornering advice without seeing how the person actually rides the bike, unless he provides us with some pics/vids.

I actually thought about asking for pics, to show technique, positioning, etc myself...i remember those days...

[jtemple]

I think I have about 25,000 or so miles under my belt on 3 bikes. I've done enough homework that I'm confident that my riding position & technique are solid, at least for the roads we have here. I'd post up some pics/video, but I don't have any.

[HRCNICK11]

All the input is appreciated, and helpful. While I would certainly love to take some classes and do some track days, it's just not in the budget right now.


I'd like to point out unless you can aford to pay your bills from a hospital bed or have disablity insurance than you can't aford to ride over your head on the streets either.

I have found lately that riding mini super moto bikes on Kart tracks is a very afordable way to learn to ride fast. Once I started riding on the track I slowed way down on the street. Some trackdays are only $15 dollars and tires that are cheaper than big bikes and last most of the season.

One trackday will teach you more about riding than years of tooling around on the street.

I have been to the hospital and funerals of people that thought riding fast on the street was a good idea. I have done it and I'm glad I lived to tell others its a bad idea. I know I sound like your mother but trust me try to get on the track at least once. It will change your live.

I'm not sure where you live, if your near Michigan or Ohio(I ride there alot) your welcome to try out my mini (crf150R) during a trackday it would only cost you $15 or so depending on the track. I have a garage full of bikes and I ride my CRF150R more than any of them on ice, dirt and pavement.

[HRCNICK11]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3207/2612326510_e133ca2aaf.jpg

Come out and play!

[jtemple]

I tried like heck to talk my wife into letting me get a DRZ400SM!

You guys do make some great points about keeping conservative on the street. I should just pony up the cash and do a couple track days.

[Trip]

I tried like heck to talk my wife into letting me get a DRZ400SM!

My wife is going to let me get one if I sell the fiddy. I will probably do it. Just got to find a SM I want.

[t-homo]

I am hoping to do a track day at either Heartland Park in Topeka or Hallett in Oklahoma toward the end of summer if you want to look at meeting up.

[the chi]

My wife is going to let me get one if I sell the fiddy. I will probably do it. Just got to find a SM I want.


If you sell the fiddy let me know and how much ya want...looking for a track toy...

[OneSickPsycho]

My wife is going to let me get one if I sell the fiddy. I will probably do it. Just got to find a SM I want.

Aprilia.

[racedoll]

Some tires are different than others... some give you LOTS of warning, some very little... In either case you need to spend lots of time near that limit to be able to listen to them and learn the signs.

Exactly what I was thinking, just probably said in a better way than I would have put it. Although I don't quite agree with spending lots of time learning. If referring to experience, then OK but still I think this is how well a rider knows his/her bike. Yes, this comes from experience but some people pick this up quicker than others. And changing your suspension constantly won't help. Learn how it reacts with minor changes. Give yourself time to adjust to the changes you make to it.

Not only do tires make a difference, but the pressures you are running. Lower pressure will help with grip, but not too low. Too high and you lose some grip.

As far as trusting your tires, it's just something you have to do. Fortunately I have someone I trust and if they trust the tires, then I know I can too. I just have to trust my abilities. I know the bike is far more capable of what I can ever do with it, so the goal is just not to upset it - let it do what it needs to do, that everything will work out.

I probably just need to learn to relax a little and not be so worried about a crash. I rarely exceed about 80 mph in those big sweepers I was talking about.

Relaxing would help a lot. One thing they teach you in the school/track day are the chicken wings. Flap your elbows like chicken wings to get yourself to relax. Once you relax you expand your capabilities.

And if you can't afford to crash on the road, keep your head level, save your money and do a school/track day to satisfy your desires. A crash on the road will probably be far worse than at the track. Too many variables on the street.

[dReWpY]

2ct's have insane grip when properly warmed up, i litterally ran on the side wall at nashville.. not cause i am a great rider, but i make the bike work for it harder then it prolly needs too, but trust the tires and they will work

[Yamerhaw]

Your tires* will always exceed your own abilities.

**this means tires in good condition made for the type of riding you are referring to with all the blah blah blah taken into account. [/small print]


nothing personal, but this is probably not great advice, IMO

[Frostz28]

You guys do make some great points about keeping conservative on the street. I should just pony up the cash and do a couple track days.

Ya you really should. I used to ride REAL hard on the street with a group of buddies, from what Ive seen there are two things that will make you slow down on the street and just enjoy the ride. One is a crash, and two is hitting up the track. Trust me I know the track is expensive, I rarely get to go myself. But my crash was a WHOLE lot more expensive and could have been a LOT worse. Some of my buddies weren't so lucky and Ive visited several of them in the hospital, some for extended stays. I got lucky and didn't get hurt. I was ridin to hard on the street and there was just a touch of gravel on the road and down I went. I was only going about 60 and slid what felt like a mile. I can't imagine how far you would slid doin 100+ and you'd be lucky not to take out a fence or post or something with your body. The street is no place to be putting a knee down. Yes it can be done and all that but really its just to much of a risk. the surfaces are uneven, gravel, rocks, leaves, twigs, dust, animals, water anything can change in a second and then you're in big trouble.

[Amber Lamps]

Ya you really should. I used to ride REAL hard on the street with a group of buddies, from what Ive seen there are two things that will make you slow down on the street and just enjoy the ride. One is a crash, and two is hitting up the track. Trust me I know the track is expensive, I rarely get to go myself. But my crash was a WHOLE lot more expensive and could have been a LOT worse. Some of my buddies weren't so lucky and Ive visited several of them in the hospital, some for extended stays. I got lucky and didn't get hurt. I was ridin to hard on the street and there was just a touch of gravel on the road and down I went. I was only going about 60 and slid what felt like a mile. I can't imagine how far you would slid doin 100+ and you'd be lucky not to take out a fence or post or something with your body. The street is no place to be putting a knee down. Yes it can be done and all that but really its just to much of a risk. the surfaces are uneven, gravel, rocks, leaves, twigs, dust, animals, water anything can change in a second and then you're in big trouble.

Okay,I read this and then I read your sig line....:skep: Sounds like you are tip toeing to me.:whistle:

[Frostz28]

Okay,I read this and then I read your sig line....:skep: Sounds like you are tip toeing to me.:whistle:

LOL ya got me. I don't tip toe on the track! I guess by "refusing to tip toe" I mean I refuse to avoid all unsafe things like riding motorcycles simply to end up dying like everyone else in the end. But that doesn't mean that Im trying to race anyone to death. I just don't wanna end up impaled on some farmers fence! or sliced into layers by a barbed wire fence! Like in that final destination movie!

[fasternyou929]

When I read your question, I tried to think of a track where I've had my knee down at over 100mph. And I can say with a fair amount of certainty that's yet to happen. I think if you have to get your speed up that high, you probably also have to "exaggerate" the turn to get a knee down. In other words, I picture someone really stretching just to get a knee down, not because it's what you need to do to get through the turn.

In that kind of scenario, I'd say your warning before traction loss is going to be slim to none, since you probably won't be in the proper position on the bike. A 100mph high-side where you could be waiting 30+ minutes for an ambulance to arrive is a rough way to find the limits of the relationship you and your tires have.

I'll give the 2340987th nod to doing a track day. :)