Brake line washers: safe to reuse? - Page 3

Amber Lamps · 07-18-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshuaTree

No, as a matter of fact, I don't.

I am a guy who has rebuilt three motorcycles, one down to splitting the cases and installing new main and con-rod bearings. I do hold several certifications from BMW Motorrad (worked at a shop for a while, a while ago), and have worked on my own vehicles since I was able to drive (legally).

In the matter of brake line crush washers - ask yourself a simple question: Is it worth injury or death (to say nothing of resulting damage to your bike) to have brake system failure for the want and use of $0.10-0.65 parts?

You've just spent $50-250 on new brake lines, bought new race-spec brake fluid (or just generic DOT whatever), can you really say that you couldn't find the money for new sealing washers for the banjo bolt fittings? Really?

Motorcycle shops don't patch tires anymore due to liability issues, not real technical function issues. Some techs just hate the job in general anyways.

Relating to oil drain/fill plugs' sealing rings/washers, if you don't mind an occasional leak / total oil loss from your engines (i.e. when the sealing ring fails and the drain plug vibrates out as a result), and really want to save that $0.25-1.00 per oil change, go right ahead.

I'd bet that there isn't a single motorcyclist that can't manage to allocate their discretionary spending such that they can always afford new sealing rings/washers for their maintenance.

Then again, WTF do I know about maintenance anyways...

I'm completely surprised that a BMW owner would have this attitude...

I bet that you park your bike if it has 3000 miles on it and you don't have an oil filter. Hey to each his own... man people accuse me of getting all fired up over stupid shit!

was92v · 07-18-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TIGGER

.... I mean this "the drain plug will vibrate out" nonsense is ridiculous IMHO...

Actually, there are a couple of areas that bikes are different. Mostly vibration, which can cause parts to vibrate out. However if the parts are installed correctly, that is threads are clean and good and the bolts are at the correct tension they will stay in place under normal circumstances. When circumstances are not normal, other measures need to be taken, such as safety wire seen on airplanes and race vehicles or a chemical thread lock if it is something that doesn't get routinely unscrewed. In the case of 2-stroke race bikes, maybe both. I almost always use a torque wrench on oil drain plugs and oil filters, as well as everything else that my life depends on.
Too little and they will vibrate loose, too much and they can crack due to vibration, or destroy the threads.
If the banjo bolt is good (I have had some of them over the years that were bad...) and properly torqued the worse that that will happen, even if the washer is hard as a rock, is a slight weeping wetness around the seal, not a sudden catastrophic failure. And even then the place to look for the problem is the banjo bolt usually. If the banjo was installed with a torque wrench you would see a "mushy" reading, or an inability to pull it to the correct number even though the threads look good. In that case look for a cracked banjo bolt. They can cause a sudden loss of pressure. Lucky that most of the time you feel it when tightening them, or the bastards just break, which is good. Then you know you have to replace it with no ambiguity.

Amber Lamps · 07-18-2009, 05:06 PM

Oh I didn't say there was "no difference", just that the basic principles are the same. besides I've ridden in some pretty "shaky" cars, if they don't lose bolts, nothing will.

Again to each his own, I'm not trying to talk people into not replacing their washers, you know?

JoshuaTree · 07-19-2009, 07:53 PM

OK, in no particular order:

RE: Washers, et. al. - having SEEN and/or been a part of having several brake sealing washers "leak" (i.e. fail at their job) when re-used, I've deemed it "necessary" to replace them when I do a job on a street bike. Race bikes are a different story - you assume the risk and you choose to save the money/parts. As for not having them on hand, if you could manage to plan to buy brake lines and brake fluid, how can you not manage to add in the brake line washers. It is a matter of "insurance". If you're comfortable reusing a cheap part on brake systems, go right ahead. My sole point is that when you're considering street riding, if you need brakes and don't have them, was it wise to save the $0.50 on the brake system rebuild? Yes, normally the worst that happens is weeping brake fluid from the fitting - will you notice in time to keep the brake fluid from "eating" the finish / discoloring your rims, forks, and perhaps fairing parts near the fitting?

RE: Oil Drain Washers - I won't speak for other brands, but for BMWs, you're flirting with at least a decent oil leak if not outright drain plug loss. I've delivered the "you're fucked" message to more than one customer who reused his drain plug washers doing his own oil changes and had lost the drain plug while riding. Again, I don't know of a single person who buys oil filters without oil to do an oil change. How hard is it to also buy a washer at the same time? The factory BMW oil filter kits come with the drain plug washers. And why not just keep a set (2-3) on hand in your toolbox anyways? If a new crush washer keeps your bike from leaking (or in the "rare" case, drain plug/oil loss), how much have you saved that you'll loose in time cleaning up the leak, bike, and lost oil? I'd bet that its a lot more than the cost of the sealing washer.

RE: Using a torque wrench for tightening critical items - YES! (although, in the interest of complete disclosure, and at the risk of being branded a heretic / hypocrite, I don't use them on oil filters and drain and fill plug washers, as I have enough experience to know the correct "feel" of them tightening down to the correct sealing torque. I do use them on brake line fittings, even to the point that I have crow-foot 'sockets' for use on line fittings).

RE: Mechanical Advice - In the absence of knowing the person's experience level (i.e. are they qualified by training and/or experience) to know if its OK to reuse a specific part, I'll tell them to error on the side of DON'T, as it gives the new / fledgling mechanic the job success he/she will need to keep on the path of wrenching themselves. An early job failure - especially one that results in damage to the bike - can drive a person away from every doing such operations themselves. Quite honestly, we all spend quite a bit of "discretionary" income on our hobby/passion - motorcycling. Can any of us truly say that we couldn't scrounge the cash to buy sealing rings/washers for these operations when needed?

Sometimes, I forget that people can't realize that some of my posting(s) are

P.S. And no I don't park my bike at the exact spot it has when I cross the mileage "limit" - I usually go to the nearest parking lot and call a tow truck.

Amber Lamps · 07-19-2009, 08:02 PM

Hey I only change my filter every other oil change, at 5,000 miles, been doing that for years. As crazy as it sounds, I've decided to take the manufacturers recommendations rather than the oil companies...

Gas Man · 07-20-2009, 12:18 AM

here here on not always using a torque wrench. I have 2 in the garage but on things like spark plugs, drain plugs, oil filters, etc... I do not use one. I know what the feel is.

ceo012384 · 07-20-2009, 10:34 PM

Should you? Yes. It's a good safe measure.

Have I skipped on it and other similar things at the track to get out for a race or repair from a crash on a tight schedule? Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gas Man

here here on not always using a torque wrench. I have 2 in the garage but on things like spark plugs, drain plugs, oil filters, etc... I do not use one. I know what the feel is.

EVerything important on my bikes is safety wired (race requirement)... But I'd actually recommend it to folks even for street bikes.... simple things like oil drains and fills, coolant drains and fills, brake caliper bolts, axle pinch bolts, etc... Then you'll always be sure.

But yes it depends how much of a rush I'm in... I'm confident enough in my arm-torque-meter after doing a bunch of maintenance to know that if I am on a schedule, and do it as well as I can feel, it will be just fine. But if I'm just casually doing bike work without a set schedule or deadline, I will use the wrench for safety's sake.

Kerry_129 · 07-21-2009, 08:39 AM

Copper or aluminum washers don't work-harden thru the relatively low pressure like they see in that application. Banging on them with a hammer, sure - squeezing them w/ a few hundred psi, no. They do 'gall' and develop small ridges/imperfections in the surface though. That's the reason for using a soft ductile metals, since they deform to match the adjacent surface irregularities and form a pressure-tight seal. That is where a problem can arise from reusing if the surface is already deformed to the point that it doesn't adequately 'crush' again and fails to seal.

I agree that they're so cheap that it's easiest/best to just use new ones. But in a situation where I don't have new ones handy, I simply rub both sides on a piece of fine sandpaper (press w/ a fingertip & make figure-8s) and presto! - nice fresh sealing surfaces which I'd trust every bit as much as a brand-new washer.

As far as torque-wrench use goes, I think lots of guys get carried away with the notion that it's the only way to achieve 'proper torque' and that not using one is just 'wrong' (hate to stereotype, but the BMW crowd seems to have lots of these overly-anal-but-don't-really-know-WTF-they're-talking-about types - not talking about you, JoshuaTree, but a 'spect you know what I mean

). With gorilla-armed wrench-turners though, using one is a good idea - it would be more appropriate to call it an 'anti-overtorque' wrench in many cases.

In many/most applications, I trust my feel/turn-of-nut method at least as much if not more than a torque wrench.

Trip · 07-21-2009, 08:43 AM

Quote:

As far as torque-wrench use goes, I think lots of guys get carried away with the notion that it's the only way to achieve 'proper torque' (hate to stereotype, but the BMW crowd seems to have lots of these overly-anal-but-don't-really-know-WTF-they're-talking-about types - not talking about you, JoshuaTree, but a 'spect you know what I mean).

Hey I resemble that remark now.....

That's why you need nuclear qualified torque wrenchs that get tested and recalibrated yearly.

Kerry_129 · 07-21-2009, 08:47 AM

Hey - I think you knew what you were getting yourself into when you bought it!

'Grats on the new Panzer, BTW...

07-19-2009, 07:53 PM	#24
JoshuaTree DILLIGAF? Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Austin, Texas, USA, Earth, Sol, Western Spiral Arm, Milky Way Moto: 1993 K75SA Posts: 483	OK, in no particular order: RE: Washers, et. al. - having SEEN and/or been a part of having several brake sealing washers "leak" (i.e. fail at their job) when re-used, I've deemed it "necessary" to replace them when I do a job on a street bike. Race bikes are a different story - you assume the risk and you choose to save the money/parts. As for not having them on hand, if you could manage to plan to buy brake lines and brake fluid, how can you not manage to add in the brake line washers. It is a matter of "insurance". If you're comfortable reusing a cheap part on brake systems, go right ahead. My sole point is that when you're considering street riding, if you need brakes and don't have them, was it wise to save the $0.50 on the brake system rebuild? Yes, normally the worst that happens is weeping brake fluid from the fitting - will you notice in time to keep the brake fluid from "eating" the finish / discoloring your rims, forks, and perhaps fairing parts near the fitting? RE: Oil Drain Washers - I won't speak for other brands, but for BMWs, you're flirting with at least a decent oil leak if not outright drain plug loss. I've delivered the "you're fucked" message to more than one customer who reused his drain plug washers doing his own oil changes and had lost the drain plug while riding. Again, I don't know of a single person who buys oil filters without oil to do an oil change. How hard is it to also buy a washer at the same time? The factory BMW oil filter kits come with the drain plug washers. And why not just keep a set (2-3) on hand in your toolbox anyways? If a new crush washer keeps your bike from leaking (or in the "rare" case, drain plug/oil loss), how much have you saved that you'll loose in time cleaning up the leak, bike, and lost oil? I'd bet that its a lot more than the cost of the sealing washer. RE: Using a torque wrench for tightening critical items - YES! (although, in the interest of complete disclosure, and at the risk of being branded a heretic / hypocrite, I don't use them on oil filters and drain and fill plug washers, as I have enough experience to know the correct "feel" of them tightening down to the correct sealing torque. I do use them on brake line fittings, even to the point that I have crow-foot 'sockets' for use on line fittings). RE: Mechanical Advice - In the absence of knowing the person's experience level (i.e. are they qualified by training and/or experience) to know if its OK to reuse a specific part, I'll tell them to error on the side of DON'T, as it gives the new / fledgling mechanic the job success he/she will need to keep on the path of wrenching themselves. An early job failure - especially one that results in damage to the bike - can drive a person away from every doing such operations themselves. Quite honestly, we all spend quite a bit of "discretionary" income on our hobby/passion - motorcycling. Can any of us truly say that we couldn't scrounge the cash to buy sealing rings/washers for these operations when needed? Sometimes, I forget that people can't realize that some of my posting(s) are P.S. And no I don't park my bike at the exact spot it has when I cross the mileage "limit" - I usually go to the nearest parking lot and call a tow truck. __________________ "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" "Learn to do the counter-intuitive things that may one day save your ass..." "... Love Much, Laugh Often..." - Amanda Kay Corso (January 18, 1980 - April 15, 2008)

07-20-2009, 12:18 AM	#26
Gas Man Trip's Assistant Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Imported from Detroit Moto: 2009 HD Street Classic Posts: 12,149	here here on not always using a torque wrench. I have 2 in the garage but on things like spark plugs, drain plugs, oil filters, etc... I do not use one. I know what the feel is. __________________ -Chris "Why pay somebody else to fuck up your bike?" Run Amsoil Product

07-21-2009, 08:39 AM	#28
Kerry_129 Semi-reformed Squid Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 531	Copper or aluminum washers don't work-harden thru the relatively low pressure like they see in that application. Banging on them with a hammer, sure - squeezing them w/ a few hundred psi, no. They do 'gall' and develop small ridges/imperfections in the surface though. That's the reason for using a soft ductile metals, since they deform to match the adjacent surface irregularities and form a pressure-tight seal. That is where a problem can arise from reusing if the surface is already deformed to the point that it doesn't adequately 'crush' again and fails to seal. I agree that they're so cheap that it's easiest/best to just use new ones. But in a situation where I don't have new ones handy, I simply rub both sides on a piece of fine sandpaper (press w/ a fingertip & make figure-8s) and presto! - nice fresh sealing surfaces which I'd trust every bit as much as a brand-new washer. As far as torque-wrench use goes, I think lots of guys get carried away with the notion that it's the only way to achieve 'proper torque' and that not using one is just 'wrong' (hate to stereotype, but the BMW crowd seems to have lots of these overly-anal-but-don't-really-know-WTF-they're-talking-about types - not talking about you, JoshuaTree, but a 'spect you know what I mean ). With gorilla-armed wrench-turners though, using one is a good idea - it would be more appropriate to call it an 'anti-overtorque' wrench in many cases. In many/most applications, I trust my feel/turn-of-nut method at least as much if not more than a torque wrench. Last edited by Kerry_129; 07-21-2009 at 08:45 AM..

07-18-2009, 05:06 PM	#23
Amber Lamps Moto GP Star Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 14,556	Oh I didn't say there was "no difference", just that the basic principles are the same. besides I've ridden in some pretty "shaky" cars, if they don't lose bolts, nothing will. Again to each his own, I'm not trying to talk people into not replacing their washers, you know?

07-19-2009, 08:02 PM	#25
Amber Lamps Moto GP Star Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 14,556	Hey I only change my filter every other oil change, at 5,000 miles, been doing that for years. As crazy as it sounds, I've decided to take the manufacturers recommendations rather than the oil companies...

07-21-2009, 08:47 AM	#30
Kerry_129 Semi-reformed Squid Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 531	Hey - I think you knew what you were getting yourself into when you bought it! 'Grats on the new Panzer, BTW...