Trail braking?
 

Thoughts on trail braking?

I don't even know how I picked up the habit, but I do it. :confused: One of my track instructors told me it's fine if you are comfortable doing it. He told me alot of people scare themselves using the rear brake through a turn and that's why it isn't recommended.

Trail braking can be front or rear.

I'll trail brake with the front on the track.

On the street, I'll sometimes drag the rear brake on the really tight stuff if I am on a BIG touring bike.

I didn't know that... maybe I can re-train myself. :cool:

I do it. Scared myself with it once, just bought a bike used and went for a ride. Little did I know that the front brake rotors were bent as were both wheels. Didn't feel any problems until I tried to trail brake then the whole bike went into the wobbles. But I only try it with the front brake.

Which reminds me, I need to buy new brake pads

+1

I trail brake at the track with the front (trail breaking just means keeping the break applied to the apex of the turn) but try to avoid it on the street because it will amplify the affect of gravel. Fast.

It's good to be comfortable with for street riding in case a descending radius turn sneaks up on you. Or you cross state lines and the interpretation of a 25mph curve suddenly changes (see NC to VA). :lol:

That pretty much it for me as well. I do it naturally with the rear, and had to teach myself to use the front on the track as I hate using the front brake for much of anything, but like yours, my instructors have always said the same. If I am comfortable with it, go for it. I just dont tell other people about it. I've learned that it takes a different/delicate touch, and alot of folks dont get that and lock it up...

I over used the rear brake, so much so that it bit me in the ass and caused me to high side while trying to avoid a collision. I used it to get the bike settled down at corner entry on the street. I've never been on the track, so I can't comment on using it there.

you come from dirt bikes though, rae has no excuse. :lol:

I do it all the time. Almost every corner.

Mmmhmmm...Im special like that, thats all. Dont be hating cuz you like to surf on your bike versus ride it! :lol:

That's what I am scared of. :tremble:

Solution: Don't use the rear brake.

I don't think I trail brake at the track. Hell, I barely use the brakes at all and never he rear at the track or rarely on the steet.

Note: ride behind Racedoll. :wink:

No. You don't want to do that. I definitely have throttle control, but not using my brakes is hindering me from improving. I need to learn to trust them and how they feel when used under pressure.

I was kidding! I've been rear ended 3 times on a bike so....:lol: I understand your pain though, are you more concerned with front end grip? Are you having problems with too much initial bite spooking you? Do your brakes tend to fade? You are very intelligent to have braking concerns, now you just need to isolate the exact problem/concern and work on that either mentally, physically and/or mechanically. Here come the flames, but one of the best braking control exercises for me was practicing stoppies in a parking lot. It allowed me to experience and modulate exactly what happens when I got on the brakes hard. It takes a lot of the "OH SHIT" away when the rear tire comes up a little during hard breaking for a turn. Just a thought. You may just need brake lines or pads to totally turn things around and give you confidence. Which is of course exactly what you need to be a great braker!:rockwoot:

seems to me some people have a misconception of what trail braking is? its not just laying on the REAR brake, its just braking until the apex of the turn, with the front or rear brake, though IMO the rear brake isnt gonna do much if you're hard on the front brakes, maybe except settling the rear a little



i love late braking and trail braking, its as much fun passing somebody on the brakes as it is on the gas..

gotta ask why? doesnt sound safe at all as your front brake is probably like 80% of your stopping power

I am never at the speeds or intensity at which I NEED to use my front brakes, at least not on the street. I can easily and lightly apply my rear brakes for all the stopping power I need on the street unless its an emergency situation.

Racedoll, I totally feel ya. I had to force myself to use both brakes, and most of all the front on the track. Its been so long since I was at the track I am sure I'll need to retrain myself on it. Once I get warmed up and feeling it tho, its pretty awesome and I love the rush I get outta proper braking on the track, now if I could just do it EVERY time, Id see some improvement and better lap times!

Lets clarify a few things before going any further. First, trail braking is an essential skill for performance riding. There is no going fast without it. Second, trail braking MUST be either application of the front brake alone, or a combination of both brakes. Dragging the rear brake into a corner is not trail braking.

The biggest function of trail braking is load distribution upon corner entry. If you brake in a straight line, release the brakes, then turn in, you are forcing the suspension to compress, decompress, and then compress again as you turn in. This causes the chassis to be unstable and fighting the rider through the duration of the corner. Proper trail braking will allow you to compress the forks, then trade braking forces for cornering forces while keeping the chassis of the bike stable and properly loaded. As I explored the development of this skill I gained a huge respect for the ability of pro riders to use and properly control the front end of a motorcycle. It's mind boggling what capabilities are really there if you know how to use them. It's important to approach your development of this skill slowly, because it's easy to get in over your head and tuck the front end when you don't know how to ride the front wheel properly.

heh, i joined that club recently

i tend to lightly ride the rear brake, especially in slower speed turns. seems to keep the front end a little more stable and helps tighten the line

Some of these repsonses are scaring me.

NO shit, right? :tremble:

Rae, your bike is a sports bike right?
If it is this isn't a good practice for you to do. A lot of people here wouldn't really say anything if you didn't use your rear brake, I'm in the "Use both brakes all the time camp".
By using the rear brake most the time, you're building connections from your brain to your right foot. But you're not building them to your right hand at the same rate.
You have to use both brakes all the time to train your brain, until you get to the point where you don't have to think about braking, when your body memory can take over. That way when things aren't going great you have time to worry about the car or deer running in front of you and not trying to think your way through using the front brake because it is an emergency.

If your bike is a cruiser with a rearward weight bias, you do need more rear brake and less front. But you still need both to stop as short as possible with the most control.

yeah, not using the front is a good way to find yourself implanted into some car because you have no natural reaction to apply the front brakes that have most of the stopping power. Rear brake is jello, it has no stopping power.

Thanks for the input guys, I am well aware of the ramifications, how much stopping power is available from each brake, the repercussions of too much and too little, and the fear that using the rear brake causes most people. I am also aware of proper braking technique and I utilize it when/if necessary, both street and track. Think what you like of brain patterns, keeping in mind I am a woman and my brain doesnt work like yours does.

Call me stubborn, but I ride my own ride, not the ride everyone else tells me to do. :dthumb:

*also the reason I dont typically tell anyone else how to brake.

A natural reaction has nothing to do with sex. It has all to do with how you have trained your brain to respond and it's natural tendency to do what it has been taught to do. Example: letting off the gas instead of throttle neutral or gasing it out in a slide is a basic noob response under crisis because it hasn't been taught to do that.

We aren't talking emotions here.

You are human right?

There's a reason learning involves practice.......

I rarely use the rear brake unless stopping hard or on gravel. My rear brake is VERY prone to locking up even on light pressure. I probably need to adjust my brake lever. I also prefer to adjust my speed before entering curves but will trail brake with the front if additional braking is necessary

Bwahahaha, guys seriously, preach at someone else. I know how to brake. I know how to use both. Trip you saw that first hand at Suches. That was a controlled front and rear brake application for stopping when I passed the place. :lol:

Got that? FRONT AND REAR. I also use the front profusely at the track when riding at higher speeds and to attempt the techniques the Awesome referred to for proper braking. I've been over this with all of my instructors at the track and those CR's I have as personal friends and not a one of them has an issue with my use of brakes as I use them properly when needed and in emergency situations. My preference is simply that, my preference.

Exactly, that's why we are saying it. Your preference can become a natural habit. It's just better to build positive tendencies. Which is why we are saying it's good to develop natural habits to use the front. We can all learn better habits Rae, I know there are things I need to work on and that people bust on me for doing as well.

So what you are saying is that even though your "preference" or opinion goes against ALL known established principles and values, you still have a right to have it, post it and defend it on the forum? Hmmmmm..... interesting. :lol::lol::lol: Just fucking with you Rae! I will say this though, you and several others have gotten on my case for using the fact that I'm a "hoodrat" to explain why I feel or think differently than you all do... Well you're not exactly slow with the "I'm a woman so I do thinks differently" excuse.:lol:

Dont start dude, thats probably the first time I've ever used that one...everyone has the right to their own thoughts and opinions, it is the internet after all...:bunny:

What? Your own thoughts and opinions? Never.

Shhhh, we're cultivating the masses to make them think they have their own thoughts and opinions while secretly brainwashing everyone to think the same...

Oh shit, sorry. I'm gonna blow our cover.

:lol

Of course you realize that I'm going to scan previous threads.... The why women aren't top racers thread comes to mind....:lol:

Get a job. If you have a job, get some more work done.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n...untitled-1.jpg

Continue with your regularly scheduled conversating...you see nothing...

Aww come on rae, you know we are just trying to help, but you are free to do whatever you want. Ya'll make fun of me for my squiding I have done. I know what could come of it and I do it anyway. :lol:

:lol: What, you no likey my hypotizing picture?

Im not offended, I understand you guy's reasons for trying to assist, honestly these days I ride so little, its almost a moot point. Batteries dead, and packing and working take up most of my time. *sigh*

When I get the GS, I am going to come down there and chase you on it til you get on the bike and ride. LOL!

That problem, my dear, had better be resolved before I get there next spring. If it isn't, then it will be shortly after I arrive. I will be riding, and will need someone to ride with.

Which reminds me, I need to start looking for a bike to buy when I get there:whatwhat:

I didn't realize my face had moved so close to the computer till i tried to look away.

no doubt!

I think your response was directed at everyone, but I wanted to know more.

I never hear the term "trail braking" until my track instructor told me I was doing it. About 70% of the time I use my front brake BEFORE a turn to slow down. However I also use the method of using my rear brake in the turn, to kinda slide through the turn, this is trail braking?

Are both methods okay? What are the con's of trail braking?

I don't know where you went or who you worked with, but unfortunately some "instructors" are not qualified to do what they're doing. Don't necessarily assume that because someone has a vest on and talks a lot that they know what they're talking about. I've seen instructors before throwing around terminology and giving advice that was out of their realm of understanding. He may have simply seen you braking at some point while leaned over and told you that was trail braking. Of course, this is just conjecture on my part.

It depends on exactly how you're using the front. I am not a rear brake user, so I'm not going to try to tell you how to properly incorporate the rear brake into the equation. The important part is to consider what the suspension is doing during the time you're using the front brake.

When I approach most corners, I apply maximum front brake, bringing the rear of the bike to the point that it is just barely contacting the ground. The immediate goal is to get to the point that the chassis is stable and I can keep the bike right at the edge of totally raising the rear wheel. Below is a good picture to show the distribution of weight when you are close to maximum braking:

http://i43.tinypic.com/29asb5d.jpg

Note that the forks are very close to being bottomed out, and the rear shock is completely decompressed. I am anchoring myself to the bike with my lower body, and my elbows are bent and keeping weight off of the front end of the bike. This will allow for more brake application before the rear comes off of the ground.

The next thing I often do is to bring the bike slightly out of line using foot input and momentum. I like to do this right before the point of turn in to get a little head start on getting the bike turned. It's not a massive Gary McCoy style move, it's just a minor shifting of the rear wheel out of line from the front. I tend to do this on corners at the end of straights where the speeds are higher and it takes more input to make the bike turn.

At this point, I begin to turn the bike in, and I begin to trail off of the front brake as cornering forces increase. The key here is to be very sensitive to the feel of the front end, and know what the bike feels like when it approaches the limits of traction. In an ideal scenario, I want to keep the tire at the threshold of breaking traction all the way from the point that I first apply the brake to the point that I release it completely and begin to throttle out. If you have 100% tire traction available, you want the percentage being taken up by cornering and the percentage being taken up by braking to equal 100% or as close to it as you can. If you're using 60% of available traction by braking, you want to be using the other 40% for cornering. As you proceed deeper into the corner, the amount being taken by braking will decrease as you release the lever, and the cornering percentage will increase as you lean the bike and proceed through the corner. Anything below 100% would be failing to use the available traction, and anything over 100% would result in a slide that may or may not be recoverable.

Using the rear brake alone will not set the suspension correctly, but it can be incorporated into the process. Focus on what the front forks are doing when you ride. If they are decompressing between the point that you first apply the brakes and the apex of the corner, you are not trail braking correctly.

There are no cons to trail braking from a performance standpoint. The only con is that the deeper you go and the harder you push the smaller the margin of error becomes, and the amount of skill required to explore the limits of the front end increases rapidly.

That was an AWESOME POST!!!! Seriously!:rockwoot:

Very nice dude, great read.

Smartass. :lol: Thats why he gets away with calling himself "the awesome".

Hey I'm serious! Very informative, to the point and well thought out. The exact opposite of one of my posts!!!:lol:

Hey Awesome. I recognize that pic of your bike. Do you live never the Gap? If so what is your name? Are you the imfamous Tyler? Just Curious.

Ok let me put a disclaimer out here regarding the advice from the Awesome, when he says maximum he means it (think racing, or balls out on the gap), so what he is describing should be taken in the context of trying to go as fast as you can, which we know unlike him most of us do not ride to that level on the street. I seriously would love for him to work with me on my riding though! Hell on the street I'm not even sure he uses the damn brakes! I'm just saying this comes from a guy that's not letting out of it regardless of the lead he has, he only knows one way and it's fast as hell.

In other words, Michael Jordan might be able to help you out with your b-ball skills, but that's not going to make you Michael Jordan.

I agree. Thank you! :bowdown: Picture was helpful too.

Awesome - can you come to Hawaii and critique my riding? :D

Shit if you're buying he might consider it!!!:lol::lol:

That depends on whether or not you're associated with local law enforcement.

Yes. I can definitely do that. Fly me out and I'll be there directly.

I think a lot of people confuse the terms "trail braking" and "backing it in"

The awesomes last post with the pic of him was Spot On about trail braking

I just need to trust that my brakes will get me slowed down enough for the corner I want to take. It's not so much that I don't trust the bike or the brakes, it's myself that I question. I know my bike is quite capable but it's a wrong input from me that could result in an output of me.
I worked on this last year and am continuing to work on it this year. It's mainly on the back straight at Mid-Ohio that I struggle. This is partly why I can't break that 140 mark because I'm thinking about having to slow for the corners.... and before you say it, I don't think I'm that slow through them. A lot of times I catch people there but they pull me in the straights.

Brake pads I changed last year. I just put OEMs on because they are fine for me. Erik even rode the bike at the track a couple years ago and said the brakes were acceptable for me there, especially after they get warmed up. I trust his judgment.

That is exactly how I feel! I hardly use it because I don't feel like it does anything, but I do on the street every once in a while just to train my brain.

Great post THE AWESOME! And I agree, that bike looks familiar.

Well I'm no "The Awesome" but imho you are on the right track and the only thing that is going to "fix" your problem is practice. Good luck and be careful, Rome wasn't built in a day!!!

I'll get right on that. :wink:

I do ask people I trust and believe can provide good feedback to critique me. I know I have LOTS more to learn. Wish we still had a track here. Last time Evad (tdah) was here and we went riding, I asked for feedback, which he kindly provided.

I know what I'm supposed to be doing and know kind of how to do things, it's just a matter of actually DOING IT.

Yup, been practicing for too damn long though. I need to just start doing some stuff, but I can't get too impatient. I feel like I improved last year so that is all I can hope for again this year.

I used it at the rally pulling into gravel. Apparently I locked up the rear when I stopped. I didn't realize it til Shane said dude, you totally locked it up and then mjmff2?? came sliding past on the ground.

I know it does something, but it just doesn't feel like it.

I only use my rear for stopping on gravel at low speeds, and low speed parking lot turns.

Yeah, Rae, but if you'd use more front brake, you would have pulled off a rightous stoppie instead of smoking the back tire when you slid into the lodge :lol: redflip


The smoky slide was pretty cool though :dthumb: :D

As a scientist, why would I want to put braking and steering forces on only one tire by using only the front brake? I can split these two forces to two tires by using both brakes.

I hardly ever use trail braking going up a mountain. But coming downhill, I use it on almost every tight corner. I brake with both brakes before the turn, keeping them on into the apex of the turn, and accelerating out smartly. Smooth, quick, and safe.

Do you know what a switchback is? Some call it a hairpin turn. You turn 180 degrees, just like a U-turn. Lookout Mountain has at least six switchbacks. You have to brake from 50 to 15mph. And most of them are blind. You don't jam on the brakes like a racer. You squeeze both brakes smoothly before and half-way through the turn.

Ha me too!I pulled in looking at him and the front slipped so I used the rear without thinking about it. It's easier for me because back when I was taught to ride, you were taught to use both brakes and sport bikes didn't exist yet. Hell, back then I knew guys that never used the front brakes and preached against them. Some chops and modded bikes didn't even have front brakes! :lol:

That depends on the bike you ride. If you ride that thing in your avatar, you are probably better off using both brakes. If you ride a modern sportbike, you will find that proper application of the front brake will unweight the rear wheel to the point that it offers no straight line stopping power. I ride my dad's R1100R BMW from time to time, and no matter what I do I can't make it even begin to lift the rear wheel. The way the front suspension is designed combined with the geometry of the bike make it impossible to lift the rear, as it will lock up the front instead when you reach the threshold of the tire. In cases like this, both brakes must be used for maximum stopping potential.

Mr Awesome , sir, we were taught to apply the rear brake first and then the front to avoid that problem anyway... I think. Try it and tell me if I'm right that the forward shift isn't as drastic. BTW I'm sure that you are right.

I do on the track and on the street..but the street is more if you haulin ass around a sweeper and there is a line of cars as you crest the turn doing 1/3 your speed.

If you have sticky race soft tires, you would be amazed at how much force the front tire can take on the brakes in a turn.

Typical scientist. :lol: You're only looking at the hypotheticals on paper without considering the real life experience.

Once the back tire is off or skimming the ground it offers little or no stopping force.

"Jam on the brakes like a racer." :lol

Awesome, good explaination and pic. That is some serious front-end dive though. I have always had mine set up to leave 10-15mm of travel at full stop.

I'm not as cool as you guys but if I set me bike up for 10mm, I would lose the front guaranteed!!! You must have the brake control of a GOD!:idk:

Not only am I a scientist, but I'm a realist too. Compare the stopping distance of cruisers with sportbikes in the magazines. The cruisers weight 200-300 pounds more, have smaller rotors, and touring tires, but stop in the same distance. If they put sticky tires on the cruisers, they would stop quicker. Could it be that the cruiser has two wheels on the ground while stopping?

If I was on a modern sportbike braking so hard for a tight curve that my rear wheel was off the ground, I don't think I could successfully make the turn. Anyway, it doesn't take a modern sportbike to go quickly down Lookout Mountain, as some bicyclists go down quicker than many sportbikes.

Sooner or later, someone from TWF will make it out to Denver and will want to ride Lookout Mountain. I want them to know how to ride it quickly and safely.

Well we have mountains here as well, and we also have those 180 degree turns you mentioned which can vary being negative cambered, 15 mph turns etc... I do think styles can vary based upon the type of bike being ridden and what era said bike is from. Like everything else not one style will fit all riders.

One day man, one day. I am going to meet you and hopefully ride with you...holding out for the day I get an ADV capable bike suitable for a trip up there!

I will eventually take you up on that, AND I'll bring the VTX

You have to take into account the weight bias of sportbikes vrs cruisers though. Most cruisers have probably 60-70% of thier weight on the rear wheel at rest. Most modern sportbikes have 49% of thier weight on the rear at rest. When braking and the wieght transfers forward, the back tire contact on a sportbike is negligible. The cruiser still won't hit 50-50% even under braking in most cases so the rear brake helps a lot more on them.

Was this taught in the context of racing or street riding? As I said before, I never use the rear brake, so I'm not a good person to ask about what context to apply it. In straight line braking in a performance riding context, the problem I see with that is you are creating a dead spot between closing the throttle and applying the front brake if you do it that way. Even the smallest window of time without using the front will ruin your chances at hitting a correct braking point. You would have to start braking sooner than desired if you wanted to apply the rear and then the front in sequence.

Another problem I have experienced when playing with the rear brake in straight line stopping is that when the rear becomes unweighted it seemed to be harder to control the bike and keep it stable without the rear wheel spinning free. I would assume this is a result of a spinning rear wheel creating a gyroscopic effect. I also noticed that in situations where I would apply a little more front than desired and actually lift the rear completely, it would tend to want to skid abruptly rather than slide smoothly when I set it back down. This would make it much harder to hit the turn in point that I wanted, because I would be fighting to settle the bike down deep into the corner. All of this is just personal observation and interpretation, so I could be completely off base with that. My experience with the rear brake is minimal, and the experiences I had could easily have been a result of riding technique or bike setup problems that I overlooked at the time.

I thought the same thing the first time I saw pictures of myself on the brakes. I asked my suspension guy about it and he told me that unused travel is wasted travel. Just make sure that for any given track you don't ever bottom out. If you do, changes need to be made to accommodate.

I don't read bike magazines, but I have never ridden nor seen a cruiser that could stop anywhere near as quickly as a sportbike.

The faster you want to go, the more skill is required.

Unless Lookout Mountain has a bunch of Indiana Jones-esque booby traps, I'm sure it's no different than any other road. The same riding principles will always apply.

Street riding for sure! In fact this was the much touted MSF course I took in 1984...:lol: I had already "learned" to ride using cruisers and enduro bikes.

I'm sorry NW but when the racer guys, like Awesome and CEO, bust on you, I can't help but laugh my ass off!:lol:

I guess the logic in leaving a few mm to spare is making sure you don't bottom out. If you can get to full travel on the brakes that leaves no room left to absorb any bumps on corner entry. :idk:

Total agreement on all other points. There must be a reason we ran the same number. :cheers:

For those that don't understand the concept of loading the front forks with the brakes and keeping that load while cornering, I found a decent pic of tipping it in.

In a sequence this shot would be about 50-100 feet after Awesome's pic.

As the braking forces fade the lateral forces take over:

You could always just come out to the dragon and ride with a ton of us. I know it's crazy, but there is a rumor that switchbacks exist there too. OMG!

Yea I thought about that too! Maybe he's like Zeus and unable to leave his mountain of power. I swear that Lookout Mountain is the one and only place that No Worries has ever ridden!:lol:

Every time I think about that post from CEO I fucking crack up!!!:lol:

I can't really say much about that though. The only place I really feel comfortable riding fast besides the track is at the Gap.

True enough! The only places I've ever thought I was "fast" was Leonard st going to Grand Haven and Grattan Raceway.:rockwoot: