Have we ever NOT been at Homeland Security Threat Level Orange?

[Homeslice]

Seriously.

I've flown over 100 times since 9/11, and I can't remember it ever being anything BUT orange.

What's the point of having a "threat level" if the level always stays the same?

[BobTheBiker]

its another way to inspire panic into the masses basically. thats how I see it.

[jtemple]

Beats me. Nobody pays attention to it any more anyway. They have Oranged us numb.

[Dave]

Seriously.

I've flown probably 100 times since 9/11, and I can't remember it ever being anything BUT orange.

What's the point of having a "threat level" if the level always stays the same?

welcome to government super micromanagement. the army does the same thing. every single fucking thing you do you need to have a printed risk assessment for, now the rub is that for any risk other than low you have to get the battalion commander to sign off on the activity. and no one wants to gather any undue attention from the old man so guess how many mediums and highs get written up?

[derf]

Its been yellow a few times

[Racerboy]

I thought we were at Yellow for a while....but what caused it to change, I really have no idea

[goof2]

I thought we were at Yellow for a while....but what caused it to change, I really have no idea

I think it is any time the government feels an attack may be imminent they raise it to orange. Right now it is yellow except for airports which are orange.

[Gas Man]

I think it is any time the government feels an attack may be imminent they raise it to orange. Right now it is yellow except for airports which are orange.
exactly... HLS can issue different levels for different areas. For example when the terrorist fucks were going to try to bomb my company near JFK airport we were at like red or some shit But only for that area.

[Adeptus_Minor]

Have you ever watched American Dad?
There's a color wheel with a spinner that helps them determine what state of alert we'll be at today.
So it just happens to keep landing on Orange. :idk:

[Homeslice]

Still orange :shrug:

I don't remember it being yellow even ONCE in the last 8 years and prolly 150 times I've flown during that time.

Retarded.

Dept of Homeland Security = teh ghey

[Dave]

welcome to government super micromanagement. the army does the same thing. every single fucking thing you do you need to have a printed risk assessment for, now the rub is that for any risk other than low you have to get the battalion commander to sign off on the activity. and no one wants to gather any undue attention from the old man so guess how many mediums and highs get written up?

its funny,i forgot i posted in this thread and as soon as i saw the title pop up under new posts i jumped in here all ready to post the same exact shit :lol:

[Amber Lamps]

Still orange :shrug:

I don't remember it being yellow even ONCE in the last 8 years and prolly 150 times I've flown during that time.

Retarded.

Dept of Homeland Security = teh ghey

No what's "GHEY" is having a bunch of Muslim motherfucking pieces of shit, fly a plane into a building and kill over 3,000 innocent people! If making me take off my shoes and not allowing me to carry shampoo on a plane can even remotely prevent that then I'm all for it. I guess the measure is whether there have been more attacks of this nature?.... Hmmm no there haven't so I guess it's fucking somewhat effective.

You know what? Fuck y'all, I live in a small town with a tiny airport and almost no large buildings. Maybe your boy Obama will do us a favor and dissolve Homeland Security. If we're lucky the terrorists will nuke D.C., New York, Chicago, Miami, and L.A. simultaneously. That would wipe out about 75% of the jack asses that don't think we need to secure our borders in one fell swoop!

[Homeslice]

You know what, if those 3,000 lives had been lost in North Dakota or Mississippi, I bet most people would have forgotten about it by now. But just because it was big bad NYC and the Pentagon, it was a big blow to our ego. Yeah that must sound cruel and callous, but I call it how I see it.

And yes I think airport security is way overkill, compared to what they're doing to protect our borders and our shipping ports (which is practically NOTHING). If anyone is going to bring over a dirty bomb or something, it's NOT going to be on an airline.

[Dave]

No what's "GHEY" is having a bunch of Muslim motherfucking pieces of shit, fly a plane into a building and kill over 3,000 innocent people! If making me take off my shoes and not allowing me to carry shampoo on a plane can even remotely prevent that then I'm all for it. I guess the measure is whether there have been more attacks of this nature?.... Hmmm no there haven't so I guess it's fucking somewhat effective.

You know what? Fuck y'all, I live in a small town with a tiny airport and almost no large buildings. Maybe your boy Obama will do us a favor and dissolve Homeland Security. If we're lucky the terrorists will nuke D.C., New York, Chicago, Miami, and L.A. simultaneously. That would wipe out about 75% of the jack asses that don't think we need to secure our borders in one fell swoop!

cant wait. remind me to stock up on D cells for my geiger counter.

You know what, if those 3,000 lives had been lost in North Dakota or Mississippi, I bet most people would have forgotten about it by now. But just because it was big bad NYC and the Pentagon, it was a big blow to our ego. Yeah that must sound cruel and callous, but I call it how I see it.

And yes I think airport security is way overkill, compared to what they're doing to protect our borders and our shipping ports (which is practically NOTHING). If anyone is going to bring over a dirty bomb or something, it's NOT going to be on an airline.

wouldnt be too surprised considering the way the left thinks about "flyover" country.

as a probable proof of how stupid this country's inhabitants are the ebay price for a decent geiger counter has fallen slightly since the election of foreign policy nightmare and blabbermouth..

edit...theres a guy advertising a calibration service for the paltry sum of 78 dollars plus shipping. assuming hes on the up and up at least some folks havent lost their minds

[Rangerscott]

They went ape shit when they found a half empty water bottle on a co workers carry on. They even saw him drinking from it and still searched him.

It was because he's mexican mix.


We flew Southwest and it was layed back. Planes arnt huge so your not cramped as bad and on our way back (4 states away), it was pretty much empty on both planes we had to jump on. We got quadruple the peanut packs. LOL

[Amber Lamps]

You know what, if those 3,000 lives had been lost in North Dakota or Mississippi, I bet most people would have forgotten about it by now. But just because it was big bad NYC and the Pentagon, it was a big blow to our ego. Yeah that must sound cruel and callous, but I call it how I see it.

And yes I think airport security is way overkill, compared to what they're doing to protect our borders and our shipping ports (which is practically NOTHING). If anyone is going to bring over a dirty bomb or something, it's NOT going to be on an airline.


Horse shit! I waited an extra two weeks for an overseas package right after 9-11. Oh and I call bullshit that it wouldn't have mattered if they had crashed a stadium in Indianapolis with 3,000 people in it. It's too bad they couldn't have hit an Indigo Girls concert in San Francisco...

[Flexin]

Still orange :shrug:

I don't remember it being yellow even ONCE in the last 8 years and prolly 150 times I've flown during that time.

Retarded.

Dept of Homeland Security = teh ghey

Maybe the threat level hasn't changed at all in those areas.

Maybe your arrival causes the Orange level. Hmmmmm.

James

[Dave]

Horse shit! I waited an extra two weeks for an overseas package right after 9-11. Oh and I call bullshit that it wouldn't have mattered if they had crashed a stadium in Indianapolis with 3,000 people in it. It's too bad they couldn't have hit an Indigo Girls concert in San Francisco...

my buddy club monotube coilovers for the nsx were quarantined for almost 6 months. musta looked interesting on xray :lol

[Amber Lamps]

Maybe the threat level hasn't changed at all in those areas.

Maybe your arrival causes the Orange level. Hmmmmm.

James

He's probably related to Cat Stevens...:lol:

I have no doubt that if we allowed it, these motherfuckers would crash planes into buildings daily. Just like they blow themselves up in market places and on school buses. I don't think that some people really understand what we're up against here. I was lucky enough to be over there at a different time but I've talked to soldiers that have seen it. They don't care who they kill. We accidentally snuff one female or child and it's court marshals for everyone. While they routinely murder dozens of their own people just to get one or two of us. If it were up to me, we'd close our borders and systematically round up all illegals and kick them the fuck out. I don't fucking care what the lobbies or the ACLU thinks about it!

It's just a matter of when the shit goes down. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we have foiled one or even two dirty bomb plans already. Keep your head in the sand and bitch about your bottle of Perrier if you want. Everyday we go without a major terrorist attack is a blessing and a testimony to the hard work and sacrifice the some poor unappreciated bastards put in so some pampered dumb ass can have the freedom to call him "ghey" on the internet.:pat:

[Amber Lamps]

my buddy club monotube coilovers for the nsx were quarantined for almost 6 months. musta looked interesting on xray :lol

Yea it does suck but what if they did find something fucked up in a package that looked like yours? :idk: I just look at the stakes and wonder how I'd like to be the guy that let that crate through because it looked okay and later found out that materials within murdered 20,000 people at the Rose Bowl.:idk:

[Homeslice]

He's probably related to Cat Stevens...:lol:

It's just a matter of when the shit goes down. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if we have foiled one or even two dirty bomb plans already. Keep your head in the sand and bitch about your bottle of Perrier if you want. Everyday we go without a major terrorist attack is a blessing and a testimony to the hard work and sacrifice the some poor unappreciated bastards put in so some pampered dumb ass can have the freedom to call him "ghey" on the internet.:pat:

Hard work isn't the issue. Appreciation for what they're doing isn't the issue. The issue is how much time & convenience we're willing to give up in exchange for security. If you think anything is justified, then why aren't you advocating that the airline industry totally shut down? After all, that would prevent hijackings, wouldn't it? But no, I'm guessing you still want the airlines to work.......Which proves that you agree that there's a middle ground between security and freedom. So the only question is, where is that middle ground, and where is the threat.

There is so much else in the way of terrorism that could be done in this country if they wanted to, much more easily than hijacking a plane. They could introduce poisons into our food or water, they could barricade a theater and burn it down, they could take out a bridge or some train tracks, hell a couple of the forest fires out west were considered arson, maybe they'll get that idea soon.

Keeping the threat level at orange all the time is like building a car with an oil pressure gauge that stays in one spot all the time.......It's aggravating, and somewhat insulting. If people keep hearing the same thing all the time, don't you think they will ignore it?

[Homeslice]

my buddy club monotube coilovers for the nsx were quarantined for almost 6 months. musta looked interesting on xray :lol

Props on Buddy Club, I heard there stuff is pretty nice.......Shoulda got their 6-spoke forged wheels as well (similar to the Advan RG's if I recall correctly).

[goof2]

Hard work isn't the issue. Appreciation for what they're doing isn't the issue. The issue is how much time & convenience we're willing to give up in exchange for security. If you think anything is justified, then why aren't you advocating that the airline industry totally shut down? After all, that would prevent hijackings, wouldn't it? But no, I'm guessing you still want the airlines to work.......Which proves that you agree that there's a middle ground between security and freedom. So the only question is, where is that middle ground, and where is the threat.

There is so much else in the way of terrorism that could be done in this country if they wanted to, much more easily than hijacking a plane. They could introduce poisons into our food or water, they could barricade a theater and burn it down, they could take out a bridge or some train tracks, hell a couple of the forest fires out west were considered arson, maybe they'll get that idea soon.

Keeping the threat level at orange all the time is like building a car with an oil pressure gauge that stays in one spot all the time.......It's aggravating, and somewhat insulting. If people keep hearing the same thing all the time, don't you think they will ignore it?

I would agree with you if Homeland Security always kept it at orange. They have not. Here is a timeline of changes in status.

http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/history/editorial_0844.shtm

The natural tendency is to try and prevent the last attack from happening again. I suspect you would not be very happy with the measures required to try and stop any potential future attacks.

If terrorists wanted to screw us up one of the best ways would be to attack multiple malls during the Christmas rush. They wouldn't need anything special. They could use weapons that are completely legal. Hell, they could use rifles, shotguns, and ammunition purchased from sporting goods stores attached to many malls. Something tells me you would be less than pleased though if you had to undergo the same security checks to enter a mall you currently have to deal with to enter an airport terminal.

Where is the middle ground when the threat is pretty much everywhere?

[Particle Man]

I just get annoyed at the inconsistency from one trip to the next. Last time it was "take your phone out of your bag" when the time before that (just a few days prior) I was told to put it in my carry-on bag. Make up your freakin' mind people, don't make me guess.

[goof2]

I just get annoyed at the inconsistency from one trip to the next. Last time it was "take your phone out of your bag" when the time before that (just a few days prior) I was told to put it in my carry-on bag. Make up your freakin' mind people, don't make me guess.

I doubt this is why you run in to inconsistencies, but standardization makes it easier for bad guys to plan around as well.

[Dave]

Props on Buddy Club, I heard there stuff is pretty nice.......Shoulda got their 6-spoke forged wheels as well (similar to the Advan RG's if I recall correctly).

at the time i was using na1 nsx-r wheel by enkei. hard to find a lighter set out there but also weird sizes for tires. ive since switched back to the stock wheels

[askmrjesus]

ive since switched back to the stock wheels

Clearly, the terrorists have won.

JC

[Dave]

Clearly, the terrorists have won.

JC

nah i just wore the back right bald to the cords. final straw was a rolling burnout from 1st to 2nd while trying to get a guy in a F348 to race. he bitched out :lol:

[Amber Lamps]

Hard work isn't the issue. Appreciation for what they're doing isn't the issue. The issue is how much time & convenience we're willing to give up in exchange for security. If you think anything is justified, then why aren't you advocating that the airline industry totally shut down? After all, that would prevent hijackings, wouldn't it? But no, I'm guessing you still want the airlines to work.......Which proves that you agree that there's a middle ground between security and freedom. So the only question is, where is that middle ground, and where is the threat.

There is so much else in the way of terrorism that could be done in this country if they wanted to, much more easily than hijacking a plane. They could introduce poisons into our food or water, they could barricade a theater and burn it down, they could take out a bridge or some train tracks, hell a couple of the forest fires out west were considered arson, maybe they'll get that idea soon.

Keeping the threat level at orange all the time is like building a car with an oil pressure gauge that stays in one spot all the time.......It's aggravating, and somewhat insulting. If people keep hearing the same thing all the time, don't you think they will ignore it?


Um you are the one that called Homeland Security "ghey" are you not? That shows a complete disrespect for their work and total a unappreciative attitude for their sacrifice. So what the fuck do you think they should do? Artificially change the level just to make it different? What if the oil pressure IS the same? What if the threat level IS the same? What if the there actually is a method to the threat levels? Do you really think they just make this shit up? Hell, maybe there isn't any threat at all, maybe the gov't is just making all this up. I don't know you personally and I'd hate to ASSume but at this point, I honestly doubt that you have shed any blood for this country and that you have probably never lost anyone you love to this struggle.:idk: Enjoy your life and freedom while you have it. If people like you have your way, it won't last long.

[askmrjesus]

Do you really think they just make this shit up?

:lol:

Of course they do.

Orange is "safe" mode for Homeland Security. It means "we could be hit by a terror attack at any moment, but don't worry, we're on it."

If they stayed at red and nothing happened, people would be pissed. If they stayed at yellow, and something happened, people would be even more pissed.

The entire system exists to inform the people who are the least prepared to do anything about it.

Us.

JC

[goof2]

:lol:

Of course they do.

Orange is "safe" mode for Homeland Security. It means "we could be hit by a terror attack at any moment, but don't worry, we're on it."

If they stayed at red and nothing happened, people would be pissed. If they stayed at yellow, and something happened, people would be even more pissed.

The entire system exists to inform the people who are the least prepared to do anything about it.

Us.

JC

As I posted above the threat level moves around. It hasn't just stayed at orange.

The public in general may be the least prepared, but they are the ones in the best position to do something about it.

In the early 90s in England you didn't leave your bags unattended and if you saw an unattended bag you reported it. That was because unattended bags at that point had a nasty habit of blowing up. The first line of defense against this was the public.

Fortunately (due to the lack of incidents) Americans have not had to develop this vigilance. If the situation changes I hope we are capable of adapting.

[Particle Man]

I just ate an orange. Does that count?

[Homeslice]

:lol:

Of course they do.

Orange is "safe" mode for Homeland Security. It means "we could be hit by a terror attack at any moment, but don't worry, we're on it."

If they stayed at red and nothing happened, people would be pissed. If they stayed at yellow, and something happened, people would be even more pissed.

The entire system exists to inform the people who are the least prepared to do anything about it.

Us.

JC

DHS was created just so the gov't could act like it was doing something new. :lol:
ALL of DHS's duties were already being performed by other agencies. If those agencies had had their shit together, or at least been given the opportunity to get their shit together, another agency wouldn't have been necessary.

[Homeslice]

Um you are the one that called Homeland Security "ghey" are you not? That shows a complete disrespect for their work and total a unappreciative attitude for their sacrifice. .
Sacrifice? We're not talking about the military, we're talking about the DHS, and specifically the TSA, since this is about airports. I don't know where you get off calling me anti-military when that was never the topic.

And a true car enthusiast would want to know what their oil pressure is at any given time. redflip
Pretty much every aftermarket gauge allows you to see the pressure move up and down in response to your revs. But most OEM gauges don't. They're either too slow to react, or just sit in one spot all the time. Ghey.

[askmrjesus]

As I posted above the threat level moves around. It hasn't just stayed at orange.

The public in general may be the least prepared, but they are the ones in the best position to do something about it.

In the early 90s in England you didn't leave your bags unattended and if you saw an unattended bag you reported it. That was because unattended bags at that point had a nasty habit of blowing up. The first line of defense against this was the public.

Fortunately (due to the lack of incidents) Americans have not had to develop this vigilance. If the situation changes I hope we are capable of adapting.

I looked at your link to the DHS timeline, and with a few exceptions, most of the threats were so vague, they were of no value to the average citizen. "We received intelligence that terrorists may be planning attacks somewhere in the US, around the holidays". OK, so, what, you want I should wear a hat today? What am I supposed to do with that information? Tell me what the fucking guy looks like, and I'll keep an eye out for him.

I think Homeslice is right. They have to look like they're doing something, so they made a chart. I'm not discounting the others measures they're taking, but a chart? Charts scare me. In my experience, when people have no fucking clue what to do next, they start making charts.

I don't disagree that the average American has a low degree of situational awareness. This isn't Israel, or the UK in the 70's. Shit, we can even concentrate on driving down the freeway without fucking it up. All the charts in the world aren't going to make up for that.

JC

[Amber Lamps]

I looked at your link to the DHS timeline, and with a few exceptions, most of the threats were so vague, they were of no value to the average citizen. "We received intelligence that terrorists may be planning attacks somewhere in the US, around the holidays". OK, so, what, you want I should wear a hat today? What am I supposed to do with that information? Tell me what the fucking guy looks like, and I'll keep an eye out for him.

I think Homeslice is right. They have to look like they're doing something, so they made a chart. I'm not discounting the others measures they're taking, but a chart? Charts scare me. In my experience, when people have no fucking clue what to do next, they start making charts.

I don't disagree that the average American has a low degree of situational awareness. This isn't Israel, or the UK in the 70's. Shit, we can even concentrate on driving down the freeway without fucking it up. All the charts in the world aren't going to make up for that.

JC

So what should they do? Nothing? The public demands some sort of "visual" so they give it to us. What would satisfy you guys? What is your solution HS? How would you deal with this situation? Instead of standing aside and pointing fingers and calling people who are at least trying to keep us safe "ghey", why don't YOU do something?

JC I agree that the chart system may be flawed but what would you suggest instead? You realize that we are the reason for it don't you? We want to be "unaware", we don't want the dirty details, and we sure as hell don't want to have to actually DO anything. Listen to the complaints here about water bottles, etc.

I'm not saying that they are perfect or anything but unless you have a better plan, it's the best that we have to work with right now. Again, I understand that this is a flawed argument but since there haven't been any more attacks, they must be doing something right.

[Tmall]

I have a tiger repelling rock to sell you tigger..

There are no tigers around, so it must be working.

[RACER X]

crazy! it's not like they arrested 2 people this week trying to blow chit up or anything......sec. in the US airports still suck...

sec. was tighter in eur. in the mid 90's when i was over there........

dammed if you do and dammed if ya don't......

[askmrjesus]

JC I agree that the chart system may be flawed but what would you suggest instead? You realize that we are the reason for it don't you? We want to be "unaware", we don't want the dirty details, and we sure as hell don't want to have to actually DO anything. Listen to the complaints here about water bottles, etc.

I'm not saying that they are perfect or anything but unless you have a better plan, it's the best that we have to work with right now. Again, I understand that this is a flawed argument but since there haven't been any more attacks, they must be doing something right.

I don't need a better plan, we already have one. It's been five or so years since the 9/11 commission finished it's report, yet we have yet to implement some of their most basic recommendations, (I'm not typing it all out for you, go look it up).

If you think a chart is the "best thing we have to work with right now", you are woefully uninformed.

JC

[goof2]

I looked at your link to the DHS timeline, and with a few exceptions, most of the threats were so vague, they were of no value to the average citizen. "We received intelligence that terrorists may be planning attacks somewhere in the US, around the holidays". OK, so, what, you want I should wear a hat today? What am I supposed to do with that information? Tell me what the fucking guy looks like, and I'll keep an eye out for him.

I think Homeslice is right. They have to look like they're doing something, so they made a chart. I'm not discounting the others measures they're taking, but a chart? Charts scare me. In my experience, when people have no fucking clue what to do next, they start making charts.

If charts scare you what happens when you see a powerpoint, a complete loss of bladder control?

Part of the reason for the threat level is for the public. It is designed to drive situational awareness among the public. The public has not responded as hoped. It is also designed to cover the government's collective ass. If an attack happens they can point to the threat level as evidence that they tried to warn the public. On both these fronts I don't think it has been particularly effective.

It is also designed to be the civilian agency equivalent of the DEFCON system for the military. Government agencies are supposed to set their preparation, readiness, and security procedures based upon the threat level. The military has different procedures based upon different defense readiness conditions. Civilian governmental agencies are supposed to do the same based upon the different threat levels. I don't know how successful that has been.

I don't disagree that the average American has a low degree of situational awareness. This isn't Israel, or the UK in the 70's. Shit, we can even concentrate on driving down the freeway without fucking it up. All the charts in the world aren't going to make up for that.

JC

As I said above, part of the reason for the threat level was to drive situational awareness in the public. It hasn't worked. Is that a failing of the system or the public? I would say both.

The only reason this isn't Israel or the UK with the IRA is terrorists have so far chosen not to go that route. It has nothing to do with either the government or the public. The general public thinks they are safe, which has created much of the apathy about security. If the public no longer feels safe I suspect the apathy will disappear.

[askmrjesus]

If charts scare you what happens when you see a powerpoint, a complete loss of bladder control?

No, that's reserved for the unexpected appearance of ex-wives, and snakes.

Part of the reason for the threat level is for the public. It is designed to drive situational awareness among the public. The public has not responded as hoped. It is also designed to cover the government's collective ass. If an attack happens they can point to the threat level as evidence that they tried to warn the public. On both these fronts I don't think it has been particularly effective.

We would seem to be in agreement here.

It is also designed to be the civilian agency equivalent of the DEFCON system for the military. Government agencies are supposed to set their preparation, readiness, and security procedures based upon the threat level. The military has different procedures based upon different defense readiness conditions. Civilian governmental agencies are supposed to do the same based upon the different threat levels. I don't know how successful that has been.

I don't know either. Maybe we need a chart...

As I said above, part of the reason for the threat level was to drive situational awareness in the public. It hasn't worked. Is that a failing of the system or the public? I would say both.

Ok, so if it hasn't worked, why are we still using it? That, I think, is the whole point of the conversation. Perhaps we should stop wasting our money on charts, and try something else.

JC

[Low]

Personally I don't believe the TL will ever drop below Yellow. and if it does for some reason.. Be sure to stock up and grab your ankles cuz it's going to hit the fan for sure....!
:blowup:

[Amber Lamps]

I don't need a better plan, we already have one. It's been five or so years since the 9/11 commission finished it's report, yet we have yet to implement some of their most basic recommendations, (I'm not typing it all out for you, go look it up).

If you think a chart is the "best thing we have to work with right now", you are woefully uninformed.

JC

This is why I've always demanded that these type of threads stay in the "War Room". I don't even want to see them.

I'm not saying that a "chart" is the best we have, I'm saying the DHS is the best we have. As far as implementation of the 911 commission's reports goes, well considering the opposition to everything that the Bush administration has implemented so far. Like someone else said, "damned if you do, damned if you don't"

To answer the question about "sacrifice", there are more ways to "sacrifice" than just blood. These people work 24/7 trying to keep us safe.

[Amber Lamps]

Personally I don't believe the TL will ever drop below Yellow. and if it does for some reason.. Be sure to stock up and grab your ankles cuz it's going to hit the fan for sure....!
:blowup:

I think that the threat level should be gauged by you sig.... Jeez talk about creepy!

[Particle Man]

Ok, so if it hasn't worked, why are we still using it? That, I think, is the whole point of the conversation. Perhaps we should stop wasting our money on charts, and try something else.

JCBecause "the public, " in our society of fast food and movies on demand, wants to see a "product" to be assured that the government is doing something about potential threats.

BUT, we can't show them what the real product should be (a terrorist's head on a freakin' pike) because "that would be inhumane." So instead, we print up signs and talk about threat levels because that's all the public can handle.

Sad.

[Amber Lamps]

Because "the public, " in our society of fast food and movies on demand, wants to see a "product" to be assured that the government is doing something about potential threats.

BUT, we can't show them what the real product should be (a terrorist's head on a freakin' pike) because "that would be inhumane." So instead, we print up signs and talk about threat levels because that's all the public can handle.

Sad.

I tried to say this but as usual, I don't come across as well as some of you guys. The public has to be told something, I'm not sure what else could be done. Maybe we could bring back the old Civil Defense system from WWII.:idk:

[goof2]

No, that's reserved for the unexpected appearance of ex-wives, and snakes.

Understandable and expected.

We would seem to be in agreement here.

Cool.

I don't know either. Maybe we need a chart...

The DEFCON chart has been around for decades, but I suspect you know that.

Ok, so if it hasn't worked, why are we still using it? That, I think, is the whole point of the conversation. Perhaps we should stop wasting our money on charts, and try something else.

JC

It hasn't worked with the public, but I don't know if it has or hasn't worked with governmental agencies. Their alert system is apparently based on the threat level and if it is working why would we junk the system only to have to waste money to create another similar system? Essentially the same system has worked effectively for the military for decades. Just because it doesn't work with the public doesn't mean it doesn't work at all or have any value.

[TommyHotWheel]

Seriously.

I've flown over 100 times since 9/11, and I can't remember it ever being anything BUT orange.

What's the point of having a "threat level" if the level always stays the same?

Talk in the Middle East of an Oompa Loompa attack on U.S. strategic candy stockpiles. The European Marzipan Cooperative was crippled by a gang of singing, surly little people a few short...(Pah dum) weeks ago....

[Homeslice]

Ownage, in the latest issue of Wired:

Why Color-Coded Terror Alerts Have Made Us Less Safe

By Gary Wolf October 19, 2009 | 3:00 pm | Wired Nov 2009

It only hurt when you paid attention. As you stood in the airport security line, itchy with impatience and boredom, it became harder to block out the announcement that played over the PA system again and again: The terror alert level was set to orange. Still. What a joke.

Today, our national mood ring is under review by a fresh set of bureaucrats. A formal announcement of changes is expected this fall. But to understand how the color-coded terror alert system was ever considered a good idea, you have to think back to the spring of 2002. With the 9/11 attacks barely six months in the past, nerves were frayed. The topics of the day were weaponized anthrax, uninspected shipping containers, suitcase nukes. Federal officials, especially new homeland security czar Tom Ridge, felt a need to keep the nation vigilant, but they had few specifics to offer.

It was frustrating, Ridge recalls in a memoir published this fall, to keep passing on confusing news about vague threats from unknown enemies against unspecified targets.

The secretary tried to solve the problem with a simple and convenient public relations tool. It would have five colors: green (for low risk), blue (guarded), yellow (elevated), orange (high), and red (severe). It was an immediate failure.

Comedians were merciless. “The lowest level is condition off-white, followed by cream, putty, bone, and finally, natural,” said Darrell Hammond, playing Tom Ridge on Saturday Night Live. “It is essential that every American learns to recognize and distinguish these colors. Failure to do so could cost you your life. For those who may have questions, an excellent guide can be found on page 74 of the spring J.Crew catalog.”

After a cabinet-level debate that was resolved personally by President Bush, the system was launched at its midpoint: yellow. It cycled between yellow and orange five times during the first two years of its existence, and almost every time it changed, presidential approval ratings bumped up slightly, raising suspicions of partisan manipulation. But eventually the colors stopped changing and, over time, Americans gave it their ultimate disrespect: They ignored the system completely. Nobody knew what it meant, and even federal officials stopped using it. The press conferences ceased, the announcements disappeared. The national level has been kept at yellow since 2004. The threat level in airports (presumably at greater risk of attack) hasn’t changed since 2006. Every few minutes for the past 1,200-some days, all around the nation, travelers have been dutifully warned that we are, as always, on the brink of disaster: The terror alert level is at orange.

Such systems are stuck on stupid by their very nature. Broad national warnings are almost impossible to issue until they are too late to matter. And bureaucrats have every incentive never to touch them. Raise the level and you risk disturbing everybody’s day with a message that will cause great disruption and expense and may well prove, in the end, to be a false alarm. Lower the alert level and you make yourself vulnerable to charges that you’ve let down your guard, that the country somehow doesn’t need to worry about the host of threats that almost certainly loom.

Meanwhile, we have the technology and manpower to do it right. We live in a world of automatic traffic alerts, air-quality notifications, tsunami sirens, and seismic reporting. We’ve got crime-watch RSS feeds and automatic fire and burglar alarms that send out text messages.

The complexities of transmitting secure and reliable warnings through these systems are not trivial. There are more than 1 million police officers and another million private security guards in the US, many of whom are carrying radios that are closed to external transmissions and cell phones that will turn into bricks when the cell towers are overloaded with voice traffic. As we try to wrap our heads around these real challenges, anything that conveys a false sense of centralized control — that includes warnings without specific content and alert levels set by officials far from the scene — is mere noise, and harmful. Motivated by bureaucratic embarrassment and conceived to serve the needs of officialdom, the Department of Homeland Security’s color-coded threat alerts were a broadcast signal for a networked age, and we are safer without them.

[goof2]

Ownage, in the latest issue of Wired:

Why Color-Coded Terror Alerts Have Made Us Less Safe

I don't see much "ownage" there. The author doesn't like the system. He makes that dislike clear in the article with little reasoning. His logic amounts to "We are less safe cuz I say so bitches!".

[Looni2ns]

Ron White, the comedian, was on HBO the other night, and part of his routine dealt with the Homeland Security Threat Level. His mom called and wanted to know what to do when the level was yellow. His response - Go find a helmet. She called back and wanted to know what to do when the threat level was increased to orange. His reponse - Put on the helmet.

So, if the TL ever makes it to red, what am I supposed to do? Bend over, grab my knees, and kiss my A$$ goodbye with my helmet on?

[Homeslice]

I would agree with you if Homeland Security always kept it at orange. They have not. Here is a timeline of changes in status.

http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/history/editorial_0844.shtm

At the bottom of that website it says that it's remained Orange for all domestic flights since August 06.

Can you look at the chart below and tell me if you think the risk could honestly be described as being only one step below "Severe", for the last 3 years non-stop without a break? There have been tens of thousands of commerical flights during those 3 years, with no terrorist attacks on them. If the risk was really "High" I would have expected at least 2-3 successful attacks during those 3 years.

[goof2]

At the bottom of that website it says that it's remained Orange for all domestic flights since August 06.

Can you look at the chart below and tell me if you think the risk could honestly be described as being only one step below "Severe", for the last 3 years non-stop without a break? There have been tens of thousands of commerical flights during those 3 years, with no terrorist attacks on them. If the risk was really "High" I would have expected at least 2-3 successful attacks during those 3 years.

I think that the general threat level should be "Guarded" while airports should be "Elevated" but either way with the attacks carried out on mass transit throughout the world over the last 5 years it should be higher than the general level. The fact is that America doesn't have the manpower to cover all mass transit with the security it deserves, hence only airports having a raised level. By your "2-3 successful attacks" logic should thwarted attacks drive the threat level lower? Last month charges were filed in 5 separate terror plots in one week. Is the threat of terrorism really gone? Where do you think the threat level should be?

[Amber Lamps]

I think that the general threat level should be "Guarded" while airports should be "Elevated" but either way with the attacks carried out on mass transit throughout the world over the last 5 years it should be higher than the general level. The fact is that America doesn't have the manpower to cover all mass transit with the security it deserves, hence only airports having a raised level. By your "2-3 successful attacks" logic should thwarted attacks drive the threat level lower? Last month charges were filed in 5 separate terror plots in one week. Is the threat of terrorism really gone? Where do you think the threat level should be?

Thank you. So because we thwarted a number of attacks, that means that the level should be lowered right? Every hear the old adage that if you see 2 cock roaches, you probably have 1,000 that you can't see? Hey, they arrest thousands of burglars a year, I guess it's safe to leave our houses unlocked...:lol: I don't claim to understand exactly what is entailed with the threat level but if I'm not mistaken, the different levels come with different levels of readiness by the military, police, fire, airport security, etc like the DEFCON system, don't they? I don't think that it is JUST a catch phrase that they wave in front of the public.

[goof2]

It was compared to the DEFCON system earlier in the thread but I guess because the American public sucks at actually paying attention to anything the government was stupid for creating the system.:shrug:

[Homeslice]

I think that the general threat level should be "Guarded" while airports should be "Elevated" but either way with the attacks carried out on mass transit throughout the world over the last 5 years it should be higher than the general level. The fact is that America doesn't have the manpower to cover all mass transit with the security it deserves, hence only airports having a raised level. By your "2-3 successful attacks" logic should thwarted attacks drive the threat level lower? Last month charges were filed in 5 separate terror plots in one week. Is the threat of terrorism really gone? Where do you think the threat level should be?

I think airports have more than enough secuirty, so there is no need for a "raised level" of threat. If terrorists wanted to do some real damage, they would simply barracade a church or school and take out 200 people. That's a lot simpler than organizing a hijacking. 10 years ago they identified a weak point in our security, they took advantage of it, and now that we've raised the security of aviation, any intelligent terrorist would investigate other options.

And my whole point is, if you're going to have a "threat level", it needs to change once in awhile, or else people ignore it. If you have one of those coolant temperature gauges or voltmeters that stays in one spot all the time, do you ever pay attention to it?

[goof2]

I think airports have more than enough secuirty, so there is no need for a "raised level" of threat. If terrorists wanted to do some real damage, they would simply barracade a church or school and take out 200 people. That's a lot simpler than organizing a hijacking. 10 years ago they identified a weak point in our security, they took advantage of it, and now that we've raised the security of aviation, any intelligent terrorist would investigate other options.

And my whole point is, if you're going to have a "threat level", it needs to change once in awhile, or else people ignore it. If you have one of those coolant temperature gauges or voltmeters that stays in one spot all the time, do you ever pay attention to it?

As I said, all mass transit should have a higher level. Terrorists have demonstrated they like transit as a target in London and Spain. If you think the security in airports is too stringent where would you recommend cuts be made?

Part of what the threat level is supposed to accomplish is to have people pay attention everywhere, not just airports. Yes, airports are listed higher but people are supposed to be aware in their daily lives. As you mention above an attack can happen anywhere. As I mentioned there were charges filed over 5 separate terror plots in one week last month. There are people who want to attack us right now. The government can stop some of them, but the public needs to play a part as well. The fact that the average American cannot be bothered to pay attention to anything more than 5 feet in front of their face isn't a failure of the system, it is a failure of the average American.

Yes, none of the gauges in a modern car move but I still pay attention to them. The reason is they only move when there is a problem. I like having the gauges so I know if a problem is developing. Some stupid light or buzzer only tells me after a problem has happened. Just because modern cars are very reliable doesn't mean I no longer need to know anything about it. Having a temp gauge helps me a lot more than a overheat light if I throw the serpentine belt or the thermostat stops working.

[Homeslice]

Just because modern cars are very reliable doesn't mean I no longer need to know anything about it. Having a temp gauge helps me a lot more than a overheat light if I throw the serpentine belt or the thermostat stops working.

But the gauge isn't any better than an warning light, because the way most OEM's make them work is, there's only 2 positions the needle can be: Normal, or dead. To get a gauge that actually works the way it should, you need to buy an aftermarket one.

[goof2]

But the gauge isn't any better than an warning light, because the way most OEM's make them work is, there's only 2 positions the needle can be: Normal, or dead. To get a gauge that actually works the way it should, you need to buy an aftermarket one.

Are you sure about that? Any temp gauge I have seen will be on the bottom peg at a cold start up and will slowly rise to normal temp over the course of 5 minutes or so. Do they just program that in to fuck with people or is it actually measuring something, like the coolant temp?

I have less experience with modern cars actually running hot, but a late 80s Accord with a broken thermostat and an early 2000s Explorer with a leaking radiator both had fully functional temperature gauges. The gauge was especially helpful in the Accord as I had another 200 miles to go and it was the middle of summer. I could turn the heat on and off as needed to remove extra heat from the engine. I wouldn't have been able to do so with just an idiot light.

[Amber Lamps]

God Dammit! How in the fuck did I get sucked back into this bullshit argument?!?:lol:

[Homeslice]

Are you sure about that? Any temp gauge I have seen will be on the bottom peg at a cold start up and will slowly rise to normal temp over the course of 5 minutes or so. Do they just program that in to fuck with people or is it actually measuring something, like the coolant temp?


The gauge just sits there at zero for the first couple minutes, then all of a sudden when the thermostat opens, it finally starts moving, and goes up to the "normal" position and stays in the exact same place throughout your trip. You could be sitting in stop and go traffic, or cruising on the highway, but the needle stays frozen in the same spot. At least in most cars I've driven. Not to mention they don't give you any markings on the gauge to indicate what the temperature is.

Same thing with oil pressure gauges. Only on certain sports cars is the gauge actually marked with any PSI measurements, and on most cars you don't even see the needle moving in response to blipping the throttle, as it should.

Anyway, it's just an analogy. A measurement that never changes in response to current events is meaningless and does not generate involvement or interest from the public in any way.

[Tmall]

The gauge just sits there at zero for the first couple minutes, then all of a sudden when the thermostat opens, it finally starts moving, and goes up to the "normal" position and stays in the exact same place throughout your trip. You could be sitting in stop and go traffic, or cruising on the highway, but the needle stays frozen in the same spot. At least in most cars I've driven. Not to mention they don't give you any markings on the gauge to indicate what the temperature is.

Same thing with oil pressure gauges. Only on certain sports cars is the gauge actually marked with any PSI measurements, and on most cars you don't even see the needle moving in response to blipping the throttle, as it should.

Anyway, it's just an analogy. A measurement that never changes in response to current events is meaningless and does not generate involvement or interest from the public in any way.


I'm pretty sure your oil pump is mechanically driven. So I understand what you're saying. But in most cases there should be a pressure regulating valve/spring that just bleeds off anything above a certain pressure. Once a preset limit is reached, it doesn't exceed it.

[goof2]

The gauge just sits there at zero for the first couple minutes, then all of a sudden when the thermostat opens, it finally starts moving, and goes up to the "normal" position and stays in the exact same place throughout your trip. You could be sitting in stop and go traffic, or cruising on the highway, but the needle stays frozen in the same spot. At least in most cars I've driven. Not to mention they don't give you any markings on the gauge to indicate what the temperature is.

Same thing with oil pressure gauges. Only on certain sports cars is the gauge actually marked with any PSI measurements, and on most cars you don't even see the needle moving in response to blipping the throttle, as it should.

Anyway, it's just an analogy. A measurement that never changes in response to current events is meaningless and does not generate involvement or interest from the public in any way.

From watching the gauge creep up on cold days so the heat can be used instead of just circulating cold air I can tell you none of the cars I have driven with a temp gauge do what you are describing above.:idk:

OK, so what system would you suggest for impressing on the American public the need to be aware? Also as I asked before, if you think Airport security is too onerous where do you think cuts should be made?