[Gas Man]

I'm always up for a debate, to be educated, and/or learn something new.

The cold facts to the best of my knowledge... please correct or narrow down better if you know better. I'm new to TC motors

• TC motors use a 5 micron filter due to their oil misters. A particle bigger could possibly clog the mister.
  
• TC motors are a high pressure low volume oil system
  
• TC paper oil filters that are more restrictive causing less oil gallons per min usually contain a bypass and a anti-drain back valve.
  
• Evo motors only need 30 micron filtering
  
• Evo motors are a low pressure high volume oil system
  
• Evo paper oil filters don't have the anti-drain back valve and it can cause some damage if present (un sure what damage or how). They also don't have oil bypassing.

Ok I believe that covers the differences between the 2 motors, their oiling systems and which filter specs are on the motor.

I believe the idea is that if you put a TC filter on a EVO. At idle the evo wouldn't be able to push oil thru the TC filter restriction so the oil would simply bypass the oil filter = bad.

If you put a EVO filter on a TC. It simply doesn't filter enough for the oil misters.

Last year I remember HD doing something new with their oil filters. For years HD had a EVO filter and a TC filter due to the differences as I stated above.

Here's the EVO only filter as listed on the HD site. I picked a random EVO bike (fat boy).
EVO Filter Part #63805-80A


Stating:

Genuine H-D® Spin-On Oil Filters consist of cured resin impregnated paper which removes harmful foreign particles from the oil. Metal end caps and thermal setting adhesive provide positive seals, preventing bypassing of contaminant-laden oil. Made in the U.S.A

Then as I said there was a TC filter. However, I can no longer link that from HD cause they came out with their new filter (using my Ultra as an example)
SuperPremium Oil Filters Part #63731-99A

Stating:

Utilizing advances in synthetic media technology, the SuperPremium Oil Filters are TEST-CERTIFIED to provide filtration to retain dust, soot and other solid matter with low internal pressure relief and anti-drain back valves. Available in black or chrome.

This product is available in multiple variations. Be sure to look for the one that fits the specific model and year of your motorcycle.

Fits all '99-later Twin Cam and Evolution models and available as an upgrade for any motorcycle that requires Oil Filter P/N 63796-77A, 63805-80A, 63812-90 or 63813-90.

An upgrade for the EVO filter I listed above.

How can this be? What is being sacrificed?

• Is it allowing oil to bypass the filter via the "low internal pressure relief" when applied to a EVO and its low pressure idle? Causing said oil to not be filtered?
  
• Did they sacrifice the 5 micron filter rating to allow a EVO to push thru it with its low pressure oil system? I highly doubt this... cause that would death sentance the TC then.
  
• Does the new superior filter have a 5 micron rating?
  
• What about the anti-drain back valve in this new superior filter? Wouldn't that do damage (what ever damage that is) to the evo?

Then if that wasn't enough to twizzler your mind. I brought into play the K&P filters. A stainless steel cleanable & re-usable oil filter. K&P states (even updated to include 2009) that the TC & EVO run the same filter, part # S4.

K&P Techinical Highlights

States many things including items below relevant to this discussion:

• Superior ASTMF316 filtration performance
• 7 times the flow of comparable paper oil filters
• Magnetic Prefiltering
• Progressive rate bypass combined with high flow characteristics of the filter media avoids unfiltered oil bypassing the filter during cold startup and high rpm
• A one inch square of this material flows an incredible 1.9 gallons of oil per minute at only 1 PSI pump pressure.

• I wonder what the conversion of that ASTM316 filtration is into micron ratings.
  
• If it is lacking in micron rating is it made up with high flow capacity there for less likely to bypass and the magnetic prefiltering?
  
• Does it contain or need a device for the anti-drain back?

Then we can throw in the other popular name... K&N

K&N Oil Filters Generic Specs

The K&N 170 is for the EVO motors

Stating very little other than:

• Anti Drain Back Valve: No
• are ‘TUV’ product endorsed and ‘TUV’ factory production monitored. This means every K&N oil filter is equal to or will exceed all OEM specifications. Our filters contain a modern synthetic filter media, designed for ultimate flow with less pressure drop, yet engineered for outstanding filtration to meet or exceed all OEM specifications.
• Cross Referenced to HD #6379677A & 6380580A (the same EVO # I listed above)

The K&N 171 is for the TC motors

Stating very little here as well:

• Anti Drain Back Valve: Yes
• are ‘TUV’ product endorsed and ‘TUV’ factory production monitored. This means every K&N oil filter is equal to or will exceed all OEM specifications. Our filters contain a modern synthetic filter media, designed for ultimate flow with less pressure drop, yet engineered for outstanding filtration to meet or exceed all OEM specifications.
• Cross Referenced to HD 6373199, 6373199A (same HD super filter listed above), 6379677A, 6379899, 6379899A, 6380580A
  (the same EVO # I listed above)
• PSI Relief Valve: 14.65

So the 171 says you can then use it on both motors. The 171 is also the only one that states it has a PSI relief valve. What about micron ratings?


WOW... talk about brain twisting...

How is HD able to run one filter for both motors?
Same goes for K&P?
Why is it that K&N still lists 2 different oil filter part numbers but cross reference they connect like the HD super filter?

That means that all three companies list the same filter for both motors and list no micron ratings or micron rating different requirements for the motors.

Being I have K&P filters on both motors (same number as indicated above), I have emailed K&P to ask for some clarification on their S4 working on both motors. I will let you know what they reply with.

Thoughts?
Insights?
Knowledge?
Links?
Confusion?

Well here's the email I sent to K&P.

Hello,
I am a many time repeat customer. I have purchase 3 or 4 of your filters for my many bikes in the past years, all being for EVOs and Sporty EVOs. Recently I purchased another S4 for my 2009 Ultra Classic with the 96CI twin cam. Now I have a gentleman on a HD forum saying that your filter doesn't filter enough for the motors misters. That the TC needs a 5 micron filtering. Anything higher will clog the misters and lead to motor problems.

I know that the EVOs at idle don't have a enough oil psi to push thru 5 micron rating filter media. So on a paper filter does the filter go into bypass? On the K&P for an evo, if it has TC filtering, how does it work with the low psi evo? Or does the S4 not filter down to 5 micron and therefor not nessicarly qualify for the twin cam micron requirement?

Can you please provide me with more information on this technical question. Something I can use to support your great product and settle my worries about filtration on my new motor.

I noticed that HD put out a TC/EVO filter called their Super Prem Filter. I'm not sure how they were able to do so. What did they sacrifice to achieve a filter that works on both applications? Is that sacrifice similar or the same for the K&P?

Sorry for so many questions but I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I appreciate your time and consideration on this matter, as a loyal customer.

Good day,
-Chris

The response from K&P

Hi Chris,
Micron rating discussions are often bantered about like fish stories. There
can be a lot of different versions presented of what is really happening.

We prefer the ASTM tests when measuring the particle size a particular
filter media will pass. ASTM testing eliminates the majority of the user
defined parameters (variables) for what we consider to be more accurate
results. The Harley filter that is advertised as 10 microns using SAE tests
actually passed 48 micron particles when run through the ASTM test. The 5
micron filter passed up to 39 microns. At 35 microns we meet or exceed the
filtration performance of the factory filters. An interesting thing to note
is that out of all the paper filters we have tested, the factory Harley
filter has performed better than most paper filters for particulate size.

The flow rate is where our filter really excels. We flow approximately 5
times more than the EVO filter, resulting in faster oil pressure at startup,
less chance of bypass operation, less back pressure against the oil pump
(potential HP gains) and better oil cooling. The reason we can get more
flow with the same filtration is due to the filter media. Cellulose or
other particles glued or pressed together don't have nearly the flow of very
small stainless steel wires woven into a filter cloth. This woven cloth
also produces more consistent filtration across the entire media, as well as
from filter to filter.

It's good you are thinking about the bypass operation in the overall
equation. After all, it doesn't matter how good the filter media is if it
doesn't flow enough to prevent the bypass from opening. Bypass operation is
a direct result of differential pressure (the difference in pressure between
the outside and inside of the filter element). We installed a gage on each
side of the filter on a pro stock motorcycle. During a pass down the track
we measured 20 lbs of differential pressure with a stock paper filter. We
measured less than 1 lb with our filter. That means a filter with a bypass
spring pressure of 15 lbs will have the bypass open. Ours, with a starting
spring pressure of 3.5 lbs, still has a 300 percent margin before the bypass
opens.

One additional thought. I have heard that the Harley engineers have been
researching the mister problem and are eyeing the paper particles that are
released from the paper filter media as a potential problem area. Cut apart
a new paper filter and rub the media surface and you'll see why they might
suspect something.

The Super Premium filter that I am aware of is the 5 micron filter and
should not be run on the Evo. It doesn't flow enough and will cause
problems with the back pressure it develops in the oiling system.

We have thousands of filters out there on Twin Cams and haven't had a
problem.

Hope all of this helps. Thanks for being a customer and for taking an
interest in oil filtration. There is a lot more to it than most people
realize.

Dave Fisher
K&P Engineering
303-507-4540
dave@kandpengineering.com
High Performance Oil Filters

I replied back

Dave,
I truely appreciate your time in answering this one guy's questioning.

Being part of the petro industry I'm well aware of the ASTM ratings on many things in my field, just not your particular spec. I tried to look it up but was having some difficulty finding a simple break down and how it relates to an oil filter.

I'm well aware of the paper filters breaking down and releasing the very paper filter into the motor that is suppose to be protecting the motor. One of the riders that spoke praise of the K&P filter years ago, said that after 30k on his evo when he switched to the K&P and was finding paper media in his K&P for about 3 oil changes. I may have to do this on the next paper filter oil change I do on a buds bike just to show them and get some pictures for more proof.

So out of all the other paper media filters the HD filters work the best but still lack seriously in their filtering. So the newest HD super prem filter being their best 5 micron filter is the one you are saying only filters to 39 microns?

I'm with ya on not running a TC filter on a EVO and wonder why HD would recommend it. I see a great deal of filter bypassing happening with that type of application.

I appreciate the insight on the bypassing function. I knew it was something of that sort.

At the end of the day the K&P filters 35 microns and that is a constant filtration that isn't restricted by the downfalls of the paper media. The reason why the K&P can work on both a TC and EVO is because of its superior flow rates, correct?

Can you answer my final few questions above. Does it sound like I have my head on straight with this? If you want, register and post on the link I put above. I will copy/paste your response but it may be better to come straight from the source.

Good Day & Thanks Again!
-Chris

Well there it is... As I said, I know many who have seen the paper media pieces in their K&P mesh at the time of oil changes. It does make me feel a bit better after some doubt was casted around these parts.

What do you guys think?

And yet another response.

Test number is ASTMF316

If you do take pictures of the paper debris being filtered out please send
me a copy and I will add it to our web site as independent testing. We can
test all day long, but it is still testing we are sponsoring and as such
should be viewed with the same scrutiny as other manufacturers data.

I wouldn't say the HD filters are lacking on the filtration. Most paper oil
filters return results in the 50-90 micron range. This is inclusive of
automotive filters. Remember, 50 microns is pretty small stuff. A white
blood cell is around 25 microns, cigarette smoke is 10 microns.... If
these weren't sufficient filtration levels there would be a lot of internal
combustion engine failures.

The reason our filter can be used on both the EVO and Twin Cam applications
is they meet or exceed the filtration of the Twin Cam (which has very
restricted flow) and flow many times more than the EVO (which doesn't filter
as fine as the Twin Cam but flows more). We provide the best of both
worlds.

One final note: After a very long process of testing, quality assurance and
process validation our filters have been awarded FAA certification. You are
running the same filters that have passed this certification.

I have also emailed K&N about their 170 vs 171