Which scenario breeds the better rider?

[OreoGaborio]

Originally Posted by Tmall

The only reason I would agree with this is because a msf coach would likely be riding for a few years before they start to teach.

Aside from shoulder checks, what did you learn at msf to make you a safer rider that isn't common sense? Even the shoulder checks are..

MSF teaches you very basic skills. And I agree with not giving discounts for it. Do you get a discount for your car for doing a parking lot course in it? If they were to take you on the street and give you real experience, then I would agree.

Yeah, you're absolutely right about it being all common sense stuff. Street survival is 90% mental & a lot of it is stuff you think people would know already. I think you'd be surprised though, about how little of the overall riding population, especially people coming in and taking the course who have never ridden a motorcycle, actually think about all the mental lessons, the mental street survival stuff... the margin of safety, risk management, responsible riding, etc etc, really THINK about it & LIVE it most every time they get on a bike. I've even had some old veteran riders take the course after taking a long time off & say things like "wow, never though about ____ that way".

So to answer your question, I think a lot of what people get out of the MSF course is that intangible mental stuff.

And you're right, it'd be great to take students out on the street and teach them the stuff in real life, but unforuntately I think that would be virtually a logistical impossibility.

Anyway, I've only been coaching the course for a year so I'm still a rookie coach, but having gone through all of the training and having taught a few classes, it's amazing how much more there is to both the course and riding than meets the eye... I've learned SO much since my training back in March and I'm excited about how much more there is to learn still... not just about coaching the course, but my own riding, other people's riding, working with other coaches, coaching the students, and just the overall big picture of the "riding world" in general.

[/blabbering]

Skill wise, I completely agree with you, it only teaches you the basic stuff. And I see the training class insurance discount mainly as an incentive for taking the course... but I appreciate it as such, as I think the course is beneficial in one way or another for most everyone that takes it, even those that come in with some riding experience, because we do hit on that mental aspect of riding. How much of it actually sinks in though, that's a different story

And that brings me to the original point I was getting at (& I've gotten totally off the original topic here but I appreciate a good discussion on the subject!) is I still believe, when you look at the big picture, that your average MSF RiderCoach is still much less likely to get in an accident than a fresh out of MSF grad... not just because of physical skill, or because we've been riding a few years, but the mental experience and insight you get through coaching as well... and I think coaches deserve a little discount, too.



Okay, I'll shut up, now

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Yeah, you're absolutely right about it being all common sense stuff. Street survival is 90% mental & a lot of it is stuff you think people would know already. I think you'd be surprised though, about how little of the overall riding population, especially people coming in and taking the course who have never ridden a motorcycle, actually think about all the mental lessons, the mental street survival stuff... the margin of safety, risk management, responsible riding, etc etc, really THINK about it & LIVE it most every time they get on a bike. I've even had some old veteran riders take the course after taking a long time off & say things like "wow, never though about ____ that way".

So to answer your question, I think a lot of what people get out of the MSF course is that intangible mental stuff.

And you're right, it'd be great to take students out on the street and teach them the stuff in real life, but unforuntately I think that would be virtually a logistical impossibility.

Anyway, I've only been coaching the course for a year so I'm still a rookie coach, but having gone through all of the training and having taught a few classes, it's amazing how much more there is to both the course and riding than meets the eye... I've learned SO much since my training back in March and I'm excited about how much more there is to learn still... not just about coaching the course, but my own riding, other people's riding, working with other coaches, coaching the students, and just the overall big picture of the "riding world" in general.

[/blabbering]

Skill wise, I completely agree with you, it only teaches you the basic stuff. And I see the training class insurance discount mainly as an incentive for taking the course... but I appreciate it as such, as I think the course is beneficial in one way or another for most everyone that takes it, even those that come in with some riding experience, because we do hit on that mental aspect of riding. How much of it actually sinks in though, that's a different story

And that brings me to the original point I was getting at (& I've gotten totally off the original topic here but I appreciate a good discussion on the subject!) is I still believe, when you look at the big picture, that your average MSF RiderCoach is still much less likely to get in an accident than a fresh out of MSF grad... not just because of physical skill, or because we've been riding a few years, but the mental experience and insight you get through coaching as well... and I think coaches deserve a little discount, too.



Okay, I'll shut up, now

There are some mechanical fundamentals taught in MSF that are not "common sense".

I can't tell you how many people are "still afraid of using the front brake". No one told them about the 70/30 rule.

I see people every day trying to turn their motorcycle by "turning the handlebars".

There are many riders I see every week with obvious procedural errors that an MSF course would have corrected.

Many riders I see couldn't "ride the box" if you held a gun to their heads.


I have no doubt that MSF provides better, safer riders.

[OreoGaborio]

I agree, a lot of the skill stuff is not common sense.

[Homeslice]

MSF is fine, but you get zero experience riding in traffic.

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

MSF is fine, but you get zero experience riding in traffic.

The MSF doesn't make you a "good" rider any more than passing your driver's test makes you a "good" driver.

Experience MUST be gained in the real world. That said, I do believe that a training course provides a better foundation to build those skills on than none at all.

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by FT BSTRD

The MSF doesn't make you a "good" rider any more than passing your driver's test makes you a "good" driver.

Experience MUST be gained in the real world. That said, I do believe that a training course provides a better foundation to build those skills on than none at all.

I think a better comparison would be if you paid for drivers ed, and they took you round and round a parking lot, would you feel that your money was well spent?

I know the msf up here is 440 for the weekend. Drivers ed isn't that much more expensive, and you gain a lot of knowledge from drivers ed. How hard would it be to make something comparable?

[FT BSTRD]

Originally Posted by Tmall

I think a better comparison would be if you paid for drivers ed, and they took you round and round a parking lot, would you feel that your money was well spent?

I know the msf up here is 440 for the weekend. Drivers ed isn't that much more expensive, and you gain a lot of knowledge from drivers ed. How hard would it be to make something comparable?

I think you are missing the point. Drivers ed has a very different intent than MSF.

MSF assumes you have people who already have their driver's license and understand the rules of the road. Driver's ed is mainly for people obtaining their driver's license for the first time. You MUST drive on the street for Driver's ed because the goal is to prepare you for release onto the road with zero practical experience.

As I'm sure you'll concede, operating a motorcycle is VERY different than operating a car. The MSF course is designed to teach those factors that are unique to motorcycles. How they work, best practices, unique mechanical attributes.

How would one practice panic stops in traffic?

How would one practice riding in the box on public streets?

Additionally, there is the issue of legality. You couldn't have 30 motorcycle riders riding someone else's motorcycles without a license on public streets.

For what can be done and what it offers, the MSF course is pretty damn good. It isn't the last word in rider education, but it's a really great start.

It's the first step in being a life long student of the art.

Or you could just borrow your buddy's bike, go down to the license place after you've ridden around in a parking lot by yourself and pass the test.

After you have your license, you don't really need to do any training.

[Tmall]

Originally Posted by FT BSTRD

I think you are missing the point. Drivers ed has a very different intent than MSF.

MSF assumes you have people who already have their driver's license and understand the rules of the road. Driver's ed is mainly for people obtaining their driver's license for the first time. You MUST drive on the street for Driver's ed because the goal is to prepare you for release onto the road with zero practical experience.

As I'm sure you'll concede, operating a motorcycle is VERY different than operating a car. The MSF course is designed to teach those factors that are unique to motorcycles. How they work, best practices, unique mechanical attributes.

How would one practice panic stops in traffic?

How would one practice riding in the box on public streets?

Additionally, there is the issue of legality. You couldn't have 30 motorcycle riders riding someone else's motorcycles without a license on public streets.

For what can be done and what it offers, the MSF course is pretty damn good. It isn't the last word in rider education, but it's a really great start.

It's the first step in being a life long student of the art.

Or you could just borrow your buddy's bike, go down to the license place after you've ridden around in a parking lot by yourself and pass the test.

After you have your license, you don't really need to do any training.

And I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying.

My original point was and still is, that msf graduates do not deserve an insurance break for completing the course. And I do not feel that the instructors do either. It is not a special skill set. It teaches you the basics.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally Posted by Homeslice

MSF is fine, but you get zero experience riding in traffic.

Yeah, but I've still seen multi-vehicle accidents on the riding range, so that's gotta count for somethin, right?

[OreoGaborio]

Fat, well said. I couldn't agree more.


Tmall, I'm not saying you're not making a good point, it's definitely an interesting perspective,holds weight and something to think about... but driving school to riding school, they're like apples and oranges in many ways. It's a virtual impossibility to do many things in the MSF that they can do in driving school.

For starters, you can put dual controls in a car so the Instructor can take over in the event of an emergency.... Even if you did that on a bike, you can't put an instructor on the back of a motorcycle with a student. And the logistics of bringing motorcycle students out onto the street would be an absolute nightmare. A lot of these MSF GRADUATES don't even belong on the street after finishing the course, nevermind DURING the course. We tell them that accordingly and always, no matter who they are, suggest extended learning opportunities.

How long ago was it that you participated in an MSF class? I'll concede that the classroom portion is only 5 hours, but there's a LOT of knowledge packed into that as well. So if you're looking at the knowledge gained, I think the two schools are quite comparable.