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-   -   Arizona bill would deny citizenship to children of illegal immigrants (http://www.twowheelfix.com/showthread.php?t=15210)

pauldun170 06-16-2010 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa_Complex (Post 383609)
While Kavanagh is absolutely wrong about the intent of The Framers, where the concept of being born to citizenship is concerned, I think that it would be a reasonable accommodation to state that the parents must actually be in the country legally for the 14th Amendment to apply.
Family enters US on work (or education) visa.
Family works in Utah(for example) for X amount of time. Establishes residency. Wife gets knocked up and they have child.
They decide to relocate to (for better paying job) Las Vegas.
Visa expires as HR at new company is working on sponsorship.
Neither parent has commited a crime under Federal law, Utah or Nevada law.
They have established residency in Utah and are therefore citizens of Utah entitled to all applicable rights and laws. As residents of Utah they are entitled to all rights and protections afforded by the Bill of Rights (" nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. ")

They take a wrong turn and end up in Arizona on there way to Las Vegas
The parents are imprisoned. The child, who has violated nothing and is a United States citizen as defined by the United States constitution and a resident\citizen of Utah is taken from the parents, placed in the Arizona foster care system (or just put into whatever orphanage, holding tank they have down there). The parents, who never commited a crime and were legal residents of another state are deported by Arizona.

Arizona is gangsta....

This is going to be awesome to watch from a safe distance.

goof2 06-16-2010 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaneman (Post 383645)
Its probably something they considered when they decided to leave behind everything they've ever known and risk life, limb and freedom to make it to a country that, even with menial work, they have a much higher chance to have a decent quality of life in. I mean, Detroit is a shithole but I'd rather live there than Juarez.

I understand where you guys are coming from, but I can't be angry or wish ill against people who are simply trying to make it. I'm not anointing them as saints or even excuse any of the bad behavior that may be displayed when they come here (Hey Spic, our sewers here actually work in all 50 states. Flush your fucking toilet paper before I make you eat it.) But, I can see it from their point of view.

If you want to be America the great and free and all the other bullshit every politician from here to NYC spouts on a daily basis then you have to fight against discriminatory immigration policies. And if you don't want to do that you can still rally against American government policies that put other countries in dire situations, such as the war on drugs which is currently decimating northern Mexico.
I can see it from their point of view as well, but that doesn't mean they should get a free pass either. They get caught breaking our immigration laws they should be sent home. If any of their kids are legal they can either stay and be wards of the state, like any child with American citizenship without family available to take care of them, or they can go with their parents and be welcome back anytime they decide.

Our federal immigration policies aren't really designed to intentionally discriminate against brown or black. They are primarily designed to discriminate against a lack of green. With no money and little chance of significantly contributing to the taxpayer base it is going to be pretty damn difficult to enter the country legally no matter what a person's skin color is.

Mexico had plenty to do with putting themselves in their dire situation. The war on drugs may not be helping but the Mexican government has a lot more to do with their current situation.

shmike 06-16-2010 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldun170 (Post 383665)
Family enters US on work (or education) visa.
Family works in Utah(for example) for X amount of time. Establishes residency. Wife gets knocked up and they have child.
They decide to relocate to (for better paying job) Las Vegas.
Visa expires as HR at new company is working on sponsorship.
Neither parent has commited a crime under Federal law, Utah or Nevada law.
They have established residency in Utah and are therefore citizens of Utah entitled to all applicable rights and laws. As residents of Utah they are entitled to all rights and protections afforded by the Bill of Rights (" nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. ")

They take a wrong turn and end up in Arizona on there way to Las Vegas
The parents are imprisoned. The child, who has violated nothing and is a United States citizen as defined by the United States constitution and a resident\citizen of Utah is taken from the parents, placed in the Arizona foster care system (or just put into whatever orphanage, holding tank they have down there). The parents, who never commited a crime and were legal residents of another state are deported by Arizona.

Arizona is gangsta....

This is going to be awesome to watch from a safe distance.

Nice try.

Staying on an expired visa is illegal, therefore they have committed a crime. They are no longer legal residents of whichever state they came from.

It may not be intentional, it may not have been their fault but it happened.

If your visa is about to expire, you apply for an extension.

Smittie61984 06-16-2010 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaneman (Post 383645)

You speak as if loving parents in a stable environment count for nothing. Can you give specific examples of women crossing the border when they're about to bust or account for what percentage they make up of total illegal immigrants?
Yeah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_ZnX9JRo5M

goof2 06-16-2010 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmike (Post 383680)
Nice try.

Staying on an expired visa is illegal, therefore they have committed a crime. They are no longer legal residents of whichever state they came from.

It may not be intentional, it may not have been their fault but it happened.

If your visa is about to expire, you apply for an extension.
Yep. I don't know about Nevada or Utah law but simply staying past your visa is a violation of federal immigration law.

pauldun170 06-16-2010 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmike (Post 383680)
Nice try.

Staying on an expired visa is illegal, therefore they have committed a crime. They are no longer legal residents of whichever state they came from.

It may not be intentional, it may not have been their fault but it happened.

If your visa is about to expire, you apply for an extension.
OK fancy boy.

1. List the appropriate item from U.S. criminal code.

You do realise that I'm going to use the civil law card.
The only way I could use the criminal law card is if we were talking about folks busted for crossig the border.

pauldun170 06-16-2010 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by goof2 (Post 383700)
Yep. I don't know about Nevada or Utah law but simply staying past your visa is a violation of federal immigration law.
You do know that you can break a law and not be a criminal?


Criminal
The body of law dealing with crimes and their punishment

Civil
The body of laws established by a state or nation for its own regulation

Around here, if I park illegally a cajillion times. I have commited no crime.
I have violated civil code.

Papa_Complex 06-16-2010 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldun170 (Post 383665)
Family enters US on work (or education) visa.
Family works in Utah(for example) for X amount of time. Establishes residency. Wife gets knocked up and they have child.
They decide to relocate to (for better paying job) Las Vegas.
Visa expires as HR at new company is working on sponsorship.
Neither parent has commited a crime under Federal law, Utah or Nevada law.
They have established residency in Utah and are therefore citizens of Utah entitled to all applicable rights and laws. As residents of Utah they are entitled to all rights and protections afforded by the Bill of Rights (" nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. ")

They take a wrong turn and end up in Arizona on there way to Las Vegas
The parents are imprisoned. The child, who has violated nothing and is a United States citizen as defined by the United States constitution and a resident\citizen of Utah is taken from the parents, placed in the Arizona foster care system (or just put into whatever orphanage, holding tank they have down there). The parents, who never commited a crime and were legal residents of another state are deported by Arizona.

Arizona is gangsta....

This is going to be awesome to watch from a safe distance.
If the period of time they are permitted to be within the US at the time they are permitted entry is up, which isn't necessarily the length of time stated for the visa validity, then they are in the US illegally.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/info/info_1298.html

pauldun170 06-16-2010 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Papa_Complex (Post 383742)
If the period of time they are permitted to be within the US at the time they are permitted entry is up, which isn't necessarily the length of time stated for the visa validity, then they are in the US illegally.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/info/info_1298.html

Yes it is illegal \ that is unlawful.
Illegal unlawful whatever you'd like to call it.

Unlawful \ illegal means that a law has been violated.
It simply means that someone said fuck off to a law on the books.

It does NOT mean a crime has been commited.
In order for something to be a crime it must violate penal\criminal law.

To jack off round the country with an expired Visa does not touch balls with Federal criminal law. It violates civil law.
Its not a crime to park in Handicapped parking spot but it is illegal.

Papa_Complex 06-16-2010 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldun170 (Post 383752)
Yes it is illegal \ that is unlawful.
Illegal unlawful whatever you'd like to call it.

Unlawful \ illegal means that a law has been violated.
It simply means that someone said fuck off to a law on the books.

It does NOT mean a crime has been commited.
In order for something to be a crime it must violate penal\criminal law.

To jack off round the country with an expired Visa does not touch balls with Federal criminal law. It violates civil law.
Its not a crime to park in Handicapped parking spot but it is illegal.
I disagree with your semantic discussion. Breaking a law, in this case a FEDERAL law, means that a crime has been committed.


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