Brake line washers: safe to reuse?

[Triple]

...

[Trip]

I'd replace them. It's just a washer, cheap and easy.

[Rider]

You can probably reuse them but for the cost of a washer, just replace it.

[Particle Man]

considering the importance of the brakes, I tend to play it safe and replace them...

[BobTheBiker]

You CAN, but its not wise to do so. go down to autozone and buy a package of crush washers to replace them. I dislike reusing those unless I ABSOLUTELY MUST on any brake system.

[was92v]

um, I've never used anything but used ones unless new ones came with a line kit. And then the old ones get saved if they looked ok. But hey, that's just me.

[HRCNICK11]

Man do you guys replace the crush washer on you drain bolt all the time also?

I have reused them but I try not to.

[zed]

Man do you guys replace the crush washer on you drain bolt all the time also?

I have reused them but I try not to.

every other oil change.

[JoshuaTree]

Copper brake line 'banjo bolt' washers(*) - NO

Metal drain/fill plug washers(*) - NO

(*) The only permissible exception to this is when you're on the road, have an "issue" (e.g. accident) and need to effect emergency repairs to get to a repair facility or home.

Any questions? :rofl:

[was92v]

:lol

[marko138]

I never reused crush washers on oil drain plugs. Just not worth it. There were like 50 cents when I had the Zuk. The oil drain plug on the Buell has a rubber o-ring. I did NOT replace that last time.

As for brake washers...couldn't tell ya. Never had to deal with it. The only brake surgery I've done is installing SS lines with my buddy. His kit came with new washers.

[Gas Man]

Do you mean the copper washers?

Can re-use, as long as it looks good. You can buy new ones at the auto store.

You can also retemper them by hitting them with a torch. Can't remember why but it does something to them.

I'd replace them. It's just a washer, cheap and easy.

For banjo bolts in brake systems they aren't just regular washers. They are copper. Regular washer would leak like a siv.

[Amber Lamps]

Do you mean the copper washers?

Can re-use, as long as it looks good. You can buy new ones at the auto store.

You can also retemper them by hitting them with a torch. Can't remember why but it does something to them.



For banjo bolts in brake systems they aren't just regular washers. They are copper. Regular washer would leak like a siv.


Now that's the definitive answer gentlemen! Oh and I've reused them and I'm on the 4th oil change with my drain plug washer as well.

Copper brake line 'banjo bolt' washers(*) - NO

Metal drain/fill plug washers(*) - NO

(*) The only permissible exception to this is when you're on the road, have an "issue" (e.g. accident) and need to effect emergency repairs to get to a repair facility or home.

Any questions? :rofl:

I bet you're one of those guys that throw away a brand new tire if you get a nail in it....:lol:

[zed]

I bet you're one of those guys that throw away a brand new tire if you get a nail in it....:lol:

I've got a stack of rear tires about 6 foot tall from people like that. most of them still have nipples on them.

[Amber Lamps]

I've got a stack of rear tires about 6 foot tall from people like that. most of them still have nipples on them.

Yea I have a buddy like that, he also works at a dealership. I'll never get that. People think that you can't patch a motorcycle tire.

[zed]

Yea I have a buddy like that, he also works at a dealership. I'll never get that. People think that you can't patch a motorcycle tire.

as far as I know, it's hard to find a shop that will patch a SB tire. hell, some won't even patch a cruiser tire that has a tube.

it used to be "common" knowledge that you don't plug a SB tire because of the speeds they can hit, cornering forces.

I don't know how long those plug patches have been out but that's what I use and won't use anything else given the chance. if stuck out somewhere that I couldn't get one installed I'd use a rope plug but I'd rather have the plug patch.

I've been well over 100mph on both plug patch and a cord patch with no problems.

[JoshuaTree]

... I bet you're one of those guys that throw away a brand new tire if you get a nail in it....:lol:

:bash:

No, as a matter of fact, I don't. redflip

I am a guy who has rebuilt three motorcycles, one down to splitting the cases and installing new main and con-rod bearings. I do hold several certifications from BMW Motorrad (worked at a shop for a while, a while ago), and have worked on my own vehicles since I was able to drive (legally). :idk:

In the matter of brake line crush washers - ask yourself a simple question: Is it worth injury or death (to say nothing of resulting damage to your bike) to have brake system failure for the want and use of $0.10-0.65 parts? :poke: You've just spent $50-250 on new brake lines, bought new race-spec brake fluid (or just generic DOT whatever), can you really say that you couldn't find the money for new sealing washers for the banjo bolt fittings? Really? :tt:

Motorcycle shops don't patch tires anymore due to liability issues, not real technical function issues. Some techs just hate the job in general anyways.

Relating to oil drain/fill plugs' sealing rings/washers, if you don't mind an occasional leak / total oil loss from your engines (i.e. when the sealing ring fails and the drain plug vibrates out as a result), and really want to save that $0.25-1.00 per oil change, go right ahead. :idk:

I'd bet that there isn't a single motorcyclist that can't manage to allocate their discretionary spending such that they can always afford new sealing rings/washers for their maintenance. :poke:

Then again, WTF do I know about maintenance anyways... :rofl:

['73 H1 Triple]

Do you mean the copper washers?

Can re-use, as long as it looks good. You can buy new ones at the auto store.

You can also retemper them by hitting them with a torch. Can't remember why but it does something to them.



For banjo bolts in brake systems they aren't just regular washers. They are copper. Regular washer would leak like a siv.

Copper works hardens when tightened. Heating them with a torch and allowing to slowly cool ( do NOT quench ) makes them soft again.

Jeff

[was92v]

Like many things we do or don't do, it is up to the person doing the work, especially on his or her own bike to make the decision. If you have new washers there and feel the need to replace them, then by all means do it. Would I let not having new ones in my garage on Friday night keep me from finishing a job and going riding or racing for the weekend? Put everything on hold until I can get to a bike shop and order the correct washers, nope, but again that is just me. Our own experiences usually dictate how we react to these things and it is neither right or wrong. The first shop manager that I worked for summed it up nicely. He said, during a conversation similar to this, "There are always at least 4 ways to do something, your way, my way, the right way and the wrong way". The phrase is much more accurate than it seems.

Our own experience determines how we feel about this type of question or in the absence of that, what we have read, or been told by someone whos opinion we respect.
Or we have a situation arise that forces us to change our opinion.

As far a experience, I have mine and you have yours. I have ridden for 41 years and messed up some stuff.
I am (was) a certified MC mechanic with a degree from AMI
which is now Wyotech in Daytona. Worked as a mechanic in a Kawasaki shop and for a while in a Yamaha shop. Did a short stint as a shop manager for a Kaw shop, built 8 or 10 bikes from the bare frame up, built, maintained and rode drag bikes for 3 years, built, tuned,maintained and rode roadrace bikes for 5 years and have always done all my own maintenance on all of my street bikes and I reuse them.
In the past 41 years, I have had exactly zero failures of copper sealing washers, so my experience says to me, if it looks good, it is. Yours may say something else. Go with what you know until you need to change. Very few things in this world are really YES-NO or BLACK-WHITE. When you think about it carefully, almost everything is MAYBE-GRAY.

[Amber Lamps]

Like many things we do or don't do, it is up to the person doing the work, especially on his or her own bike to make the decision. If you have new washers there and feel the need to replace them, then by all means do it. Would I let not having new ones in my garage on Friday night keep me from finishing a job and going riding or racing for the weekend? Put everything on hold until I can get to a bike shop and order the correct washers, nope, but again that is just me. Our own experiences usually dictate how we react to these things and it is neither right or wrong. The first shop manager that I worked for summed it up nicely. He said, during a conversation similar to this, "There are always at least 4 ways to do something, your way, my way, the right way and the wrong way". The phrase is much more accurate than it seems.

Our own experience determines how we feel about this type of question or in the absence of that, what we have read, or been told by someone whos opinion we respect.
Or we have a situation arise that forces us to change our opinion.

As far a experience, I have mine and you have yours. I have ridden for 41 years and messed up some stuff.
I am (was) a certified MC mechanic with a degree from AMI
which is now Wyotech in Daytona. Worked as a mechanic in a Kawasaki shop and for a while in a Yamaha shop. Did a short stint as a shop manager for a Kaw shop, built 8 or 10 bikes from the bare frame up, built, maintained and rode drag bikes for 3 years, built, tuned,maintained and rode roadrace bikes for 5 years and have always done all my own maintenance on all of my street bikes and I reuse them.
In the past 41 years, I have had exactly zero failures of copper sealing washers, so my experience says to me, if it looks good, it is. Yours may say something else. Go with what you know until you need to change. Very few things in this world are really YES-NO or BLACK-WHITE. When you think about it carefully, almost everything is MAYBE-GRAY.

I agree, I've always done my own maintenance work (over 30 years of riding-street, dirt and a little track) and I have never had a catastrophic failure such as JT seems to fear. I don't understand what they think will happen?:idk: I mean this "the drain plug will vibrate out" nonsense is ridiculous IMHO. The worst that can happen is a leak. Now I do swap out parts when I do maintenance but I'm with you, if I don't have it I'm still going riding.:rockwoot:

I also don't understand the "my way is the only right way attitude" and if you don't do things the way I do them, you are an idiot. Btw I don't have as lofty of experiences as you guys but I did work the pit in an oil change location for a number of years and we didn't replace the drain plug washers unless they were bad. None of the o.c. places do to my knowledge. We never had a failure of the type that he described. I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that a motorcycle isn't really all that different from any other vehicle. In fact, in a lot of ways motorcycles have much less stress put on their components due to their lack of weight, etc.

[Amber Lamps]

:bash:

No, as a matter of fact, I don't. redflip

I am a guy who has rebuilt three motorcycles, one down to splitting the cases and installing new main and con-rod bearings. I do hold several certifications from BMW Motorrad (worked at a shop for a while, a while ago), and have worked on my own vehicles since I was able to drive (legally). :idk:

In the matter of brake line crush washers - ask yourself a simple question: Is it worth injury or death (to say nothing of resulting damage to your bike) to have brake system failure for the want and use of $0.10-0.65 parts? :poke: You've just spent $50-250 on new brake lines, bought new race-spec brake fluid (or just generic DOT whatever), can you really say that you couldn't find the money for new sealing washers for the banjo bolt fittings? Really? :tt:

Motorcycle shops don't patch tires anymore due to liability issues, not real technical function issues. Some techs just hate the job in general anyways.

Relating to oil drain/fill plugs' sealing rings/washers, if you don't mind an occasional leak / total oil loss from your engines (i.e. when the sealing ring fails and the drain plug vibrates out as a result), and really want to save that $0.25-1.00 per oil change, go right ahead. :idk:

I'd bet that there isn't a single motorcyclist that can't manage to allocate their discretionary spending such that they can always afford new sealing rings/washers for their maintenance. :poke:

Then again, WTF do I know about maintenance anyways... :rofl:

I'm completely surprised that a BMW owner would have this attitude...:lol: I bet that you park your bike if it has 3000 miles on it and you don't have an oil filter. Hey to each his own... man people accuse me of getting all fired up over stupid shit!:lol:

[was92v]

.... I mean this "the drain plug will vibrate out" nonsense is ridiculous IMHO...


Actually, there are a couple of areas that bikes are different. Mostly vibration, which can cause parts to vibrate out. However if the parts are installed correctly, that is threads are clean and good and the bolts are at the correct tension they will stay in place under normal circumstances. When circumstances are not normal, other measures need to be taken, such as safety wire seen on airplanes and race vehicles or a chemical thread lock if it is something that doesn't get routinely unscrewed. In the case of 2-stroke race bikes, maybe both. I almost always use a torque wrench on oil drain plugs and oil filters, as well as everything else that my life depends on.
Too little and they will vibrate loose, too much and they can crack due to vibration, or destroy the threads.
If the banjo bolt is good (I have had some of them over the years that were bad...) and properly torqued the worse that that will happen, even if the washer is hard as a rock, is a slight weeping wetness around the seal, not a sudden catastrophic failure. And even then the place to look for the problem is the banjo bolt usually. If the banjo was installed with a torque wrench you would see a "mushy" reading, or an inability to pull it to the correct number even though the threads look good. In that case look for a cracked banjo bolt. They can cause a sudden loss of pressure. Lucky that most of the time you feel it when tightening them, or the bastards just break, which is good. Then you know you have to replace it with no ambiguity.

[Amber Lamps]

Oh I didn't say there was "no difference", just that the basic principles are the same. besides I've ridden in some pretty "shaky" cars, if they don't lose bolts, nothing will.:lol: Again to each his own, I'm not trying to talk people into not replacing their washers, you know?:lol:

[JoshuaTree]

OK, in no particular order:

RE: Washers, et. al. - having SEEN and/or been a part of having several brake sealing washers "leak" (i.e. fail at their job) when re-used, I've deemed it "necessary" to replace them when I do a job on a street bike. Race bikes are a different story - you assume the risk and you choose to save the money/parts. As for not having them on hand, if you could manage to plan to buy brake lines and brake fluid, how can you not manage to add in the brake line washers. It is a matter of "insurance". If you're comfortable reusing a cheap part on brake systems, go right ahead. My sole point is that when you're considering street riding, if you need brakes and don't have them, was it wise to save the $0.50 on the brake system rebuild? Yes, normally the worst that happens is weeping brake fluid from the fitting - will you notice in time to keep the brake fluid from "eating" the finish / discoloring your rims, forks, and perhaps fairing parts near the fitting?

RE: Oil Drain Washers - I won't speak for other brands, but for BMWs, you're flirting with at least a decent oil leak if not outright drain plug loss. I've delivered the "you're fucked" message to more than one customer who reused his drain plug washers doing his own oil changes and had lost the drain plug while riding. Again, I don't know of a single person who buys oil filters without oil to do an oil change. How hard is it to also buy a washer at the same time? The factory BMW oil filter kits come with the drain plug washers. And why not just keep a set (2-3) on hand in your toolbox anyways? If a new crush washer keeps your bike from leaking (or in the "rare" case, drain plug/oil loss), how much have you saved that you'll loose in time cleaning up the leak, bike, and lost oil? I'd bet that its a lot more than the cost of the sealing washer.

RE: Using a torque wrench for tightening critical items - YES! (although, in the interest of complete disclosure, and at the risk of being branded a heretic / hypocrite, I don't use them on oil filters and drain and fill plug washers, as I have enough experience to know the correct "feel" of them tightening down to the correct sealing torque. I do use them on brake line fittings, even to the point that I have crow-foot 'sockets' for use on line fittings).

RE: Mechanical Advice - In the absence of knowing the person's experience level (i.e. are they qualified by training and/or experience) to know if its OK to reuse a specific part, I'll tell them to error on the side of DON'T, as it gives the new / fledgling mechanic the job success he/she will need to keep on the path of wrenching themselves. An early job failure - especially one that results in damage to the bike - can drive a person away from every doing such operations themselves. Quite honestly, we all spend quite a bit of "discretionary" income on our hobby/passion - motorcycling. Can any of us truly say that we couldn't scrounge the cash to buy sealing rings/washers for these operations when needed? :idk:

Sometimes, I forget that people can't realize that some of my posting(s) are :poke:

redflip

P.S. And no I don't park my bike at the exact spot it has when I cross the mileage "limit" - I usually go to the nearest parking lot and call a tow truck. :p :rofl:

[Amber Lamps]

Hey I only change my filter every other oil change, at 5,000 miles, been doing that for years. As crazy as it sounds, I've decided to take the manufacturers recommendations rather than the oil companies... :lol:

[Gas Man]

here here on not always using a torque wrench. I have 2 in the garage but on things like spark plugs, drain plugs, oil filters, etc... I do not use one. I know what the feel is.

[ceo012384]

Should you? Yes. It's a good safe measure.

Have I skipped on it and other similar things at the track to get out for a race or repair from a crash on a tight schedule? Yes.
here here on not always using a torque wrench. I have 2 in the garage but on things like spark plugs, drain plugs, oil filters, etc... I do not use one. I know what the feel is.
EVerything important on my bikes is safety wired (race requirement)... But I'd actually recommend it to folks even for street bikes.... simple things like oil drains and fills, coolant drains and fills, brake caliper bolts, axle pinch bolts, etc... Then you'll always be sure.

But yes it depends how much of a rush I'm in... I'm confident enough in my arm-torque-meter after doing a bunch of maintenance to know that if I am on a schedule, and do it as well as I can feel, it will be just fine. But if I'm just casually doing bike work without a set schedule or deadline, I will use the wrench for safety's sake.

[Kerry_129]

Copper or aluminum washers don't work-harden thru the relatively low pressure like they see in that application. Banging on them with a hammer, sure - squeezing them w/ a few hundred psi, no. They do 'gall' and develop small ridges/imperfections in the surface though. That's the reason for using a soft ductile metals, since they deform to match the adjacent surface irregularities and form a pressure-tight seal. That is where a problem can arise from reusing if the surface is already deformed to the point that it doesn't adequately 'crush' again and fails to seal.

I agree that they're so cheap that it's easiest/best to just use new ones. But in a situation where I don't have new ones handy, I simply rub both sides on a piece of fine sandpaper (press w/ a fingertip & make figure-8s) and presto! - nice fresh sealing surfaces which I'd trust every bit as much as a brand-new washer.

As far as torque-wrench use goes, I think lots of guys get carried away with the notion that it's the only way to achieve 'proper torque' and that not using one is just 'wrong' (hate to stereotype, but the BMW crowd seems to have lots of these overly-anal-but-don't-really-know-WTF-they're-talking-about types - not talking about you, JoshuaTree, but a 'spect you know what I mean :wink:). With gorilla-armed wrench-turners though, using one is a good idea - it would be more appropriate to call it an 'anti-overtorque' wrench in many cases. :lol:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s85/kerry_129/Misc/Torqueing.jpg

In many/most applications, I trust my feel/turn-of-nut method at least as much if not more than a torque wrench. :2cents:

[Trip]

As far as torque-wrench use goes, I think lots of guys get carried away with the notion that it's the only way to achieve 'proper torque' (hate to stereotype, but the BMW crowd seems to have lots of these overly-anal-but-don't-really-know-WTF-they're-talking-about types - not talking about you, JoshuaTree, but a 'spect you know what I mean).

Hey I resemble that remark now.....

That's why you need nuclear qualified torque wrenchs that get tested and recalibrated yearly. :nee:

[Kerry_129]

:lol

Hey - I think you knew what you were getting yourself into when you bought it!

'Grats on the new Panzer, BTW... :)

[askmrjesus]

P.S. And no I don't park my bike at the exact spot it has when I cross the mileage "limit" - I usually go to the nearest parking lot and call a tow truck. :p :rofl:

You laugh, but I had a guy do exactly that when his RT hit the service limit. :lol:

Fucking BMW people...


I agree that they're so cheap that it's easiest/best to just use new ones. But in a situation where I don't have new ones handy, I simply rub both sides on a piece of fine sandpaper (press w/ a fingertip & make figure-8s) and presto! - nice fresh sealing surfaces which I'd trust every bit as much as a brand-new washer.

Yep. 440 grit over a piece of glass works wonders, unless the washer has really big ridges on it, in which case I toss it.

For sealing washers (the "folded" crush washers on some drain plugs) no, they are a one time only deal.

JC

[Kerry_129]

For sealing washers (the "folded" crush washers on some drain plugs) no, they are a one time only deal.


Good point - yeah, those are a completely different one-use-only animal (and I can definitely see a re-used one causing a drainplug to back out). Of course, you can always just use an 18" breaker-bar and crank those muthas down, since you don't want that shit coming loose! :lol:

[Amber Lamps]

Good point - yeah, those are a completely different one-use-only animal (and I can definitely see a re-used one causing a drainplug to back out). Of course, you can always just use an 18" breaker-bar and crank those muthas down, since you don't want that shit coming loose! :lol:

Nah not with modern oil pans bro! That aluminum is thin and the threads get fucked rather easily... ask me how I know...:lol:

[askmrjesus]

Nah not with modern oil pans bro! That aluminum is thin and the threads get fucked rather easily... ask me how I know...:lol:

I'm pretty sure he was kidding.

Either that, or he's a Heli-Coil salesman. :lol:

JC

[Amber Lamps]

I'm pretty sure he was kidding.

Either that, or he's a Heli-Coil salesman. :lol:

JC

Oh I'm sure that he was, Kerry knows his shit! I was just playing off his joke a little....:sorry:

[Kerry_129]

Sarcasm, man, sarcasm. :wink:


I'll never forget years ago watching this guy 'help' another rider adjust his chain. When tightening the axle nut, he used an 18" breaker-bar and viced it down as tight as his arm could strain (and he was a stout guy). Watching this, my buddy (a Blackhawk crewchief/mechanic) & I exchanged the :skep: look, and he asks "So what's the torque-spec on that nut, anyway?". Mr. Gorilla-arm replies: "I dunno, I just get it as tight as I can 'cause you don't want that shit coming loose!". :?: :lol:


Edit: OK, you got it.... :) When I showed Kathy how to change her oil in the Accord, the bolt was so tight that I actually did have to put a long ratchet on it to break it loose - fukkin' Jiffy-Lube dolts.... :td:

[Amber Lamps]

Sarcasm, man, sarcasm. :wink:

I'll never forget years ago watching this guy 'help' another rider adjust his chain. When tightening the axle nut, he used an 18" breaker-bar and viced it down as tight as his arm could strain (and he was a stout guy). Watching this, my buddy (a Blackhawk crewchief/mechanic) & I exchanged the :skep: look, and he asks "So what's the torque-spec on that nut, anyway?". Mr. Gorilla-arm replies: "I dunno, I just get it as tight as I can 'cause you don't want that shit coming loose!". :?: :lol:


I knew a guy like that! His spacers were actually "mushroomed" a little!:lol:

[JoshuaTree]

You laugh, but I had a guy do exactly that when his RT hit the service limit. :lol:

Fucking BMW people...


I had a customer just about do the same - he stopped riding for the three weeks until his appointment. :bash:

I'd bet its really no different with "RUBs" and Harley Davidsons... :idk:

:bash:

:rofl:

[askmrjesus]

I'd bet its really no different with "RUBs" and Harley Davidsons... :idk:

Except that those guys never get enough miles on their bikes to actually reach a service limit. :lol:

JC

[zed]

Except that those guys never get enough miles on their bikes to actually reach a service limit. :lol:

JC

yeah, they come in with a 3 year old bike happy as hell that it's finally time for the 600 mile oil change.