Speaking of Buell and the AMA/DMG Roadracing Series...

[z06boy]

Things that make you go humm...

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jun/090602a.htm


Buell Now The Official Bike of DMG
by dean adams
Tuesday, June 02, 2009
DMG execs just announced this morning at a Buell media day that Buell is now the official safety bike of the DMG roadrace series. Presumably it will be replacing the safety car, but won't be in use at Elkhart.

One of the most controversial moves that DMG made after buying the AMA series from the AMA's Rob Dingmann was to make the 1100cc, 150 horepower Buell legal in Daytona Sport Bike & Supersport.

There was wide speculation at Miller last weekend that the Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda factory and or factory-supported teams will be exiting the current AMA/DMG roadrace series after this season concludes.

ENDS

[Rider]

I guess thats one way to get Buell to ever win a race.... Make all the bikes in the race a Buell.

[Trip]

Fuck AMA, it's a piece of shit series and organization anyway.

[Tmall]

Exactly! Its been downhill since they started giving Honda a displacement advantage to run their 2 cylinder bike!

Stupid racing series!

[Mikey]

Exactly! Its been downhill since they started giving Honda a displacement advantage to run their 2 cylinder bike!

Stupid racing series!

Yeah! Racing a 1000cc twin against 750cc I-4s is totally unacceptable! There's no reason anyone should ever need an advantage like that! I mean, it's not like they are racing a water-cooled 1125cc twin against a bunch of 600cc I-4s or anything!

[Tmall]

Yeah! Racing a 1000cc twin against 750cc I-4s is totally unacceptable! There's no reason anyone should ever need an advantage like that! I mean, it's not like they are racing a water-cooled 1125cc twin against a bunch of 600cc I-4s or anything!

Meh, an advantage is an advantage.

Just pissed that your reason to bash buell was also used by one of the big 4?

After all, they never added weight to the rc51 when it was dominating. Nope, everybody loved it when nickey was kicking ass on it.

The only difference is that buell makes shitty bikes that are beating the Japanese sewing machines. Now, you're all butt hurt about it.

Oh well :idk:

[Tmall]

Just for the record..
When buell was running a 1400cc air cooled and was losing, did anybody care?

[marko138]

Meh, an advantage is an advantage.

Just pissed that your reason to bash buell was also used by one of the big 4?

After all, they never added weight to the rc51 when it was dominating. Nope, everybody loved it when nickey was kicking ass on it.

The only difference is that buell makes shitty bikes that are beating the Japanese sewing machines. Now, you're all butt hurt about it.

Oh well :idk:
:lol:

[Trip]

I say let's let ducati bring the 1098 and add it to the mix. Buell would still have a cc advantage and no wins. :lol:

[Tmall]

I say let's let ducati bring the 1098 and add it to the mix. Buell would still have a cc advantage and no wins. :lol:

If the rules say they can, the privateers should be doing it and whomping on the buells. If nobody chooses to do it, who's fault is that?

[Trip]

If the rules say they can, the privateers should be doing it and whomping on the buells. If nobody chooses to do it, who's fault is that?

Cause they say they can't, the ducati riders have to use the 848.

[Rider]

AMA is letting the 1098R (1198cc) run in the SBK class. It's not doing too bad considering on the smaller compact tracks you cant get all that power to the ground because the thing wants the wheelie out of every corner.

[z06boy]

:stirpot: :lol

[Amber Lamps]

Exactly! Its been downhill since they started giving Honda a displacement advantage to run their 2 cylinder bike!

Stupid racing series!


Yea but was the RC-51 the OFFICIAL bike of the AMA?:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Oh btw I fucking bitched and called every Nicky Hayden ball licking bastard out on it too! The year that NH won the AMA championship, Mlladin had like 2 or 3 DNFs, one from a tire failure I believe. Like I said the only way Nicki Hayden has ever won any championship is for the really talented guys to have a disastrous season and/or for him to have a huge advantage.

He won the Formula Extreme series on a 900 when the other teams were running 750s

He won Superbike with a 1000cc V-twin (WSBK spec bike with approx 5x Yosh Suzuki's budget btw) against 750cc inline 4s, the top man in the field (Mlladin) had a terrible year and he still barely won.

He won a MotoGp championship on the dominant bike when Rossi had one of his worst seasons ever and still would not have won if Rossi hadn't crashed in the last race.

[tommymac]

I guess thats one way to get Buell to ever win a race.... Make all the bikes in the race a Buell.

Thats if one of them finishes :lol:

Tom

[Amber Lamps]

AMA is letting the 1098R (1198cc) run in the SBK class. It's not doing too bad considering on the smaller compact tracks you cant get all that power to the ground because the thing wants the wheelie out of every corner.

Yea but stock for stock, the Buell makes 146hp and 82 ft/lbs of torque and the average 600 makes what 105 hp and 45 ft/lbs of torque? That's a bit different than the difference between the GSXR1000 and the 1098.

[Dave]

Yea but stock for stock, the Buell makes 146hp and 82 ft/lbs of torque and the average 600 makes what 105 hp and 45 ft/lbs of torque? That's a bit different than the difference between the GSXR1000 and the 1098.

troof. You wouldnt put a ninja 250 and a rgv250 in the same class. At the same time though dmg gave too much advantage

[Rsv1000R]

Yea but stock for stock, the Buell makes 146hp and 82 ft/lbs of torque and the average 600 makes what 105 hp and 45 ft/lbs of torque? That's a bit different than the difference between the GSXR1000 and the 1098.

Are you kidding? I'm pretty sure Superstock 600's are closer to 140hp.

[Rider]

Yea but stock for stock, the Buell makes 146hp and 82 ft/lbs of torque and the average 600 makes what 105 hp and 45 ft/lbs of torque? That's a bit different than the difference between the GSXR1000 and the 1098.

Agreed, I wasn't trying to justify the Buell being in the 600 class, I was trying to say that the Buell "SHOULD" be competitive in the SBK class along with the Duc and it certainly wouldn't be. 1100-1200 Vtwins should easily be capable of competing with 1-4 liter bikes.

Obviously AMA and HD are in bed together so the AMA is doing everything possible to promote Buell and to get them a championship.

[marko138]

Haters of America, all of you.

[Rsv1000R]

Haters of America, all of you.

Austria iirc

[Trip]

Austria iirc

hee hee

[Amber Lamps]

Are you kidding? I'm pretty sure Superstock 600's are closer to 140hp.

I said stock for stock. Not what you can get out of them. Besides, one of our guys just posted a 110hp R6 with a PCIII, a slip-on, modified header, etc... I'm not completely sure what you can change in Daytona Sport Bike but I doubt it would be enough to gain 35 fucking horses!:lol: Man that's 30% over stock! That would put my bike in the 200 hp category! BTW you get even less modifications allowed in the Superstock class which is why you haven't heard shit from Buell in that class:lol:

[Rider]

I said stock for stock. Not what you can get out of them. Besides, one of our guys just posted a 110hp R6 with a PCIII, a slip-on, modified header, etc... I'm not completely sure what you can change in Daytona Sport Bike but I doubt it would be enough to gain 35 fucking horses!:lol: Man that's 30% over stock! That would put my bike in the 200 hp category! BTW you get even less modifications allowed in the Superstock class which is why you haven't heard shit from Buell in that class:lol:

140 is reasonable on a modified 600. Look at the WSBK bikes. They are getting 215 out of a those 1000 I-4's.

[Trip]

AMA is letting the 1098R (1198cc) run in the SBK class. It's not doing too bad considering on the smaller compact tracks you cant get all that power to the ground because the thing wants the wheelie out of every corner.

look what it's doing in World SBK... Imagine the 1125 out there racing against Spies on his R1. Laugh...

[Amber Lamps]

Haters of America, all of you.


I just want us to win fair and square! What good is it really for an "American" bike, who's engine and almost all of it's major chassis components are made in other countries, to win a championship with a 500+cc advantage over the competition? Exactly how proud of that are you going to be?

[marko138]

I just want us to win fair and square! What good is it really for an "American" bike, who's engine and almost all of it's major chassis components are made in other countries, to win a championship with a 500+cc advantage over the competition? Exactly how proud of that are you going to be?
Real fucking proud buddy.

[Amber Lamps]

140 is reasonable on a modified 600. Look at the WSBK bikes. They are getting 215 out of a those 1000 I-4's.

Yea but I'm not sure what all they can modify in THIS class. I guess if this was the 600 SUPERBIKE class, I could see 140hp...:idk:

[Amber Lamps]

Real fucking proud buddy.

Awwww.... now you are just fucking with me! I actually wished that Moto Cznk(sp) guy could have done something...

Believe it or not, I would love to see a truly American bike kick some ass in ANY race series.:pat: I don't see it happening unless Victory does something incredible in the next few years...

[marko138]

Awwww.... now you are just fucking with me! I actually wished that Moto Cznk(sp) guy could have done something...

Believe it or not, I would love to see a truly American bike kick some ass in ANY race series.:pat: I don't see it happening unless Victory does something incredible in the next few years...
Because I'm sure every part on the Victory is made in the USA too, right.

[Rsv1000R]

Here are the rules for Daytona Sportsbike from last year.
1. HORSEPOWER AND WEIGHT LIMITS

A. Minimum weight is 360 lbs in the exact condition the machine finishes any competition activity (qualifying or race final) without the addition of fluids or other items of any kind.

B. Once the machine weight has been established, the motorcycle will be tested for power output on the official series dynamometer. Power is limited to one (1) horsepower for every three (3) pounds of machine weight, up to a maximum of 140 horsepower. Fuel may be added to allow for the dynamometer testing after the official weight has been recorded.

C. In no case may more than 25 lbs of ballast be added to any machine, said ballast to be added/fastened in accordance with approved mounting procedures.

D. If necessary, specific motorcycles may be allowed a variance from the standard power to weight ratio to ensure parity in competition. Where such variances are allowed, they will be published on the TIF for the machines affected.

E. Combined motorcycle and rider weights will be used to determine power limits starting in the 2010 season.

3 lb's/hp based on dyno testing. and weight adjusted to level competition.

[Rider]

Here are the rules for Daytona Sportsbike from last year.


3 lb's/hp based on dyno testing. and weight adjusted to level competition.

So does that mean the 1125R is supposed to be 100lbs more than the rest of the I-4's?

[Rsv1000R]

Yea but I'm not sure what all they can modify in THIS class. I guess if this was the 600 SUPERBIKE class, I could see 140hp...:idk:

You can find the actual rules here (http://www.amaproracing.com/competition/index.cfm?cid=20458)

Now if you wanted to claim DMG was bending over for Rotax, I might listen as all of the Literbikes in Supersport and Daytona Sportsbike are made by rotax.

[askmrjesus]

Haters of America, all of you.

Waterboard them!

Oops.

Wrong thread.

My bad.

JC

[Rsv1000R]

So does that mean the 1125R is supposed to be 100lbs more than the rest of the I-4's?

Only if the 600's are making 100hp, but like I said I'm pretty sure they're closer to 140.

[Particle Man]

Waterboard them!

Oops.

Wrong thread.

My bad.

JC
:lol

[Amber Lamps]

Here are the rules for Daytona Sportsbike from last year.


3 lb's/hp based on dyno testing. and weight adjusted to level competition.

Yep that's MAXIMUM numbers and does that mean that they can do whatever they want to the bike to achieve those figures? I'd imagine not. It's funny but those numbers are almost exactly what the Buell comes with stock and it's why Suzuki can't run the GSXR750 or Ducati their newer V-Twins. They make too much power out of the box! Also, it doesn't address torque in your snippet there. I tell you what, you could strap on 25lbs to the GSXR750 and it would easily clean house in this series!

On the other hand, umm even with this advantage team Buell hasn't been doing too well here lately....:lol: If they don't win this championship under these conditions, they should pack up their tents and never darken the doors of AMA racing again!:lol:

I know this is going overboard but I swear that they started the rolling start in this class to benefit Buell. I bet a standing start is a bitch on one of those dogs!:lol:

[Amber Lamps]

So does that mean the 1125R is supposed to be 100lbs more than the rest of the I-4's?

Nah, you're limited to 1 hp/3lb but you certainly can make less. Stock the Buell makes approx 1 hp/3lb. A 600 makes about 1hp/4lb approximately.

[Rider]

Nah, you're limited to 1 hp/3lb but you certainly can make less. Stock the Buell makes approx 1 hp/3lb. A 600 makes about 1hp/4lb approximately.

Ok but I doubt the 1125R is running that class stock.

[marko138]

Ok but I doubt the 1125R is running that class stock.
Damn near.

[Amber Lamps]

Ok but I doubt the 1125R is running that class stock.

To their "credit" they would almost have to be to make the hp limit. If they so much as change the heat range in their spark plugs it could put them over!:lol:

To be honest, I actually believe that they have shot themselves in the foot here. They started out strong but now the other teams have gotten their bikes sorted out and have figured out how to make the aforementioned 140 ponies and keep their bikes running. I also think that at first the factories were kinda, "who cares" about this series but after getting spanked a couple of times, they have stepped to the plate with some more support. Hence, the successive wins by 600s in this class. I will seriously laugh my fucking ass off if the "Official Bike of DMG/AMA Racing" doesn't win this series! To me that would be a HUGE slap in the face to Eric Buell considering the rules. All you Buell guys might want to take a vacation from the site or put me on ignore if that happens!:lol:

[Trip]

I laugh everytime a 1100cc gets beat by a freak 600cc bike on that track. That's incredibly sad in the professional world. I wonder what the Euros think of the pathetic excuse for a series.

[Mikey]

Meh, an advantage is an advantage.

Just pissed that your reason to bash buell was also used by one of the big 4?

After all, they never added weight to the rc51 when it was dominating. Nope, everybody loved it when nickey was kicking ass on it.

The only difference is that buell makes shitty bikes that are beating the Japanese sewing machines. Now, you're all butt hurt about it.

Oh well :idk:

Butt hurt? Don't flatter yourself. Honestly, I think it's pathetic at best.

For the record, though, I've never been one to bash Buell. I really like their streetbikes, particularly the Xb12S.

I do, however, think that if Erik wants to go roadracing, he should pull up his big girl panties and race the 1125 where it belongs- Superbike. ;)

[Amber Lamps]

Butt hurt? Don't flatter yourself. Honestly, I think it's pathetic at best.

For the record, though, I've never been one to bash Buell. I really like their streetbikes, particularly the Xb12S.

I do, however, think that if Erik wants to go roadracing, he should pull up his big girl panties and race the 1125 where it belongs- Superbike. ;)

Agreed!

[Cutty72]

Ok but I doubt the 1125R is running that class stock.

Add
-Race pipe (slip on)
-Tuner
-Chain drive
-Race brake pads
-Race tires
-Full fairings

The first races were done without the tuner as it wasn't working correctly yet.

[Dave]

Butt hurt? Don't flatter yourself. Honestly, I think it's pathetic at best.

For the record, though, I've never been one to bash Buell. I really like their streetbikes, particularly the Xb12S.

I do, however, think that if Erik wants to go roadracing, he should pull up his big girl panties and race the 1125 where it belongs- Superbike. ;)

Wsbk. bmw needs some company out back :lmao:

[Dave]

Haters of America, all of you.

of what its become? oh yeah. not a whole lot to love about this place anymore

[Amber Lamps]

Wsbk. bmw needs some company out back :lmao:

Troy Corser was looking a bit lonley in Utah...

[Dave]

Troy Corser was looking a bit lonley in Utah...

i really feel bad for him considering his polar shift in positions from last year, still i tend to forget all that when i hear the announcers go on a ten plus minute apology campaign for the bike and team.

who am i kidding? Troy, if you are reading this these are for you buddy
:boobs:

















what? im not satan :lol:

[Amber Lamps]

i really feel bad for him considering his polar shift in positions from last year, still i tend to forget all that when i hear the announcers go on a ten plus minute apology campaign for the bike and team.

who am i kidding? Troy, if you are reading this these are for you buddy
:boobs:

what? im not satan :lol:



Yea it's amazing what happens to some of these guys careers... I'm guessing Nicky Hayden will be riding the Buell in World Super Sport in a couple years...:lol:

[marko138]

Yea it's amazing what happens to some of these guys careers... I'm guessing Nicky Hayden will be riding the Buell in World Super Sport in a couple years...:lol:
You = ultimate American Hater.

[Papa_Complex]

It's funny how now that you guys have Buells in sportbike, we do too. OK, maybe not, since Colin Fraser runs the series here and is tied to DMG down there. However you slice it though, there's just something wrong with this picture (Steve Crevier, for you who are old enough to remember him racing down there):

http://www.morallyambiguous.net/multimedia/gallery/galleries/090521-24_cmp/track/_thumbs/700x500-P5242390.JPG

How, in the molten offal pits of Hell, do you make a V-twin be as wide as a bus?!

[tommymac]

He used to race the TLr with suzuki and I think he was on the ill fated harley team in ama superbike.

Tom

[Rsv1000R]

How, in the molten offal pits of Hell, do you make a V-twin be as wide as a bus?!

Make elephant ears out of the radiators?

BTW for the math impaired a 360 lb minimum weight and 3hp/# means they expect the minimum hp to be 120 or so.

[Amber Lamps]

Make elephant ears out of the radiators?

BTW for the math impaired a 360 lb minimum weight and 3hp/# means they expect the minimum hp to be 120 or so.

Well okay but that still isn't 140 hp and exactly which of these bikes are 360 lbs stock? I admit that I can't completely figure out what class is what anymore....:idk:

Old Superbike is New Superbike with some old Superstock-like rules

Old Formula Extreme is New Daytona Sport Bike, right?

Old Superstock is gone

Old Supersport is New Superstock that only kids can play in, right?

I'm seriously not sure...

[shmike]

Make elephant ears out of the radiators?

BTW for the math impaired a 360 lb minimum weight and 3hp/# means they expect the minimum hp to be 120 or so.

No, they expect the maximum hp to be 120 at 360 lbs.

Over 130 at the wheel of a 600 is a very big number.

140 = "reasonable" :lol

[Papa_Complex]

Make elephant ears out of the radiators?

BTW for the math impaired a 360 lb minimum weight and 3hp/# means they expect the minimum hp to be 120 or so.

My V-4 Honda is significantly narrower than the racing Buells, though it has side mounted rads.

[Rsv1000R]

No, they expect the maximum hp to be 120 at 360 lbs.

Over 130 at the wheel of a 600 is a very big number.

140 = "reasonable" :lol

Your right, 120 max at 360.

And while I'm fine about the 130 being a lot for 600 streetbikes, I'd like to see some dyno numbers of the factory prepared 600's. It could be that's where the 120 came from (120x3=360), But I think I recall reading 130 numbers somewhere. :idk:

Point being DMG is not ganging up on the 600's and conspiring to make Buells win.

[Rsv1000R]

My V-4 Honda is significantly narrower than the racing Buells, though it has side mounted rads.

I'd still bet the twin's engine is narrower than your v4's (well at least at the cylinders).

Maybe they're designed as landing pads?

[marko138]

I'd still bet the twin's engine is narrower than your v4's (well at least at the cylinders).

Maybe they're designed as landing pads?
Actually, on the street versions they are designed to absorb impact in the event of a get off. And they are reasonably cheap to replace.

[Amber Lamps]

Your right, 120 max at 360.

And while I'm fine about the 130 being a lot for 600 streetbikes, I'd like to see some dyno numbers of the factory prepared 600's. It could be that's where the 120 came from (120x3=360), But I think I recall reading 130 numbers somewhere. :idk:

Point being DMG is not ganging up on the 600's and conspiring to make Buells win.


See I don't believe that DMG is "ganging up on the 600s" but I DO believe that the rules were specifically written to allow Buell to race that bike in this class. PERIOD.

[Rsv1000R]

See I don't believe that DMG is "ganging up on the 600s" but I DO believe that the rules were specifically written to allow Buell to race that bike in this class. PERIOD.

What's wrong with that?

One of the things DMG did was to consolidate a number of classes together, trying to make the classes they kept revelevent. I also know they're trying to increase the attendence at the Daytona 200, and they did want to tap in to the Harley crowd that's there by giving them some reason to show up, but as long as they're being fair, we shouldn't be getting our panties all wound up.

[Mikey]

What's wrong with that?

One of the things DMG did was to consolidate a number of classes together, trying to make the classes they kept revelevent. I also know they're trying to increase the attendence at the Daytona 200, and they did want to tap in to the Harley crowd that's there by giving them some reason to show up, but as long as they're being fair, we shouldn't be getting our panties all wound up.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- if DMG wanted to race the Buell to bring HD fans in, that's cool. All they had to do was put it where it belongs- in Superbike.

If I was Erik, and they approached me wanting to have my 1125cc bike race against a bunch of 600s, I'd honestly be insulted.

[marko138]

What's wrong with that?

One of the things DMG did was to consolidate a number of classes together, trying to make the classes they kept revelevent. I also know they're trying to increase the attendence at the Daytona 200, and they did want to tap in to the Harley crowd that's there by giving them some reason to show up, but as long as they're being fair, we shouldn't be getting our panties all wound up.
Tigger gets his panties wadded up over absolutely everything. In fact, he is a panty wad.

[nhgunnut]

I say let's let ducati bring the 1098 and add it to the mix. Buell would still have a cc advantage and no wins. :lol:

Not that it matters much but the 1098r is 1198 ccs

[Papa_Complex]

I've said it before and I'll say it again- if DMG wanted to race the Buell to bring HD fans in, that's cool. All they had to do was put it where it belongs- in Superbike.

If I was Erik, and they approached me wanting to have my 1125cc bike race against a bunch of 600s, I'd honestly be insulted.

Considering where they seem to be finishing, he should consider it a compliment.

[Amber Lamps]

Considering where they seem to be finishing, he should consider it a compliment.

Haha! Yea I said that too! They're getting their asses kicked now. So basically a liter class Aprillia, an 1125cc Buell and an 849cc Ducati can't hang with the 600cc Jap bikes.:lol:

[Rsv1000R]

So basically a liter class Aprillia, an 1125cc Buell and an 849cc Ducati can't hang with the 600cc Jap bikes.:lol:

So a twin designed in 2000-2001, a 1125 that was designed as a street engine, and an italian 858 twin have a fight against 600 I4's have get revised every few years and are raced by the factory?

Would you like me to explain (again) why twins don't make as much power as I4's of the same size and never will?

[Papa_Complex]

So a twin designed in 2000-2001, a 1125 that was designed as a street engine, and an italian 858 twin have a fight against 600 I4's have get revised every few years and are raced by the factory?

Would you like me to explain (again) why twins don't make as much power as I4's of the same size and never will?

Go right ahead, as long as you don't discount the usefulness of torque on corner exits.

[Amber Lamps]

So a twin designed in 2000-2001, a 1125 that was designed as a street engine, and an italian 858 twin have a fight against 600 I4's have get revised every few years and are raced by the factory?

Would you like me to explain (again) why twins don't make as much power as I4's of the same size and never will?


Well then maybe they shouldn't race instead of expecting the sanctioning body to make special rules for them. Listen to you make excuses for them. This would be like breaking all the other runner's legs so cripples could be competitive in the Boston marathon. This is forcing coaches to take slow,fat kids that can't hit on the baseball team. This is forcing Toyota to put what is basically a Chevy motor in their cars to be allowed to compete in NASCAR because their engines were too light and made too much power. Everyone should get a chance to play... no they shouldn't.

Why not have Buell and everyone else actually produce a bike that is competitive. Just because your company is too fucking stupid or mired in tradition to make a modern motorcycle engine... but see here's where the V-Twin faithful lavish praise on their superior design and exceptional power delivery. You can't have it both ways. Either your bikes/engines suck and require concessions to be able to compete or they are outstanding examples of engineering and motorcycle excellence that should be able to compete on their own merit. You know when Honda had that 250cc advantage in AMA Superbike it was pathetic BUT at least it wasn't an almost DOUBLE displacement advantage! Yeesh! :lol:

[Rsv1000R]

Go right ahead, as long as you don't discount the usefulness of torque on corner exits.

It isn't the torque, it's the powerband, After taking rpm and torque at the rear wheel into account there shouldn't be any difference, 100 hp is 100 hp. Now maybe a street tuned twin will have a wider powerband that a peaky 600.
Hp is torque over a period of time, gearing will change torque, but not hp. So by the time you change the gearing of a 10,000 rpm twin to match a 15,000 I4, you lose 33% of your torque.

As to why a twin won't make the same hp is valve area and rpm. The bigger valves of a twin take up more space across the chamber, and the valve area doesn't increase as fast as displacement does, so you end up with less valve comparably, and the mass of the valve is a key limit to rpm and cam profile and spring life. Smaller valves have less mass and can rev higher. Hp is all about torque over time, higher rpm if you can maintain torque makes more hp.

F1 engines and now MotoGP engine show a similar development paths. More smaller cylinders that rev higher, with exotic methods to close the valves.

[Dave]

It isn't the torque, it's the powerband, After taking rpm and torque at the rear wheel into account there shouldn't be any difference, 100 hp is 100 hp. Now maybe a street tuned twin will have a wider powerband that a peaky 600.
Hp is torque over a period of time, gearing will change torque, but not hp. So by the time you change the gearing of a 10,000 rpm twin to match a 15,000 I4, you lose 33% of your torque.

As to why a twin won't make the same hp is valve area and rpm. The bigger valves of a twin take up more space across the chamber, and the valve area doesn't increase as fast as displacement does, so you end up with less valve comparably, and the mass of the valve is a key limit to rpm and cam profile and spring life. Smaller valves have less mass and can rev higher. Hp is all about torque over time, higher rpm if you can maintain torque makes more hp.

F1 engines and now MotoGP engine show a similar development paths. More smaller cylinders that rev higher, with exotic methods to close the valves.

power pulses as well. More cylinders can do more work more often.

[Amber Lamps]

It isn't the torque, it's the powerband, After taking rpm and torque at the rear wheel into account there shouldn't be any difference, 100 hp is 100 hp. Now maybe a street tuned twin will have a wider powerband that a peaky 600.
Hp is torque over a period of time, gearing will change torque, but not hp. So by the time you change the gearing of a 10,000 rpm twin to match a 15,000 I4, you lose 33% of your torque.

As to why a twin won't make the same hp is valve area and rpm. The bigger valves of a twin take up more space across the chamber, and the valve area doesn't increase as fast as displacement does, so you end up with less valve comparably, and the mass of the valve is a key limit to rpm and cam profile and spring life. Smaller valves have less mass and can rev higher. Hp is all about torque over time, higher rpm if you can maintain torque makes more hp.

F1 engines and now MotoGP engine show a similar development paths. More smaller cylinders that rev higher, with exotic methods to close the valves.

Hmmm... so more cylinders a "better" way to go then? So why reward those companies that refuse to see this "truth" with lopsided rules? Dude, I refuse to believe that you honestly think that it's okay for to go this far just to include Buell. The bike has an almost 50% hp advantage and a 30-40% torque advantage stock. Shit maybe Victory should develop an American single, with the right contacts DMG would let them run a 2000cc thumper in this class.:lol:

[Rsv1000R]

power pulses as well. More cylinders can do more work more often.

The pulses affect traction, but the amount of displacement per revolution doesn't change.

[marko138]

Hmmm... so more cylinders a "better" way to go then? So why reward those companies that refuse to see this "truth" with lopsided rules? Dude, I refuse to believe that you honestly think that it's okay for to go this far just to include Buell. The bike has an almost 50% hp advantage and a 30-40% torque advantage stock. Shit maybe Victory should develop an American single, with the right contacts DMG would let them run a 2000cc thumper in this class.:lol:
50% HP advantage? Are you high?

[Amber Lamps]

50% HP advantage? Are you high?

Stock 600 around 100hp

Stock Buell 146hp according to Buell

[Tmall]

Stock 600 around 100hp

Stock Buell 146hp according to Buell

Strange how one estimate is conservative and at the wheel. And the other is peak claimed at the crank....

My 2000 r6 supposedly made 120 at the crank. My buddies 07 puts 116 to the wheel with a full system and a custom dyno tune..

The 1125 with tuning and race system might put 130-135 to the wheel.

Stock they see mid 120s at the wheel.

[Papa_Complex]

It isn't the torque, it's the powerband, After taking rpm and torque at the rear wheel into account there shouldn't be any difference, 100 hp is 100 hp. Now maybe a street tuned twin will have a wider powerband that a peaky 600.
Hp is torque over a period of time, gearing will change torque, but not hp. So by the time you change the gearing of a 10,000 rpm twin to match a 15,000 I4, you lose 33% of your torque.

As to why a twin won't make the same hp is valve area and rpm. The bigger valves of a twin take up more space across the chamber, and the valve area doesn't increase as fast as displacement does, so you end up with less valve comparably, and the mass of the valve is a key limit to rpm and cam profile and spring life. Smaller valves have less mass and can rev higher. Hp is all about torque over time, higher rpm if you can maintain torque makes more hp.

F1 engines and now MotoGP engine show a similar development paths. More smaller cylinders that rev higher, with exotic methods to close the valves.

Curve on the Buells is as flat as a table top (which may be part of their problem).

[Rsv1000R]

Curve on the Buells is as flat as a table top (which may be part of their problem).

Which is great tuning for a street engine.

[Homeslice]

1100-1200 Vtwins should easily be capable of competing with 1-4 liter bikes.
.

If it's a Ducati.......but not a Buell. Lol. When is the last time a Buell had the top-end of a Duc or even an Aprilia.

[Rider]

If it's a Ducati.......but not a Buell. Lol. When is the last time a Buell had the top-end of a Duc or even an Aprilia.

Never. That was my point. Buell should be able to but they can't.

[Homeslice]

Go right ahead, as long as you don't discount the usefulness of torque on corner exits.

But if the I-4 is turning like 10K at the apex, he's sitting near his torque peak anyway.

[Dave]

But if the I-4 is turning like 10K at the apex, he's sitting near his torque peak anyway.

and if he isint its a kick of the left foot away

[Rsv1000R]

Hmmm... so more cylinders a "better" way to go then? So why reward those companies that refuse to see this "truth" with lopsided rules? Dude, I refuse to believe that you honestly think that it's okay for to go this far just to include Buell. The bike has an almost 50% hp advantage and a 30-40% torque advantage stock. Shit maybe Victory should develop an American single, with the right contacts DMG would let them run a 2000cc thumper in this class.:lol:

I didn't say better, I said more hp, nowhere does that mean it's better. I didn't care my bike had about the same hp as a 600, I did care that it had more torque and it's at a lower rpm, and it delivered the power once per rpm instead of twice.

And like I said that torque advantage goes away once you equalize the max rpm.

[Papa_Complex]

But if the I-4 is turning like 10K at the apex, he's sitting near his torque peak anyway.

"If", which means that absolute gearing is less of an issue for the V-2.

[Rsv1000R]

I'm guessing the first edition of the 1125 wasn't intended to go racing with, which would keep it from being competitive with Liter 4's and 1200 ducati's.

BTW Ducati solves one of the problems with twins with their desmotronic valve train. But they have to put expensive parts in the bottom end so it'll withstand 14,000 rpm. Which they don't really do for the street versions due to cost, and with the racing classes limiting engine to stock crankshafts they have a harder time getting the rpm (or life) out of the engine.

[Rsv1000R]

"If", which means that absolute gearing is less of an issue for the V-2.

True, also same reason they sometimes have fewer gears.

[Amber Lamps]

Strange how one estimate is conservative and at the wheel. And the other is peak claimed at the crank....

My 2000 r6 supposedly made 120 at the crank. My buddies 07 puts 116 to the wheel with a full system and a custom dyno tune..

The 1125 with tuning and race system might put 130-135 to the wheel.

Stock they see mid 120s at the wheel.

It's not "strange", I got that number directly from Buell, if they are lying then okay. I didn't make the number up or anything. As far as the 600s go, I've seen many dyno runs from 600s...they make about 110-110hp stock.:idk:

Okay I check Motorcyclist and the 1125 they dyno'd made 129hp and 82 ft/lbs.

A 600RR made 106hp and 45 ft/lbs

There is that better? So your bike "only" makes 20 more horses and 35 more ft/lbs of torque stock... well what was I thinking? You're right in light of this new evidence I declare that it is perfectly acceptable for Buell to race this 1125cc bike against 600s. Heck, a 1098 only dyno's in at 139hp why not just strap an extra 20 lbs onto it and let it race in this class too?

[marko138]

It's not "strange", I got that number directly from Buell, if they are lying then okay. I didn't make the number up or anything. As far as the 600s go, I've seen many dyno runs from 600s...they make about 110-110hp stock.:idk:

Okay I check Motorcyclist and the 1125 they dyno'd made 129hp and 82 ft/lbs.

A 600RR made 106hp and 45 ft/lbs

There is that better? So your bike "only" makes 20 more horses and 35 more ft/lbs of torque stock... well what was I thinking? You're right in light of this new evidence I declare that it is perfectly acceptable for Buell to race this 1125cc bike against 600s. Heck, a 1098 only dyno's in at 139hp why not just strap an extra 20 lbs onto it and let it race in this class too?
I knew you'd come around.

[Papa_Complex]

In the Parts Canada series, the Buells are making 30-32 more lb-ft of torque than the 600s are (which make in the low 50s). No idea about horsepower (didn't get to see the dyno results).

[Amber Lamps]

I didn't say better, I said more hp, nowhere does that mean it's better. I didn't care my bike had about the same hp as a 600, I did care that it had more torque and it's at a lower rpm, and it delivered the power once per rpm instead of twice.

And like I said that torque advantage goes away once you equalize the max rpm.

Hmmm... I'm not as smart as you so maybe I don't understand. Are you saying that there comes a point when 80+ ft/lbs of torque is not "better" than 45 ft/lbs of torque?

[Rsv1000R]

It's not "strange", I got that number directly from Buell, if they are lying then okay. I didn't make the number up or anything. As far as the 600s go, I've seen many dyno runs from 600s...they make about 110-110hp stock.:idk:

Okay I check Motorcyclist and the 1125 they dyno'd made 129hp and 82 ft/lbs.

A 600RR made 106hp and 45 ft/lbs

There is that better? So your bike "only" makes 20 more horses and 35 more ft/lbs of torque stock... well what was I thinking? You're right in light of this new evidence I declare that it is perfectly acceptable for Buell to race this 1125cc bike against 600s. Heck, a 1098 only dyno's in at 139hp why not just strap an extra 20 lbs onto it and let it race in this class too?

It makes 20 more hp, once you account for gearing the torque isn't going to be much different between them.

And all you need is to get the AMA to okay your 1098, and you're all set. BTW I think the GSXR750 only makes 129hp......

[Amber Lamps]

I knew you'd come around.


You know Mark, I sure wish yo would have come to the rally. I bet you would have been a shitload of fun!!!

[Rsv1000R]

Hmmm... I'm not as smart as you so maybe I don't understand. Are you saying that there comes a point when 80+ ft/lbs of torque is not "better" than 45 ft/lbs of torque?

Yes. If the 45 is at twice the rpm of the 80 it's the equivalent of 90 ft/lbs...

[Amber Lamps]

It makes 20 more hp, once you account for gearing the torque isn't going to be much different between them.

And all you need is to get the AMA to okay your 1098, and you're all set. BTW I think the GSXR750 only makes 129hp......

Yea I know... I wonder why no one is racing it? Come on I bet the rules won't allow it or someone would. I'm calling Michael Jordan! Yo Mike how'd you like to race in a class that you can't lose in? Since the rules use a rider+bike power to weight set-up, I might have a chance even with my fat ass!:lol:

[Rsv1000R]

Yea I know... I wonder why no one is racing it? Come on I bet the rules won't allow it or someone would. I'm calling Michael Jordan! Yo Mike how'd you like to race in a class that you can't lose in? Since the rules use a rider+bike power to weight set-up, I might have a chance even with my fat ass!:lol:

No you wouldn't :lol:

The bikes are for the most part equal (or there abouts).

If you were racing Mat and Ben on stock 1000's how many laps until you think they'd pass you? Me? Maybe 3......

And I think the 1098 probably doesn't pass the dyno test, as I think the 858 make ~130.

[Amber Lamps]

No you wouldn't :lol:

The bikes are for the most part equal (or there abouts).

If you were racing Mat and Ben on stock 1000's how many laps until you think they'd pass you? Me? Maybe 3......

And I think the 1098 probably doesn't pass the dyno test, as I think the 858 make ~130.

Hey I was talking about racing a 750 against the 1125s...:lol: I think that I could hang with Michael Barnes for a few laps anyway....:lol:

[Rsv1000R]

Hey I was talking about racing a 750 against the 1125s...:lol: I think that I could hang with Michael Barnes for a few laps anyway....:lol:

Well then DMG has a class made for you....

[Tmall]

Hmmm... I'm not as smart as you so maybe I don't understand. Are you saying that there comes a point when 80+ ft/lbs of torque is not "better" than 45 ft/lbs of torque?

YES!!!

Hp is an equation. So, Hp=(Tq X Rpm)/5252

So, if you have 55 tq but 17000 rpm you have 178hp.

Now, 85tq and 11000rpm and you have 178hp.

So, in this case, lower tq or not. The engine is doing the same work..

[Amber Lamps]

YES!!!

Hp is an equation. So, Hp=(Tq X Rpm)/5252

So, if you have 55 tq but 17000 rpm you have 178hp.

Now, 85tq and 11000rpm and you have 178hp.

So, in this case, lower tq or not. The engine is doing the same work..

Seriously I'm stupid... so if I have a '97 YZF1000 with 130hp and 80 ft/lbs or a 2008 GSXR 750 with 130hp and 65 ft/lbs of torque or a 2006 GSXR1000 with 160hp and 85 ft/lbs of torque and they all redline about the same, which is better? I mean most 1000s redline around 13,000 so why are they faster than 600s that redline at your 17,000? I seriously don't get it. Basically, a 600 that redlined at 20,000 will beat a 'busa at the dragstrip because of it's higher rpms? Huh?

[Tmall]

Seriously I'm stupid... so if I have a '97 YZF1000 with 130hp and 80 ft/lbs or a 2008 GSXR 750 with 130hp and 65 ft/lbs of torque or a 2006 GSXR1000 with 160hp and 85 ft/lbs of torque and they all redline about the same, which is better? I mean most 1000s redline around 13,000 so why are they faster than 600s that redline at your 17,000? I seriously don't get it. Basically, a 600 that redlined at 20,000 will beat a 'busa at the dragstrip because of it's higher rpms? Huh?

Honestly, on the track they would be pretty similar because you're using the work of the engine to achieve acceleration.

Now, on the street where you're likely to be in the wrong gear, the higher tq would make a world of difference.

Keep in mind though, if the hp is equal the engine would be moving the same amount of air and fuel barring slight variations such as compression and frictional losses. As for your busa analogy, the tq and length of the busa would get it off the line faster.

Keep in mind with the rolling start that advantage is taken away from the buell.

The problem with all engines is piston velocity and the cost to build them to withstand those stresses.


Talk more later. Typing on a blackberry sucks..

[Amber Lamps]

Honestly, on the track they would be pretty similar because you're using the work of the engine to achieve acceleration.

Now, on the street where you're likely to be in the wrong gear, the higher tq would make a world of difference.

Keep in mind though, if the hp is equal the engine would be moving the same amount of air and fuel barring slight variations such as compression and frictional losses. As for your busa analogy, the tq and length of the busa would get it off the line faster.

Keep in mind with the rolling start that advantage is taken away from the buell.

The problem with all engines is piston velocity and the cost to build them to withstand those stresses.


Talk more later. Typing on a blackberry sucks..


Okay but my research shows the Buell getting worse 1/4 mile times than the 600s...:idk:

[Tmall]

Okay but my research shows the Buell getting worse 1/4 mile times than the 600s...:idk:

Yes, those are perfect passes with pro riders. They can make advantage of the hp by launching hard.
You get on either bike and I can almost promIse you would run the better time on the buell. The tq allows for an easier launch seeing as you don't have to dump the clutch at 9000 rpm.

100% honest here. I bet I can launch my high tq low hp xb just as good if not better than your gixxer. Then you'd blow by me as I'm shifting second at 50mph.

Tq is great. But useless without revs.

[Rsv1000R]

Seriously I'm stupid... so if I have a '97 YZF1000 with 130hp and 80 ft/lbs or a 2008 GSXR 750 with 130hp and 65 ft/lbs of torque or a 2006 GSXR1000 with 160hp and 85 ft/lbs of torque and they all redline about the same, which is better? I mean most 1000s redline around 13,000 so why are they faster than 600s that redline at your 17,000? I seriously don't get it. Basically, a 600 that redlined at 20,000 will beat a 'busa at the dragstrip because of it's higher rpms? Huh?

Hp is a measurement of work. 160hp is more work than 130hp. But in the case of accelerating a mass, your acceleration rate is hp/weight. More hp and you'll accelerate faster, less weight and equal hp you'll accelerate faster. Trap speed is a fairly good measure of power/weight ratio, yet et can be all over the place. I'm pretty sure the Bus will trap faster than the others.

A 1000 I4 SS makes more hp than a 600 I4 SS because it makes more torque, and the 600 doesn't make enough torque at higher rpm's to match it. But if you look at say my Aprilia, it makes more torque than a 600SS, but not as much as a modern Liter I4. My bikes dyno's at ~110hp, very close to what a 600SS makes, even though it does make more torque.

[Papa_Complex]

The track tends to make a difference also. At Calabogie, for the Parts Canada season opener, we had once kid in the top 10 who was running his 600 in Superbike. I guess when you're looking at steel guardrails all the way around the circuit, it tends to moderate your use of the throttle hand.

[Rsv1000R]

Peak hp is the rpm of most breathing, peak torque is the rpm of best breathing. If you think of a single cycle at tq pk, the engine breathes in the most air. That number can be used as sort of a measure of how efficient an engine is at breathing. As soon as you go past the tk pk, the engine doesn't inhale as much air/cycle as it did at peak. But you you get more cycles. As long as the breathing doesn't drop off faster than rpm goes up, even though it's breathing less air, it does more work.

The problem with all engines is piston velocity and the cost to build them to withstand those stresses.


This use to be a real problem, But at least for the length of a race they've solved it. Now it's closing the valves(well they've solved that too, now it's engine life).

[Amber Lamps]

Hmmm okay I'm getting what you're saying. An R6 makes as much torque as my bike at 17,000 rpm but it will never make as much hp. That still doesn't explain why Buell can't take 1125 cc and make a bike worthy of the Superbike class while Ducati can with 1200cc (in fact the big complaint is that the Duc makes too much power) .:idk: Heck, Ducati campaigned a 1000cc V-Twin against same cc I4 for a while and did okay....kinda.

[Rsv1000R]

Hmmm okay I'm getting what you're saying. An R6 makes as much torque as my bike at 17,000 rpm but it will never make as much hp. That still doesn't explain why Buell can't take 1125 cc and make a bike worthy of the Superbike class while Ducati can with 1200cc (in fact the big complaint is that the Duc makes too much power) .:idk: Heck, Ducati campaigned a 1000cc V-Twin against same cc I4 for a while and did okay....kinda.

The tq pk of my bike is ~6,500, I'd guess 8 or 9,000 on your bike, and about 14,000 on the R6.

The rotax in the Buell wasn't designed for competition, simple as that. It doesn't have the radical engine geometry necessary for maximum power. And it would always have a disadvantage because of the weight of it's larger valves for a metal valve spring.

Ducati was allow to replace the bottom end with Ti Rods and Cranks, so that they could run to 14,000 with a liter twin, the desmo-valve train allowed that.

To get the extra displacement they got in the FIM, they agreed to use stock cranks and rods. And gave up some of the higher rpm they use to run (or figured out a way to get similar rpm out of stock pieces and last a race).

[marko138]

(Insert tigger's shitty response about Buell here)

[Mikey]

(Insert tigger's shitty response about Buell here)

You are the anti-American.

If you were a real American, you would demand that an American sportbike step up and compete on a level playing field instead of making excuses and calling anyone who doesn't support the racing effort anti-American. ;)

[Amber Lamps]

You are the anti-American.

If you were a real American, you would demand that an American sportbike step up and compete on a level playing field instead of making excuses and calling anyone who doesn't support the racing effort anti-American. ;)

Aw snap!:rockwoot:

[Dave]

damn skippy

[marko138]

Hahahahahaha. They don't have to race a lap to earn my business. I don't give a shit who they compete against. I'm still gonna support the Americans.

[Rider]

Hahahahahaha. They don't have to race a lap to earn my business. I don't give a shit who they compete against. I'm still gonna support the Americans.

Who makes that nice camera you own?

[marko138]

Not America and not concerned.

[Amber Lamps]

Who makes that nice camera you own?

Or his TV, stereo, car, watch, etc, etc, etc.... I've had that argument many times with my soon to be ex-friends when I switched from Harley to Yamaha. I can't keep buying "American" (which Harley isn't btw) if they are going to be more expensive and give less reliability and performance. :sorry: I understand that they are much better these days (mostly because they gave up on a lot of their inferior American suppliers) but...:idk:

[Rsv1000R]

Or his TV, stereo, car, watch, etc, etc, etc.... I've had that argument many times with my soon to be ex-friends when I switched from Harley to Yamaha. I can't keep buying "American" (which Harley isn't btw) if they are going to be more expensive and give less reliability and performance. :sorry: I understand that they are much better these days (mostly because they gave up on a lot of their inferior American suppliers) but...:idk:

Harley is American (regardless of where the parts come from), and I didn't mind paying a bit more for mine because the resale will preserve most of any extra paid.

[Amber Lamps]

Harley is American (regardless of where the parts come from), and I didn't mind paying a bit more for mine because the resale will preserve most of any extra paid.

And it's guys like you that have kept them in business regardless of what kind of shit bikes they've produced... Again I understand that their quality has improved and sure when they promise to buy back a bike for what you paid for it, you can't go wrong... Unfortunately, I don't buy a motorcycle as an investment, I want to ride. I want to get up in the morning and put the key in and KNOW that it's going to start. I want to have the best performance in that class WITHOUT having to spend another $5-10,000 on transmission/engine upgrades. I didn't want to wait two years for a bike that was designed 10 years ago using 50 year old technology. Plus pay 1 1/2 as much money... To each their own but to accuse me of being "un-American" because I won't support a company that sells crap (imho) just because they're "assembled" in this country is bullshit!:pat:

[Rsv1000R]

And it's guys like you that have kept them in business regardless of what kind of shit bikes they've produced... Again I understand that their quality has improved and sure when they promise to buy back a bike for what you paid for it, you can't go wrong... Unfortunately, I don't buy a motorcycle as an investment, I want to ride. I want to get up in the morning and put the key in and KNOW that it's going to start. I want to have the best performance in that class WITHOUT having to spend another $5-10,000 on transmission/engine upgrades. I didn't want to wait two years for a bike that was designed 10 years ago using 50 year old technology. Plus pay 1 1/2 as much money... To each their own but to accuse me of being "un-American" because I won't support a company that sells crap (imho) just because they're "assembled" in this country is bullshit!:pat:

I didn't call you un-american. They did buy a bike back for what I paid for it. And I didn't buy it as an investment, I bought it to ride, But I also know that when I do decide to sell it it will have been cheap to own. Not cheap to buy, cheap to own.
Mine runs fine, only time it didn't start I flooded it. And I put slip-on and a carb on it. Runs fine, probably making 70-75 hp, 80-90 tq. The stock carb and intake looks to be really small for the engines size.

[Amber Lamps]

I didn't call you un-american. They did buy a bike back for what I paid for it. And I didn't buy it as an investment, I bought it to ride, But I also know that when I do decide to sell it it will have been cheap to own. Not cheap to buy, cheap to own.
Mine runs fine, only time it didn't start I flooded it. And I put slip-on and a carb on it. Runs fine, probably making 70-75 hp, 80-90 tq. The stock carb and intake looks to be really small for the engines size.

I didn't mean to imply that you called me un-American but you broke into the last micro-debate sparked by Marko's insistence that I am not patriotic because I don't support Buell/HD in AMA racing. Once again I understand that HD has improved since I last owned one (mid 70s to early 80s models) but in many ways things have stayed the same. That many people still buy them because they are "American", for an investment or to partake in a specific lifestyle and not because they have the best value/quality. I am certain that if I could get another '88 V-Max, it would surpass a brand new 2009 HD Sportster 1200 in every meaningful category.

[Dave]

I didn't mean to imply that you called me un-American but you broke into the last micro-debate sparked by Marko's insistence that I am not patriotic because I don't support Buell/HD in AMA racing. Once again I understand that HD has improved since I last owned one (mid 70s to early 80s models) but in many ways things have stayed the same. That many people still buy them because they are "American", for an investment or to partake in a specific lifestyle and not because they have the best value/quality. I am certain that if I could get another '88 V-Max, it would surpass a brand new 2009 HD Sportster 1200 in every meaningful category.

probably beat the vrod too.

[Rsv1000R]

I still think that as far as value goes, they are cheap to own.

[Tmall]

I didn't mean to imply that you called me un-American but you broke into the last micro-debate sparked by Marko's insistence that I am not patriotic because I don't support Buell/HD in AMA racing. Once again I understand that HD has improved since I last owned one (mid 70s to early 80s models) but in many ways things have stayed the same. That many people still buy them because they are "American", for an investment or to partake in a specific lifestyle and not because they have the best value/quality. I am certain that if I could get another '88 V-Max, it would surpass a brand new 2009 HD Sportster 1200 in every meaningful category.

Just a question, you didn't buy into the motorcyclist lifestyle? You ride solely to feel the wind in your face? Because, if you didn't buy into a lifestyle, why are you on THE KING liter bike? Especially when you say you don't ride hard anymore..

[marko138]

You guys are hilarious. Who fucking cares what I buy and who makes it. Not me. I bought the Buell because it's an awesome street bike...and is marketed as such. It's what I like. I dont give a fuck if you like or not and I dont care what the race results are for Buell or any other company.

I will certainly root for them, not because I ride one, but because of Erik Buell. He's a good guy, a Pennsylvanian too, and he's put in a ton of hard work and dedication to get where he is today. I can get behind a guy like him.

I didn't buy my bike soley because it's made in America, and I didn't buy anything else I own because it's made here or there.

Some of you fuckers, ass rapers like Tigger especially, will just beat up on Buell and talk shit on them for any reason. If they went out tomorrow and raced in WSBK and won there would be a barage of shit about them.

[Tmall]

You guys are hilarious. Who fucking cares what I buy and who makes it. Not me. I bought the Buell because it's an awesome street bike...and is marketed as such. It's what I like. I dont give a fuck if you like or not and I dont care what the race results are for Buell or any other company.

I will certainly root for them, not because I ride one, but because of Erik Buell. He's a good guy, a Pennsylvanian too, and he's put in a ton of hard work and dedication to get where he is today. I can get behind a guy like him.

I didn't buy my bike soley because it's made in America, and I didn't buy anything else I own because it's made here or there.

Some of you fuckers, ass rapers like Tigger especially, will just beat up on Buell and talk shit on them for any reason. If they went out tomorrow and raced in WSBK and won there would be a barage of shit about them.



"The only reason they won in WSBK is because they were running in ama. Let them build an I4 and compete and then I'll respect them.."

Sound like what you were imagining?

These very same people who talk shit about our bikes, couldn't ride them to 1/2 their potential to begin with. And thus, are guilty of what they accuse harley riders of. Buying an image. Because obviously if you're not riding the best and biggest bike to the limits that Rossi would, then you're a poser...

[Rider]

You guys are hilarious. Who fucking cares what I buy and who makes it. Not me. I bought the Buell because it's an awesome street bike...and is marketed as such. It's what I like. I dont give a fuck if you like or not and I dont care what the race results are for Buell or any other company.

I will certainly root for them, not because I ride one, but because of Erik Buell. He's a good guy, a Pennsylvanian too, and he's put in a ton of hard work and dedication to get where he is today. I can get behind a guy like him.

I didn't buy my bike soley because it's made in America, and I didn't buy anything else I own because it's made here or there.

Some of you fuckers, ass rapers like Tigger especially, will just beat up on Buell and talk shit on them for any reason. If they went out tomorrow and raced in WSBK and won there would be a barage of shit about them.

I don't hate on Buell. I actually think they are a decent bike. I just don't like the idea of them getting a huge displacement advantage oin racing. Would I ride a Buell? Certainly. Would buy a Buell? Maybe. $ for $ Buell is probably one of the best bike manufaturer out there. Like I said I have nothing against Buell. It's DMG/AMA who I hate. But I still watch their races.

[z06boy]

You guys are hilarious. Who fucking cares what I buy and who makes it. Not me. I bought the Buell because it's an awesome street bike...and is marketed as such. It's what I like. I dont give a fuck if you like or not and I dont care what the race results are for Buell or any other company.

I will certainly root for them, not because I ride one, but because of Erik Buell. He's a good guy, a Pennsylvanian too, and he's put in a ton of hard work and dedication to get where he is today. I can get behind a guy like him.

I didn't buy my bike soley because it's made in America, and I didn't buy anything else I own because it's made here or there.

Some of you fuckers, ass rapers like Tigger especially, will just beat up on Buell and talk shit on them for any reason. If they went out tomorrow and raced in WSBK and won there would be a barage of shit about them.

I bought the R1 because that's what I wanted and it is my money. The salesman that I bought it from was an American...so was the owner and so is the mechanic that works on it...well IF I ever need work on it...so far I don't. :lol:

I like Buell BUT yes I think it's BS that they are racing against 600's but hey maybe that's just me. :idk: I posted before that it mainly started when I attended a bikenight recently and some fvcktards riding Buells started running their mouth to a friend and to my wife that both ride R6's because Buell had won a dayum race. I quickly told them yep...they beat a fvckin 600...whoopdy fvckin' doooo !!!! I asked "wonder why they don't/can't do that to a liter bike" ?

IF Buell gets their chit together and starts competing in the superbike class and starts winning...more power to them...Ducati does it and I'm not here bashing them right ?

I'd rather Buell win than Ducati...yep it's American and so am I.

Oh yeah...I own a Vette...Jeep...and Dodge vehicle and also own an American built boat with a Chevy 350 block BUT when it comes to sportbikes...for my money...it's a Japanese inline 4...but again...maybe that's just me.

Erik Buell does seem like a decent guy...more power to him but for the Buell owners like I ran into at bikenight...stfu about your 1125 Buell beating a 600...step up and start beating liter bikes and you have some room to talk. :lol

[Rsv1000R]

What's so special about displacement? It seems that you're arguing that displacement is the be all of a bike, how about how much power it has vs how much it weighs?

That's all that matter to acceleration, hp and weight. Displacement is nowhere to be found in the equation of acceleration.

So if the buell had the same power to weight and beat a 600, well it did go faster, didn't it?

[Rider]

What's so special about displacement? It seems that you're arguing that displacement is the be all of a bike, how about how much power it has vs how much it weighs?

That's all that matter to acceleration, hp and weight. Displacement is nowhere to be found in the equation of acceleration.

So if the buell had the same power to weight and beat a 600, well it did go faster didn't?

There is no replacement for displacement. Have you ever heard that saying?
So you's be ok with someone running a 700lb 260Hp V6 in the same class? Those numbers are just doubling the current limits for a 600 cc bike.

[Rsv1000R]

There is no replacement for displacement. Have you ever heard that saying?

Actually I think it's quite ironic you say that.

And yes, I had a 69 Dodge Coronet RT with a 440 6-pack with headers, electronic ignition, a big cam, 3.91 gears and 10.5" M&H StreetMasters DOT approved 'slicks'.



So you's be ok with someone running a 700lb 260Hp V6 in the same class? Those numbers are just doubling the current limits for a 600 cc bike.

Yes

[Amber Lamps]

Just a question, you didn't buy into the motorcyclist lifestyle? You ride solely to feel the wind in your face? Because, if you didn't buy into a lifestyle, why are you on THE KING liter bike? Especially when you say you don't ride hard anymore..


I started riding when I was young because it was a natural progression from bikes for me. A motorcycle was cheap, economical transportation for a poor halfbreed trying to make his way alone in the world at 16 (both of my parents were dead). I got an old MX250 off a guy for mowing his lawn and fixed it up myself to get it running (man it was a pos). Later when I was in the military, I bought a used Harley (pos) then a new 883 (pos) and then a 1200 (also a pos!). I got an Uncle's Yamaha and it was over for HD in my life! I've been riding liter+ bikes since the early 80s so I guess that's what I'm used to... to be honest, I don't even think about it. I suppose that I could live with a smaller bike but in all honesty, I always end up buying the liter, partially because, well a 600 costs 10+k and a 1000 costs about 11k so....:lol: In fact, I seriously thought about the 750 but I actually got my bike for over $1,000 less. :lol: I never bought into a "lifestyle" though... Oh and I've had this bike for 4 years, my slowing down was partially brought on by throat cancer year before last so the two things aren't necessarily connected.

[Rider]

Actually I think it's quite ironic you say that.

And yes, I had a 69 Dodge Coronet RT with a 440 6-pack with headers, electronic ignition, a big cam, 3.91 gears and 10.5" M&H StreetMasters DOT approved 'slicks'.




Yes

Nice car


That makes about as much sense as putting a 150lbs fighter in the ring that can bench press 300 lbs with a 300lbs fighter that can bench 600lbs. Same logic, the strength to weight ratio is the same.

[Mikey]

You guys are hilarious. Who fucking cares what I buy and who makes it. Not me. I bought the Buell because it's an awesome street bike...and is marketed as such. It's what I like. I dont give a fuck if you like or not and I dont care what the race results are for Buell or any other company.

I will certainly root for them, not because I ride one, but because of Erik Buell. He's a good guy, a Pennsylvanian too, and he's put in a ton of hard work and dedication to get where he is today. I can get behind a guy like him.

I didn't buy my bike soley because it's made in America, and I didn't buy anything else I own because it's made here or there.

Some of you fuckers, ass rapers like Tigger especially, will just beat up on Buell and talk shit on them for any reason. If they went out tomorrow and raced in WSBK and won there would be a barage of shit about them.

You obviously aren't listening, so let me repeat my main points for you:

1. I don't hate Buells. I think they make great STREETbikes, and I'm particularly fond of the XB12S.

2. I have a lot of respect for Erik and what he's trying to do, but he's doing it wrong wrt racing.

3. I've said it like nine times in this thread already, but here it is again: the Buell should be in Superbike. Any Buell owner bragging about the 1125 being competitive in Supersport is the equivalent of Tigger bragging that he's doing pretty well in a 5th grade basketball league.

I will respect the Buell "racing" effort when they are competitive in Superbike. Until then, they are an insult to the sport, and both Buell and DMG should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

[Tmall]

Nice car


That makes about as much sense as putting a 150lbs fighter in the ring that can bench press 300 lbs with a 300lbs fighter that can bench 600lbs. Same logic, the strength to weight ratio is the same.

When the motorcycles start punching each other in the face, then you might be onto something.

E for effort.. No more, no less.

[Rsv1000R]

Nice car


That makes about as much sense as putting a 150lbs fighter in the ring that can bench press 300 lbs with a 300lbs fighter that can bench 600lbs. Same logic, the strength to weight ratio is the same.

Well if boxing and racing were the same, I'd see you point.

[Amber Lamps]

You guys are hilarious. Who fucking cares what I buy and who makes it. Not me. I bought the Buell because it's an awesome street bike...and is marketed as such. It's what I like. I dont give a fuck if you like or not and I dont care what the race results are for Buell or any other company.

I will certainly root for them, not because I ride one, but because of Erik Buell. He's a good guy, a Pennsylvanian too, and he's put in a ton of hard work and dedication to get where he is today. I can get behind a guy like him.

I didn't buy my bike soley because it's made in America, and I didn't buy anything else I own because it's made here or there.

Some of you fuckers, ass rapers like Tigger especially, will just beat up on Buell and talk shit on them for any reason. If they went out tomorrow and raced in WSBK and won there would be a barage of shit about them.

Huh? I don't have anything "personal" against Buell. In fact, I wanted one really bad when they first came out, at least until I rode one...:panic: I'm still waiting for them to produce a bike that is comparable to what I ride now. When they do that, I will be proud to own an "American" bike again!:pat:

BTW as far as the "American" thing goes, you're the one that brought it up. I don't care if Buell was made in Timbuktu, it's still bullshit to allow them to race that bike in that class imho. That's the point of this entire thread, not where they are made. You, sir, are the one that made this into an "American pride" issue not me! I have served this country, what have you done for her besides buy a bike that was assembled here?

[Rsv1000R]

When the motorcycles start punching each other in the face, then you might be onto something.

E for effort.. No more, no less.

Damn, you were 1 minute faster....

[Tmall]

Damn, you were 1 minute faster....
My gf always says the same thing...

[Rsv1000R]

3. I've said it like nine times in this thread already, but here it is again: the Buell should be in Superbike. Any Buell owner bragging about the 1125 being competitive in Supersport is the equivalent of Tigger bragging that he's doing pretty well in a 5th grade basketball league.



If he was as big as your averge 5th grader, No problem....

[Tmall]

Ok homos.. I haven't even read it yet. Just saw a link...

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/03june09_das_mdstyle.htm

Compares the 1125 to the 600s..

[z06boy]

What's so special about displacement? It seems that you're arguing that displacement is the be all of a bike, how about how much power it has vs how much it weighs?

That's all that matter to acceleration, hp and weight. Displacement is nowhere to be found in the equation of acceleration.

So if the buell had the same power to weight and beat a 600, well it did go faster, didn't it?


These guys were bragging that Buell was beating the Japanese inline four's at their on game and that's BS...the game/rules are being changed to accomodate the horsepower deprived Buells...they aren't beating anyone at "their own game" imho.

Well then let's just add weight to all 600's and take some more weight off of the Buells and add some weight to the literbikes and the Ducati 1098/1198's and throw them all in the same class...no need for seperate classes I guess if it's just all about power to weight ?

Yeah I know...that's rediculas...same as I feel about the Buells being in a class with 600's. Oh well we'll see what the future holds...maybe Buell will get competitive in the big boys class like Ducati and we won't be having this debate.

[z06boy]

Ok homos.. I haven't even read it yet. Just saw a link...

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/03june09_das_mdstyle.htm

Compares the 1125 to the 600s..

Thanks homo...looks interesting and I'll read it here in a few when I get the chance. :dt:

[Amber Lamps]

Thanks homo...looks interesting and I'll read it here in a few when I get the chance. :dt:

Well I'm not a fucking homo but I did read the article and they've concluded that the Buell doesn't have any real advantage so it's a fair series... Even I have to admit that the recent results tend to be consistent with this pov. Of course it then shows that Buell needs twice as many cc's be competitive. So if Buell is ever to compete in Superbike, it will have to be on a 2000cc bike...:lol: I'm just kidding and I have to admit that this is a lose/lose situation for Buell... If they win, they had an unfair advantage, if they lose, they suck for getting beat by 600s...

[marko138]

Huh? I don't have anything "personal" against Buell. In fact, I wanted one really bad when they first came out, at least until I rode one...:panic: I'm still waiting for them to produce a bike that is comparable to what I ride now. When they do that, I will be proud to own an "American" bike again!:pat:

BTW as far as the "American" thing goes, you're the one that brought it up. I don't care if Buell was made in Timbuktu, it's still bullshit to allow them to race that bike in that class imho. That's the point of this entire thread, not where they are made. You, sir, are the one that made this into an "American pride" issue not me! I have served this country, what have you done for her besides buy a bike that was assembled here?
Dude, you don't know me or what I've done. Jackass.

[Amber Lamps]

Dude, you don't know me or what I've done. Jackass.

That's why that was a question.

[Papa_Complex]

Well I'm not a fucking homo but I did read the article and they've concluded that the Buell doesn't have any real advantage so it's a fair series... Even I have to admit that the recent results tend to be consistent with this pov. Of course it then shows that Buell needs twice as many cc's be competitive. So if Buell is ever to compete in Superbike, it will have to be on a 2000cc bike...:lol: I'm just kidding and I have to admit that this is a lose/lose situation for Buell... If they win, they had an unfair advantage, if they lose, they suck for getting beat by 600s...

Ducati was doing it with 750s.

[Amber Lamps]

Ducati was doing it with 750s.

They're still doing it with 850s...:lol:

[z06boy]

Well I'm not a fucking homo but I did read the article and they've concluded that the Buell doesn't have any real advantage so it's a fair series... Even I have to admit that the recent results tend to be consistent with this pov. Of course it then shows that Buell needs twice as many cc's be competitive. So if Buell is ever to compete in Superbike, it will have to be on a 2000cc bike...:lol: I'm just kidding and I have to admit that this is a lose/lose situation for Buell... If they win, they had an unfair advantage, if they lose, they suck for getting beat by 600s...

:lol:

I must apologize to all Buell 1125R's and their owners. I did not realilze that when you walk into a dealership and displayed on both sides of the bike in large print "1125R" which would make the average person think wow...big bike that races with the big dogs... doesn't really mean this at all.

Come to find out that when you buy one you get one of these in the dealer packet and when you show up at a bikenight you must display this and are allowed to park in the Handicapped spaces ? Heard it on the net...must be true. :whistle:

Standard issue with Buell 1125R ? :nee:

http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/image/A2940/294083/300_294083.jpg

[Dave]

:lmao: repped

[Rsv1000R]

:lol:

I must apologize to all Buell 1125R's and their owners. I did not realilze that when you walk into a dealership and displayed on both sides of the bike in large print "1125R" which would make the average person think wow...big bike that races with the big dogs... doesn't really mean this at all.



:lol: Right, Your R1 and Ben's are the same!

On the otherhand The bike Ducati races sells for about $40,000, plus whatever they spend to get it ready for Haga.

[z06boy]

:lol: Right, Your R1 and Ben's are the same!

On the otherhand The bike Ducati races sells for about $40,000, plus whatever they spend to get it ready for Haga.

I was joking but at least it is closer...it does have a chain and it races in the big boys class. :lol: How's the 1125 Buell doing in WSBK ? :whatwhat:

[Amber Lamps]

You know what? WHO CARES?!? Suuki is leading that class as well by 50+ points!!! Who knows maybe DMG will allow Buell to field a 1500cc bike next year.... Hahahahaha! Not to mention that Mat is ahead by well over 100 points in super bike!

[Rider]

You know what? WHO CARES?!? Suuki is leading that class as well by 50+ points!!! Who knows maybe DMG will allow Buell to field a 1500cc bike next year.... Hahahahaha! Not to mention that Mat is ahead by well 100 points in super bike!

I wonder in DMG will let a Hyabusa run in the super sport class? :lol

[Amber Lamps]

I wonder in DMG will let a Hyabusa run in the super sport class? :lol

Who knows what will happen? They're obviously making this shit up as they go!:lol:

[z06boy]

Just add a bunch of weight to it and let it run...it may be the "Official Bike" before too long anyways. :lol

[marko138]

Race 1


4 out of the top 10 are Buell.


Race 2

3 out of the top 10 are Buell.


:pat::nana2::nana:

[z06boy]

Race 1


4 out of the top 10 are Buell.


Race 2

3 out of the top 10 are Buell.


:pat::nana2::nana:

Correct...against 600's but 3 600's were ahead of the Buell in one race and 4 600's were ahead of it in the other race.

No one has denied they are doing well against smaller bikes.

It's all good...the ones that think it's great still do and the ones that think it's complete BS still do. :lol

[Amber Lamps]

Correct...against 600's but 3 600's were ahead of the Buell in one race and 4 600's were ahead of it in the other race.

No one has denied they are doing well against smaller bikes.

It's all good...the ones that think it's great still do and the ones that think it's complete BS still do. :lol

We've accomplished absolutely NOTHING... another typical thread here on TWFix!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[z06boy]

We've accomplished absolutely NOTHING... another typical thread here on TWFix!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Agreed 100 % :lol:

[Rsv1000R]

We've accomplished absolutely NOTHING... another typical thread here on TWFix!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Well that's your fault, as you fail to listen to reason :lol:

[z06boy]

:lol: Just for the record...I actually LIKE the Buell 1125R although I've never ridden one...but I will.

[Amber Lamps]

:lol: Just for the record...I actually LIKE the Buell 1125R although I've never ridden one...but I will.

I like the concept and have been stating for years that Buell wouldn't ever get anywhere with the "sport bike community" until they adapted another engine other than Harley. Now if they would just please hire a different designer....:sorry: They are getting better and I'm getting older so eventually we'll cross paths.:lol:

[Rsv1000R]

Now if they would just please hire a different designer....:sorry:

:?:

How about maybe they didn't want a race engine, and wanted a streetbike engine?

[Rider]

:?:

How about maybe they didn't want a race engine, and wanted a streetbike engine?

Word on the street is that Buell is one of the better handling bikes on the road. I'd have to imagine racing was on their minds when designing the bike chassis. Why make a bike so track capable if it was never meant to be tracked? And if that's the case why throw an air cooled HD motor in it? Seems like they had an engine group and a chassis group and neither of them met to discuss bike capabilities.

[Rsv1000R]

Word on the street is that Buell is one of the better handling bikes on the road. I'd have to imagine racing was on their minds when designing the bike chassis. Why make a bike so track capable if it was never meant to be tracked? And if that's the case why throw an air cooled HD motor in it? Seems like they had an engine group and a chassis group and neither of them met to discuss bike capabilities.

No, it was designed as a streetbike, which is why it has a belt drive, and while the older ones have an air-cooled engine, the 1125 has a water cooled Rotax for an engine.

[Rider]

No, it was designed as a streetbike, which is why it has a belt drive, and while the older ones have an air-cooled engine, the 1125 has a water cooled Rotax for an engine.

Yeah but they are no more powerful than a 599cc I-4 :lol:

My insurance company bases it's rates strictly on engine size. Why in the world would I pay higher insurance premiums than I would on an R1 but only benefit from the power of an R6? :?:

I know Buell doesn't give 2 shits about what insurance companies base their premiums upon, but I'd have to imagine that it would affect their overall sales. Which is why If I was Buell Id figure out how to make a 1125R more competitive with a liter bike instead of a 600. 600 riders might have been their intended market, I don't know but you know as well as I do, Americans are obsessed with size. If your going to spend the money on a bike with 1125cc's you should get liter bike performance out of it. Just my thoughts on it.

Again I have nothing against Buell personally. Everything I've heard they are great bikes. As a matter of fact I've never heard a Buell owner complain about them.

[dReWpY]

i rode the 1125 and the 1125 cr, both were capable bikes, but my rc just felt faster, even if it was down on hp it still felt like a faster, quicker bike

[Amber Lamps]

:?:

How about maybe they didn't want a race engine, and wanted a streetbike engine?

Dude, un-ruffle your feathers, JESUS! I'm talking about the way it looks. Am I now not allowed to have my own view about what is aesthetically pleasing? I don't like the looks at all. It is just my opinion but since it will be MY fucking money buying my next bike, you'll excuse me if I weigh my opinion a bit more heavily than yours.

[Amber Lamps]

Word on the street is that Buell is one of the better handling bikes on the road. I'd have to imagine racing was on their minds when designing the bike chassis. Why make a bike so track capable if it was never meant to be tracked? And if that's the case why throw an air cooled HD motor in it? Seems like they had an engine group and a chassis group and neither of them met to discuss bike capabilities.

Not only that but his lame ass excuses for Buell are getting on my nerves! Erik Buell came from racing AND stated at the beginning that he was designing a race-type bike. He somehow got entangled with HD and the PR guys started this "designed for the street" type ad speak. Erik Buell always dreamed of going racing from what I've always read.

[Amber Lamps]

Yeah but they are no more powerful than a 599cc I-4 :lol:

My insurance company bases it's rates strictly on engine size. Why in the world would I pay higher insurance premiums than I would on an R1 but only benefit from the power of an R6? :?:

I know Buell doesn't give 2 shits about what insurance companies base their premiums upon, but I'd have to imagine that it would affect their overall sales. Which is why If I was Buell Id figure out how to make a 1125R more competitive with a liter bike instead of a 600. 600 riders might have been their intended market, I don't know but you know as well as I do, Americans are obsessed with size. If your going to spend the money on a bike with 1125cc's you should get liter bike performance out of it. Just my thoughts on it.

Again I have nothing against Buell personally. Everything I've heard they are great bikes. As a matter of fact I've never heard a Buell owner complain about them.

Very good points but you very rarely hear any "boutique bike" owner complain about their machine. I don't know what some of you are talking about but I rode several of the first generation Buells and I'm here to tell you that they were not good. They were using the old HD 1200 motor at the time and the vibration was horrid. They had oil issues, electronic issues, parts literally falling off. Yet to the Buell faithful, they were wonderful machines. The same can be said about Triumphs, Big Dogs, etc. Quite frankly, ownership of a lot of these brands is an emotional decision and facts, figures or even reality itself will not deter the faithful.

Besides, they were hyping the shit out of this new bike before it was released as "competition for the big four" and now that it's here and we expect "competitiveness", all I'm hearing are excuses. This reminds me of when the BMW "Hypersport" came out as a "Hayabusa Killer" only to fall far short of any hope of beating the 'Busa performance wise. Of course afterward it was designed as a "sport tourer" and was never meant to compete against the ZX-14 or 'Busa ...:lol:

[Amber Lamps]

No, it was designed as a streetbike, which is why it has a belt drive, and while the older ones have an air-cooled engine, the 1125 has a water cooled Rotax for an engine.

Nope, it has belt drive because supposedly, according to Buell, belt drive is better. Gas in the frame is better. Oil in the swing arm is better. Perimeter brakes are better. Carrying the muffler under the engine is better. When the Buell was introduced, Erik proclaimed that he had a better motorcycle design. The ads and the accolades were endless. Well, I say prove it! Fuck, if they aren't trying to sell it as a sport/race bike then why race it in the first place? When it wins races it's a race bike, when it loses then it's a street bike.:lol:

[Phenix_Rider]

Nope, it has belt drive because supposedly, according to Buell, belt drive is better. Gas in the frame is better. Oil in the swing arm is better. Perimeter brakes are better. Carrying the muffler under the engine is better. When the Buell was introduced, Erik proclaimed that he had a better motorcycle design. The ads and the accolades were endless. Well, I say prove it! Fuck, if they aren't trying to sell it as a sport/race bike then why race it in the first place? When it wins races it's a race bike, when it loses then it's a street bike.:lol:

So he should make a Jap I4 clone? That's where BMW is going, after all.

[tached1000rr]

So he should make a Jap I4 clone? That's where BMW is going, after all.

Why stop there, go ahead up to an 8cyl so it sounds like a chevy with flowmasters on it.:boobs:

[Trip]

Well it looks like Buell races in Superbike, I don't know if you can actually call it racing, maybe more like backmarking. They need to give them 1000 more cc's. In other news, Mladin got smoked by the Duc. Apparently it was going more than 10 mph faster in the straights. Sounds like Moto GP. He still almost won the damn thing though.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jun/e/n090607g.htm

[Amber Lamps]

Well it looks like Buell races in Superbike, I don't know if you can actually call it racing, maybe more like backmarking. They need to give them 1000 more cc's. In other news, Mladin got smoked by the Duc. Apparently it was going more than 10 mph faster in the straights. Sounds like Moto GP. He still almost won the damn thing though.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2009/Jun/e/n090607g.htm

Aw come on, Pegram won by like .3 of a second or something... I don't call that a smoking... besides Pegram is on a WSBK spec 1200cc bike...:lol:

[Amber Lamps]

So he should make a Jap I4 clone? That's where BMW is going, after all.

Oh I don't think that but if you're going to come out of the box saying that you have a better way of doing things.... again prove it!

[Papa_Complex]

So he should make a Jap I4 clone? That's where BMW is going, after all.

I would have preferred if they had gone with a triple, to give at least a nod to some of their older machines, but the fact that they have developed an inline four tends to support the notion that there is an optimal configuration for a sportbike.

It would be nice if Buell did better but until Eric and company get away from cruiser-spawned engine concepts, they simply won't be able to compete on an equal footing. Twins are viable, especially on tighter tracks, but not if they carry enough excess mass to build a second engine.

[marko138]

Do you guys know why the old Buells used Harley based engines? Probably not, and it's not because Erik thought they were the best engines ever. They are good engines, good for the street, but thats not why he used them to begin with.

[Phenix_Rider]

Do you guys know why the old Buells used Harley based engines? Probably not, and it's not because Erik thought they were the best engines ever. They are good engines, good for the street, but thats not why he used them to begin with.

Because you can get them anywhere?

[marko138]

Because you can get them anywhere?
Nope.

[Rsv1000R]

Dude, un-ruffle your feathers, JESUS! I'm talking about the way it looks. Am I now not allowed to have my own view about what is aesthetically pleasing? I don't like the looks at all. It is just my opinion but since it will be MY fucking money buying my next bike, you'll excuse me if I weigh my opinion a bit more heavily than yours.

Dude, it's great you don't like it, I'm not asking you to like it.

I'm trying to explain that a power to weight based class can allow them to compete fairly.

[Rsv1000R]

Aw come on, Pegram won by like .3 of a second or something... I don't call that a smoking... besides Pegram is on a WSBK spec 1200cc bike...:lol:

What the fuck does a WSBK spec bike have to do with anything? It's racing in Superbike.

Do you realize that the AMA is going to adopt FIM WSBK rules?

Maybe you're pissed the yamaha is now competing with the suzuki?

And again, all of the sanctioning bodies in racing recognize that a twin can not make the same hp as a I4 of the samesize.

Lastly, I like how twins run, if you want buy an I4, I don't care, but don't whine that everybike made isn't an I4, not everyone wants one.

[Rsv1000R]

Nope, it has belt drive because supposedly, according to Buell, belt drive is better. Gas in the frame is better. Oil in the swing arm is better. Perimeter brakes are better. Carrying the muffler under the engine is better. When the Buell was introduced, Erik proclaimed that he had a better motorcycle design. The ads and the accolades were endless. Well, I say prove it! Fuck, if they aren't trying to sell it as a sport/race bike then why race it in the first place? When it wins races it's a race bike, when it loses then it's a street bike.:lol:

Belt drive is better on the street, putting weight under the bike is better than hanging it off the back, gas in the frame, and oil in the swing arm are pretty good ideas as well.

You're the one who's whine about it competing in a class of bike that have about the same hp.

[marko138]

FYI, Tigger, the 1125 doesn't use the swingarm as an oil tank.

[Homeslice]

The front end of the 1125 looks like someone sat on it and squashed the headlights. And then there's the ugly side scoops.

[z06boy]

Well Eric Buell was a former Harley Davidson engineer so that may have something to do with Buell using Harley engines. This and the fact that Buell and HD entered into an agreement/partnership with HD having right at half of the controlling ownership.

[Amber Lamps]

Do you guys know why the old Buells used Harley based engines? Probably not, and it's not because Erik thought they were the best engines ever. They are good engines, good for the street, but thats not why he used them to begin with.


Actually, I thought that it was because all the other companies had laughed in his face and I don't mean this in a bad way. I'm pretty sure that he approached other companies with his ideas.

[Amber Lamps]

Dude, it's great you don't like it, I'm not asking you to like it.

I'm trying to explain that a power to weight based class can allow them to compete fairly.

Oh no you don't! I said that I don't like the way it looks and you jumped down my throat...:lol:

Besides, I'm ready to concede that it's "fair" considering the results...:lol:

[Papa_Complex]

Well Eric Buell was a former Harley Davidson engineer so that may have something to do with Buell using Harley engines. This and the fact that Buell and HD entered into an agreement/partnership with HD having right at half of the controlling ownership.

Worked for them. Built and designed them. Raced them. Could get a shit-load of them....

[Rsv1000R]

Oh no you don't! I said that I don't like the way it looks and you jumped down my throat...:lol:

Besides, I'm ready to concede that it's "fair" considering the results...:lol:

If I did I apologize, as I don't care what it looks like, nor whether you like it or not.

[Trip]

Well Eric Buell was a former Harley Davidson engineer so that may have something to do with Buell using Harley engines. This and the fact that Buell and HD entered into an agreement/partnership with HD having right at half of the controlling ownership.

As an engineer, if he decided to start his own company, he might have to prove his ideas and designs weren't made using company resources. That entitles HD to ownership of his designs. So he may not have had a choice, but to give HD choice of if they wanted to use those designs.

[z06boy]

Actually, I thought that it was because all the other companies had laughed in his face and I don't mean this in a bad way. I'm pretty sure that he approached other companies with his ideas.

:lol: Dayum !!

As an engineer, if he decided to start his own company, he might have to prove his ideas and designs weren't made using company resources. That entitles HD to ownership of his designs. So he may not have had a choice, but to give HD choice of if they wanted to use those designs.

That's a possibility and makes good sense.

[Amber Lamps]

What the fuck does a WSBK spec bike have to do with anything? It's racing in Superbike.

Do you realize that the AMA is going to adopt FIM WSBK rules?

Maybe you're pissed the yamaha is now competing with the suzuki?

And again, all of the sanctioning bodies in racing recognize that a twin can not make the same hp as a I4 of the samesize.

Lastly, I like how twins run, if you want buy an I4, I don't care, but don't whine that everybike made isn't an I4, not everyone wants one.

I was joking with Trip about the Ducati being a WSBK bike/1200 cc... you didn't get it?:lol:

Cool, now maybe they'll start using Pirelli tires as well. :lol: Either that or Buells will be racing in WSS...:lol:

Naw, I welcome competition! The races were getting boring with Suzuki winning all of them, for the past DECADE btw. As a race fan, I enjoy tight racing but Hayes even admitted that Mat had a bad race or two. Subsequent races have proven that Mat and the GSXR1000 are the bike to beat... I think that BB was over 20 secs back. Not my idea of "competitive".

Yay, all of the sanctioning bodies have realized that V-Twins suck!!!:lol::lol::lol: j/k The same was said about I4s, 2-strokes, then 4 strokes, etc. The teams/ factories believed that they had a "better way" and worked hard to make their type of machine stronger. Finally, after years of hard work and innovation, they were able to compete. If you have an overweight son that can't make the high school football team. You don't force the jr high school team to let him play. Then brag about "all the ass he is kicking!":lol: You train him. You put him on a diet. You fix whatever it is about him that is causing him to be non-competitive. At one time I4 engines struggled against twins. Now my bike producing as much torque and way more hp than any same sized twin. The engineers found a way to produce torque lower in the rev range, so now my bike pulls off idle.:rockwoot:

A V-twin is possibly the best street bike engine EVER produced. Okay fine but why race them then? You consistently say that "the Buell is a street bike", why insist on racing it?:idk: It's like bringing a mule to the Kentucky Derby and expecting the thoroughbred horses to carry two riders each to "make it fair" because "a mule isn't a race horse".:lol:

When did I "whine"? I don't care about what type of bikes other guys ride.:lol: BTW all of the Japanese manufacturers used to produce a V-twin sport bike but now they don't...hmmm. I wonder why?:lol: You know, I think that I'm looking at this the wrong way. This racing series is proving exactly what I and many others believe. That the I4 is the best engine configuration period! Think about it, the v-twin guys had to bring an almost double cc bike to the party and they are still getting their asses handed to them.:lol::lol::lol:

[Amber Lamps]

FYI, Tigger, the 1125 doesn't use the swingarm as an oil tank.

Yea I know, I was talking about the "innovations" that Erik brought to the motorcycle scene.

[Tmall]

I was joking with Trip about the Ducati being a WSBK bike/1200 cc... you didn't get it?:lol:

Cool, now maybe they'll start using Pirelli tires as well. :lol: Either that or Buells will be racing in WSS...:lol:

Naw, I welcome competition! The races were getting boring with Suzuki winning all of them, for the past DECADE btw. As a race fan, I enjoy tight racing but Hayes even admitted that Mat had a bad race or two. Subsequent races have proven that Mat and the GSXR1000 are the bike to beat... I think that BB was over 20 secs back. Not my idea of "competitive".

Yay, all of the sanctioning bodies have realized that V-Twins suck!!!:lol::lol::lol: j/k The same was said about I4s, 2-strokes, then 4 strokes, etc. The teams/ factories believed that they had a "better way" and worked hard to make their type of machine stronger. Finally, after years of hard work and innovation, they were able to compete. If you have an overweight son that can't make the high school football team. You don't force the jr high school team to let him play. Then brag about "all the ass he is kicking!":lol: You train him. You put him on a diet. You fix whatever it is about him that is causing him to be non-competitive. At one time I4 engines struggled against twins. Now my bike producing as much torque and way more hp than any same sized twin. The engineers found a way to produce torque lower in the rev range, so now my bike pulls off idle.:rockwoot:

A V-twin is possibly the best street bike engine EVER produced. Okay fine but why race them then? You consistently say that "the Buell is a street bike", why insist on racing it?:idk: It's like bringing a mule to the Kentucky Derby and expecting the thoroughbred horses to carry two riders each to "make it fair" because "a mule isn't a race horse".:lol:

When did I "whine"? I don't care about what type of bikes other guys ride.:lol: BTW all of the Japanese manufacturers used to produce a V-twin sport bike but now they don't...hmmm. I wonder why?:lol: You know, I think that I'm looking at this the wrong way. This racing series is proving exactly what I and many others believe. That the I4 is the best engine configuration period! Think about it, the v-twin guys had to bring an almost double cc bike to the party and they are still getting their asses handed to them.:lol::lol::lol:


I'm just going to reply from now on so you don't get the last word.

[z06boy]

I'm just going to reply from now on so you don't get the last word.

:lmao::lmao:

[Amber Lamps]

Belt drive is better on the street, putting weight under the bike is better than hanging it off the back, gas in the frame, and oil in the swing arm are pretty good ideas as well.

You're the one who's whine about it competing in a class of bike that have about the same hp.

I understand that they say that chain drive is easier to make gear changes with... which I don't get considering that I don't see why it's any harder to change pulleys than sprockets?:idk: Why not race the belt drive if it's so great?

I hear what you are saying about the exhaust weight, etc. That's not new. I have no idea why they don't all do it.:idk:

As far as oil in the swing arm and gas in the frame, well he's already given up on one...:lol:

Okay, they do not have the same hp stock. Whether or not the 600 teams can come up with a way to produce that much hp/tq and keep their bikes in one piece will be a testament to THEIR ingenuity and hard work, not a validation of the "fairness" of the rules in the first place. Quite frankly, all this little exercise is going to accomplish is to spotlight how inferior the Buell is when it gets beaten by a bunch of 600s.:lol: What's Erik going to do? Have a press conference at the end of the season and say," Well my bike was never intended to be a race bike"...

[Amber Lamps]

If I did I apologize, as I don't care what it looks like, nor whether you like it or not.

Thankyou! I may have been unclear when I said that, "they need a new designer". Perhaps, you took it to mean an "engine" designer. Although....:lol: Hey, there you go. Didn't HD make a play for Aprillia or MV or something? I wonder if it would help if they threw a Ducati motor in that chassis? Seriously, is it still a case of the engine holding them back? Hmmm...:idk:

[Homeslice]

A triple or V4 is possibly the best street bike engine EVER produced.

Fixed.

More low-end than an I-4, along with cooler sound.

Also, less vibration than a twin under full throttle, and doesn't feel like it's going to stall out or break its connecting rods if you lug it.

[Homeslice]

Why not race the belt drive if it's so great?
:

Because it isn't. I'm quite sure it weighs more than a good 520 chain, and sucks up more power.

[Trip]

Fixed.

More low-end than an I-4, along with cooler sound.

Also, less vibration than a twin under full throttle, and doesn't feel like it's going to stall out or break its connecting rods if you lug it.

maybe if someone other than triumph made them, everyone I know with a 675 for a daily ride has had nothing but problems with them.

[Amber Lamps]

I'm just going to reply from now on so you don't get the last word.

:lol::lol::lol: That's one way to do it! Maybe you can get the forum's "sanctioning body" to make all of your posts post twice to make it "fair".... :D

[Amber Lamps]

Because it isn't. I'm quite sure it weighs more than a good 520 chain, and sucks up more power.

Really? I could have sworn that I read that it's a lighter combination... Hmmm... I'll have to check.

[Rsv1000R]

Because it isn't. I'm quite sure it weighs more than a good 520 chain, and sucks up more power.

I don't think it weighs more or sucks up more power. But it's quite complicated keeping the proper tension on it, that's why you can't just change pulleys. Plus iirc race starts are hard on the belt cogs.

[Amber Lamps]

maybe if someone other than triumph made them, everyone I know with a 675 for a daily ride has had nothing but problems with them.

Yea, I've heard the same but conversely, the 1050 seems to be okay...:idk:

[Rsv1000R]

:lol::lol::lol: That's one way to do it! Maybe you can get the forum's "sanctioning body" to make all of your posts post twice to make it "fair".... :D

So what did you think about MotoGP having twice the displacement the 500 2-strokes had?

[Rider]

So what did you think about MotoGP having twice the displacement the 500 2-strokes had?

No problem with that because everyone switched and they all have the same type engine and size.

[shmike]

maybe if someone other than triumph made them, everyone I know with a 675 for a daily ride has had nothing but problems with them.

How many do you know?

What kind of problems?

I've owned 2 1/2 675's and have only had one problem that was factory error.

[Amber Lamps]

I don't think it weighs more or sucks up more power. But it's quite complicated keeping the proper tension on it, that's why you can't just change pulleys. Plus iirc race starts are hard on the belt cogs.

I thought that EB had come up with some innovative tensional system that eliminated drive line lash.:idk: Besides, race starts are just as hard on aluminum sprockets aren't they?

[Kaneman]

I'm a little late to the party here but...is this thread really about Buell racing their liter bike against Japan and Italy's 600cc bikes????

hahahahaha, that's the lamest thing I've ever heard. How pathetic is it that America still can't build a bike to truly compete with Japan in the 600cc and 1000cc categories on the street AND the track?

If Buell is so great why don't/can't they simply build a powerful enough 600cc motor to compete with???!??!?? Pathetic.
________
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[Homeslice]

I'm a little late to the party here but...is this thread really about Buell racing their liter bike against Japan and Italy's 600cc bikes????

hahahahaha, that's the lamest thing I've ever heard. How pathetic is it that America still can't build a bike to truly compete with Japan in the 600cc and 1000cc categories on the street AND the track?

If Buell is so great why don't/can't they simply build a powerful enough 600cc motor to compete with???!??!?? Pathetic.

Well first off, Buell builds street bikes and THEN decides to race them for the publicity......Unlike the Japanese who build bikes with a priority on winning races as the first priority.

Also, if America wanted to, I'm sure it could build an inline 4, but of course it would be 10-15 years before it would have the quality of a Jap engine. Unless they just outsource it like they usually do :lol:

[Amber Lamps]

No problem with that because everyone switched and they all have the same type engine and size.

Beat me to it! If the entire class starts running 1125cc bikes then okay.:lol: Besides, MotoGp is a prototype class. They give you the rules and you build a bike based on what you think is the best set-up... Hmmm I4s have done pretty well in that class too, don't remember any V-twins winning lately.:lol:

[Amber Lamps]

I'm a little late to the party here but...is this thread really about Buell racing their liter bike against Japan and Italy's 600cc bikes????

hahahahaha, that's the lamest thing I've ever heard. How pathetic is it that America still can't build a bike to truly compete with Japan in the 600cc and 1000cc categories on the street AND the track?

If Buell is so great why don't/can't they simply build a powerful enough 600cc motor to compete with???!??!?? Pathetic.


Damn, my brother!:lol: Exactly my point, they go on and on about how much "better" their bike is but when it's time to prove it....:whosr:

[Rider]

Beat me to it! If the entire class starts running 1125cc bikes then okay.:lol: Besides, MotoGp is a prototype class. They give you the rules and you build a bike based on what you think is the best set-up... Hmmm I4s have done pretty well in that class too, don't remember any V-twins winning lately.:lol:

I-4 and V-4 are running in MotoGP, but they at least have the same number of cylinders and the same displacement and roughly the same HP.

[Homeslice]

I don't think it weighs more or sucks up more power. But it's quite complicated keeping the proper tension on it, that's why you can't just change pulleys. Plus iirc race starts are hard on the belt cogs.

A belt is pretty wide, and kinda thick, so I'll bet $20 it's heavier, lol.

Also what is the fastest bike with a belt? Maybe the V-Rod? How fast can it go? 150? I'd be scared to go faster than that with a belt, lol.

[Rsv1000R]

Beat me to it! If the entire class starts running 1125cc bikes then okay.:lol: Besides, MotoGp is a prototype class. They give you the rules and you build a bike based on what you think is the best set-up... Hmmm I4s have done pretty well in that class too, don't remember any V-twins winning lately.:lol:

The Ducati is a v4, and the RC211 Honda was a v5.

The first year that both 500's and 990's ran together the 990 of Rossi smoked the 500's. Aprilia tried a 3, but couldn't sort the bugs out and make the weight reduce a 3 allows work to their advantage.

And yes the rules in MotoGP gives a weight break to reducing the cylinders, because more cylinders make more hp.

[Rsv1000R]

A belt is pretty wide, and kinda thick, so I'll bet $20 it's heavier, lol.


I'll take that bet....

[Amber Lamps]

I-4 and V-4 are running in MotoGP, but they at least have the same number of cylinders and the same displacement and roughly the same HP.

Even if they didn't have the same hp, it would be up to the teams to change their set-up or get their bike up to speed. Kinda like Rossi did when he left Honda for Yamaha. Instead of being like Biaggi... man that must have hurt! He left Yam for Honda and got beat there too!:lol:

[Rsv1000R]

I thought that EB had come up with some innovative tensional system that eliminated drive line lash.:idk: Besides, race starts are just as hard on aluminum sprockets aren't they?

He did, but it's based on the pulley sizes.


And I don't know, but probably not.

[Rider]

The Ducati is a v4, and the RC211 Honda was a v5.

The first year that both 500's and 990's ran together the 990 of Rossi smoked the 500's. Aprilia tried a 3, but couldn't sort the bugs out and make the weight reduce a 3 allows work to their advantage.

And yes the rules in MotoGP gives a weight break to reducing the cylinders, because more cylinders make more hp.

Which brings up a good point. Why aren't teams building a 600cc V-8? I bet that would be a monster of a motor.

[Rsv1000R]

Which brings up a good point. Why aren't teams building a 600cc V-8? I bet that would be a monster of a motor.

Rules and packaging.

Look at the evolution of F1 engines.

Hell look at what Honda use to race... Honda_RC_series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_RC_series)